opinion - what does this behaviour mean?

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

I'm trying to do better at my "interpersonal judgements" when forming close connections.  So I'd like to get some opinions on the behaviour of someone I am considering going into business with (and that's a really, really key relationship in life!).

Here is the background, in bullet-points:

• I knew this guy as a work colleague a decade ago.  He and I worked as a two-person team for about 18 months.  I wouldn't have called him a confidante, but we were fairly close for workmates.  I found him to be hard-working, ethical, easy to get on with, but easily angered by the actions of others.  (The anger was never directed at me, even when we disagreed about something.)

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• Given that I'm several years older, I get the feeling he saw me as a big-brother figure.

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• I was aware that he suffered emotional damage from his childhood.  Over drinks one evening, he told me some stories about his mother, who frankly sounded batsh!t-crazy-unstable.  He is completely estranged from her, but remains reasonably close to his father.  There was also a time when he mentioned some conflict with another colleague, which seemed to have upset him.  I responded with "Don't take it to heart, I think you are a thoroughly nice guy".  He burst into tears, which shocked me - I guess he wasn't used to getting positive feedback from others.

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• We lost touch after I moved overseas, but once I got back I called him up.

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• What I do & what he does are very complementary, and his small business has a few clients that I could help a lot with.  He came up with the idea of going into business together.

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• Over dinner & drinks this week, we had a very frank conversation about the pro's and con's of going into business (eg: I don't want to do as much work-travel as he does, and I worry that an imbalance in that area could cause resentment down the track).  He seems open to discussing potential problems like that, which I take as a good sign.

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• At one point, I asked him about his parent's health, and he said that he had tried to reconnect with his mother, and found her to be unchanged.  I responded by asking if he knew what BPD is, and that there are online communities to help someone coping with a parent like that.  He then blindsided me by saying "yeah, I once saw a shrink for anxiety, and the guy diagnosed me as having BPD too".  Having had my own significant exposure to BPD, and read a hundred stories on this site, I would have to say that I never saw those kind of behaviours.  Unnecessary hostility to people at times (when a few deep breaths would have been wiser) but not the impromptu-crazy-rages that characterise BPD.   What I think he does have (like so many people) is residual PTSD from an emotionally neglectful/abusive childhood, and a reluctance to get close to others as a result.  But I'm keen to hear others' opinions on that.

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• The one behaviour he does exhibit which troubles me, is his need to talk about others he's had conflict with, in very disparaging terms.  These anecdotes always conclude with his own story of victory over the other person, and (in his mind, but often not in reality) their grovelling apology and acknowledgement that they were totally in the wrong and he was totally right.  As soon as one of these stories started, I used to cringe and think "oh no, not another one".  I don't understand why he feels the need to justify himself so strongly after those situations, nor whether the story is primarily aimed at convincing me or himself.

So there it is.  I'm now 50, and finding employment in a crowded field is not easy at my age.  I do have a job, but it's physically demanding and I'm getting a bit old for such heavy work.  If this business was a success, it could potentially take me through to retirement with a good income.    (I'll add that I am a lot better at diplomacy than he is, so I would need to make sure that I was closely involved in relationships with suppliers and clients.  And the good-cop/bad-cop thing can actually have its advantages at times.)

So basically ... .do you think these flags are really serious red ones, or do you get the feeling they are manageable?  Because a business is a lot easier to get into than out of if things go wrong... .

[mousemat]

I'm trying to do better at my "interpersonal judgements" when forming close connections.  So I'd like to get some opinions on the behaviour of someone I am considering going into business with (and that's a really, really key relationship in life!).

Here is the background, in bullet-points:

• I knew this guy as a work colleague a decade ago.  He and I worked as a two-person team for about 18 months.  I wouldn't have called him a confidante, but we were fairly close for workmates.  I found him to be hard-working, ethical, easy to get on with, but easily angered by the actions of others.  (The anger was never directed at me, even when we disagreed about something.)

-

• Given that I'm several years older, I get the feeling he saw me as a big-brother figure.

-

• I was aware that he suffered emotional damage from his childhood.  Over drinks one evening, he told me some stories about his mother, who frankly sounded batsh!t-crazy-unstable.  He is completely estranged from her, but remains reasonably close to his father.  There was also a time when he mentioned some conflict with another colleague, which seemed to have upset him.  I responded with "Don't take it to heart, I think you are a thoroughly nice guy".  He burst into tears, which shocked me - I guess he wasn't used to getting positive feedback from others.

-

• We lost touch after I moved overseas, but once I got back I called him up.

-

• What I do & what he does are very complementary, and his small business has a few clients that I could help a lot with.  He came up with the idea of going into business together.

-

• Over dinner & drinks this week, we had a very frank conversation about the pro's and con's of going into business (eg: I don't want to do as much work-travel as he does, and I worry that an imbalance in that area could cause resentment down the track).  He seems open to discussing potential problems like that, which I take as a good sign.

-

• At one point, I asked him about his parent's health, and he said that he had tried to reconnect with his mother, and found her to be unchanged.  I responded by asking if he knew what BPD is, and that there are online communities to help someone coping with a parent like that.  He then blindsided me by saying "yeah, I once saw a shrink for anxiety, and the guy diagnosed me as having BPD too".  Having had my own significant exposure to BPD, and read a hundred stories on this site, I would have to say that I never saw those kind of behaviours.  Unnecessary hostility to people at times (when a few deep breaths would have been wiser) but not the impromptu-crazy-rages that characterise BPD.   What I think he does have (like so many people) is residual PTSD from an emotionally neglectful/abusive childhood, and a reluctance to get close to others as a result.  But I'm keen to hear others' opinions on that.

-

• The one behaviour he does exhibit which troubles me, is his need to talk about others he's had conflict with, in very disparaging terms.  These anecdotes always conclude with his own story of victory over the other person, and (in his mind, but often not in reality) their grovelling apology and acknowledgement that they were totally in the wrong and he was totally right.  As soon as one of these stories started, I used to cringe and think "oh no, not another one".  I don't understand why he feels the need to justify himself so strongly after those situations, nor whether the story is primarily aimed at convincing me or himself.

So there it is.  I'm now 50, and finding employment in a crowded field is not easy at my age.  I do have a job, but it's physically demanding and I'm getting a bit old for such heavy work.  If this business was a success, it could potentially take me through to retirement with a good income.    (I'll add that I am a lot better at diplomacy than he is, so I would need to make sure that I was closely involved in relationships with suppliers and clients.  And the good-cop/bad-cop thing can actually have its advantages at times.)

So basically ... .do you think these flags are really serious red ones, or do you get the feeling they are manageable?  Because a business is a lot easier to get into than out of if things go wrong... .

[Turkish]

PTSD or BPD. He might have both.  My mom does.  She was diagnosed with PTSD before BPD was a recognized diagnosis.

This sounds like some  at least.  The upside is that you have the tools to validate.  Could you handle stress outbursts which might be normal in any partnership? Aside from the emotional stuff, what would be your exposure financially? Could you envision a business plan and contract which would protect both of you?

[mousemat]

Aside from the emotional stuff, what would be your exposure financially? Could you envision a business plan and contract which would protect both of you?

It's a very good point.  I spent this morning reading about different small-business structures, and the trade-off you get between complexity and protection.  I don't have the answer yet, but I think it's a manageable issue.

[Insom]

Hi, mousemat. 

Is there an in-between situation where you two can bid and work on projects together without forming a business partnership?  What do you think about forming your own entity and then coming together as collaborators?

FWIW, while my romantic life is sorted, I still feel drawn to emotionally intense people and situations at work.  I work in a creative field where most people freelance and it's not unusual for people to form sole proprietorships and work out collaborative financial arrangements with partners on a project by project basis which gives you the benefits of collaboration you mentioned minus the risks that come with entanglement. 

Anyway, a BPD diagnosis is, in my opinion, more of a red  than yellow flag, but doesn't mean you two can't work together on project by project basis.  When I've worked on projects with people with NPD/BPD traits they've tended to start with a rush of positive validation and creativity and then they turn . . . difficult and I spend the rest of the time trying to extricate myself and always end up grateful I'm not in business with that person.

I'm now 50, and finding employment in a crowded field is not easy at my age.  I do have a job, but it's physically demanding and I'm getting a bit old for such heavy work.  If this business was a success, it could potentially take me through to retirement with a good income

You're asking great questions.  Age discrimination is real and I hear you're ready for change.

Could it be you're simply at the start of envisioning what you want the second half of your work-life to look like?  That this is but one of many possible directions you could go in?  What are some other possibilities?
 



 

[once removed]

I'm trying to do better at my "interpersonal judgements" when forming close connections.
... .
Having had my own significant exposure to BPD, and read a hundred stories on this site, I would have to say that I never saw those kind of behaviours.  

i think this is illustrative of the fact that people with BPD and BPD traits, while they share some core characteristics, are all very different people in most ways. to give you an idea, one of my longest term, closest friends, has BPD traits; shes never so much as broken a heart, and our relationship has never had any conflict.

it helps me to think of BPD as a particular personality style... .and you get the difficult stuff with a BPD flavor to varying degrees, in varying situations. you need different tools with different difficult/challenging personality styles.

what you do have is what sounds like a conflict prone personality style in the workplace (seems like there always is!) and you need to consider if you want to risk that. good conflict tools will help a lot, but they dont prevent him from perceiving slights, sinking things, or any of the behavior hes told you he engaged in in the past.

Could you envision a business plan and contract which would protect both of you?

if youre gonna work with him, be smart, be safe.

[MeandThee29]

I get your concerns. I'm older than you, and here I am juggling multiple part-time jobs including a very physical one in retail. I've been looking for months and suspect that my age is a major factor.

At this stage, I wouldn't touch a partnership with a potentially disordered person with a ten-foot pole. It just isn't something I'd want to deal with every day. I'm at the stage in life where I want to somewhat enjoy my work and go home at a reasonable time. I'd like to make more than I do now, but I'm fine with not being well off.

The talk about his conflicts and victories is troubling. If he's not seeing problems as something you solve collaboratively, he's going to be hard to work with. One of the things I enjoy about my retail job is that everyone works together to solve problems and cover each other's weaknesses. I realize that retail is a little different that way, but it's very refreshing to me. My professional positions were far more competitive and about individuals trying to come out on top and put others down.

[mousemat]

... .collaborative financial arrangements with partners on a project by project basis which gives you the benefits of collaboration you mentioned minus the risks that come with entanglement.

Hmmm ... .that could be the way forward, at least initially.  I could potentially work that way with him for a year or more, making observations as I go, and then judge whether it's safe to go with a proper tie-up.

Plus, it'd be interesting to see whether he picked up on any conflict-resolving tactics, if I was to try to 'model' them for him.  If he did so, that would be a positive sign, and be helpful for him too.

I still feel drawn to emotionally intense people and situations at work.

Ha!  I'd have to have my head buried particularly deep in sand, to think that this is not in some way a factor in my life too... .

[mousemat]

... .it helps me to think of BPD as a particular personality style... .and you get the difficult stuff with a BPD flavor to varying degrees, in varying situations. you need different tools ... .

Glad you pointed that out.  He's never behaved (toward me) with anything other than civility & openness.  Which makes me wonder, if he can do that with one person, is he "well enough" to be able to learn to do it with others in - at least some of - the situations that currently trigger him?  I guess only time would tell.

[pearlsw]

Hi mousemat,  

Hope you are well. Just saw this interesting and informative thread you started! Thank you for sharing this! Can't say I have much to add other than my support and concern and well wishes for your business endeavors.

I just want to highlight what an insightful thread this is in that it serves as a good reminder of how BPD/BPD traits can look on different people. This has been a great reminder of that!

It makes me want to rethink some things. PTSD seems more treatable, something that could go away, but I am not sure. Maybe in some cases, maybe not in others? I have wondered too if the issues my SO has are more PTSD rather than BPD traits, or both?

How do you react when he bashes others? Does he get any sense that you have an issue with this? I tend to take this as a  , (or  depending on severity) in terms of dating at least. If people trash an ex, or anyone, I figure that could be me they are talking about that way one day and I take heed.

I wish you the best of luck with this!

warmly, pearl.