Notification about business trips

[mama-wolf]

I could use a bit of a sounding board on this one.  I’ll check with my T and my L about this if needed, but wanted to get thoughts from the Fam as well... .

By prior arrangement, my stbx called this afternoon so that we could compare notes about D9’s inventory of seasonal clothes (at least, what still fits).  She has been pushing for us to “establish a budget” for us to split in order to supplement then kids’ wardrobe at each location.  I have maintained that I will send over whatever excess may still be at my house in order to even out the base, but that otherwise we should each just buy what’s needed to endure they have enough at our house. No need to mingle finances any further... .that’s what I pay child support for.

She doesn’t really like my position on that, but didn’t press me any further.  She then asked how the kids were doing, and I shared that they were with my mother and sister at that moment, due back home any minute.  I had been gone part of the day on a hike with some friends... .a hike that is a yearly event that I have missed for the last several years, and something I felt it important for me to participate in even though it happened to fall on my weekend with the kids.

I could sense over the phone that my stbx definitely didn’t like that I wasn’t spending every possible second with the kids during “my” time (especially since they were with my mother and she totally resents my mother). The next thing I know, she’s asking me if I have been on any business trips while the kids were with me since we separated. She acknowledged that this was a sticking point during our mediation (she wanted right of first refusal to keep the kids in those instances and I flat out refused). She said even though she doesn’t get that right of first refusal,she just “really wants me to do her that courtesy.”

I felt put on the spot and ended up telling her I had one trip where I had to leave on a Tuesday, so my mom stayed with the kids at my house and took them to camp the next morning (at which point my stbx’s time with them began). I also threw in that this was while she was living with her parents for the month or so between separation and her moving into her own townhouse.  I could hear her getting emotional on the phone, asking that I let her know if I do have to go out of town while the kids are staying with me.

So I need help working through a few thoughts... .

Why tell her anything about my travel status if it’s my custodial time and I have made suitable arrangements for care for my children? The only thing this does is invite her to ask for the opportunity to keep them, which I’m not inclined to do for numerous reasons.

1) They don’t want to spend more time with her (especially D9).  She is more irritable, critical, and emotional.  She’s more demanding.
2) The only time my kids have a chance to continue building their relationships with  my mother and sister are during the 50% of the time that they are in my custody. So I would prefer that their first option be to stay with one of them.
3) She doesn’t know it yet, but my mom is going to love in soon, so there is even less reason to uproot the kids for an extra night and force them into the 45-75 minute commute time to/from school (since stbx chose to live that far away) just because I am out of town for a day.
4) Telling her that I will be out of town and knowing I’m very unlikely to agree to sending the kids to stay with her just invites her to accuse me of being cruel, thoughtless, and uncaring about how much she misses them when they are not with her.

Thoughts?

mw

[livednlearned]

I think you answered your own question 

She is doing the best she can, and there is room for improvement. You will have to help her with that improvement by knowing what your limits are and sticking to them, even if it's awkward.

"My travel schedule is not up for discussion."

"Let's focus on these other issues you mentioned."

"I am sticking to the order the way it is written."

[Turkish]

Yep.  Your life is none of her business.  You make arrangements for the kids to be safe on your time and that's your obligation: to the kids. 

As for clothes, my kids take what they wear.  The only time we talk about clothes is school uniforms.  I got the kids nice rain jackets last year (which still fit) so the only other time is "can you make sure the kids return with their jackets?" If needed. 

[JNChell]

mama-wolf, point blank. Your time with the kids is your time with the kids. If co-parenting becomes too difficult, then I suggest parallel parenting and placing boundaries. I would send S3 to his his mom in his pj’s. She wouldn’t return them even when I told her to just put them in his backpack dirty. It was a game and it was ridiculous. My T has helped become proactive on this. I’m not playing a game anymore. I have staggered my laundry days to when S3 will be with me. I wash what he was wearing and anything in his backpack. He is sent back with what he arrived with. He’s returned bathed, well fed and in clean clothes. I return him better than I receive him not just out of love for my Son, but also to reduce the risk of conflict with his mother.

[takingandsending]

Hi m-wolf.

I have similar issues with my xw. I have 50/50 schedule, and I work an hour away 3 days a week while I have them, which has required that I use a nanny service over the summer. My xw also does not understand ROFR and believes I manipulate it to my advantage. xw believes that I should always go to her first before I use any care providers (yes - she also does not agree with my sister or brother in law babysitting/spending time with my sons).

For a while, I hung on to the belief that the kids were better of with one of us over a care provider. Soon, I realized that xw likes to be able to say she is working and can't help or to request money from me that I would pay a nanny when she can assist. It's a way to keep engaging, mostly negatively. So, I started using nannies. xw demands to know the nanny's phone number and name, if it is the same person each day or a different person. I do not provide information, although I caved recently after rebuffing several previous attempts.

I will echo the others' advice: your time is your time. She is responsible for her time. Stick to the court order.

I do the same as Turkish regarding clothing. They leave in what they came in. Jackets go back and forth.

Someone asked me this question on my recent loss of boundaries about providing the nanny's phone number: what thoughts were going through my head when I consented? On my part, I am still allowing a large level of FOG over my parenting, even though I know that it is projection from xw. Maybe taking a look at that, in your situation, can help you sort yourself out.

[kells76]

I can see how the business trip thing is tricky.

Did she have any actual safety concerns? Like if something happened to you while you were away? (I'm answering my own question -- then you leave her contact info with your sister who could be your emergency contact while you're gone)

The way the kids' mom handles it is not great. She went on a yoga retreat last year. Before that she sent a mass email to friends, neighbors, and DH asking for child care. Not very sensitive to the fact that he has a different relationship with the kids than the neighbors do. He did call her out on that, and I guess we don't see the mass emails any more? Or he's not on them? Anyway, if I remember right, she didn't differentiate in the email that some of the time she was gone was actually DH's time. Oops.

Apparently she was out of town this weekend. I had no idea. On Friday SD12 asked, right as Stepdad was showing up, if she could stay the night. She said "Mom said it was fine". So of course we said yes. The next day I texted Mom to see if an X o'clock drop off was ok. That's when I found out she was out of town, because she had me coordinate with Stepdad.

So I get the trickiness of who takes care of the kids when a parent is gone. It makes sense to me that your family does that for you on your time. Keeping it low key -- like not mass emailing everyone to see who can do it -- is a good move.

How do you think she would respond to something like "Thanks so much for offering, I really appreciate it. I'll make sure to let you know no less than 48 hours in advance if I'll take you up on that." Or would that be too much info for her?

At the end of the day, I agree with JNChell -- your time is your time. If you were trying to have the kids spend time with your family during her PT, she'd be in the right to object. It may take a little while for her to get tired of trying to control how you parent on your time.

Back later with more thoughts on clothes situation

kells76

[ForeverDad]

I felt put on the spot and ended up telling her... .

Two thoughts... .You were caught off guard by her, um, interrogation.  Try to rehearse with yourself what you could do when you get these sorts of surprise questions.  I don't know the ideal answer, but at the least you could distract her from the topic or delay your answer.  "There's enough on that topic for now.  Let me consider your thoughts and I'll get back to you later... ."  The point is that they're experts, years of practice, at cornering and guilting us when we are unprepared with an answer.

Expect that your logic (it was while she was living between homes) won't counteract her stronger feelings and emotions.  With my own ex, and many others reporting the more extreme PD behaviors here, her feelings, her triggers, her perceptions, her whatevers all trump any logic I have.  It just Is.  So accept that no matter how valid your decisions are, the ex probably won't agree.

I think your ex may not be as extremely entitled as others described here?  If so, then your struggle may not be so hard to manage.

[mama-wolf]

Thank you all for the replies--it's very helpful to talk through it with folks who have been there.

As far as clothes go... .it's too cumbersome for me to have the kids carry a bag for the clothes they'll wear over at the other house.  But I do try to make sure that whatever they wear over there is either older clothes (from before the split) or something they have previously worn to my house from there.  Jackets and shoes may end up being a point of contention, as they will definitely have to go back and forth.

Did she have any actual safety concerns? Like if something happened to you while you were away? (I'm answering my own question -- then you leave her contact info with your sister who could be your emergency contact while you're gone)

How do you think she would respond to something like "Thanks so much for offering, I really appreciate it. I'll make sure to let you know no less than 48 hours in advance if I'll take you up on that." Or would that be too much info for her?

kells76 she didn't express any concern about safety... .I know it's more about her wanting to know what's going on in my house and wanting some say in who the kids are with.  I'm pretty sure it's also about wanting the opportunity and ammunition to use my trips against me... .if for nothing else than to try to guilt me into letting the kids stay with her more.

I don't think opening the door to her request in any way will work very well.  I prefer to just make it clear that the default will always been for the kids to stay with my family, just as I would expect her to have the same default.  And I don't need to tell her who the kids are with any more than she needs to tell me who they're with when they're with her (at least, not when it's immediate family).

Her problem with this is that on the more rare occasions that she needs to go out of town for a conference, it is highly unlikely that the kids will stay with her family.  On the one hand, because they are often "too busy" to keep the kids, but mainly because it's too difficult for my stbx to ask them for support.  She really struggles to do that.  It's one of the many problems we had in our marriage... .she just couldn't or wouldn't ask for more help or support from them.  Either because she internalized some (possibly totally inaccurate) expectation that she shouldn't, or she just plain couldn't because of her pride.

Try to rehearse with yourself what you could do when you get these sorts of surprise questions.

The point is that they're experts, years of practice, at cornering and guilting us when we are unprepared with an answer.

Excellent advice, FD... .thank you!  I really do need to work on being prepared for this sort of thing when I go into conversations with her.  I also think I need to continue keeping those conversations very few and far between.  There is very little that we should need to actually talk live about.  It's also really hard to accept that almost no amount of logical discussion will work when there's something she wants or thinks she deserves.

I think your ex may not be as extremely entitled as others described here?  If so, then your struggle may not be so hard to manage.

She actually has an extreme sense of entitlement.  The difference with my ex is that she does not exhibit quite the level of extreme behaviors as many others have experienced here.  She's not as violent, and not quite as emotionally unstable, but still extremely reactive, impulsive, controlling, and manipulative.  As far as her ego and sense of entitlement... .it is something that I know is going to fester under the surface for years to come, and will especially explode if/when she sees me doing well financially, and sees my relationship with the kids prospering while she continues struggling with her relationship with them.

Anything I achieve, she will see as having come at a cost to what she could have achieved or could have had.  She is in full-on victim mode right now (see the rant she sent to me in my other thread).  It has been a common theme for her over the years, but it's definitely amplified now... .and I know that unless she changes a lot about herself, it's not going to go away.

mw

[livednlearned]

I admire you for regulating strong emotions and sending her a BIFF response instead 

I know how hard that can be.

She wants you to feel how she feels.

We all do this to some extent. Her feelings are bullet trains so they move faster and hit harder.

This is a testing period for your parenting plan, whether it has the kind of structure and specificity required for parallel parenting (which is recommended even for low-conflict coparenting for a year after divorce). It's easier to relax the rules than try to make them more watertight. If the rules aren't extremely clear, and she is riding out what would be a difficult transition (BPD or not), then you may see more testing.

Your BIFF responses might be more wordy than necessary, for now at least.

"I will take S5 to his ballet lessons" might be a sufficient response after a rant you have no desire to receive again.

FD's advice to rehearse is a good one. Maybe extend it to phrases that help you avoid in person or phone conversations where you lose footing. "I'm not good at discussing this stuff in person. Let's move this to email so I can give your comments the focus this matter deserves."

She may be able to cooperate with you more as time goes on and this gets less intense for her. Right now, she can't.

If there is no ROFR in your custody order and she raises the issue, copy/paste that section of the order, and let her know you are following the agreement.

It gets easier over time.

The black belt of parallel parenting is when you learn to structure a proposal/solution in a way you can move forward whether she stonewalls, obstructs, or dysregulates. I remember taking days to write those emails. Eventually it came naturally like second nature.

I'm glad you're processing this here with friends who understand. I don't know how I would've made it through this stuff without people here.

Keep doing what you're doing. You are handling this so much better than I did 

LnL

[worriedStepmom]

Her problem with this is that on the more rare occasions that she needs to go out of town for a conference, it is highly unlikely that the kids will stay with her family.  On the one hand, because they are often "too busy" to keep the kids, but mainly because it's too difficult for my stbx to ask them for support. 

That is definitely *her* problem, meaning not one that you have to fix.

My H's uBPDexW thinks this way too - because SHE chooses to make certain choices on her parenting time to defer to H, she thinks H should have to make the same choices to defer to her about certain things on his time.  After all, she does X, so everyone should have to do X "to be fair".

That's just not the way it works.

There's no reason she needs to know when you are out of town.  Don't feel guilty.

[mama-wolf]

because SHE chooses to make certain choices on her parenting time to defer to H, she thinks H should have to make the same choices to defer to her about certain things on his time.  After all, she does X, so everyone should have to do X "to be fair".

worriedStepmom, that is an EXACT characterization of my stbx!

And now, unfortunately, it seems I have really managed to piss her off with my response, which I wasn't planning to give until I had also had a chance to discuss with my T on Thursday.  I'm really not trying to be difficult, or to escalate the situation, but I'm sure I have made some missteps.  I could use some help on how to de-escalate the situation while still maintaining boundaries.

Here's the exchange from today.  To give you a little background, she saw that I had signed up for a parent conference with S5's kindergarten teacher (publicly available sign-up that the teacher sent out for fall conferences) but that I hadn't coordinated it with her or notified her.  So she sent the following text to me about that and included a follow-up about the travel issue:

"I just see that you signed up for a conference for S5 this Thursday morning at 8:15am. I would like to (i) attend with you so we both hear the same thing and dont take up two slots and (ii) ask you to let me know when you plan to attend things like this for our kids' respective education.

You aren't required to let me know (under the Custody Order), but you have always promised we would keep the kids first. I'm still his mom, as are you. Regardless of whether you think you provide such basic communications, please know that I plan to keep you "in the loop" on school activities and if/when I go out of town and ask (stbx's parents) to take care of the kids."

Not wanting to get into things over text, I switched to the OFW platform for my response.  My reply, after considering her text and the discussion in this thread:

"In response to your text today:

We can go to the parent conference with S5's teacher together if the timeslot I signed up for works for you. I figured you would see it on the Sign-Up Genius when you checked the schedule yourself, and either it would work for you or we could update each other on our own individual discussions.

With regards to notifications about who is staying with whom during custodial time, I do not feel it is necessary for you to tell me if you go out of town and the kids are staying with family members. Just as I don't feel it necessary to notify you of the same on my end."

I know she makes a habit of not checking OFW for days at a time (last access timestamp for her was five days ago already), so I sent a brief text as well that just said "Sure--we can attend together on Thursday."  Maybe I should have included a note at that point that I sent more of a reply in OFW.  She responded almost immediately via text with:

"Thanks. I should have said that either way I'm coming since I will already be there to drop off kids and we're both his parents. Can you confirm with me about future events? As in, schedule yourself if you get to it ahead of me but maybe let me know directly so I don't find out from the public SignUp site that our son's teacher is holding a conference about him?"

Then later, once she had clearly read my response in OFW, she fired off the following lovely message:

"I get that you don't find it NECESSARY under thw terms of the Consent Order that our respective families paid thousands for, I'm asking because I want to know where OUR children sleep at night and who is caring for them. It's not about trusting you or trusting your mom. It's about knowing that if the school calls me while I'm at work, then (i) I know you are out of town and (ii) I know who to call in your stead (whether it's your mom or your sister). You already f*cking "won" on the right of first refusal. I'm simply asking to know WHEN YOU ARE OUT OF STATE and WITH WHOM THEY HAVE BEEN ENTRUSTED. I dont give a flying f*ck as to who you are with or where you go (whether they are under your custodianship time or mine.) I'm asking for really basic information and communication, not control over how you choose to parent when they are in your custodianship. Relent on this or my first call Wednesday will be to the Parent Coordinator that was your idea and whose retainer you paid for. Get off your hind legs about whether or not I'm trying to control you. This isn't about you, it's about OUR CHILDREN."

So, there are reasonable points burried in all the anger and resentment.  But I also worry that it will just open a door that I will later wish remained closed.  She clearly doesn't realize it yet, but the parent coordinator has not yet been formally assigned by the court, so her call tomorrow won't really go anywhere (if she follows through with it).  But I also don't want her spinning up into some kind of full on meltdown.  I already sent my attorney a heads-up as well.

I also just really hate the way she "talks" to me.  This is the most aggressive by far with the whole command to "relent," but the whole attorney thing of (i) and (ii) listing B.S. gets very old.  And no matter what I do, it's still going to get the worst possible interpretation so why even try to make it any better?

I can hope she calms down a little bit by tomorrow morning, but do think it would be best if I can at least send some kind of defusing message by then... .

mw

[Turkish]

I agree about some valid points being buried in there.  The second response was uncalled for,  to say the least, but you have it in writing 

It's about knowing that if the school calls me while I'm at work, then (i) I know you are out of town and (ii) I know who to call in your stead (whether it's your mom or your sister).

Is this valid? I filed the custody order with our school,  but I don't expect rum to know who the kids are with on whatever day.  She has your relatives' numbers,  yes?

Do you feel comfortable attending the same parent conference? I'm sure the school would schedule separate ones (my school asked me if they needed to do that,  these situations aren't uncommon).

[livednlearned]

Your messages can be even shorter.

"Please feel free to join S5's parent-teacher conference at 8:15am on Thursday."

It may work better if you stick to one topic per message.

You also don't have to re-litigate topics you have already addressed. She knows about the ROFR and you let her your thoughts on notifying each other.

The smaller the message, the smaller the target.

The first year is hard.

[mama-wolf]

Is this valid? I filed the custody order with our school,  but I don't expect rum to know who the kids are with on whatever day.  She has your relatives' numbers,  yes?

I really don't think it is valid.  From my perspective (please someone correct me if I'm off base!)... .

1)  If the school calls her while it is my custodial time, then she needs to call me immediately (or I guess have them do so) regardless of whether I am out of town.  If it's an emergency and I am out of town, then I would ask her to handle it or I would offer to involve one of my family members.  If it's not an emergency, then I will either take care of it, have a family member take care of it while I make my way home, or ultimately ask for her help.

2)  If the school calls her while it's her custodial time and it's not an emergency, then she needs to take care of it.  If it is an emergency, then she needs to call me immediately. 

And yes, in the end she does have my mother's and my sister's phone numbers, just as I have all of her family members' numbers.

Do you feel comfortable attending the same parent conference? I'm sure the school would schedule separate ones (my school asked me if they needed to do that,  these situations aren't uncommon).

I'm really not looking forward to it.  I know they would schedule separate conferences, and I guess I'll see how this one goes first.  If she can't handle it civilly then I'll ask for separate conferences in the future.  I'm sure the school has dealt with its fair share of conflict situations.

Your messages can be even shorter.

The smaller the message, the smaller the target.

The first year is hard.

Very good point, and it really, really is... .

I didn't want things to linger too long, so I did send the following reply to her angry message.  I know it could have been shorter, but I'm trying to balance what I know will incite her due to interpreting it as being cold and abrupt vs maintaining as much brevity as possible.  My hope was that this will buy me some time to get some guidance from my T my next session tomorrow afternoon:

"I understand that I have made you angry, and that was not my intention.  I know this is a very difficult time, and this subject is coming on the heels of other recent miscommunications/frustrations that seem to be piling up.

I will at least confirm that there are currently no plans for me to travel during my custodial time.  As far as the rest is concerned, I will reply back after I have had more of an opportunity to consider my response.  To be clear upfront, I do not intend to discuss this when we see each other at the parent conference tomorrow morning."

It seems she has been waiting for my response this morning, because she almost immediately sent the following reply while I was composing this post:

"Thank you for your detached, yet reasonable response.

I have no intention of wanting to interact with you directly on this particular issue tomorrow morning. Trying to interact with you face to face at this point makes me so angry and sad all at the same time, that I am flooded before my mouth can even open.

I will be attending tomorrow morning as a co-parent, not as your ex-wife."

It is so exhausting... .

And this is REALLY going to get "fun" when I tell her my mom will be moving in with me in the next month or two.  That's part of what my T and I are supposed to discuss tomorrow... .strategies for how to break that news to my stbx and manage her emotional response.

mw

[livednlearned]

You're doing a really, really good job at this, mama-wolf.

Your ex seems to be in the generally cooperative, not dangerous category that Bill Eddy describes, which means she may be responsive to EAR (empathy, attention, respect) communication skills.

The tricky part of EAR (I find) is identifying the desired behavior.

With your situation, the clearest offense that I see is her anger and disrespect in the OFW email.

An EAR statement might be, "Please do not use foul language (or berate me, or whatever the offense is) in emails to me. We’re having an important discussion and when there is foul language I cannot give this topic the attention it deserves."

An EAR response to the upcoming conference might be, "I will be willing to do joint conferences in the future if we can stay focused on S5 tomorrow."

Or "I like your suggestion to engage the parenting coordinator to help with this. I will set something up for later this month."

You find what you like in her messages and give her clear parameters about the behaviors you want.

It's kinda reasonable what she's asking for, it's the pattern of behaviors and what happens next that you're objecting to, is that accurate to say? And the quick escalation to swearing and berating you that follows.

[mama-wolf]

You're doing a really, really good job at this, mama-wolf.

Thanks so much LnL!  I shared the exchange with my T,  and she was also very complimentary about my response.  It clearly defused the emotion she was building and the argument she was trying to lead us to.

I do like the article on EAR, and will try to keep it in mind for future responses--thank you for sharing the link!  I think the empathy part may be a bit of a challenge for me since I have been through the emotional burnout wringer since last Fall.  I don't think I'm still in full-on burnout anymore since I'm finally getting the space with our separation to start crawling out of that hole, but my capacity for empathy towards my stbx in particular just really suffered a lot of damage.  It takes a lot of extra effort to find and use the words that she needs to hear.

It's kinda reasonable what she's asking for, it's the pattern of behaviors and what happens next that you're objecting to, is that accurate to say? And the quick escalation to swearing and berating you that follows.

Yes, I agree that the part about knowing who is caring for the kids is somewhat reasonable.  At the same time, she has a history of micro-managing my parenting, and now that we're separated she is railing against the loss of control.  So I'm hypervigilant towards any avenue she may have for exerting her influence and pushing me to agree to things like she did so much over the years... .

mw