Question about dealing with splitting

[Verity]

Let me preface this by saying, I am new here and my husband is not yet diagnosed, but hopefully things will come to light within the next 3 weeks of assessments.

I'm trying to read as much as I can here, but I am very overwhelmed right now.  I'm dealing with depression and anxiety and can barely make it through a day.  So, to weed through all this information is tough right now.  (Normally I am an information maniac reading everything I can)

One of the biggest things I'm struggling with right now is my husband's idealization/depreciation of me.  We are in a time of stress because for the first time I am setting boundaries in our relationship and he doesn't like it.  It's hard for me to hold them, but I am.  This has caused this splitting to happen even more.

I can handle the depreciation part of the cycle.  I'm used to that and actually, it's more comfortable because I'm not waiting for "the other shoe to drop" so to speak.  He's already mad at me so who cares if I do something else to make him mad.

It's the idealization that I'm struggling with.  All of a sudden out the blue he will be the sweetest thing to me.  He will compliment me on how I look.  He will tell me he loves me.  He will reassert he will listen to and respect my boundaries.  He even bought me flowers yesterday, which rarely happens (I'm not much of a flower person, but I appreciate the gesture.). 

That all sounds great, right?  Well, I cannot get myself to react at all to these gestures because to me they are just part of the cycle.  I'm "good wife" again.  Until I'm not.  I am respectful and tell him thank you, but these things mean nothing to me anymore.  They used to draw me back in and make me believe that things would be different this time, but now I know better.  Until he gets help (he's starting therapy this week and will hopefully be diagnosed within the next 3 weeks, but I know that's just the start) none of this is going to change.

How do I protect myself during this time?  I want so badly to feel that love that he's trying to give me, but I just can't let myself right now.  These are the times when it's easy for me to see he is sick and needs help.  I start to have more compassion and have more ability to deal with him.  As opposed to when I'm "bad wife" and I have a hard time remembering his good qualities.  Uggggg... .

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[isilme]

I'm sorry.  I kinda understand.  The last few weeks during very stressful times and time when my husband has had his own body image issues, he's made sure to call me fat.  It' hurts quite a lot - I have struggled with weight and personal image since puberty, and overall accept I am reasonably symmetrical in appearance, but no great beauty.  So later, when he's in a good mood, and he tells me I am pretty, etc. I can't accept it. 

I feel it's a lie, it's only for now, and his "real" feelings are the negative ones.  I guess maybe there's a flaw in my thoughts there, tho?

If a pwBPD's feelings = facts, then maybe the positive feelings/facts are just as "valid" for them as the negative ones? 

I have to rely on ME for my feelings about me.  H is inconsistent, and while overall there is a thread of "you're worth being around, even if I fly off the handle on you and am ugly when I do." 

It's normal to have some walls and boundaries around your heart when it's been hurt.  It's okay.  I think the more you learn about BPD, how it makes someone think, and act, it becomes a little easier at times to cope, to allow the good in but keep the bad out.  They really are a hurt mess inside it seems to me, it's a pretty sad way to exist.  And yes, seeing it for what it is, an emotional disability is important.  I can't be mad at H when his neuropathy makes it hard for him to do certain physical tasks.  I need to see the BPD as the same thing, preventing him from the consistent, supportive behavior I wish he could have.  Radical Acceptance of his limitations helps me not be AS disappointed, not quite as hurt as often, and it keeps my expectations real and within his scope.  My mistake is when I allow my expectations to rise.  Sad to say, keeping the bat pretty low helps me the most.  I expect little to nothing from people, so they can surprise me. 

He cooked breakfast this weekend.  I'd been horribly ill, food poisoning, since Thursday night, an exhausted mess, no sleep, in the bathroom every 30-120 minutes.  Usually, he fidgets until I wake up, and then insists he's very hungry (he's diabetic, and hunger means his sugar is pretty low, and also means dysregulation is not far off).  This is usually my cue to get up and cook or get something.  This time, he took the initiative and cooked something simple I was able to eat (still got a little sick later, but not his fault).  I was able to accept that, in spite of the fact I know later it will be my duty to feed him with little to no thanks for it.

Basically, look for the average/mean between his comments.  Somewhere there, between idealized highs and angry lows is where you are - just remember both sides are the same BPD coin, and if he didn't feel emotionally close to you, you'd never see these extremes from him.  yay - we have been accepted into the BPD envelope because they love us.  Boo, this means we get to see the whole person, not the mask they who everyone else. 

Also, try to not focus on the diagnosis.  BPD is a series of behavioral issues.  There are really no drugs that treat it.  It's rare for someone with it to accept they have it.  It's rare they will accept they need treatment and what the treatment entails.

Improvement hinges primarily with us.  We are more emotionally aware.  This means we are more equipped to look at what we do, and how it makes thing more volatile, more prone to outbursts, and how we can work in invalidation and JADEing, and start using SET instead.  How we can choose which engagements are necessary, instead of responding to any and all jabs and irrational statements.  Ignoring a comment meant to start a fight can go a long way. 

And you are working on setting boundaries, and he has to get used to a new normal.  Once you get that normal established, you are likely going to feel better about new boundaries, new changes to the status quo - think of this like building a ladder, and he's tied to a rope behind you.  As you climb, he will be dragged up, even if you put in the majority of the effort.  It may be slow going at times, he may help at times.  But you can do this!   

[Educated_Guess]

Hi Verity!  I am sorry you are going through such a difficult time.  I want to applaud you for trying to find that sense of balance.  You must be a caring and considerate person to want to find that.  You also have a lot of clarity and discernment to be able to see things as they are.

In my opinion, the most important thing is for you right now is to care for yourself and regain your sense of stability.  What do you think about telling him that you need space to collect your own thoughts and feelings without having to react to him?  You could say that you appreciate things like the flowers and the compliments but you need your space from even those kinds of things right now and set that as a boundary.

Keep in mind, he likely benefits from you being off balance and he may not like you setting an additional boundary with him.  But love is about respecting another's boundaries, right?  You don't have to explain why you need that boundary, just that you need it.  If he loves you authentically, he will respect it.

[Verity]

Hi Verity!  I am sorry you are going through such a difficult time.  I want to applaud you for trying to find that sense of balance.  You must be a caring and considerate person to want to find that.  You also have a lot of clarity and discernment to be able to see things as they are.

In my opinion, the most important thing is for you right now is to care for yourself and regain your sense of stability.  What do you think about telling him that you need space to collect your own thoughts and feelings without having to react to him?  You could say that you appreciate things like the flowers and the compliments but you need your space from even those kinds of things right now and set that as a boundary.

Keep in mind, he likely benefits from you being off balance and he may not like you setting an additional boundary with him.  But love is about respecting another's boundaries, right?  You don't have to explain why you need that boundary, just that you need it.  If he loves you authentically, he will respect it.

Thank you for your kind words.  Sometimes I feel lonely when no one else I know has to go to great measures just to have a "normal" conversation.  It's a lot of work.

For now my discussion boundaries are very tight so I think telling him no "nice things" will frustrate him too much.  I look at him as kind of going through "withdrawl" of me.  He has used me in many ways over 23 years to soothe his own feelings.  Now, I'm taking a step away and it's going to be his responsibility to figure out how to deal with his feelings without depending on me.  For the first time I am seeing "abandonment" issues with him.  They have not really surfaced in the past because I have never "left" him emotionally.  Now, in his mind I am separate from him and he doesn't like it.  He is almost compelled to be near me, yet at the same time can't stand to be near me.  It's so weird.  I think he needs these "nice" gestures to soothe himself.  I don't know that it even has anything to do with me. 

You are so right about me needing my space.  For the first time I don't feel guilty or bad about it.  I used to feel so guilty that I'd just get pulled right back into the cycle, but this time I don't feel that way at all.  It's very freeing!  It brings along with it other issues that we now have to deal with, but I'm starting to feel like I may be able to find my voice again.  I know the more I learn the more the confusion will clear and I will understand better what exactly is going on and how to fix it.  Sometimes I have a pity party for myself when I think about all of this landing on me.  There's very little he can do right now to control himself.  It's like I have a grown toddler as a husband.  I try not to think of that too much, but it is something I struggle to wrap my head around right now.

[Verity]

I'm sorry.  I kinda understand.  The last few weeks during very stressful times and time when my husband has had his own body image issues, he's made sure to call me fat.  It' hurts quite a lot - I have struggled with weight and personal image since puberty, and overall accept I am reasonably symmetrical in appearance, but no great beauty.  So later, when he's in a good mood, and he tells me I am pretty, etc. I can't accept it. 

I feel it's a lie, it's only for now, and his "real" feelings are the negative ones.  I guess maybe there's a flaw in my thoughts there, tho?

If a pwBPD's feelings = facts, then maybe the positive feelings/facts are just as "valid" for them as the negative ones? 

I have to rely on ME for my feelings about me.  H is inconsistent, and while overall there is a thread of "you're worth being around, even if I fly off the handle on you and am ugly when I do." 

It's normal to have some walls and boundaries around your heart when it's been hurt.  It's okay.  I think the more you learn about BPD, how it makes someone think, and act, it becomes a little easier at times to cope, to allow the good in but keep the bad out.  They really are a hurt mess inside it seems to me, it's a pretty sad way to exist.  And yes, seeing it for what it is, an emotional disability is important.  I can't be mad at H when his neuropathy makes it hard for him to do certain physical tasks.  I need to see the BPD as the same thing, preventing him from the consistent, supportive behavior I wish he could have.  Radical Acceptance of his limitations helps me not be AS disappointed, not quite as hurt as often, and it keeps my expectations real and within his scope.  My mistake is when I allow my expectations to rise.  Sad to say, keeping the bat pretty low helps me the most.  I expect little to nothing from people, so they can surprise me. 

He cooked breakfast this weekend.  I'd been horribly ill, food poisoning, since Thursday night, an exhausted mess, no sleep, in the bathroom every 30-120 minutes.  Usually, he fidgets until I wake up, and then insists he's very hungry (he's diabetic, and hunger means his sugar is pretty low, and also means dysregulation is not far off).  This is usually my cue to get up and cook or get something.  This time, he took the initiative and cooked something simple I was able to eat (still got a little sick later, but not his fault).  I was able to accept that, in spite of the fact I know later it will be my duty to feed him with little to no thanks for it.

Basically, look for the average/mean between his comments.  Somewhere there, between idealized highs and angry lows is where you are - just remember both sides are the same BPD coin, and if he didn't feel emotionally close to you, you'd never see these extremes from him.  yay - we have been accepted into the BPD envelope because they love us.  Boo, this means we get to see the whole person, not the mask they who everyone else. 

Also, try to not focus on the diagnosis.  BPD is a series of behavioral issues.  There are really no drugs that treat it.  It's rare for someone with it to accept they have it.  It's rare they will accept they need treatment and what the treatment entails.

Improvement hinges primarily with us.  We are more emotionally aware.  This means we are more equipped to look at what we do, and how it makes thing more volatile, more prone to outbursts, and how we can work in invalidation and JADEing, and start using SET instead.  How we can choose which engagements are necessary, instead of responding to any and all jabs and irrational statements.  Ignoring a comment meant to start a fight can go a long way. 

And you are working on setting boundaries, and he has to get used to a new normal.  Once you get that normal established, you are likely going to feel better about new boundaries, new changes to the status quo - think of this like building a ladder, and he's tied to a rope behind you.  As you climb, he will be dragged up, even if you put in the majority of the effort.  It may be slow going at times, he may help at times.  But you can do this!   

Isilme,

You have many great ideas here.  I've been looking a little into JADE.  I need to figure that out a little more.  It's easy when I'm staring at the computer screen.  It all makes sense.  I need practice dong it though.  I'm still digesting the fact that most of the responsibility for our communication depends on me.  I don't think that's fair.  It's not, but it's reality.  I've known this for many years, I just haven't had the tools to make it better.  The ladder analogy is a good one.  For 23 years his weight has been too much and I haven't been able to go up the ladder at all.  I'm starting to get stronger though and one of these days I may make it to rung 1!   

[Chosen]

Hi Verity,

I'm sorry you have to deal with all this splitting.  I feel pretty much the same as you do, and for a long while, when my uBPDh praises me, it meant nothing anymore... .as you say, I spend all the time waiting for the other shoe to drop... .and sooner or later it does.

He still splits, he's still undiagnosed, but after coming here I've learnt to regulate my own thoughts and feelings.  As others have pointed out, because feelings = facts for a pwBPD, both his praise and his criticisms are "true" and "untrue".  True because it's really what they are feeling at that moment, and untrue because it doesn't define how they really see you.  It changes quickly, and you can't really get a sense of the pwBPD's impression of you.  For example, they are unable to tell you "I love you, but I'm mad at you right now", as it would conflict with their feelings, and I think this is what makes it hardest for us nons.  What helped me is to try and hear beyond their words, try to take it with a pinch of salt (a large pinch) what they say at face value, whether it's good or bad, and know with your wise mind that it's usually somewhere in the middle.  It keeps my sanity in check. 

pwBPDs often use their strong words to "inflict" their emotions on us.  Try not to let that happen, or in any case, don't let him take you on a ride on that emotional rollercoaster.  We need to be relatively calm in order to be in a relationship with a pwBPD, as they are NOT emotionally stable beings.  Two unstable people makes a relationship very, very difficult!  Take care of yourself, know that your husband has extreme emotions, and when you are able to, detach a little bit so that you are not stuck in HIS emotional cycle.  Instead of seeing yourself as his wife, at those times when he's being difficult, try and detach a bit and look at him as a third party.  This helps me a little.  Are you willing to try and see if it will help you?

All the best,
Chosen

[Verity]

Hi Verity,

I'm sorry you have to deal with all this splitting.  I feel pretty much the same as you do, and for a long while, when my uBPDh praises me, it meant nothing anymore... .as you say, I spend all the time waiting for the other shoe to drop... .and sooner or later it does.

He still splits, he's still undiagnosed, but after coming here I've learnt to regulate my own thoughts and feelings.  As others have pointed out, because feelings = facts for a pwBPD, both his praise and his criticisms are "true" and "untrue".  True because it's really what they are feeling at that moment, and untrue because it doesn't define how they really see you.  It changes quickly, and you can't really get a sense of the pwBPD's impression of you.  For example, they are unable to tell you "I love you, but I'm mad at you right now", as it would conflict with their feelings, and I think this is what makes it hardest for us nons.  What helped me is to try and hear beyond their words, try to take it with a pinch of salt (a large pinch) what they say at face value, whether it's good or bad, and know with your wise mind that it's usually somewhere in the middle.  It keeps my sanity in check. 

pwBPDs often use their strong words to "inflict" their emotions on us.  Try not to let that happen, or in any case, don't let him take you on a ride on that emotional rollercoaster.  We need to be relatively calm in order to be in a relationship with a pwBPD, as they are NOT emotionally stable beings.  Two unstable people makes a relationship very, very difficult!  Take care of yourself, know that your husband has extreme emotions, and when you are able to, detach a little bit so that you are not stuck in HIS emotional cycle.  Instead of seeing yourself as his wife, at those times when he's being difficult, try and detach a bit and look at him as a third party.  This helps me a little.  Are you willing to try and see if it will help you?

All the best,
Chosen

Chosen,

Thank you for this perspective.  Yes, I think I'm starting to get the idea of emotional separation.  Right now it feels hard and "wrong" to me because I've never done that before.  I was wrapped up in believing whatever he thought of me at the time.  This creates so much confusion.  I am starting to be able to detach emotionally a bit and see his outbursts/affection as an immature showing of his emotions at the time. 

I think I am mourning the relationship I thought I had/wanted.  I am starting to realize that even with help, my husband will never be "normal" (as if that exists).  It's hard to give that up, but after 23 years of relationship hell I never had it to begin with.  It was just this fantasy in my head of what I thought our marriage was going to be. 

I'm a pretty reasonable person and will do anything that will help me stay in this marriage.  Sometimes it just sucks that I'm the one who can't lose control.  I'm the one who has to wade through my childhood issues, solve them and do better.  He may never get to that point.  Or he may get significantly better.  Who knows? 

I'm also dealing with a difficult child right now that stretches the bounds of my calmness and patience.  However, I am a believer in Christ and I know that God has and will continue to give me what I need to get through each day.  I am a visionary person (when I am healthy) and focusing on small baby steps day to day is difficult.  But, it's where I am right now.  I finally feel confident that I can and should do things to help myself heal so I can be better prepared to deal with my husband and son.

I don't understand these abbreviations... .what do they mean?  (I get the BPD part, just not the lower case)

uBPDh
pwBPD

Thanks!

[Educated_Guess]

I think I am mourning the relationship I thought I had/wanted.  I am starting to realize that even with help, my husband will never be "normal" (as if that exists).  It's hard to give that up, but after 23 years of relationship hell I never had it to begin with.  It was just this fantasy in my head of what I thought our marriage was going to be. 

I'm a pretty reasonable person and will do anything that will help me stay in this marriage.  Sometimes it just sucks that I'm the one who can't lose control.  I'm the one who has to wade through my childhood issues, solve them and do better.  He may never get to that point.  Or he may get significantly better.  Who knows? 

I'm also dealing with a difficult child right now that stretches the bounds of my calmness and patience.  However, I am a believer in Christ and I know that God has and will continue to give me what I need to get through each day.  I am a visionary person (when I am healthy) and focusing on small baby steps day to day is difficult.  But, it's where I am right now.  I finally feel confident that I can and should do things to help myself heal so I can be better prepared to deal with my husband and son.

Hi Verity!  Losing the belief of what you thought your life would be is difficult.  It felt as significant as a death to me and, in a way, it was a death of something.  Be kind to yourself and allow yourself the space and time to work through the grieving process.  You are grieving the loss of something that was real to you and that matters.

For people like us who are dreamers and achievers, people who just push forward by strength of will, it can be hard to slow down.  I think sometimes God puts us in a place where all we can do is take baby steps so that we slow down enough to see all the things we normally ignore or think we don't have the time to deal with it.

You are being reborn into a new level of awareness of yourself, of God and those you love.  It is okay to take baby steps.  You wouldn't expect a newborn to walk like an adult.  It is the same for you.  You are going through a process and you are growing.  It is ok to be where you are and move forward at the pace you are able to.

These two, short videos of a Lutheran pastor might be helpful for you.  They have certainly helped me in my recovery.

https://youtu.be/d62vERHSVig

https://youtu.be/ctcjNCrGyT8
"Blessed are those who can't fall apart because they have to keep it together for everyone else."

[once removed]

hi Verity,

i can certainly understand the toll that being pushed and pulled can take. i had a similar problem, and my solution tended to be to withdraw from the relationship, to greater and greater extents.

  putting a stop to positive behavior can break things down quickly. its a very hard place to rebuild from. reinforcement of good behavior on the other hand (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56206.msg913190#msg913190) can be a helpful start.

can you have a look here and tell us what stage your relationship is in, how you feel about it?

https://bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down

[Verity]

Hi Verity!  Losing the belief of what you thought your life would be is difficult.  It felt as significant as a death to me and, in a way, it was a death of something.  Be kind to yourself and allow yourself the space and time to work through the grieving process.  You are grieving the loss of something that was real to you and that matters.

For people like us who are dreamers and achievers, people who just push forward by strength of will, it can be hard to slow down.  I think sometimes God puts us in a place where all we can do is take baby steps so that we slow down enough to see all the things we normally ignore or think we don't have the time to deal with it.

You are being reborn into a new level of awareness of yourself, of God and those you love.  It is okay to take baby steps.  You wouldn't expect a newborn to walk like an adult.  It is the same for you.  You are going through a process and you are growing.  It is ok to be where you are and move forward at the pace you are able to.

These two, short videos of a Lutheran pastor might be helpful for you.  They have certainly helped me in my recovery.

https://youtu.be/d62vERHSVig

https://youtu.be/ctcjNCrGyT8
"Blessed are those who can't fall apart because they have to keep it together for everyone else."

Thank you Educated Guess!

You are so wise and full of encouragement.  I appreciate the time you've taken to respond to my thoughts.  I find in my life God needs to almost cripple me before I will listen to "slow down!"  So, depression and anxiety have set in and forced me into a very low-key existence right now.  I've basically backed out of every commitment I don't HAVE to do, but with 3 teenagers I still need to keep up with their things (I homeschool 2 of them, my 3rd is at the local college this year doing her Junior year of HS out there and my 4th is up living at a college doing his Senior year of HS up there). 

You are right about the rebirth and I really liked the first video link you sent.  I almost feel as though I have to figure out who I am altogether as growing up I was in a dysfunctional home where I was just who everyone else wanted/needed me to be.  So I don't think I've ever really known who I am.  Pretty sad for 45 (almost 46) years old!  But, here I am and I'll do the best I can with the new knowledge I'm gaining.

Thanks again for your wisdom!

[Verity]

can you have a look here and tell us what stage your relationship is in, how you feel about it?

https://bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down

Firmly in Stage 4.  For many years.  The only reason we are not divorced is because we are Christians and believe God brought us together.  We promised we would stand by each other in sickness and in health and I take that promise seriously.  Neither of us want to break up our family.  We are the only people in our immediate families that have not been divorced. 

I remember thinking years ago that even though we talk through things nothing gets resolved and being so confused by that.  Both my husband and I feel that.  I just never knew why and he still doesn't.  Now, knowing what I know (even just the small amount I've learned in the past month) I understand I've been feeding into his BPD.  I've tried for 23 years doing all the things I shouldn't have.  I always wondered why when I read a "make your marriage better" book the advice NEVER worked for me.  I thought I was failing as a good wife. 

Finally, I came to the end of my rope.  There was nothing left to try.  Until I ran across BPD.  For the first time I had hope that our terrible horrible existence had a name.  If it had a name, hopefully it had a solution.  The difficult part is I'm probably the biggest part of the solution.  That feels exhausting to me right now.  I can barely function and yet I have to stay calm, cool and collected in the midst of terrible hurt and pain (not only for my husband, but also for my son who I now understand likely has similar issues).  I know it will be a process.  I'm so glad to have found this board.  I'm trying to read the info out here, but it's so overwhelming right now of where to start. 

[once removed]

The only reason we are not divorced is because we are Christians and believe God brought us together.  We promised we would stand by each other in sickness and in health and I take that promise seriously.  Neither of us want to break up our family.  We are the only people in our immediate families that have not been divorced.

there are many unique and personal reasons members stick with their relationships. this is one of them. it is one i can relate to and appreciate.

I've tried for 23 years doing all the things I shouldn't have.

hey, in fairness to you, who hasnt 

If it had a name, hopefully it had a solution.  The difficult part is I'm probably the biggest part of the solution.  That feels exhausting to me right now.

i understand   

23 years in a difficult (to put it mildly) marriage is incredibly trying. you do sound exhausted.

it seems to me, first and foremost, is to get yourself a strong support system. this is critical. finding us, and reaching out for that support is a great step. you mentioned depression and anxiety. i would find myself a good therapist to supplement the support and feedback you can get here, and possibly get a meds evaluation. everything, and i mean everything, is so much harder with that kind of burden on you. it feels like there is no "up", no light at the end of the tunnel.

the tools can certainly help. i can imagine they seem overwhelming right now. start small. its much easier to learn to stop doing something than to learn how to do something. learning not to JADE, to not be invalidating, thats where i started. discovering the ways that we feed conflict and ending it can be so liberating, and it can give you a great deal of space. the good news is, you can practice these skills with anyone in your life. i use them all the time.

whats going on presently? you mentioned this:

We are in a time of stress because for the first time I am setting boundaries in our relationship and he doesn't like it.  It's hard for me to hold them, but I am.  This has caused this splitting to happen even more.

can you tell us more?

[Verity]

whats going on presently? you mentioned this:

can you tell us more?

Once Removed,

I have started seeing a therapist at a clinic that specializes in BPD and offers DBT.  I was very purposeful in where I chose.  My husband just started seeing someone this week.  The hope is something will show up through the assessments over the next couple weeks.  It feels good to have someone who knows exactly what I'm dealing with and she's also helping me to see where my crappy childhood gets in the way of me functioning at my best.  I've also gone on meds for depression/anxiety as well as sleeping pills to be able to sleep at night since I can't remember the last time I had a good night's sleep.  I feel like I've taken good steps there to start to get healthy.  I also have an amazing friend support system.  I have 4 dear best girlfriends (as well as many other friends) that support and love me.  God has been gracious to give me in my girlfriends what I never had in my family and don't have now with my husband.  I'm so grateful for them.  It's tough on them, though watching me go through all this.  They never knew truly how bad it's been because I never told them (because I never really understood our marriage hasn't been "normal")

All of this is new to me just since mid/end of July.  Since then I've been on a quest to find out what is at the root of so much unhealthiness.  One thing that is unbearable to me right now is the horrible spiral our "relationship talks" take.  Any time we have to talk about a "deep relationship issue" (and if it were up to my husband there is no end to these talks) it starts one place and spirals out of control into him berating me for all the things I've done in the past.  It's the same conversations over and over again with no resolution.  Anything I've done to change is not noticed or acknowledged by him.  That is one thing that HAS to stop.  So, I had to create a boundary of NO relationship talk.  I know this is a very stringent boundary and it's not forever, but having no idea how to stop these talks I just can't enter into them.  That set off all kinds of ugliness in my husband, which I knew would happen.  He even admitted to me when someone sets a boundary he hates it and it makes him want to cross the boundary even more.  This is indicative of our entire marriage and why I've never successfully been able to hold boundaries.  I just haven't known how and when he comes up against me I cave and everything starts all over again.  This time I am holding my boundary.  It was hard to begin with (he had many temper tantrums), but now over a few weeks he's surrendered to it.  It is terribly hard for him and he will push it every so often, but I stand firm and tell him I won't discuss this and walk away if I need to. 

Through this it also became evident that I need even more space so he ended up (in a temper tantrum) moving down to our son's room who just left for college.  I was going to go down there if he didn't so that was fine with me, except he did it angrily and without talking to me.  Then, after one night he mysteriously ends up in bed with me again. I wake up surprised to find him there, my alert bells go off and I can't get back to sleep.  After that I talked to him and he agreed to stay down in my son's room for the time being. Basically, we are "separating" within the house.  Neither of us wants either of us to leave, but I require so much space right now to begin to feel safe. 

He is slowly understanding my need for space to heal right now.  It just takes so much to get through to him.  He came to me and said he finally understood I could not have relationship talks with him after I had to forcefully almost yell at him that "I CAN NOT DO THIS RIGHT NOW!"  He said, "Now I understand.  Before I thought it was just information you were giving me so I didn't listen.  But once you said it firmly and loudly I understood."  Ahhhhhh... .That is so confusing to me.  Why is it when I calmly request something he disregards it as information?  I'm supposed to remain calm, cool and collected, but when I do he doesn't think I'm serious or something.  When I finally get exasperated and yell or cry or become emotional all of a sudden he "gets" it.  But sometimes when I get emotional it backfires on me and he intensifies and everything gets bad.  It's like this line that is constantly moving and I have no idea where it is from one day to another.

The hard part right now is his pattern of idealization/depreciation of me is coming quicker and quicker.  Before I would spend up to a few weeks as "good wife" as I call it.  Now, it's maybe a week if I'm lucky and then he flips out about something and I'm bad wife again.  That is hard on me as I haven't learned to regulate my own feelings despite what he says and thinks about me.  I know that will come, but especially when these moods come out of no where it's very disarming.

Well, I don't know if that answered your question or not... .thank you for your time in responding to me!  I appreciate it.

[isilme]

I'm still digesting the fact that most of the responsibility for our communication depends on me.  I don't think that's fair.  It's not, but it's reality.  I've known this for many years, I just haven't had the tools to make it better

The tools make a big difference.  Also, your perspective can help.  There is a common idea, which I think is actually harmful overall if you delve into it, that all relationships are supposed to be 50/50 at all times.  Really, it's 100/100, of what each partner is able and capable of giving.  I find for me, it really helps to keep resentment at bay by telling myself BPD is an emotional disability.  H gives me all he can... .he just started with a cup less full than mine, less easy to refill, etc.  So I while it can be disappointing he can only come to me with half a cup, and I've got like 2 cups to give, it feels unfair.  But, if he's giving all he has, I need to recognize that and accept it and appreciate the effort - giving even 1/2 a cup with BPD is not easy.  Tasks we take for granted as simple is not for them.  And even worse, they don't easily see that their way of thinking is actually pretty disordered, so to them, it looks like we're hiding all our cups from them because we are mean or want to hurt them. 

So, empathy on your part can go a long way to reaching him, over time.  Validation to me is not a rote expression of "I hear you're mad, gotcha."  It's trying to say, "I have the empathy needed to imagine how you feel, and see it's not a good place.  I would like to pull you out of it if you'd just take my hand, but recognize you may need to sit in this place for a while.  I'm here when you're ready, and even if I leave you be for a bit, I am still here for you."

JADE - ugh.  I know it, read about it, but often can't stop from doing it, only realize it halfway once the argument is in full swing.  Then, I'm like, "crap, I know better, why did I engage?"  I guess stopping in mid-JADE is better than continuing, so maybe it's progress?  But really, when I look at it on these boards, JADE really is a cascade of invalidation, and that triggers BPD. 

If you believe you can explain or justify your differing views, theirs must be wrong... .therefore, you are telling them to accept blame or shame, even if it's for something ridiculous, like mishearing a word.  H tends to mumble, his "yea", and "nah" sound very close.  So I get things "wrong".  He can't accept that he does not enunciate.  It's always on me for "never" listening.  This can lead to a full on rage, over something so simple, something other people can be like, whoops, sorry, I should have spoken up/more clearly. 

Mourning what you wish you could have is normal.  I don't think I've had to do that with my r/s so much, as with my "relationship" with my BPD parents.  I end up in cycles of grief as I watch my friends raise their kids with consistent love, and realize just how much I was shortchanged.  Since I am NC with my parents, it's a lot easier to keep them now as abstracts in my head, than try to deal with the real people.  The abstracts I can forgive, and realize they were just messed up people, and giving each other their half cups had little to none left for the kid they made.  In person I think my feelings would be very messy. 

Mourn as you need to, and look at what you CAN have.  I think one thing about being content is having realistic expectations.  If you know your H only has a half cup most days, and you don't expect more than a half cup, you keep yourself grounded, and when he manages to find a full cup for you, it's a nice surprise. 

[once removed]

So, I had to create a boundary of NO relationship talk.  I know this is a very stringent boundary and it's not forever, but having no idea how to stop these talks I just can't enter into them. 

it is stringent, and it wont be sustainable in the long run. the tools can really help. there are healthier places and ways to steer these talks, in times of calm and greater stability. there are also tools that can help deescalate the conflict rather than fuel it (i recommend learning those first). and sometimes, taking a time out from these talks, when theyre only fueling conflict can be healthy for both parties.

When I finally get exasperated and yell or cry or become emotional all of a sudden he "gets" it.  But sometimes when I get emotional it backfires on me and he intensifies and everything gets bad.  It's like this line that is constantly moving and I have no idea where it is from one day to another.

generally speaking, trying to find the moving line is walking on eggshells and will trip you up. consistency, above all, is key. firmness and assertiveness, and follow through, are critical.

[Verity]

Thank you so much to all of you.  Such good insight and advice.  I need to do some more reading and learning!  I appreciate each of you that has responded to my questions/comments.  I'm getting the hang of validation and I'm starting to understand that some of the tools I may even already do, but I just need to understand they are necessary and my responsibility instead of looking at it as babying him or thinking "why should I be the one who has to do this?"  Yes, shifting my focus will be helpful. 

I had an interesting experience several months ago (before I had any idea about what was going on in our relationship) where I was just crying out to God one night asking Him, "Why is it always me who has to change?"  "Why is it always me who has to be patient?"  "Why do I always have to be the calm one?"  A still small voice responded to me, "Because you are able."

I didn't like that response at the time and really didn't understand exactly what it meant.  Now, I am starting to see what it meant.  This is what I am called and purposed to do.  Not enable my husband (as I have been doing), but to change and grow so that he can change and grow with me.  I know my husband desires to do that.  He loves me so much and is desperate to "fix" our relationship.  I need to do this not only for my husband and my sake, but for one of our son's sake as well.  He is likely struggling with similar issues, so whatever I learn in dealing with my husband will serve to help my son as well.

[Chosen]

I don't understand these abbreviations... .what do they mean?  (I get the BPD part, just not the lower case)

uBPDh
pwBPD

uBPDh= undiagnosed BPD husband
pwBPD= person with BPD

Verity, we're in a very similar predicament (although your relationship is much longer than mine).  I also believe in Christ, and I'm constantly reminded of something I read about marriage: it's not to make us happy, it's to make us holy and be more like Him.  A lot of times I feel that life is unfair, and I get questions in my head as to "why is it me", and "why do I have to be stable/ the one to change/ the one who apologises/ etc."?  And then I'm reminded to be thankful, because at least 1 party in the marriage would like to change themselves so as to change the relationship dynamic.  This means there's hope.  Have you read stuff by Stormie Omartian?  I love the book "The Power of a Praying Wife" and "The Power of Prayer to Change your Marriage".  I love how she doesn't say the spouses of difficult people are victims, and that we have a very power tool- the tool of prayer to help change things. 

I fail a lot of times, but I take whatever I can from the baby steps we make.  And although our marriages may never be as "easy" as some non-BPD relationships are (and a lot of them aren't, we just can't see their difficulties), it can get better.  Hang in there!

[once removed]

"why should I be the one who has to do this?" 
... .
"Because you are able."

BPD makes for an inherent relationship skills deficit. we are in a better position to lead the relationship into healthier territory than our partners are. now, speaking generally if not especially about myself, a lot of us find our skills, our ways and means of coping, how we respond to adversity, needed some work too. we really cant make things better, for ourselves, for the relationship, before we learn our side in the conflict and how to end it.

the good news is that sometimes, that alone is enough. the hope is that our partners will follow our lead. and in the worst case scenario, we get in a more centered, emotionally healthier place, from which we can make better choices.

one word of caution pertaining to my own experience: dont become a martyr for love, either. there were many times i said to myself that i needed to "take it", and that i needed to be stronger at "taking it"... .turning the other cheek, that sort of thing, because i was the "stronger one". i equated all of that with love, and i began to see myself as superior to my partner in a lot of ways. that is one of many traps that people with codependent tendencies can steer into. it really isnt what being the emotional leader in these relationships is about.