Initiation of a conversation during active dysregulation

[waitingwife]

When I feel like I have w handle on this BPD dysregulations, I got bummed. I had posted a few weeks ago about the coincidence of  uBPDH’s father having a heart attack and H weaning off his zoloft. We just returned from a wonderful 1 week vacation and uBPDH is slowly dysregulating again. He is withdrawing, not really saying anything but quite the opposite. We have a 8 year old DD and a puppy so we have a lot of shared duties in the household. When i try to ask him to do his duties, I get the cold stare or a cold “what” and it either gets done or not. I do whatever is not done coz one can’t always wait to let the dog out or drop off the child to an activity & such. I don’t have a problem right now to do it as I’m sure he’s dealing with a lot of mental worry about his dad and them being so abusive. He has not talked to them in weeks and we don’t know if his dad is okay. When he tries to contact them, there’s always an unreal demand of money from them and if we’re unable to help then they get verbally toxic with him. So I don’t mind picking up extra household duties at all co uBPDH is VERY good with doing his share for the most part.
My issue is I “cannot” exist in the negative space between us that is right now present. I feel like his enemy with either his cold andwers or silent treatment or just any lack of communication. So this morning while having coffee, I said to him- I “FEEL” a negative space between us, do you feel it? His one word answer was “NO”. So I said I am feeling it and there are a few things I have to tell you to do which I’m ot comfortable doing right now due to the negativity I feel. So until that is present, I am going to go work out at the gym in the evenings when you return from work starting tomorrow. He says okay, do whatever pleases you. End of conversation.
I have worked cery hard in therapy to ask the “I feel” questions coz I would be overcome with anxiety before to ask that questions for the worry of what is to come.  But if he denies there’s anything wrong hen how can we find a solution to the problem I feel is present - communication breakdown?

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[pearlsw]

Hi waitingwife,

Oh, I remember the in-laws who want money! I didn't know about the heart attack, etc. Thank you for updating us!

I guess going off the medication is affecting his moods, right? I am so sorry though! I know how it is to feel out of sync with a partner! When your mood is in one place and their mood is just so different and the communication breaks down.

I know how hard it is to have patience through such a time. Do you think this could persist for awhile? Sometimes just taking a giant step back and depersonalizing can help. He may just be in a place where he can't talk, cope well, or want to reach out to you. You doing your own thing is good, while also letting him know you will be back and are available, but you just keep moving on and feeling good and taking care of things. I hope for your sake this does not go on for long!

I know how hard it is. I can picture times I was looking forward to seeing/talking to someone I love and they were in a completely different mental space. It hurts. It hurts.

Why did he decide to go off his medication?

warmly, pearl.

[an0ught]

The point of stating emotions is to help him to regulate. It is not about solving problems. Voicing / validating emotions works if the feeling that is voiced is true. If he responds with ‚no‘ and does not freak out then it sounds to me like he was not invalidated (anger would be shown) and quite possibly the validation hit home  . Validation is like drip feeding. It takes a while accumulate.

You can‘t force a conversation on someone who does not want. Tell him it seems like he needs his space but you are there when he‘s ready.

Also the stronger and calmer you are the easier it is for him to bring things up. Don‘t make his moods the center of your universe.

[waitingwife]

Thank you for understanding. I was very calm when I approached him with the I feel question. After he said No, I backed off giving him the space. So in about 5 minutes, he called me and holding my hand said, he is not angry but I’m the one who is upset and not talking inspite of him apologizing to me.
Okay back story about 2 days ago:
We had 4 of our family friends over and were hosting a party. While serving dinner & desserts, I was opening a 2nd box of dessert coz the first one was almost finished and there were quite a few friends who had not eaten dessert. So my mom who was also visiting for dinner said wait before you open up all packs of dessert and hubby muttered under his breath- she doesn’t understand all those important things of seeing how much is needed, she’ll just open everything up to be served whether it is needed or not. I just took a deep breath, opened the dessert, and stepped back coz I knew his emotions were building up. My mom is another trigger for me many times. Come to see, the 2nd packet of dessert was all polished off and nothing remaining. So when all guests including my parents left, I went upto him and said, I’m ot sure why you & my mom did not want me to open the 2nd pack  dessert when there was barely anything left in the first one. I said it hurt my feelings how you were muttering stuff under your breath. He was like what, I didn’t mean it that way. I said I’m sure you didn’t mean it, however, it made me feel like an irresponsible person who doesn’t care about wasting food without a thought. I also went on to say, the dessert was all over today but there was a chance it wouldn’t be over but when we have guests, I said I don’t like for my guests to ask if I have more, instead I like to make sure we have enough & more food to offer. I am a ery responsible person who doesn’t waste food or resources. So he apologized and we went to bed. The full blown ST started the morning we woke up.
So this is the apology he was talking about when he called me back to talk. He said I’m holding onto the grudge against him. I told him in the calmest voice(and I felt very calm also) that my earlier self didn’t muster the courage to come talk with you and tell you if my feelings wete hurt m and that would either turn into resentment or sadness or anger but the fact that I could tell you how I felt made my feelings evaporate. So he said yes, we both are changing and that’s good & bad. We will get through such times together. You don’t keep anything inside and I’m also doing things differently and not blowing my top. So its hard for both of us, let’s hang in there. He knows I’m working very hard in therapy to step outside my fearful self and express myself coz earlier I’f get passive aggressive from bottling up emotions or filled with sadness trying to prove my intentions. After therapy, i have learnt radical acceptance that I have no control over his reality. At that point, I said I don’t mind hanging in there but I will not exist in the negative space we share and don’t want our D8 to be a witness to it. I asked him if we both don’t even talk or can’t see eye to eye, what’s the point of me being in the house when he returns from work? I said I want to channel my feelings into something positive and the best thing I could think of is working out to release some of the endorphins. I said I understand uour need for space and want to respect it.
We ended the the conversation very amicably and after that he was less withdrawn and trying hard to connect. I went out with D8 to shop and run errands and meet a friend. He definitely was a different and much nicer person to be around when I got back home.
So overall, it was much better than the older times and part of the codependent me still feels so bad about not being a part of his solution to his mental storm but I’m working on the acceptance of he likes to solve his stuff in a different way than me.
I think switching around to I feel while starting a conversation makes a big difference and it helps me to keep the focus on myself.
Pearl- he has not stopped the zoft, just is taking half the dosage. Coz lastyear his therapist recommended he take zoloft for 1 year for depression/anxiety. So they got a primary care involved  and the plan while starting was to wean it off in 1 year. So he went back to the primary and together they decided to start weaning it off.

[pearlsw]

Hi waitingwife,

Thank you for the update and letting us know more about what you are dealing with. It really provides a lot of insight into the dynamics of things!

One of the things that is so difficult about this illness is it asks of us to completely retool the way we speak with our partners. That can't happen overnight and it is hard to undo the typical ways we have of speaking. For example, in my case, I thought I was a pretty reasonable and fair person and most of the time spoke in a fairly good way with any partner I had. But even the nicest of us can be invalidating and not know it! I sure found out I was at times!

I think it is great that you are working with your counselor and finding your voice, finding a way to speak up when things are said that make you feel not respected or understood. It is important to have that support.

I am no expert, perhaps others will come along and be able to take a close read and see how things might have gone differently. But all in all, at least that night it seems to have gone well enough. You remained calm, the guests were happy, no big fight that night. It was not until the next day that the silent treatment arrived. Is that right?

It is very good to stay calm! That is a huge plus point in terms of making better outcomes possible. Anything you can do to slow down your reaction and "read" the feelings of the situation, being able to listen past his negative tone/words is also helpful.

When it comes down to it, really, you are all on the same side of things in that you all want things to go well for the guests. It is stressful to have guests, and we all have slightly different ways of understanding what that means exactly. That used to be an issue for my SO and I because we come from two different cultures that handle guests a bit differently - each valid, but just different. It could get very stressful in the heat of the moment, and naturally mistakes were made and misunderstandings came up and feelings were hurt.

I wonder if a tool like SET could still be useful in cutting through such issues? Or at least the SE part? SET

This is another version of the tool in a short video: 3 Minute Lesson On Ending Conflict

Or even if the "I" statements could help. Rather than blame him or correct him I wonder if listening to the core of what he is saying and working from there might help?

As a regular person who fumbles with communication tools but has a big   I'd just want to say this, not knowing if it was "right", but just as my best effort at this point in my life: Having guests is naturally a bit stressful for all of us. We all want things to go well, but we all approach what that means a little bit differently. I hear that you have ideas about how to serve the desserts, I have ideas about that too. Bottom line making the guests happy and keeping our stress as low as possible by working as team would be really nice!

Hopefully others will join and offer corrections and critiques for both of us while we try our best to learn and improve!

I've been studying SET a lot lately, yet no matter how much I study it doesn't quite feel natural, but I'm working on it!

warmly, pearl.

[waitingwife]

Hi Pearl,
What you said makes so much sense, I’m so grateful for this board. I struggle with empathy and hence validation. I skipped the part where I should’ve said I know you also want our guests to feel comfortable and want them to have a nice time. Think I was a bit triggered coz before the guests arrives, he was building up some of his opinions on one family friend who is a little dramatic. He kept saying to me, the next time please don’t invite them coz they caused some drama before they rsvp’ed. I said okay, we’ll cross that bridge when the next time comes but for now let’s all be inclusive of each other and focus on the good tome we’re going to have.
The the more I think, I think my empathy/validation skill starts going down coz I start sensing his dysregulation way before it reaches the stage we did. How do I continue to have validation for a person who already sees me like his enemy? Where do I start?

[an0ught]

It all starts with acknowleding that you feel negative about him. That he is behaving hostile. Without accepting in the moment the emotions as they are there can not be progress on the validation front. Unlearning to shy away from spelling out dire feelings is half the journey. The other half is consistent application and minimizing unnecessary invalidation. Healthy relationships have a validation / invalidation ratio of > 5/1. For us that means spelling out a lot of negative emotions initially as long as our partner is stuck in the blues.

[waitingwife]

It all starts with acknowleding that you feel negative about him. That he is behaving hostile. Without accepting in the moment the emotions as they are there can not be progress on the validation front. Unlearning to shy away from spelling out dire feelings is half the journey. The other half is consistent application and minimizing unnecessary invalidation. Healthy relationships have a validation / invalidation ratio of > 5/1. For us that means spelling out a lot of negative emotions initially as long as our partner is stuck in the blues.

Hi an0ught,
Can you please explain more of this in regards to my situation so that I can understand it more in depth? So does me accepting that he is being hostile & hurting my feelinngs constitute as the first step in the journey towards SET? I struggled for years to tell him that he is hurting my feelingns or being disrespectful towards me and now I cannot keep it inside of me after my therapist has time & again reiterated the need of honest expression of my feelings so as to not let the unexpressed feelinngs turn into resentment. I might have to fine tune the expression more by mixing in SE? Maybe I skip to the Truth in the SET way faster than I should?

[Skip]

Maybe I skip to the Truth in the SET way faster than I should?

The SE is by far and away, the most important part of SET. It takes a while to see this and it takes time to learn how to phrase meaningful (rather than obligatory or contrived) SE.

The way I do it is to first write the "Truth". I get this down so I can stop obsessing about it.

Second, I try to think of how he/she is seeing things, knowing form experience what that might be, and most importantly listening to what he/she said. Using someone's words back with them really connects. To be honest, books could be written about refining this skill, so be patient with yourself and him, it takes time.

Support (S) is easy. The warmer the better.

Now when OI go back to "T", I can see my frustration in it, and I clean that out.

Now I have something constructive.

Remember, validation and empathy are not for disarming conflict, they are a way of life that can also help in disarming conflict. Validating and listening to his feelings on a routine basis helps. Sharing your feeling needs (in a constructive way) on a routine basis is also import.

[pearlsw]

Hey Skip,

Thanks for the tips and encouragement on SET!

waitingwife, what do you think?

sincerely, pearl.

[waitingwife]

The SE is by far and away, the most important part of SET. It takes a while to see this and it takes time to learn how to phrase meaningful (rather than obligatory or contrived) SE.

The way I do it is to first write the "Truth". I get this down so I can stop obsessing about it.

Second, I try to think of how he/she is seeing things, knowing form experience what that might be, and most importantly listening to what he/she said. Using someone's words back with them really connects. To be honest, books could be written about refining this skill, so be patient with yourself and him, it takes time.

Support (S) is easy. The warmer the better.

Now when OI go back to "T", I can see my frustration in it, and I clean that out.

Now I have something constructive.

Remember, validation and empathy are not for disarming conflict, they are a way of life that can also help in disarming conflict. Validating and listening to his feelings on a routine basis helps. Sharing your feeling needs (in a constructive way) on a routine basis is also import.

I see how it is important to share my “need”. So in SET, are BPD’s not capable of hearing out their partner’s feelings? My need in this scenario was “to not occupy/be in the negative space that uBPDH was creating” and my feeling was “feeling disrespected & hurt”. Should I have skipped the feeling expression all together or found another outlet/person/therapist to express it to? Btw, I have made an appointment with my therapist but it’s not until 2 weeks so we can process this together. These kind of blowups/conflicts ste far & in between but I try tonalways seek my therapist when I move off center. She also fulfills my need of a unbiased sounding board.

[an0ught]

As Skip explained SET is about delivering truth. A lot of the value of SET is actually the sorting of emotions and facts for ourselves. We tend to be confused too... .

Validation alone for me is often about sorting their emotions from our own. In the light of strong confused, angry emotional projection it is hard to truely know what we feel ourselves. Spelling out their feelings provides them validation and confirms to us that they are foreign, not ours, nothing to worry, we can be calm.

I have found it sonetimes useful to do SET with T being my emotions. I also have a need to be understood. I know I usually can‘t dump my feelings in a surprising manner and I know she is struggling a lot with herself so capacity is limited. But at times I do it via SET and over time it has helped her to better read my emotional temperature.

Our role never can be fixing them but we can provide clearity and grounding in clear, honest emotions and facts. It all strarts with grounding ourselves. ‚Sorting‘ helps us to decouple, detach in a loving manner. Things get more stable when we have a bit of perspective.

[Skip]

It all strarts with grounding ourselves. ‚Sorting‘ helps us to decouple, detach in a loving manner. Things get more stable when we have a bit of perspective.

SET is a great tool AND, as an0ught says, it helps ground us. By thinking hard to find a meaningful empathy statement, we start to see where we are ungrounded, and we can fix that.

I see how it is important to share my “need”. So in SET, are BPD’s not capable of hearing out their partner’s feelings? My need in this scenario was “to not occupy/be in the negative space that uBPDH was creating” and my feeling was “feeling disrespected & hurt”.

With anyone, but BPD in particular, dealing with behavior (rather than concepts) or needs (rather than feelings) is more effective.

My SO and I had a full, hard to coordinate day on Sunday and we were running about 10 mimutes behind getting out of the house. As we were loading the car (literally standing at the car putting everything in the trunk, she said (4 times) "hurry, you're making us late". This was bothering me because I felt like she was blaming me for the situation and was wanting something that couldn't be done (we couldn'y go any faster.

I could have gone into a long explanation of how I felt blamed and pushed and in a no way situation. She would have responded with a bucket of emotions just as deep.

"E"  Instead, I told her that I understood why she was feeling frustrated (I'm, summarizing)

"T" I said that telling me to hurry 4 times is not helpful - twice should be the maximum - the message is heard at 2x.

She told me 7 hours later that it was a bad idea to say it 4 times, two was a good idea. Hug.

My point is that all the expansive emotion stuff stayed in the buckets, we agreed to a solution.


SET:

Me: The most important thing for me this morning is to to the meeting point on time.
I'm not getting that done. You have a excellent reputation for being timely and dependable and you don't deserve to have that reputation damaged or to make others feel disrespected because I'm slowing you down this morning [I don't think I was the cause and we were not late, but I'm giving in to this because its more important right now for her to feel heard than to split hairs on who is wrong).
When you tell me 4 times, "hurry, you're making us late", when there is nothing I can do to make things happen faster, it just creates a lot of tension and starts our day off with a fight. If you say it twice - I get it. I want us to be on time AND have a nice day. Next time, lets get an earlier start.

Her: <silence | Negative feelings blow over in 20 minutes.>

How could you have handled the food comment this way? Can you make a SET model now?

[waitingwife]

SET is a great tool AND, as an0ught says, it helps ground us. By thinking hard to find a meaningful empathy statement, we start to see where we are ungrounded, and we can fix that.

With anyone, but BPD in particular, dealing with behavior (rather than concepts) or needs (rather than feelings) is more effective.

My SO and I had a full, hard to coordinate day on Sunday and we were running about 10 mimutes behind getting out of the house. As we were loading the car (literally standing at the car putting everything in the trunk, she said (4 times) "hurry, you're making us late". This was bothering me because I felt like she was blaming me for the situation and was wanting something that couldn't be done (we couldn'y go any faster.

I could have gone into a long explanation of how I felt blamed and pushed and in a no way situation. She would have responded with a bucket of emotions just as deep.

"E"  Instead, I told her that I understood why she was feeling frustrated (I'm, summarizing)

"T" I said that telling me to hurry 4 times is not helpful - twice should be the maximum - the message is heard at 2x.

She told me 7 hours later that it was a bad idea to say it 4 times, two was a good idea. Hug.

My point is that all the expansive emotion stuff stayed in the buckets, we agreed to a solution.


SET:

Me: The most important thing for me this morning is to to the meeting point on time.
I'm not getting that done. You have a excellent reputation for being timely and dependable and you don't deserve to have that reputation damaged or to make others feel disrespected because I'm slowing you down this morning [I don't think I was the cause and we were not late, but I'm giving in to this because its more important right now for her to feel heard than to split hairs on who is wrong).
When you tell me 4 times, "hurry, you're making us late", when there is nothing I can do to make things happen faster, it just creates a lot of tension and starts our day off with a fight. If you say it twice - I get it. I want us to be on time AND have a nice day. Next time, lets get an earlier start.

Her: <silence | Negative feelings blow over in 20 minutes.>

How could you have handled the food comment this way? Can you make a SET model now?

Wow, you explained it to well here. Going back to my conversation, I should’ve instead said:
S: I see how you did not want all of that dessert getting wasted if our guests did not want anymore.
E: Not opening the dessert was one way of making sure it will not get wasted.
T: I like for our guests to have enough food if they need it especially when we have 20 people over and I can’t keep checking if more food is needed while hosting so many people.

Does that sound better?

[Skip]

Does that sound better?

Yes... .

Here is a possibility (these are great practice pieces):

S: This is our party and how we do it is should reflect as much of you as it does me. We're in these together... .it is family.

E: You are so right. When we have these parties, it costs a lot of money, and we don't need to add to that by wasting a lot of food.

T: We both want our guests to feel welcomed and that there is plenty of food so that the are not timid about eating, right? I think that means there is going to be some waste. I'm doing my best not to waste too much, but I agree with you, we can do better.

I'd like to have your help the next time to make this more economical. You can help me. We could pick different desserts or containers that will avoid as much waste... .

waitingwife, how does that feel?  See how I'm giving in, but not submitting? Next party you can say, hey Tom, how do we want to handle dessert. He might get involved. He might say "whatever". If he says whatever, remind him that there will probably be more wast than he likes and he needs to help or hold his tongue.  If he complains, he owes you $5.00.  

Can you tune it further?

[waitingwife]

Wow, the same conflict looks so different when looking at it objectively. I absolutely LOVE how you demonstrated the SET in this case. Now the question is, how do I make that come so naturally in these chaotic situations? Are there any questions I can ask myself to work in the SET before saying anything? It’s like earlier I had a need to bottle my emotions out of fear and now I have a need to state my truth out loud. But I see how I need to be in the middle.
Love the humor mixed in for the next time we deal with dessert ❤️
Thank you SO very much to be my sounding board here

[Skip]

Now the question is, how do I make that come so naturally in these chaotic situations?

Practice back here. Help other people practice.

This is a powerful skill, but like skiing, it takes practice.

[waitingwife]

Thank you for the help and yes, Skip. I’m going to need to practice more & more. I’ve noticed I’d struggle with the T(ruth) and now that I say it more, it’s become easier. I feel the anxiety when I say it but it’s manageable. Just like the T, I’ll try to make a conscious effort to use the SE before the T. I’ll also ask my T for some of the quick cheat sheet kinda tips to bring me into SE when I into full blown stating the T mode.
Thanks again for your valuable & precious input and helping me come back to center