Help with Boundaries please

[Angie59]

Good morning everyone!

I was going to start a new thread having to do with boundaries, but thought I would just continue with this one, as it still has to do with a broken heart.  I think you are all right regarding the fact that our emotions don't always get the message that logic gives us. 

So, boundaries:  There is a tablet that my son has at his house.  There are pictures of his uBPD girlfriend on there in various forms of nudity (some full frontal nudity sitting in a provocative way), along with pictures of her showing various forms of BDSM.  My husband and I watch our GS2 every Thursday and Friday.  These pictures were first brought to our attention when our GS2 came to us with that screen open of his mothers' pictures because the photo icon was right next to his favorite kids show icon.  He brought it to my husband and asked him to fix it. 

My husband and I do not feel comfortable with the tablet hanging around in plain view of our GS2, because when he sees it, he will surely want to play with it.  We do not believe this is an appropriate thing for him to have to see.  We have tried to make a boundary with our son that if we see the tablet out where GS2 will see it, then we will take it into our son's bedroom, place it on his nightstand and close the door so it will not be in plain sight.

He said okay to this and the first week it worked out great.  The tablet was no where to be seen!  We were happy.  Then the second week came along.  We walked into the house on Thursday morning and low and behold, there is GS2 playing on the tablet right in front of us.  Once my son saw him with the tablet, he just said, here, Daniel Tiger is on TV for you so you don't need this, and put it on the charger right on the end table in front of us!  Still i plain view for GS2 to want it later. 

This happened as well on Friday when I found the tablet in GD4's bed, as they use it as a nighttime way to put her to bed.  She gets to play the tablet for a period of time before going to sleep.  I won't even go there regarding a 4 year old little girl seeing her mother in these pictures or what kind of psychological damage it could do to her.  I feel it is saying, "this is okay," in so many words.

So on both Thursday and Friday, we removed the tablet from the end table on Thursdays and from her bed on Friday and placed them back where I told him they would be - on his night stand in his bedroom with the door closed. 

I heard through a relative that he was angry and said, "Well, it's our tablet."  "This isn't the 50's anymore." 

I feel that yes, it is your tablet, and you are free to do with it what you want.  However, when I am in charge of your son, we feel uncomfortable with him having access to it.  This is our boundary that we want respected. 

As far as it not being the 50's anymore - what difference does it make what decade it is?  These are not appropriate pictures for your children to see!  I will go a step further and say I don't feel it is appropriate for her to being taking these pictures by a professional photographer at that!  What in the world are they being used for?  While none of that is our business, it is just our way of thinking and I know we cannot impose that on them.  Children, to me, and what they are being exposed to, is another story.

Any thoughts, opinions, etc... .that anyone would like to share?  I just finished reading for the third time the article in the Learning Center on setting boundaries.  My son was not raised this way whatsoever.  He never saw me go on trips with other men (as his uBPD girlfriend has done), much less see nude photos of me in variety of poses and situations!  I feel like I am losing him.  How can one's values and belief system change so drastically?

I also know I need to concentrate on me and take care of myself.  I do believe that making myself a better me will help considerably.  I guess I keep asking the above questions about my son because I'm trying to make some sort of sense of him, all the while keeping a relationship with him. 

Angie
 

[Angie59]

Hello everyone!   

I have really been struggling with boundaries a lot lately.  I know that for my own good, my own sanity and my own health and well-being, I must go forward and set some boundaries, but there is some game playing going on that I'm not sure how to react to.  Perhaps I can get some advice from you on the following situation.

I had posted before about holiday time coming up and how to set boundaries with that.  My true gut feelings right now are that it is not healthy for me to be around my son's uBPD girlfriend or her parents.

The reason for this is that (repeating things from past posts), her behavior is making me physically ill.  She is now, at this moment that I write this, enjoying a vacation with the same man she went out of the country with in April.  This is a place where my son and her had planned to go.  My son cannot afford a trip like that and she knows it, as he has managed to get himself into a financial hole trying to pay and totally support all household bills and expenses for himself, two kids and her.  Since he is now financially depleted, I guess she decided to get involved with this man who is literally twice her age to be able to be wined and dined and travel.

Her daughter speaks openly about missing her mother and her never being home, which is apparently falling on deaf ears.  The GS4's behavior is escalating in terms of acting out behavior - so much anger - and I don't blame her.  My heart breaks for her. 

So, let's see, we have someone who is repeatedly cheating on my son, openly posting pictures of the trip, practically rubbing it in his face, absent mother taking its toll on her children, and top it off with the totally nude pics she had taken by a professional photographer to do with... .what?  These are not pics that are showing in an artistic way, the human body.  I am familiar with those.  These are nothing short of pornography, and I have my ideas that she may be making money on them.  She does not try to hide any of these things.  Her parents support her 100% in all that she does and make it clear they are always there for her.

So we have the holidays coming up.  After the disaster last year on "Solstice" which is what they celebrate and we attend, it is really just a time to have GD4 open her gifts, as well as GS2, and have dinner.  No religious affiliation or any ceremonial type activities.  So after I felt the misery inside after last year's Solstice, I made it clear to my son that we will no longer be attending.  My feelings were backed up by the fact that our holiday is Christmas Day and she never shows up for that day, so why are we obligated to show up for their day?  The ole you do what I want, but I have no rules to live by. 

In view of her behavior and what she stands for as a person, along with her parents who "back her up" in this Land of Oz she lives in, I feel it best that I stay away from her and her parents.  My mind, body, and heart are giving me these messages, and it is not good for me. 

So... .I learned this morning that they will still have the get-together, but they are not going to call it "Solstice."  It will just be a get-together so this way, my feelings of her not respecting our Christmas Day are now null and void. 

I'm too old and tired to be playing games.  I just want peace in my life right now.  So my son will have to know the truth about how I feel about being around her and her parents.  I live with this fear that if we don't show up, we may end up losing our contact with not only my son, but the kids.  I know what she is capable of - get her where it hurts.  She knows that is what hurts me most and that is the grandkids.  I also know sh ehas tried to "paint us black" to our son as well. 

I am so conflicted.  I just can't do this anymore.   

[BabyButterfly]

Hi Angie. It sounds like you are having a really hard time with your son and his girlfriend making different life choices that you don't approve of. As a grandparent, you unfortunately don't get to make decisions on boundaries and values for your grandchildren. You must respect their rules and their values when you're babysitting. You might have different rules in your own house, to a degree. For example, you can ask that the problematic tablet not be brought into your home, but it seems like overstepping THEIR boundaries to tell them where they can keep the tablet. A useful suggestion might be moving the photos to a less accessible location or screen locking it so that an adult needs to open up the application the child is using.

If you believe the children are experiencing emotional distress, the best thing you can do is love them and give them positive attention without reference to your judgments' about their parents behavior (which can be confusing and distressing for children). You can express your concerns to the parents, but you have to accept their parenting decisions. If you see evidence of true abuse and neglect, you're allowed to report that to child protective services. Unfortunately, there's a lot of non-optimal parenting that doesn't rise to the level of intervention by CPS that we just have to accept. Maybe you yourself were not always an optimal parent, even. Compassion is important.

It also sounds like they might have an open relationship and be involved with sex positive/kink culture. These are different values than yours, but it is their choice and you will have to accept that. Your boundary can be that you don't want to discuss their lifestyle with them, but you can't really impose your own values on other people. If you want a relationship with your son and grandchildren, you'll need to be able to tolerate the difference in values. I don't see anything here that sounds relevant to borderline personality disorder, but whether or not your son's girlfriend has BPD, it sounds like you could benefit from therapy for yourself to work on boundaries and identify the triggers that are interfering with your relationship with them. Good luck!

[Harri]

Hi Angie,

Angie wrote:  

I am so conflicted.  I just can't do this anymore.

Can't do what anymore Angie?  

I feel that yes, it is your tablet, and you are free to do with it what you want.  However, when I am in charge of your son, we feel uncomfortable with him having access to it.  This is our boundary that we want respected.

What you issued was a rule not a boundary.  You have a right to ask for certain things but you can not make rules about what people do with their own belongings in their own house.  Your son was the one saying No to your attempt to control the tablet.  That is him protecting his boundary and he has a right to do that.  You are in charge of their son, not their house or what they do or who they vacation with or what kind of pictures they choose to take.

What can you do about the tablet?  When you get there, *you* put it out of reach and out of sight and when you leave, *you* put it back where it was when you got there.  Anything else is an attempt to control and puts you in the position of violating their rights, their rules, their habits in their own house.  Does that make sense?  The responsibility for setting and enforcing your boundaries is yours alone.  Anything else is control and/or ultimatums.  People confuse this all the time.

Boundaries are about what you will do, not what other people have to do in response to your wishes.  If as you say, you can't do this anymore, then don't.  Don't babysit.  However, there are consequences that go along with that choice and not all of them are within your control.

About your son being cheated on... .I'm sorry, I just don't see it.  He is aware she has been on trips with this guy, he knows she is on another one now... .that is not cheating.  It may be platonic or your son may be in an open relationship.  Regardless, it is not your place to label this or try to change things.  

What you can do is tell the family member (I remember you saying your son no longer shares info with you and you get it all second hand through an "Aunt") to stop passing on the info.  You can end the conversation and hang up.  You can interrupt her and say please stop sharing this info about my son (if he wanted you to know he would be telling you.  Or he may be sharing it knowing it will get back to you.  Does not matter.  You get to end the drama by stepping out of the drama triangle.)

About Solstice:  In another post you shared that she 'only celebrates' Solstice because her daughter's biological father gets you GD on Christmas.  Solstice was her attempt to make a family holiday out of something without having two Christmases.  Sounds like a great plan to me.  So what if she does not believe of practice things that happen on solstice?  It sounds like she does not really believe in Christmas as many people don't and rather sees it as a time to exchange gifts.  Not your place.  if she does not go to your house on Christmas, that is okay especially given how you feel about her.  She is trying to make a special day for her kids and is inviting you to participate so you can see the kids open their gifts.  This year they decided to stop with labeling the day Solstice and I don't understand what the issue is to be honest.  Why does that bother you?

So my son will have to know the truth about how I feel about being around her and her parents.

Angie, you son has, over time, gradually reduced what he shares directly with you, has let you know directly that you are stepping over the line in many ways and has been between the hostility you have with his finacee.  I am pretty sure he knows how you feel about his future wife.  I am sure she is aware as well.  

You can continue to try to be right with no relationship with them or you can keep trying to change.  Get a better understanding of boundaries.  Learn about differentiation of self and co-dependency.  Work on you rather than trying to control them.

[Angie59]

Wow!  First of all thank you for each of your responses.  I guess I am just at a different place here, but none of what I read in any of these posts rang true to me.  I don't feel or really clearly see what is being said here.

With nothing else for me to say, I'll stop here. 

Everyone, be well!

Angie59

[Star0009]

Hi Angie~
I don't know if you will be back to this thread. I'm just learning how to set boundaries myself but I wanted to say I feel for you. I don't know if your son's girlfriend is borderline. One with Histrionic personality is often inappropriately sexual. I can't say if she has any disorder and I don't believe what goes on in their sex life privately is anyones business. Leaving the pictures open for everyone to see I do find inappropriate. Leaving them open for children to see especially when they are of their parental figures I see as abuse. This is my own opinion. I think its a bit much to call social services on unless you feel there is other abuse going on. It is something you should maybe keep an eye on if you are concerned. I think setting rules is maybe not boundaries and counterproductive. I think if anything have a private heart to heart with your son over your concern that these pictures could be damaging for his children to see. I think this and continuing to be a strong loving role model in the children's life at this point is the most you can do. I'm about to be 40 if it matters. I feel for you. I would be equally upset and concerned.

[Panda39]

I'm too old and tired to be playing games.  I just want peace in my life right now.  So my son will have to know the truth about how I feel about being around her and her parents. 

Hi Angie,

This kind of confrontation has not worked for you in the past why do this again?  How will the outcome be different?  How does this type of confrontation create peace in your life? 

I get that you don't like what you see going on with your son and his family, but only they can decide what they are going to do.  The only person you control is yourself.  You can decide if you are confrontational about their choices, their lives, their behaviors or you can accept that you can not control them and decide not to be confrontational.

The choice to escalate the drama or further strain your relationship with your son and his family is yours.

Panda39

[Radcliff]

Angie59,

I understand your concerns -- for your grandkids, for your son, and for yourself.  There's a lot going on that would upset me as a parent and grandparent.  A certain amount of letting go of things you can't control is likely to be helpful for you, but I hear you that what's been said does not ring true for you.  I'd encourage you to stick with us on this thread, though, so we can see if we can get to a place where we're connecting better.  Let me start by asking you a question.  What are some things about the present situation where you want to hold a boundary, and where are you thinking it might be good to let go?

On the issue of your GS2 and GD4 potentially seeing inappropriate photos of their mom, that's concerning.  Even in this decade, or perhaps especially in this decade, outsiders would be concerned about that exposure to the children and that's a good clue that it's worth protecting them.  I would be inclined to see what I could do in a way that is as effective as possible at protecting the children.

* Can you move the photo app to the second home screen, so your grandchildren don't inadvertently touch it?
* Perhaps ask your son if you might put an easy passcode on it, maybe his birth year?
* Do you have the resources to buy a tablet as a gift for the grandchildren, and load their apps on it, with the understanding that your son's tablet becomes off limits?
* Can you think of other ideas that might help protect the kids that wouldn't require your constant intervention or a tug-of-war with your son?

RC

[Notwendy]

Angie- I can understand how some of these posts felt as if people were not agreeing with your point of view. I hope that if you return, you can see how they were said with care for your situation. I attend 12 step co-dependency groups, and sometimes the feedback is difficult to hear. I also had a sponsor and it sometimes felt like boot camp- not the support I wanted but something that I learned to appreciate over time.

We've discussed being supportive in the groups. On one hand, saying we agree with someone helps them to feel validated but it may not help them take steps to change their patterns so that they can have better relationships. These posts may not resonate with you, but they were intended to help you with boundaries so that your hostility towards the fiancee doesn't damage the relationship further.

You posted for help on boundaries. Boundaries are about ourselves, not another person and they reflect our own values.  If someone crosses our own boundaries- we have the choice of our own response- we can not control someone else. If someone behaves in ways that make us feel uncomfortable- honoring our own boundaries means we decide if we want to be around that person, or not. We can't change them to accommodate us.

This is tough to deal with at times, especially when they have to do with someone we love. Your disapproval of your son's fiancee is evident. Yet, your son chose her. To have him in your life- as long as he is with her, this includes her too. When you disapprove of his choice of partner, you also in a way disapprove of him- and create issues in the relationship. Yet, you also have to be true to yourself. If you truly dislike her so much that being around her makes you feel ill, you can also choose to not be around her. This may affect the relationship with your son and GS, but it is the way things are.

The issue with the tablet can be solved. You don't turn it on.  The children can play with something else when you are there and you can put it up and then when you leave put it back. You can also bring a tablet for them to play with if you wish to buy one.

How to handle the fiancees trip is between your son and his fiancee to manage. This is not about you. How they want to celebrate around Christmas time is also up to them.

I know that you fear they will distance themselves from you, but consider that people don't like being "made wrong" and being judged and disapproved of by others. You don't have to approve of their behaviors for yourself but the more they are made to feel wrong - the more damage this will do to the relationship you already have.

[Angie59]

Hello to everyone,

I want to take the time to reply to those who have addressed my issue with boundaries.  I am very confused by many of the answers that I have been given and wish to express to you my confusion. 

Regarding the tablet, I still feel that this is a boundary my husband and I have made after our grandson (2 years old) hit the wrong icon and up popped his mother in full nudity provocatively displaying herself for all to see.  Whatever my son and her understanding or acceptance is of this, we do not feel comfortable with a 2-year-old viewing such things.  I feel it is even worse should her 4 year old daughter see this; however, she is in school so we do not babysit her as we do the 2-year-old.  Why anyone would feel that this is okay for those children to view is beyond my comprehension.  We told our son that this made us feel uncomfortable and if we happen to see it lying around where he will get to it, we will simply put it away in the bedroom on my son's nightstand, close the door and he will know where to find it.  I do not see this as a "rule" in any way, but a boundary that we are making for ourselves and how it makes us feel for those children to be around that.

Cheating - "I just don't see it."  Well, I did see it.  On this same tablet are photos of her scantily dressed in someone else's bedroom.  The address is below those photos belongs to the same man she has now been on two trips with and hangs out at the bar with.  So... .with that in mind, we would have to have an extremely low IQ to believe that nothing is going on there. 

Not a BPD?  Someone believes no BP behaviors are being shown here.  Promiscuity, reckless behavior, excessive spending, pornographic posing, friends, co-workers, etc., go in and out like a revolving door, difficulty sustaining relationships... .need I go on?  Well, I guess I will add that there is bondage involved in her life and what she portrays in some of her pictures, and her father thinks this is perfectly fine.  In fact, he does leather work and displayed "his work" on social media by showing a mask covering the nose, mouth, to the chin which was then attached to the person's neck with a  chain and what appeared to be a dog collar.  The model for this was his daughter.  I guess the apple really does not fall far from the tree!  Her mother was raised by a mother who did not know how to show affection and gave her very little attention.  I wasn't there when she was growing up, but I see the same behavior in her mother toward her own daughter and the grandkids. 

Lying is also something that happens all the time.  Now, she has my son lying and covering her up for her.  If you aren't doing anything wrong, then why lie? 

My son knows this is not what he signed up for.  I see the sadness in his eyes and the frustration comes through often.  We know there is nothing we can do but be there for him and that is what we do.  However, just because there is abuse going on in his life, we do not have to allow it in our own.

I have only addressed the tip of the iceberg.  I don't feel I need to go on anymore as I feel I am defending mine and my family's feelings to everyone.  I don't feel they need to be justified. 

With that said, I do appreciate each and every one of you and the time you have taken in giving your opinion and trying to help during this difficult time in my life.

I wish all of you the best in your lives and in your endeavors in dealing with difficult situations. 

Angie59

[isilme]

Angie,

Hi there - maybe this will help.  Boundaries, as they are spoken of on BPD Family, are used to control YOUR actions to minimize damage to you.  Rules and/or Ultimatums are attempts to control the actions other people.  Boundaries CAN influence other people, but the primary goal is to control yourself and what you will and won't accept, tolerate, or allow yourself to take part in.  

Rule - son, in your house you will follow MY rules about how you manage your devices and property, and will not allow you child access to your device when I am here.  

Above, you are (as is common with parents) telling your adult child how he will behave.  In his own home, likely to spite you to some exetent, he will do as he wishes, it's his home and your desire to control his actions is causing friction.

Boundary - Son, I feel uncomfortable enabling a child to see his mother in nude photos, let alone ones that border on pornographic, by handing him a tablet as a distraction or toy, or having it around in plain sight as a reminder that he can use it as a toy.  He ahs other toys that are not of concern and the tablet is more for your use, not his.  It's your decision, but if this is common practice in your house, I won't be babysitting at your house.  You are welcome to drop the GS off at MY home and can rest assured I will take care of him, but I am not comfortable allowing him access to a device which has content unsuitable for his age on it, and I know in your house that is a normal occurrence - kids like tablets, and you don't have it set up so inappropriate content is hidden from his access.  I want to help you out by watching him is needed, but this bothers me enough that I don't want to do it here.

Now, a boundary may not work the way we hope, and it will often have at least temporary blowback.  But, if he's intent on you being needed as a babysitter, he will bring the kid over as needed and you won't have the tablet in your house to worry about.  You have protected yourself from feeling responsible for allowing a child access to nude photos.  

Your son can sadly choose to date someone who treats him poorly.  Who does not respect holidays.  Who travels and abandons her kids.  Who takes questionable photos.  You do NOT have to spend time with her.  That is a boundary.  If you want to celebrate Christmas, invite them for Christmas.  If she won't come, too bad.  The only issue there is she may choose to restrict access to the kids.  But you can't stop that.  You can only control you.  

Not a BPD?

There are all manner of other things that could be bouncing around inside her head and it may or may not be BPD.  Her actions could also be bipolar, which is more chemically based, while BPD is more learned emotional dysfunction.  She could be like my mom, who had both - yay.  So I advise to not focus on the label, focus on limiting the amount of crazy that affects you.  

The tools and lessons here are good to help with most mental illness and will help protect you from being drawn into the crazy.  

Sadly, this often means limiting contact, for a while as you find what can work as a boundary for you, or sometimes limited contact is forever.  It means picking and choosing battles.  It means seeing what communication methods work well, and what backfire.  Setting RULES is backfiring, you've tried it, let's try soemthing new.

Unless you want to draw CPS into this and claim she is unfit as a mother, and take a chance on getting full custody of these kiddos, your options are grandparent as you can but realize they are the parents and there is no rule you have to be great at that job (and the kids are young, they are still learning to BE parents).  And if you DO draw in CPS, there's no guarantee you'd be allowed access to the kids - it's all the whim of the state at that point.

If you aren't doing anything wrong, then why lie?

He is ashamed to talk to you about it and can't confide in you without feeling judged.  So he lies.  I am pretty sure you are open in your thoughts and feelings about his GF, and so he feels just as judged as she is by you.  

He cares about her - for whatever reason, he cares about her.  Anger and outrage at her in your eyes is also targeted at him,a nd he can feel that.

Here's an idea - if you think she has BPD, and he's hurting, maybe suggest he go to the relationship boards on this site.  He likely can use an outlet himself, to speak to peers who are not directly involved.  Please, if he does, don't lurk on those pages trying to find his posts, though, if he needs a clear, safe space.  As someone who jumps between the two, I can say I'd be horrified if my candid thoughts in this community were brought up in person.  Even if everything I write is true, just, or right from my standpoint, I need to feel I am not hurting anyone's feeling by writing on here.

I hope some of this makes sense.  I hope an example of a difference between a boundary and a rule makes sense.  It's very common for people on here to try out boundaries and feel they aren't working because the other person isn't respecting them - that's not how it works YOU have to respect your boundary, so it has to be something YOU can enact and enforce.  In someone else's house, the only real boundary is you leave when things happen you find objectionable or harmful.  You don't need to make a statement.  You just leave.  You can say why, or you can 'remember' you left the iron on and have to get home.  

[BabyButterfly]

Angie it actually sounds like you went through her photos pretty extensively rather than quickly closing the photo app when you realized your grandson opened it by mistake. It seems like you looked at all that you could and spent a lot of time thinking about them, and are still thinking about them. This is not healthy for you, and it is an example of a serious boundary problem--on YOUR part. I am worried you are going to become alienated from your son and his family. Your grandchildren are so lucky to have a grandma nearby who can babysit. This is a huge blessing in their lives and yours. Don't ruin it by demonizing your son's girlfriend. Her problems are her responsibility to deal with, and the relationship is between her and your son. Try to focus on yourself. Take some space if you need it, but based on what you've said here, confronting either of them sounds like it would make things a lot worse.

As a point of information, while bondage and sadomasochism may not be your cup of tea, it is not a symptom of any mental disorder.

This issue seems to be intruding on your relationships and your daily life. That's a pretty good indication that you could benefit from working on it with a professional. Good luck to you.

[Kwamina]

Hi Angie59

I am sorry to read how much you are still struggling with this situation.

Boundaries are indeed very important when dealing with disordered or otherwise challenging people. I think it's very good that you're trying to further explore this subject and find ways to make the situation more bearable for you

Boundaries are indeed about us. There are various models for boundaries, in the resources on this site we distinguish 3 main elements: 1. Value; 2. Boundary; 3. Action. We all have certain values and our boundaries are like the outer perimeters of those values. If something falls outside of what we deem acceptable based on our own values, we then can take actions to protect ourselves, regardless of what the other person does and also regardless of whether the other person likes it or not. The boundaries are about us and enforcing/defending boundaries is also 100% about us and our own behavior.

The situation with the tablet is an example you've posted about before and it is clearly upsetting to you. I understand your concerns for your grandchildren. Since you cannot control other people's behavior, you cannot control what your son and his fiancée do with the tablet, I would advise purely focusing on what you can do when you are alone at their house watching the children. It's their house so indeed their rules apply, but if you feel uncomfortable with certain elements you can indeed state that and also not remain in their house if your son and fiancee are there, if the environment is constantly conflicting with your own values. If you are in the house alone with the grandchildren, there are steps you can take by indeed placing the tablet somewhere where the littles ones don't have access to it. If your son and fiancee when they are home want the grandchildren to have access to the tablet, that's for them to decide. It's their house and their rules apply there. But if you don't feel comfortable with it, the action you can take is not remaining in the house to watch the grandchildren while your son and fiancée are still there, that's again focusing on your own behavior and how you respond to them.

Most people posting in this board in fact seem to have disordered family-members who have not formally been diagnosed with BPD. This can be for various reasons, they may be misdiagnosed or simply do not acknowledge their issues and as a result never ended up in a situation in which they could  have been diagnosed. I have followed your story and this latest thread and the issues you describe are part of a larger picture. One post alone of course cannot convey the entirety of a story and the experiences anyone of us has had with our difficult family-members. None of us posting on this board are able to diagnose people, not based on one post alone but also not on the entirety of posts anyone makes. Formal diagnoses cannot be made based on our posts, nor can based on just posts be determined that a disorder is not present. However, what we can do is focus on the behaviors we see in our family-members we are having trouble dealing with and try to find new and more effective coping strategies, primarily by focusing on our own behavior and responses to them.

Take care Angie59

The Board Parrot

[Notwendy]

Hi Angie-
I agree with your principles. I think it isn't appropriate for a child to have access to his parents' private provocative photos. I don't think it is right to travel with a man in what appears to be a romantic situation if I am married, and I don't think it is OK to lie. To me, these are good boundaries as they reflect my values too. As a result, I don't expose my children to private material, travel with men or deliberately lie.

I have a mother who lies. She has poor boundaries and this resulted in her sharing sexual TMI with me as a child. I don't know if she cheated or not, but she emotionally abused her children. I don't think this is right to do but I have no control over her. Her boundaries are not the same as mine.

My own boundaries leave me with some choices. I can choose to limit my time with her, or not see her at all. I could completely cut off contact with her. I didn't have that choice as a child but I do now.

Whatever choices I have will have consequences. I can not separate that. Every choice has consequences. I can tell you what I wanted, but I could not make that happen. I wanted my father to see the light, admit that I was right, and start to put boundaries on her behavior. But that would be wishing to control him. He has choices as well and he chose to not do that. I also could see the sadness and difficulty for him. If I could, I would have changed that for him, but I couldn't. He had to do that, and he made his own choices.

My mother is a difficult person for me to be around. My problem? I loved my father. They were a package deal. My choices were - if I cut contact with her, it would also mean cutting contact with him. If I wanted to see my father, I had to find some way to be in the presence of a person who didn't have the same boundaries I have.

Although it feels uncomfortable Angie, I think people here are trying to help you preserve your relationship with your son. As long as I continued to express my disapproval of my mother to my father, I became an irritant to him and added stress to his already difficult situation. As long as I showed disapproval of my mother, she saw me as an adversary. Basically taking the stand that I was right and they were wrong cost me my relationship with my father. I was naive about BPD dynamics at the time, and had no idea this would be the result of my "being in the right"- but it was.

I am not being critical of your values. I actually share them. But I can not make anyone else share them. They are the measurement of my own actions, not anyone elses.

I understand how you feel about the tablet, but it is their tablet and they can do whatever they want with it. I know it bothers you, and you have a choice- if it is that important to you, then you can choose to sever or ruin your relationship with your son and GS over the tablet. Or you can choose to keep your relationship and learn to manage what to do with it.

You can choose to express your disapproval of your son's fiancee's behavior and risk ruining the relationship you have with him, or choose to not speak about it with him.

You can choose to not attend Solstice but still invite your son and his family for Christmas, or not at all.

These are not easy choices. My mother is elderly now, and she is making some very poor choices. It is difficult to see her make these choices and also watch her suffer for them. Why is this hard for me? Because I am a human and have empathy as well as values and I see my mother making choices I would not make, and it is hard to watch another human in distress over them. But I am powerless over her choices. She wants complete control. When my father was ill, I contacted social services over their situation and what they told me was " your father is legally competent to make his own bad decisions". So is your son. I have the choice to cut off contact with my mother, but it is my own values/boundaries that have led me to choose to have limited contact. You see, she is elderly and frail and that doesn't feel right to me to do that. It's my choice that leads me to struggle with this situation.

Boundaries involve making these difficult choices. I know you love your son, and GS I hope you can find some way to maintain peace with them, even if their behaviors don't reflect your values.

[Harri]

Okay, let's take a closer look at what I said about boundaries vs. rules regarding the tablet.  I said you issued rules rather than boundaries.  I said that because:

My husband and I do not feel comfortable with the tablet hanging around in plain view of our GS2, because when he sees it, he will surely want to play with it.  We do not believe this is an appropriate thing for him to have to see.  We have tried to make a boundary with our son that if we see the tablet out where GS2 will see it, then we will take it into our son's bedroom, place it on his nightstand and close the door so it will not be in plain sight.

He said okay to this and the first week it worked out great.  The tablet was no where to be seen!  We were happy.  Then the second week came along.  We walked into the house on Thursday morning and low and behold, there is GS2 playing on the tablet right in front of us.  Once my son saw him with the tablet, he just said, here, Daniel Tiger is on TV for you so you don't need this, and put it on the charger right on the end table in front of us! Still i plain view for GS2 to want it later.  

There is a discrepancy in what you wrote here:  the first that I bolded is a good boundary.  It follows your value, you set your boundary and you chose a course of action for you to defend that boundary.  The action you talk about involves you taking responsibility for your boundary and its enforcement.  

Where it became a rule is what I highlighted in blue.  Your boundaries went out the window.  You maintained your value (good) but you expected your son to not just accept your boundary but for him to enforce it as well by expecting him to put the tablet away.

If instead you had simply noticed the tablet out, picked it up and put it out of sight and out of reach, you would have been honoring and enforcing your boundary, not expecting someone (your son) to follow your rule.

Can you see the difference?  

So on both Thursday and Friday, we removed the tablet from the end table on Thursdays and from her bed on Friday and placed them back where I told him they would be - on his night stand in his bedroom with the door closed. 

I heard through a relative that he was angry and said, "Well, it's our tablet."  "This isn't the 50's anymore."

Your son does not care for your boundary.  He did not violate it.  He simply does not like it.  Don't listen to his complaint through second parties.  He does not have to like it for you to maintain your boundary.

[CollectedChaos]

Hi Angie 

Boundaries are confusing, especially when we aren't used to having to set them with difficult people.  I agree with Harri above - when you told your son that you would be keeping the tablet out of GS's sight when you babysat, that was great.  That put the boundary on YOU to move the tablet to a place that would make you more comfortable.  However, when you were upset that your son didn't move it for you, that is when it drifted away from the original boundary and into a rule and another thing to be resentful for.  Just because he was able to get it out of your sight before you arrived on some of the days, it doesn't mean that should have become the status quo in your mind.  The boundary is still yours, not his - if the tablet is present, it's on you to move it as you had discussed in your original boundary.

I believe I have mentioned this before but I think it bears repeating:  seductive photos of someone doesn't necessarily mean that they are cheating or doing anything that is unwelcome in the relationship.  Women get photos like this taken for their husbands, wives or SOs - there's a whole genre of professional photos out there called boudoir photography.  You have no idea whether she had these photos taken for your son, for someone else, or both.  There are plenty of people out there who are simply more sexual, are in open relationships, polyamorous, into bondage, the list goes on and on.  This doesn't make them bad people, or liars, or cheaters.  It's simply a different lifestyle than you have chosen for yourself.  I imagine that if your son is not surprised by the photos or their source, he is likely a willing participant in whatever their sex life happens to contain.  Regardless of the photos you've seen or the vacations she has been on, you do not actually have confirmation of infidelity, despite your strong feelings on the matter.  They are merely anecdotes.  If your son continues to be with her, that should be enough for you to agree to move away from this topic altogether.  Continuing to dwell on this is only hurting yourself, and your relationship with your son and grandson. 

I'd also like to agree with isilme and say that your son is likely caught up in the lying that you reference because he feels judged by you and feels as though he needs to lie or bend the truth to keep the peace as best he can.  If he isn't comfortable telling you the truth of a situation, it makes sense that he would amend it for your ears. 

I understand how hurtful all of this can feel, and hearing some tough love is painful, but I promise you that we are all just trying to help you find a middle ground with your family so you are able to maintain a relationship with your son and grandson despite the issues that are present.  I know that when I first learned about BPD in relation to my mother, it was difficult for me to wrap my head around boundaries and how they would actually better my situation.  On top of them feeling completely out of reach for me, I also felt that they wouldn't work even if I could work myself up to implementing them.  But time and time again, with practice and repetition, they did.  The folks on this board are great at validating that you are having a rough time while also providing some constructive feedback to help you better your situation.  Simply agreeing with you on how hurtful these things are doesn't help you learn the tools you need to better your relationship.