Family finances; healthy management or unhealthy control | Part 1

[formflier]

Not sure how to even put this in context... .

FF, you plugged your phone in the bed knowing there is not another cord and I use my phone as my alarm. I have a job to be at early in the morning. I asked you to get another cord and you did... .then you asked me for the cord I was using... .You didn't want to use the one you brought. You said it's because it wasn't long enough. I didn't give it to you immediately... .Here's why. Although a wife should find protection with her husband the opposite has been true with you. I have to protect myself from you. Especially in the little things. I lock the bedroom door because I am changing and it opens to the living room full of people. Yet you walk up to the door find it locked and pull up on the handle and throw it open. We have talked about this many times... .You continue to do it. The look on your face told me you were disappointed I wasn't embarrassed. Truth is I heard your footsteps and took action to protect myself. I hid in the hall to our bathroom. Back to the cord...   after living with you for almost 25 years I knew immediately when you asked for the 'longer' cord I was using instead of using the one you went and got out of a drawer, that you had  just grabbed a random cord that may or may not work. I knew immediately I needed to check to see if the one you brought in for me even worked.  Yes, I cussed a few days ago. I am in disbelief that be you are acting offended... .You have called me every possible filthy name that exists. Your ability to forget your sins and be offended at mine is really something. I apologize for cussing several days ago when I had a horrible day and you decided then was a good time to call me on it rather than show any compassion whatsoever. It was wrong no matter how awful my day was.  I hope the recording you made of our talk in our bedroom that day served your purpose well. While we are talking about our bedroom door handle... .Fyi... .I will not risk having sex again until a door handle that can't be opened when it locks is installed.Too many close calls.

Is there something here to be responded to?

FF

[Panda39]

I think that was a long winded way to ask you to get your own phone cord and fix the door handle. 

Maybe validate that yes it must be embarrassing when she's trying to change and the door gets opened because the lock is broken on the door.

Is this something you can fix for her?

Panda39

[Chitchat]

As a T might say, 'How did that make you feel?'

[Enabler]

I would validate the valid and state plan of action for the noise.

My sense (which is clearly rubbish) is that there is a bunch of noise in that, maybe current practical irritations such as the cords (ebay, super long ones for the price of buttons) and the lock. However, I believe the true purpose of the message was something she's been ruminating on... .she feels guilty for her bad language, feels judged (by herself but you as well) and is trying to mentally square it up in her head by deflecting to you. I'd also imagine that there is some paranoia (seeded by the recording of the conversation) (you know she loves a bit of paranoia) which is feeding through to the other things and general safety fears... .

"He records our conversations... .why is he recording our conversations... .what is he doing... .is he going to kill me... .I must stay safe... .has he put a phone tapping virus in the special charger he had no reason to give me... .am I being watched now... .can I trust FF, no... .he's dangerous... .he's trying to destroy me... ."

You know how this death spiral works better than me.

Enabler

[Notwendy]

Underneath what may appear as noise are two requests- get a longer phone cord for yourself and fix the door handle. Also, be considerate of her if she is changing. I actually think this involves boundaries on her part- she wants her own phone cord as she needs the phone as an alarm. She wants her privacy around her kids- for herself and for them as they are getting older. A two year old can walk in on mommy getting dressed - but not a teen age boy.

Rather than react to the noise- a good response to me would be to go get a cord and fix the door.

[toomanydogs]

I agree with Notwendy here. For what it's worth, and I need to go back and read more of your posts, to me your wife is coming across as being really uncomfortable asking you to get another cord and fix the door handle.

It's been my experience, primarily when I was teaching, that when some students were uncomfortable asking me for something--not to do group work, extra time for an assignment, and the like--they would bluster that way and try to dump the issue back on me, as if it were my fault.

The thing with students as opposed to students, it was much easier for me not to have any kind of emotional reaction to their blustering. "Sure, sure," I'd tell them. "No problem." And they'd continue to bluster until they knew I meant it.

With a spouse or a kid? Harder not to have an emotional response, but I think Notwendy is right, a lot of noise here; however, the message buried beneath the noise seems relatively small.
 
TMD

[formflier]

Interesting take on all of this.

Here is what actually happened.  We had several cords in the room.  My wife keeps taking and leaving them who knows where.  So there was one cord and I had my phone plugged in.  I was sitting on side of bed working on my BP cuff getting ready to take a ready... .with my phone plugged int (that had been beeping red).

I always sit in same position so I get consistent readings.  And... from our plug in, you had to have one of the long cords.

So... she asks me to get her a cord... I skip any thought of "problem solving" about perhaps we should just (read she should) leave cords where they are plugged in and only take cords from the drawer... .the extras.  Nah... .no good to bring that up.

So... I bring her new cord and instead of plugging that cord in and leaving my alone... she takes my phone... .unplugs it... does not plug it into the new cord.  She plugs her phone into the long cord and starts using her phone (minor detail... but she is 1 foot from the outlet... .I'm across the bed)

So... .I ask to have the long cord back because I was using it.  She says something random... .

FF "I would appreciate having the cord back I was using... .I still need the long one."

FFw  Silence

FF  "I get it... .so now we are going to do the "I'm not going to communicate with you thing now that you have what you want."  Great relationship skills dear.  (yeah... I was embracing my inner a$$hole).

FFw:  Then... in a very "moralizing" tone she starts talking about "you know... when I have problem children at school I make sure and praise them extra... it really works."

FF:  I'm sure it does.  I don't understand how you decide to use effective tools like that at work, yet at home you use vulgarity with me.  It would be nice to be praised in an effort to correct me."

She then started a stream of dysregulated nonsense.  I walked to the bathroom, drew a hot bath and did my evening soak. 

Next morning she seemed "pensive"... perhaps especially so.  Then this email showed up.

FF

[Notwendy]

Thankfully cords are not expensive. This is what I would do. Buy a new long cord and with a piece of duck tape- write her name on it. Plug it in by her bedside. "honey, I bought you a new cord ". Then also buy one for you- put your name in it, leave it by your side of the bed.

His and her cords.

Fix the door handle.

Don't react to drama 

[formflier]

So... the cussing thing.

A day or two prior she expressed interest in going grocery shopping... she and kids made some big plan.  It appeared as though she was being "overt" about making plans without me.   I didn't bite.

She then approached me for money for groceries... .I think she asked for $100... I put that and a few bucks more in the account she has access to.

Off she and kiddos went to shop.

I had been having a particularly bad "back day"... .so I decided to use some relative calm for a hot jetted tub bath and some stretching.  

Apparently while I was in the bath she emailed me asking me to put $50 more in the account so she could fill up the van.  (and... I would have gladly put the money in... .she said please... .very nice email)

Anyway... .I'm getting out of the bath and I hear her coming in the house with a head of steam about something.  She storms into our room "accusing" me of not putting the money in the account as she "told me to" in the email.

I stayed relaxed... .(still trying to figure things out) and said something along the lines of "Oh babe... did I respond to an email and then forget to do something for you?"

Then... .in a voice that was heard throughout the house... .a loud "effe you" was said.  (I believe I had mentioned this earlier... without details... .I think Red had some comments about that)

Anyway... .she kinda stomped around the bedroom and I figured the bath was still warm... so I got back in for a while longer.

Then... perhaps 45 minutes later.  I'm relaxing in bed (back is doing better) and the door to my bedroom comes flying open.

FF you can't make this up movie moment coming... .everyone get your popcorn... it's a party.  

My wife "hops" into the room.  Hop:  Defined as opening door and jumping several feet into the room.  She lands kinda looking at me and I think said 7-8 words in machine gun fashion.  Honestly... .I didn't get all of them... but I think the point was "sorry" and "dinner ready".  

Seriously... .I couldn't understand them... but from breaks in noise... .I kinda got the total number of words.

Nope... movie isn't over.  She "hops" out of the room... and slams the door shut.

Umm... .you can't make this stuff up.  

Nope... not over.

10 min later a perfectly composed FFw brings me a plate of food (delicious by the way).  I said "Oh babe... .thanks so much for the food."

She doesn't respond... .walks from room and shuts door.

And... the curtain shuts on FF movie night.

FF

[Notwendy]

I don't think one can always make sense out of these things.

I think there is a disconnect when in victim mode. Something unintentional on your part can be interpreted as some kind of affront.

You can't change that. You were in the tub. She took it as ignoring her request.

If cussing were a mortal sin, Hell would be overcrowded. Sometimes I think it helps to just let some of this stuff go.

[formflier]

I suspect what she is "really" upset about is she has a pretty good idea of the "cost" of "opening my wallet" again.

It will take a relaxed... in person apology  Not an email.  And... .if the "hopping" thing was in fact an apology... .I can't imagine "letting that count" being in any way good for the relationship.

My "value" or "stance".  If you want to cuss me to my face... .you can apologize in same manner.  While I'm generally not a fan of email or text apologies... .if you "do something wrong via email" and then apologize via email... .I will accept that to be consistent with my "value".

Personally... if I make a booboo via email. I try to talk directly to a person to express remorse or apology.
 
Anyway... .my question for you guys... . At some point she will "want" something from me and I want to be appropriately flexible to help move the relationship forward and recognize the reality that she likely won't do anything close to a real apology.

So... how do I handle that?

Right now my plan is that if she asks for money via email or text that my response will be along the lines of "I'll certainly consider it.  Let me know when it's a good time for you to talk in person about this."


Something like that.

FF

[Notwendy]

When it comes to apologies, I think you may be asking too much of her. I think an apology is very hard for a pwBPD- I think it triggers a big shame reaction for them. Instead of " I made a mistake" they feel " I am a mistake, I'm worthless, incompetent, etc.

Sometimes an apology comes in the form of " see I am good now" Doing something nice as a way to offset the offense. Once they do that, bringing up the offense can trigger a dysregulation.

I agree that doesn't repair a relationship for you in your way, but it may be the best they can do. Your wife is the wife you have, and trying to make her do this differently may cause further drama. If the hopping into the bedroom is her apology, that is the apology. She also apologized by e mail. Pushing this further is rubbing her nose in it. (IMHO)

There seems to be some kitchen sinking here. Solve the part you can solve- get the cords, fix the door.

[formflier]

I can't imagine "letting it go" and sending her money next time she asks politely.  She does like to use the standard "wait it out" BPD tactic... .combined with the etch a sketch... ."it never happened."

However... she did mention it in the email... .she is aware.

I guess I could see me saying in a private conversation... . "Babe... I don't understand what happened with the cussing the other day.  I'd like to talk about it.  If you don't want to discuss it, I'm willing to let it go for the good of our relationship."

Oh... .I don't think it matters or should be corrected... .but she is confusing her stories.  She didn't "cuss" me on her bad day.  On her bad day she appeared to be cussing S15 saying "not going to put up with any BS" (she said the BS nice and loud.

I walked in the kitchen... saw S15 kinda wide eyed... .and figured the best way to help calm things was

"Hey babe... .I'd like to chat about parenting in private."

she sighed... said she was busy but would come in after a few minutes.  Which she did.  She was actually apologetic in person that time, had bad day at school and (amazingly) said she would need space to calm that evening.  I gave her the space... she kinda kept to herself.

FF

[formflier]

Clarity:  We have plenty of cords... .like 10 extra in the drawer.  All of them in the drawer have been tested by me ahead of time.   They are good.  I regularly get extra cords as well... .and then cords that show up are tested before going in drawer.

There is a bag labeled "bad cords" where the (you guessed it) bad cords go... to get swapped for warranty.

Door fixing is in work.  Waiting on warranty replacement to get here.


And... I get it... .I likely won't get something close to a "perfect" apology (although those do sometimes happen... I'm not asking for impossible).   I also want to be considerate of my values around "respect and appreciation of my wallet"

Any advice on how to balance that?

FF

[Fian]

My personal code is I never expect apologies.  If they come, great.  My personal way of dealing with such issues, is to state my displeasure at their behavior and then let it go.  So in your situation, I would just tell her that I thought it was wrong to use the F word (add any more detail that you feel is appropriate).

To be honest, pwBPD usually is the one demanding apologies for behavior that doesn't warrant an apology.  It can easily become a contest of wills, which isn't helpful in a marriage.

[formflier]

There are many "issues" or things that I let stuff go.  Money is kinda it's own category with me, because of past "financial infidelity"... that was apologized for... .the unapologized for (I didn't even know that was a thing... to unapologize)

Anyway... .my way of looking at is is if YOU break the relationship... it's broken... .there is a way to repair it.  I'm not going to hound you... nag you... whatever to repair it, but I'm also not going to pretend it isn't broken.

So... I don't "demand" an apology... I'll live my life with wallet closed and be just fine... I would pester her about it.

Said another way... I'll respect whatever choice she makes.


FF

[Fian]

I guess I am not understanding.  How is this about money?  Because she got upset at you about not giving her money for the gas?  Isn't that issue already a non-issue (van has gas)?  If I am hearing you correctly, all future money is on hold until she apologizes?  I thought last time we discussed this you said you would not give her money when she asked in a non-polite way.  I took that to mean if she asked in a bad way you wouldn't give her money, but if she later came in a reasonable way, you would.  Now it is sounding like even then you wouldn't give it unless it would also be accompanied by an apology.  IMO, that is taking things too far.

[flourdust]

My analysis is that your marriage is broken, possibly irrevocably, and getting worse. Would you like help with an exit strategy?

[PeteWitsend]

Clarity:  We have plenty of cords... .like 10 extra in the drawer.  All of them in the drawer have been tested by me ahead of time.   They are good.  I regularly get extra cords as well... .and then cords that show up are tested before going in drawer.

There is a bag labeled "bad cords" where the (you guessed it) bad cords go... to get swapped for warranty.

Door fixing is in work.  Waiting on warranty replacement to get here.


And... I get it... .I likely won't get something close to a "perfect" apology (although those do sometimes happen... I'm not asking for impossible).   I also want to be considerate of my values around "respect and appreciation of my wallet"

Any advice on how to balance that?

FF

sounds like she may be a little frustrated over the lack of control of the situation?

You may want to remind her the fix for the bedroom door lock is in the works, and also that you have plenty of extra cords, but maybe suggest - like someone else mentioned above - that she label one she likes for her exclusive use next to the bed.

Without spending an extra $$$ you've reassured her that her demands will be met and (hopefully) defused a bad situation.

[formflier]

  Now it is sounding like even then you wouldn't give it unless it would also be accompanied by an apology.  IMO, that is taking things too far.

And... perhaps it is.  She has never been "this mean" or "demanding" for money.  She has been nasty before... .but never cussed at me like this.

I'd have to search my memory banks on whether or not she apologized for those previous incidents.  I tend to think there was some gesture and sometimes an apology.   Some gesture beyond something in an email.

You guys know me... .I can get caught up in details.  This was really after the fact.  I gave her more money that she asked for the first time, and then wasn't aware of the second request. 

So... perhaps this is new territory or a new "precedent"

I'm certainly not contemplating "pestering" her for an apology... .but what do I do when she nicely asks for money for something I would normally say yes to... .do I really act like nothing ever happened?

Or perhaps I say yes... .and ask her to have a conversation later.

Very likely I'm stuck in overthinking mode.

FF

[formflier]

My analysis is that your marriage is broken, possibly irrevocably, and getting worse. Would you like help with an exit strategy?

No on the exit strategy... I've got plans ready should that ever come to happen.

Marriage is certainly broken.  I suspect that I am somewhere near the "upper limit" of improvement for what one person can do, without the other doing some active work on their part.

Not suggesting I've arrived and I'll quit... .just that I don't see tons more energy being put in resulting in much more improvement.

FF

[Fian]

I'm certainly not contemplating "pestering" her for an apology... .but what do I do when she nicely asks for money for something I would normally say yes to... .do I really act like nothing ever happened?

Or perhaps I say yes... .and ask her to have a conversation later.

Yes, I think it is better to not tie money to an apology.  Keep the 2 issues separate.

[formflier]

Yes, I think it is better to not tie money to an apology.  Keep the 2 issues separate.

Not arguing... .but asking to expand on the values here.

The boundary is about my value around money.

If you want "access", you will be polite.  For clarity, I'm this way in the business world as well.  I have a tense relationship with an adjoining landowner (investment property) and I do owe him money.  

He got yippy and cussed some, although not "at" me and I stopped the conversation... .let him know I don't discuss business that way but would be ready to proceed without cussing.  After a couple days... .he was nicer... .we proceeded and appear to have come to a deal.  (hopefully finalized soon)
.
And yes... I'm a Sailor and I've heard a few things here and there.  I've chosen a pathway away from that and I'm willing to pay the cost in broken relationships, missed business deals... tense relationships... whatever... .

Disrespect... .wallet closed

Respect... I'll consider opening it.

Life is simple for FF

FF

[Fian]

The problem is it is becoming more about control.  She needs money.  Now in order to get it, she has to humble herself before you.  If you stick to your guns, you will probably get the apology.  It won't be sincere, though, and she will resent you for it.  I get your insistence that she ask nicely, but now tying it to past behavior is a serious escalation in your relationship, and it isn't going to take it where you want.  She will respect you less if you tie apology to money.

From a Christian perspective, Jesus didn't wait for the Roman soldiers to apologize before he forgave them.

[formflier]

The problem is it is becoming more about control.  She needs money.  Now in order to get it, she has to humble herself before you.  If you stick to your guns, you will probably get the apology.  It won't be sincere, though, and she will resent you for it.  I get your insistence that she ask nicely, but now tying it to past behavior is a serious escalation in your relationship, and it isn't going to take it where you want.  She will respect you less if you tie apology to money.

From a Christian perspective, Jesus didn't wait for the Roman soldiers to apologize before he forgave them.

From a Christian perspective... .there is a difference in forgiveness and reconciliation.  I'm not out to persecute my wife or to punish.  I'm also not her to "save" her from her actions/decisions.

She "wants" my money and she "wants" the past back, without doing the work required to heal her decisions (financial infidelity).

She has a full time job and her own money.  Which I don't ask for.  She apparently used her own money and regularly does so... to buy things.  Such as when I was in the bath... apparently she used some of her own that day.

She has choices... .I'll respect whichever ones she makes, even if I don't find them "respectable".

I do need to think about what I'm going to do if she just want to "wash away" the past on this particular instance. 

I don't think she respects me... so... .what do I have to lose?

She resents me... so... .again... .what do I have to lose?

She may "act" sincere... or not... but I'll never know if she "really' means it.

Funny thing... .once you get to a point where you have nothing to loose, it seems to be easier to do the "right" thing.

I am still debating what the "right" thing is in this particular case... .

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Well IMO, it will be a cold day in Hell when an angry and bitter pwBPD offers a genuine apology. It's a conundrum. Do we let them off the hook easier than we would an emotionally healthy person? Or do we try and hold them accountable for past misdeeds that they've long since swept under the carpet? The heavy burden of shame that pwBPD carry seems to preclude much self introspection and the ability to step inside someone else's experience and see things differently. How much behavioral change and remorse is enough to account for past indiscretions?

[formflier]

There is a "personal element" to what I'm going to say... also "analysis" of a pwBPD.

My wife does actually apologize sometimes and seems to mean it.  Her feelings might change later... .

Her Mom... .I doubt she has EVER apologized.

Her sister would not apologize, but would do acts of service of some sort... .

So... chew out her husband (standard BPD) but a few days later make a special meal.  But he told me he NEVER heard "I'm sorry" or "forgive me" or "I apologize" or anything like that.  I believe him... .100%.

My wife is BPD light... .compared to them.

I mention this because I would feel different... if there was no evidence she could or had done this  She just doesn't do it as often as she should (IMO)

Not sure if that changes anything.

FF

[Notwendy]

I agree with Fian. This money issue is a division in your marriage and neither one of you seems willing to budge on that. It seems like there’s a lot of resentment between the two of you. Which direction do you want the marriage to go?

[formflier]

I agree with Fian. This money issue is a division in your marriage and neither one of you seems willing to budge on that. It seems like there’s a lot of resentment between the two of you. Which direction do you want the marriage to go?

In the direction where money "deals" get kept.  In fact, it would be great if we could talk, agree on what is going to happen... and have that happen.

Umm... you guys asked what I want.  A spouse that keeps their word.

FF

[formflier]

  neither one of you seems willing to budge on that. 

I've actually budged a lot.  and I have proposed many... many compromises and tried many that were abrogated by her.

She has remained steadfast... .the only thing she will be "happy" with is unlimited access just like she had before... .and she "promises" that she won't do it again.

Clarity... .that "deal" has been tried three times... perhaps more... .with her breaking it. 

So... .?

I'm willing to try many different things... .but I'm not willing to try again a failed plan... .and expect it to turn out differently.

FF