Manipulation and Control

[Invested]

Totally unreasonable, yet understandable behavior. I would like to ask for feedback from anyone. It has been a tough few days, as my son enters deeper treatment for trauma. Some of which my wife is actually responsible for. My wife is HF BPD. Married 19 years. Don't know if she is in denial or just manipulative. Over the past years, talking at home, most always ends up with her emotionally dysregulating and abusing me through shouting, sarcasm, interrupting, and generally overpowering with words / threats. Those conversations go nowhere, which is her safe place! End up with her shouting and abusing, even though I have gotten better with setting limits and boundaries. Always difficult if kids are home as she gets loud. So the last few times I have asked to meet out for coffee. Really productive conversations, no conflict, quite fruitful. So we have had a few tough situations lately where we are trying to decide best course of action for our oldest son who is very much the same as her, ADHD, BPD, Anxiety. These conversations will be tough for her as she has been emotionally inconsistent and done many tough things over the years. This is all coming to a head and so her strategy is to make herself unavailable, and just not talk... there are less places she can hide. So now she refuses to talk outside the house. Says she will only talk in the house in the same spot where she causes all the pain. Go figure. Tells me I am being abusive for not respecting this limit of hers, her limit that she will only talk in the house in this same spot we have always talked (unsuccessfully). Am I going crazy here. She is saying I am abusive for not accepting her limit of ONLY talking in the house. Seems to me, she can only consider having these important conversations, if she can stop them through being abusive. Any one got any thoughts here? Thanks. Invested.

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[RolandOfEld]

Hi Invested,

My wife is also often next to impossible to communicate with for the same issues. The coffee shop idea was a great strategy and I'm sorry to hear its no longer working.

Have you two seen a marriage counselor? When my wife and I hit a total communication impasse, we sometimes agree to stop talking about it and take it to the counselor. The counselor is able to moderate, e.g. stop her from interrupting and calling her on inappropriate communication methods,  and I am able to say things I could otherwise never get said at home.

You could also lay out your ideas in a letter or email and send for her feedback, which would stop her from interrupting.

How old is your son? If she is so unwilling to get involved in a conversation about your son, how much do you think you could accomplish unilaterally? My son was recently diagnosed ADHD and I am taking some actions by myself.

Sending you strength,
RolandOfEld

[Invested]

Thanks Roland, appreciate you. MC was a disaster. Many years of pain there. As so many here have reported on this site, therapists are a lot of the time so scared of/unable to cope with BPD, that they go to the non BPD spouse for problems. The BPD partner is cunning (allbeit totally subconscious) and manipulates. I don't want to share the abuse I suffered in those sessions, only to have the MC sabotage so they could exit blaming me when they finally realize what they are dealing with and that they have added to the problem. Great pain there. Now BPD wife refuses to try again as she says it was a total waste of time. Ironic as now it would actually be effective. Now of course BPD wife realizes she does indeed have these issues and now refuses to go. Also, refuses the coffee shop. I have the skills, we have the knowledge, she does not want to go there. Denial and defense mechanisms. I need to respect her limits of course, and will. Got to the point though that she will even say that asking her to get treatment is violating her limit because she has asked me not to! To maintain her defense mechanisms she has to disconnect. This is challenging as we do have our two sons to make sure they get treatment where needed. Our eldest, 14 has suffered from the emotional dysregulation of BPD wife and he to has ADHD. At 10 he was heading in the direction of BPD as well. Fortunately, I found DBT 4 years ago and have been utilizing this at home effectively. They to have been using it at home and in treatment. Unfortunately wife refuses any treatment. Such a shame, our two or three coffee shop dates worked out so well - she actually was vulnerable and shared. Totally understand why that is scary and now she does not want it! Roland, again, appreciate you chiming in  - I did need to share and hear back. It has been really tough going as I am carrying a lot of weight. Doing my best to take care of me and disconnect myself from her craziness! Thanks. Invested.

[Invested]

I am wondering you all think of my question, call it a poll if you will... .

When BPD wife says that me asking her to consider / get treatment for emotional dysregulation / ADHD / BPD, is violating her limits because she has asked me not to... .is this violating her limit because she asked me not to ask her?

She even has started to call me abusive for asking her. I believe this is because I have described her emotional dysregulation, sarcasm, bullying, as abusive and told her this must stop.


Thanks for any thoughts. Invested.

[Woodchuck]

Invested-
Wow, you are dealing with a lot of the same kind of things I am dealing with.  To answer your question, I would say that it is violating her limit.  As many members say, you can change your SO, only yourself.  You have already told her that you think that she needs treatment so the ball is really in her court.  I would venture to say that the more you try to push her to get treatment, the more she will resist.  At this point, I would turn your focus onto what you can do.  I have found that going to a T every few weeks has really helped me process things and examine how I can communicate/engage differently.  Your W may even be more receptive to treatment if she sees you leading the way.  MC was a disaster for us as well.  I will not go again until there has been significant improvement through individual counseling.  I am not going to push my W go to.  I have mentioned to her that it has really helped me and that it may be a good idea for her to go but am leaving it completely up to her.  In the end, I don't need her to go in order for me to be happy with me.  With all that said, I do understand how difficult it is to see someone you love destroying relationships for no good reason and refusing to or unable to see what they are doing and refusing to seek counsel/help.   It is really heart breaking and you feel completely helpless.   From my experience, you can spend 25 hours a day explaining to them how they are being hurtful or abusive etc and they will not get it or refuse to acknowledge it or justify it somehow, so trying to go that route more than once really doesn't do anyone any good.  If the person you were confronting was healthy, it would be a different story. Hang in there and keep your head up.  Take a look and see if you can find a good individual T that you could start having sessions with. 

WC

[Invested]

Thanks WC, your right of course. If she says it's her limit, it is. It's when she calls it abusive, me asking to meet out, or asking her for treatment, that I get the WOW feeling, are you kidding. I could not agree more with getting treatment for myself, been doing this for such a long time, just to survive the psychological pounding. Most recently I have been in DBT for a couple of years! Appreciate your words WC. They resonate - it is heart braking. Still, my boys are doing soo much better. Thanks. Invested.

[waverider]

Any sort of treatment is only affective if it is something the "patient" really wants and is committed too. Treatment for BPD takes a lot of commitment, something a pwBPD often lacks when they are presented with their issues head on as their instincts are to divert or avoid. Therefore trying to pressure, or coerce, some one into it not only is disrespecting their requests but is also most likely ineffective.

Going back to one of your early comments, discussing conflict elsewhere after the event. You will often get "insights" and a more open discussion once the emotion is not running high. However pwBPD react to the moment, so whatever is said in those "clear" moments does not filter too deep into their consciousness, part of not having a strong identity to anchor it to. So when the emotion of the moment comes again it is blown away like sand in a storm. You end up cycling again. The pwBPD may not be able to stop this happening, but can see their promises being broken and this simply reinforces their sense of failure.

Ultimately they cope with this by trying to avoid those situations whereby they feel pressured to make promises. Likewise they feel pressured, or bullied, by therapist when they are put on the spot. It is one reason they pull out of appointments as it just makes them feel like a failure.

Counselling by anyone who is not a BPD expert usually back fires as pwBPD approach the sessions with agendas, which normally are to seek validation for their own victimhood, and end up leading therapists off on irrelevant tangents. You as the non are often drawn into compromises which feel like agreeing to being abused on weekends if they promise to not do it during the week. The abuser then continuing to ignore even that compromise anyway. No matter how hard you try you will end up being compromised, especially by a MC. It is imperative you have someone fully experienced in BPD. Otherwise you will be left with the feeling that they "just dont get it"

[Invested]

Thanks Waverider, this all makes sense. The coffee shops actually were not after conflict. Just time to talk away from kids. I believe you are spot on when you say: "Ultimately they cope with this by trying to avoid those situations whereby they feel pressured to make promises. " These sessions were so much easier, in public, cant dysregulate, actually felt normal to me. Clearly the real conversations were a little to scary, which is why she now refuses to go. Even though I did not pressure for promises, it is obvious this was all uncomfortable for her. She just does not want to talk, it is all a little too close to home for her - whatever guilt and shame sits beneath is too close for comfort. Thanks again. Invested.

[Invested]

Also, you are spot on with the MC piece. The unfortunate part for us is that we had about 6 years of highly dysfunctional MC from two very bad therapists. We will never know, however, it appeared to me each therapist terminated in some way once they realized what they were dealing with. Tough times now, tougher than they could have been had we had an expert BPD MC from the start. All the best, Invested.