What is love?

[Woodchuck]

Yesterday, my W was telling me that I don't do anything that shows her that I love her.  I asked her what I could do to show her that I love her and her response was that she could not tell that, I need to figure it out.  She went on to tell me again that I need to change my heart towards her.  I told her that I have tried to figure things out for years and have obviously not been successful.  I went on to mention a few instances where I tried to show her that I love her over just the past few weeks.  She responded that none of those things were showing love because she didn't ask for them.  She stated that love was accepting what someone else wants and respecting it.  I replied that if that I understood that was her definition of love, and that I felt like she did not accept or respect anything I wanted.  She responded that she didn't claim to love me.  That was a bit of a surprise and felt like a punch in the gut.  The only reply that I could come up with is 'Ok, fair enough'.  It seems to me that the way she views love is nothing short of manipulation.  Since I claim to love her, I need to accept/respect how she sees/wants everything and since she doesn't love me, she has no 'obligation' to reciprocate. 

WC

[formflier]

Yesterday, my W was telling me that I don't do anything that shows her that I love her.  I asked her what I could do to show her that I love her and her response was that she could not tell that, I need to figure it out.  

This is a tactical rabbit hole.  The choice you made was to chase the rabbit... .

I see only two healthy ways to exit this.

Stay in your head, be nonchalant and sort of wonder aloud (with bemusement):  "Goodness Babe... I'm not a mind reader, but listening is important to me.  Let's talk when it's a good time for you to share."

exit

Next time it comes up... .go right back to "her view"  of how she can feel love.  Don't address you figuring it out... .you aren't a mind reader.  

Or... .try to move to your heart and hers and validate.

My guess is lean towards validating questions... .

 

Validating Questions

FF

[Notwendy]

Since I claim to love her, I need to accept/respect how she sees/wants everything and since she doesn't love me, she has no 'obligation' to reciprocate.  


What do you think about this statement? Does it make any sense to you?


her response was that she could not tell that, I need to figure it out.

Can you read people's minds? I can't. Sometimes I have to say to someone " I don't want to disappoint you but I can not read people's minds and I can't read yours. I need you to tell me what you want".

[BeagleGirl]

I need to figure it out. 

None of those things were showing love because she didn't ask for them. 

This is an opportunity to express some confusion and ask for clarification.  You can also say something like "I am hoping that eventually I will know what feels loving to you without you having to tell me, but at the moment I am hearing from you that I don't because the things I am doing that I think will show you I love you aren't what you want.  I am happy to have you coach me or read any books that you think might help me learn, but if you aren't willing to give me guidance then I'm just going to keep doing what I think is best and hope that you can learn to hear "I love you" the way I say it."

Having been through plenty of discussions like this, I am of the opinion that it's a "rabbit to chase" kind of thing rather than an actual invitation to change, but maybe you can shift it that direction.  What you don't want to do is "chase the rabbit".  By giving her a (reasonable) expectation of what you are willing to do and pointing out the limitations you're facing, you have done your job.  Ball is now in her court.

I would also advise avoiding the temptation to turn the conversation back on her with "Well, you don't show me love either" kind of statements.  Keep the conversation "clean" by focusing on the topic of what you can do to show your love for her then, once that conversation is done, maybe say something like "I think you've brought up a good topic that I think applies to me as well.  Would you be willing to have a conversation about how you express your love for me and how I feel I would like that love to be expressed?"

BG

[Cat Familiar]

The first thing that occurs to me is that you're speaking different Love Languages. You've probably heard about the different types: Acts of Service, Quality Time, Receiving Gifts, Words of Affirmation, Physical Touch.  https://www.5lovelanguages.com

I would guess that you're an Acts of Service guy and that your wife is not a Receiving Gifts gal.

It's really difficult when you get into the jumping through hoops expectation of "You figure out how to make me feel loved. I'm not gonna tell you. You should know."

Of course you don't know. How does anyone know how someone else feels if they're unwilling to speak their mind about it?

formflier, Notwendy, and BeagleGirl have provided some great advice here.

[Woodchuck]

BeagleGirl-
Thank you for the input.  I do agree that it is really just a rabbit hole.  While I can see your point about not turning the conversation back to her, it seems as though that is about the only option at this point.  Either that or just walking away, which may have been a better choice.  I have expressed confusion and asked for clarification more times than I can count and the response that I get is either that I need to figure it out or that she is not going to give me a 'checklist'.  I did tell her last night that I am going to just continue to do what I believe is right and that I will not continue to try to play the game of trying to figure it out.

NotWendy-
I think the statement is a good example of how she wants things.  It makes sense to me in the respect of how our relationship is.  Does it make sense in a 'normal' and healthy relationship?  No, not at all.  As we see on here all the time, it is classic BPD or PD of some sort where the only thing that matters is the needs of the PWPD.  

FF-
I am continuing to work on asking validating questions.  It is a bit difficult as that answers that I typically get are either 'I don't know', 'I don't want to talk about it', 'I have nothing to say', 'You should know or if you loved me you would know'.  With that being said, I see some value in turning it back on her as it resulted in her communicating how she feels, she doesn't claim to love me.  With that statement, it is much easier for me to just focus on doing what I believe is right and not feel the 'need' to try to make her feel loved.  I don't know if that makes sense but as hurtful as her statement was, it was also freeing in a way.

[formflier]

   I did tell her last night that I am going to just continue to do what I believe is right and that I will not continue to try to play the game of trying to figure it out.
 

Ugg... .

She says "you are doing it wrong" (clarity... paraphrase)

you say "I'm going to continue doing it" (paraphrase)

That seems to me to be a "yes it is no it isn't" argument.  Can you see that? 

Stop arguing.

"you are doing it wrong... "

WC: "Oh my... .I'm listening."

Keep listening as long as it isn't abusive or blaming... .or if it starts getting long.  I would say 10 min is safe bet to shot for.

At 10 minutes "Hey... this seems important to you.  How about we talk more over dinner?"

Thoughts?

Peel back the layers... what is "really" being said.

FF

[Woodchuck]

The first thing that occurs to me is that you're speaking different Love Languages. You've probably heard about the different types: Acts of Service, Quality Time, Receiving Gifts, Words of Affirmation, Physical Touch.  https://www.5lovelanguages.com

I would guess that you're an Acts of Service guy and that your wife is not a Receiving Gifts gal.

It's really difficult when you get into the jumping through hoops expectation of "You figure out how to make me feel loved. I'm not gonna tell you. You should know."

Of course you don't know. How does anyone know how someone else feels if they're unwilling to speak their mind about it?

formflier, Notwendy, and BeagleGirl have provided some great advice here.

Cat-

I agree that we have different love languages.  The problem is that she keeps hers hidden, it doesn't matter whether it is a gift, words of affirmation, physical touch, acts of service or quality time.  There is an excuse that she has for each and every one of those.  I have read the 5 love languages multiple times.  In fact we read it together when we first got marred.


Gifts - She hates gifts whether it is something like flowers or something practical

Words of affirmation-I have spoken and written countless times words of affirmation.  The latest being telling her that she looked cute a few days ago.  Her response to that was telling me that she did not want my opinion, positive or negative about how she looks.  The same would go for affirming anything that she does.  She has stated many times that my words are worthless to her.

Physical touch - I don't even know where to begin here.  She told me last week that physical touch/sex means nothing to her.  She stated that she has just had sex with me for the last several years to meet my physical needs and that there has been no intimacy etc.  

Acts of service - Unless she explicitly asks me to do something, any act of service is unloving because she did not ask me to do it.  Replacing the tires on her car is unloving and self serving according to her because I didnt ask her if she wanted her tires replaced.  The lost car remote was another example of how it was not loving and self serving in her eyes for me to try to help.

Quality time - She refuses virtually any attempt to spend time together and makes no effort to set anything up to spend time together.  She claims that she is either too busy or too tired.  
 

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Woodchuck, As FF and BG have noted above, her need for expressions of love is a moving target.  I suspect that, if you guessed correctly one time, the next time you would find that the right response had changed, which is why I agree with your decision to discontinue playing the game of trying to figure it out.  

Since I claim to love her, I need to accept/respect how she sees/wants everything and since she doesn't love me, she has no 'obligation' to reciprocate.  

You summed that up well, WC.  It's often a one-way street, I'm afraid, in a BPD r/s.  Suggest you decline to engage in these types of discussions.

LuckyJim

[Woodchuck]

Ugg... .

She says "you are doing it wrong" (clarity... paraphrase)

you say "I'm going to continue doing it" (paraphrase)

That seems to me to be a "yes it is no it isn't" argument.  Can you see that? 

Stop arguing.

"you are doing it wrong... "

WC: "Oh my... .I'm listening."

Keep listening as long as it isn't abusive or blaming... .or if it starts getting long.  I would say 10 min is safe bet to shot for.

At 10 minutes "Hey... this seems important to you.  How about we talk more over dinner?"

Thoughts?

Peel back the layers... what is "really" being said.

FF

FF-

The part that is missing in the first couple of lines is that I have literally spent years responding to her saying that I am doing it wrong with questions such as (paraphrase) 'How can I do it right' and she will not answer the question.  I have given her countless opportunities to tell me how to do it right.  I am at the point where I am done with that 'game'.  This 'doing what I believe is right' thing is not just doing things that she does not agree with, it includes things like continuing to tell her that I love her, not cancelling her cell phone when she would be happy for me to do so, continuing to try to reach out (literally extending my hand for her to hold) knowing full well that she will most likely refuse.  

[Woodchuck]

Hey Woodchuck, As FF and BG have noted above, her need for expressions of love is a moving target.  I suspect that, if you guessed correctly one time, the next time you would find that the right response had changed, which is why I agree with your decision to discontinue playing the game of trying to figure it out.  

You summed that up well, WC.  It's often a one-way street, I'm afraid, in a BPD r/s.  Suggest you decline to engage in these types of discussions.

LuckyJim

I think it is more than a moving target.  I think that it is a hidden target.  Even if I do mange to hit the target, she will still tell me that I missed the target.  Making sure that I know that I 'missed' allows her to maintain that I am not loving her so she does not need to love me mentality.  This is why she refuses to tell me, she does not want me to hit the target.

WC

[Cat Familiar]

It seems, Woodchuck, that you've been trying to get water from a well that's dried up. You've bent over backwards to try and fix things, yet nothing you've done has yielded results.

I agree with Lucky Jim that it's fruitless to engage in these types of discussions.

You've been doing everything you can as a responsible husband to make her life comfortable and yet she still doesn't want to extend you grace. Maybe it's time to quit trying so hard.

If she has everything she needs and you take care of her problems, what motivation does she have for trying to even extend you the courtesy of being nice and appreciating your efforts? Now she's got you caged and running on the hamster wheel to try and atone for something years ago you've repeatedly apologized for and tried to make amends.

She has no motivation to change her behavior. None.

[formflier]

FF-

The part that is missing in the first couple of lines is that I have literally spent years responding to her saying that I am doing it wrong with questions such as (paraphrase) 'How can I do it right' and she will not answer the question. 

Which is why you should stop asking.

If you want a change... change what you are doing.  Things will change.

Stop asking.

Go to validating questions... let her know you are listing.

Big picture... .you are looking for a solution she is likely looking for emotional soothing.

Stop looking for a rational... logical solution.  It's not there

Listen to her... .don't solve things for her.

FF

[Lucky Jim]

I think it is more than a moving target.  I think that it is a hidden target.  Even if I do mange to hit the target, she will still tell me that I missed the target.  Making sure that I know that I 'missed' allows her to maintain that I am not loving her so she does not need to love me mentality.  This is why she refuses to tell me, she does not want me to hit the target.

Hey WC, Right, it's a form of control and manipulation, to keep you guessing.  I suggest you take a step back and look at it mindfully, e.g., OK, now she is trying to manipulate me through F-O-G, etc.  Then you can make a conscious decision whether you elect to participate or just laugh it off (hopefully more of the latter!).

LJ

[Woodchuck]

FF/Cat-
You are right, I need to quit trying so hard and looking for a solution/trying to fix things.  As I am sure you know, this is not an easy task at all when you care about someone.  I do believe I am slowly changing and asking more validating questions.  It is a slow process.  I did have a session with my T again today and she stated that she notices significant differences from where we started several months ago.  

WC

[formflier]

Something that will likely help.

Offer zero solutions... ZERO... unless she invites them.

When you feel compelled to solve her stuff... .ask her if she wants your help.

Silence equals no... .the only thing that equals yes is a clear yes please help me.

The faster you get there... the faster a better relationship comes.

FF

[Notwendy]

For someone with BPD, feelings =facts. If she herself doesn't feel loved or loving, she could come up with her own "reason" for that. Also due to projection, that "reason" could be projected on to you. But are her reasons/feelings actual facts? I think you do love her so her idea that you don't is a feeling, not a fact. I also don't think humans can read minds, so her idea that you should know what she wants without her telling you is also a feeling, not a fact.

Your conversation sounds like something with no solution - what she's saying makes no sense. It's a pile of feelings and you can validate them. " Honey, it must feel sad to not feel loved" and just let her talk. But you don't have to believe this or second guess yourself if what she is saying isn't a fact. When she comes up with some reason why she can't love you, an honest " I'm sorry you feel that way" is enough. When you buy into distorted thinking though, you will lose your own sense of reality. You need to have a strong reality boundary. Think - does it make sense to expect someone to read your mind? No. Is is possible for her to feel she wants this? Yes. Can you provide this for her- No. "Honey, I would like to do something you want, but I can not read your mind" is enough of a response. When someone has distorted thinking- you have to be the one to hold on to reality.