When I got home, my family was gone | Part 2

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Ok, so, first of all, I had an amazing weekend with my daughter this weekend. If you recall from my previous posts, my STBX had been stonewalling me on my requests for equal parenting time. After some back and forth with our attorneys, I got 4 days in a row with my daughter and it was awesome!

I had put out a proposed parenting schedule a week and a half ago, and my wife still hasn't responded to it. So we are left with ad hoc negotiation, which, trust me, I get it now - that's not a good thing. My proposal, to be fair, was that for the next several weekends, I get time with my daughter, and my STBX gets nearly every weekday. It was a short term plan, and it was based on the fact that my wife does NOT work outside the home, has been around the house on weekdays for 4 years now, and has recently been out every weekend night for a few straight weeks. I thought it would be the best temporary solution without disrupting either of our schedules, but I could understand if, in the response, she wanted to adjust the weekends.

For reference, we're still living in the same house for now, both for financial reasons AND because the parenting custody details are obviously not finalized yet.

This is what went back and forth today:

10:00 am
STBX: "I will be picking D4 up at school and having time with her for the rest of the day."

DB: "Ok. I will be away on business tonight and will rerun to the house late Tuesday, after D4's bedtime. I will be gone again for the day on Wednesday returning late. On Thursday I will be spending time with D4 starting between 5 and 6. I will be picking her up again from school on Friday, spending time with her throughout the weekend as I did this weekend. Please let me know if there is any time in the next 4 days where you will not be available and need me to take parenting time."

STBX: "I will have to review this and get back to you. For now, though, you had her all this weekend. So I would be with her this coming weekend."

DB: "Please provide me with an alternative proposal at your earliest convenience. My initial proposal that was provided to you through my attorney outlines the current availability I have arranged for. If your intention is to take parenting time on alternating weekends, this will require advanced notice on my part, as I’m sure you can understand.

STBX: "These things take time to organize. As I'm sure you and your attorney understand."

DB: "Yes. Thank you. I appreciate your cooperation. "

4:19 p.m.

DB: "Understanding that we still have not agreed on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, I would like to take D4 on Wednesday beginning at 3:30 pick up at school and ending with breakfast on Thursday morning. Please confirm as to whether or not you can accommodate this."

This was STBX's e-mailed response, copying her attorney:

This is in reference to our text exchange of today

It was originally my hope that we could pull together temporary arrangements regarding parenting time between ourselves. However, that's not working well. Please route these requests through the attorneys until we reach a more solidified position.

I don't get this... .doesn't this put my STBX in a negative light with her unwillingness to work directly with me? Is this the beginning of her sabotaging herself? Or is she making some sort of power move that I'm missing?

Any help interpreting this would be appreciated. And also, are there any tricks to being able to communicate better here in this kind of "early stage" ad hoc situation? Or would I be better of forcing the issue sooner rather than later to get things legally nailed down?When I got home, my family was gone | Part 1
When I got home, my family was gone | Part 2
When I got home, my family was gone | Part 3
When I got home, my family was gone | Part 4
When I got home, my family was gone | Part 5
When I got home, my family was gone | Part 6

[DaddyBear77]

Ok, so, first of all, I had an amazing weekend with my daughter this weekend. If you recall from my previous posts, my STBX had been stonewalling me on my requests for equal parenting time. After some back and forth with our attorneys, I got 4 days in a row with my daughter and it was awesome!

I had put out a proposed parenting schedule a week and a half ago, and my wife still hasn't responded to it. So we are left with ad hoc negotiation, which, trust me, I get it now - that's not a good thing. My proposal, to be fair, was that for the next several weekends, I get time with my daughter, and my STBX gets nearly every weekday. It was a short term plan, and it was based on the fact that my wife does NOT work outside the home, has been around the house on weekdays for 4 years now, and has recently been out every weekend night for a few straight weeks. I thought it would be the best temporary solution without disrupting either of our schedules, but I could understand if, in the response, she wanted to adjust the weekends.

For reference, we're still living in the same house for now, both for financial reasons AND because the parenting custody details are obviously not finalized yet.

This is what went back and forth today:

10:00 am
STBX: "I will be picking D4 up at school and having time with her for the rest of the day."

DB: "Ok. I will be away on business tonight and will rerun to the house late Tuesday, after D4's bedtime. I will be gone again for the day on Wednesday returning late. On Thursday I will be spending time with D4 starting between 5 and 6. I will be picking her up again from school on Friday, spending time with her throughout the weekend as I did this weekend. Please let me know if there is any time in the next 4 days where you will not be available and need me to take parenting time."

STBX: "I will have to review this and get back to you. For now, though, you had her all this weekend. So I would be with her this coming weekend."

DB: "Please provide me with an alternative proposal at your earliest convenience. My initial proposal that was provided to you through my attorney outlines the current availability I have arranged for. If your intention is to take parenting time on alternating weekends, this will require advanced notice on my part, as I’m sure you can understand.

STBX: "These things take time to organize. As I'm sure you and your attorney understand."

DB: "Yes. Thank you. I appreciate your cooperation. "

4:19 p.m.

DB: "Understanding that we still have not agreed on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, I would like to take D4 on Wednesday beginning at 3:30 pick up at school and ending with breakfast on Thursday morning. Please confirm as to whether or not you can accommodate this."

This was STBX's e-mailed response, copying her attorney:

This is in reference to our text exchange of today

It was originally my hope that we could pull together temporary arrangements regarding parenting time between ourselves. However, that's not working well. Please route these requests through the attorneys until we reach a more solidified position.

I don't get this... .doesn't this put my STBX in a negative light with her unwillingness to work directly with me? Is this the beginning of her sabotaging herself? Or is she making some sort of power move that I'm missing?

Any help interpreting this would be appreciated. And also, are there any tricks to being able to communicate better here in this kind of "early stage" ad hoc situation? Or would I be better of forcing the issue sooner rather than later to get things legally nailed down?When I got home, my family was gone | Part 1
When I got home, my family was gone | Part 2
When I got home, my family was gone | Part 3
When I got home, my family was gone | Part 4
When I got home, my family was gone | Part 5
When I got home, my family was gone | Part 6

[Skip]

I think this is just the standard divorce drama, DB. Try not to get caught up in it.

You wife is flexing her new muscle and her independence here, a bit. She doesn't know how to do that gracefully. You are trying to negotiate. It's maddening, but its typical.

Everyone tries to negotiate a divorce in the beginning, but in the end, we all end up with the standard formulas used in your county. Most HC lawyers will encourage you to follow the formulas and to parallel parent until a year after the verdict.

Why not ask your lawyer what the standard custody/visitation packages are, pick the one that is closest to you needs, and draft temporary orders for the judge to sign. Her attorney will most likely tell her not to fight it as the judge is going to approve it.

It won't be the optimal plan and you will likely be dropping your daughter in daycare or losing days because you are traveling, but that is the reality of the situation.

[flourdust]

Why copy her attorney? Most likely, because in the drama triangle, she views the attorney as the rescuer. She doesn't see herself in a bad light -- she sees herself as the victim. But don't worry about it -- you don't need to justify yourself to her attorney.

As Skip says, this sort of fighting isn't atypical for early days. I will note that one issue with your proposed schedule is that you're considering it fair that she get all weekdays and you get all weekends -- it's more typical for both weekdays and weekends to be rotated between parents -- especially with day care and school, weekdays aren't really viewed as equivalent to weekends.

[ForeverDad]

Beware that lawyers don't wants to get in the middle of the day-to-day stuff, good ones will know you can't afford their constant intervention either.

I will note that one issue with your proposed schedule is that you're considering it fair that she get all weekdays and you get all weekends -- it's more typical for both weekdays and weekends to be rotated between parents -- especially with day care and school, weekdays aren't really viewed as equivalent to weekends.

Generally the typical schedules work best, they're time-proven and the courts are comfortable with them.  Non-standard schedules are usually for police, firefighters and hospital workers who have required odd schedules.  Rather than letting her figure out what she wants, really hopeless, just tell her what you will be doing.  Yes, she will complain, probably even refuse, but since she's not sincerely negotiating and you can't fight this battle every week, probably best to tell her what you will do.

For example, a standard equal time schedule for younger children (my teen son still has it in the summers) is one parent takes Mon-Tue overnights, the other parent takes Wed-Thu overnights and they alternate the 3 overnight weekends.

I recall talking about reducing exchanges with alternate weeks (7-7) since she made exchanges into confrontations.  My Custody Evaluator said that was too long for the child to be apart from me.  My lawyer exclaimed, ":)o you want the court to think it's okay for her to have your child that long?"

[Skip]

When you are divorced, with your work schedules, etc. what do you think will work best for you? Can you handle 50%/50%?

Here are your state's 50%/50% standard schedules... .
  Alternating every 2 days
  2-2-3
  3-4-4-3
  2-2-5-5
  Alternating weeks
  2 weeks each

[Turkish]

This can be confusing for the best of us, DB. Truthfully, my eyes glazed over when I read your proposal  

It took a while to get used to it.

Can you mark up a calendar snapshot (a week, and a month)? It might be better to view it at a glance.  Less confusing  (triggering). Given your business trips, I would leave that flexible.  

We are on 3-2-2-3. Friday evening through Monday morning are the 3s (me). Monday Tuesday her, Wednesday Thursday me, F-M morning her, etc.

[flourdust]

We are on 3-2-2-3. Friday evening through Monday morning are the 3s (me). Monday Tuesday her, Wednesday Thursday me, F-M morning her, etc.

My final schedule is a 60/40 split favoring me. It's a two week rotation. On week 1, I have M/W/Th. On week 2, I have M/T/Sa/Su/F. She also has after-school pickup until 5:30 on days I'm not available. And then there's a separate holiday schedule... .

It gets complicated, but starting with a basic rotation for a temporary agreement (along with any upcoming holidays that are important) is a good start.

[Radcliff]

Hey, DB, hang in there.  I liked Skip's idea of picking a standard package from the menu and proposing it as a temporary order.  Or, if you really prefer your proposal, have a livable standard option in your hip pocket as a Plan B.  Is there a standard option that you could feel good about?

Have you considered a mediator for this one issue?  If your custom schedule actually would be best, or if she has reasonable concerns with it, it would be nice to figure that out.  Sitting in the same rooms or separate rooms, with someone bringing the issue to closure in a session, might be worth considering.  Thinking about it, though, she may be likely to reject a suggestion of a mediator in an effort to maintain power, and if her attorney isn't a problem-solving attorney, a suggestion from your lawyer to hers may not fly.  Do you think mediation is worth a shot, or no?

WW

[DaddyBear77]

Do you think mediation is worth a shot, or no?

Wentworth, great suggestion, but my STBX rejected the idea of mediation out of hand, so I think that's a non-starter. I had the same thought, and maybe my attorney knows some tricks, but it seems unlikely, especially given the "talk to my lawyer" stance she seems to be firm on.

Can you handle 50%/50%?

Fair question, but yes. I do travel occasionally, more so recently because of new-hire training and backup of some recent team departures, but I just had a good conversation with my manager today and he's very sympathetic and will work with me. Sure, I will certainly be dropping D4 off at preschool / daycare during the day during the week, but its actually not a bad thing. As I've read, and experienced, she thrives in a social consistent environment like the school she's at. My STBX will do the same once she graduates in January.

Here are your state's 50%/50% standard schedules... .
  Alternating every 2 days
  2-2-3
  3-4-4-3
  2-2-5-5
  Alternating weeks
  2 weeks each

Here's what I've done so far... .

When I saw things going down the way they are, I found some online software to help me create a schedule and a plan.

On April 16th, my attorney wrote a letter to opposing counsel proposing a standard 3-4-4-3 schedule, which I created - it looked just like this:
https://www.custodyxchange.com/examples/schedules/50-50/3-4-4-3.php

My attorney shared the concern about weekends that all of you did, but we proposed it none the less. I could obviously build a new proposal which shifts the 4-3-3-4 schedule to accommodate split weekends, but the idea was make the proposal and let opposing counsel accept or reject it. The other schedule that would work for me is 2-2-3, which I would propose to be done the way ForeverDad described:

For example, a standard equal time schedule for younger children (my teen son still has it in the summers) is one parent takes Mon-Tue overnights, the other parent takes Wed-Thu overnights and they alternate the 3 overnight weekends.

Here's how I think it would look laid out on a calendar:
https://www.custodyxchange.com/examples/schedules/50-50/2-2-3.php

In any case, tomorrow it will be 10 days and no response to my original proposal.

So, tomorrow afternoon I have a telephone consult with my attorney and I'm going to ask her what our next move is. MY feeling is that time is of the essence, and at one point my lawyer DID say if they reject or refuse to respond, we'll just take it in front of a judge and get him to sign it.

Without that, here's my dilemma  - my STBX seems to be treating our daughter like a football. Once she has possession, she's going to hold on to the ball for as long as she can. If I sat back and waited for her to say "Hey, would you like some time now?" I'd be waiting forever (not that i'd ever sit back). As you saw, I've tried to be proactive and assertive and say things like "I will take Phoebe on xx days and I'll hand over to you for yy days" and now she's punted it back to her attorney (flexing muscles as Skip suggested? Looking for a rescuer as flourdust suggested?). Maybe I ignore my STBX and just continue to send her e-mailed statements like the one above? Maybe I change my tone (probably not)? Maybe my attorney needs to make another call to her friend at my STBX's attorney's office (this is what moved it forward before)? Maybe we just say to heck with it and go straight to the judge (liking that idea the most)?

I'm pretty stressed out and confused by this, so I really hope I can get some clarity tomorrow after talking to my attorney.

To compound things, I also just learned something else.

My STBX is going to rental agents around our town and neighboring towns telling them she's trying to escape from an abusive marriage, and won't they please rent to her to save her and "her" daughter from a horrible situation. She's telling them that I refuse to vacate the house so she needs to for her safety. I should probably ignore the drama in the message and just take a deep breath, but it's hard.

The other complication here is that the rental application I know about is in a neighboring town in a different school district. My daughter is about to start Kindergarten in the fall, so this raises big questions about where we will ultimately register her, the disposition of the house, and a bunch of other logistical stuff.

All these details seem like items that make my moves more urgent to get ahead of things - am I seeing this correctly? Or is this more of the standard early-stage back and forth that I should just calm down about and it will all work out in the end?

[Nope]

I agree with others that some kind of standard or easy to follow and consistent schedule is best. It's also the least triggering for your STBX. What I found whenever my DH tried to offer up a more nuanced solution with his ex she would immediately become defensive, believing he was trying to pull a fast one on her and trying to rob her of something and she just couldn't see the angle. So simple was always best even when inconvenient.

I don't know what your situation is financially, but it might be worth it to remind your STBX that lawyers going back and forth over every little thing is going to get real expensive real quick. My DH's experience was that our L was more than happy to be in the middle of the day to day stuff. And charged $25 per email.

Mediation may be worth considering just so that you can say you tried it that way before this ends up in court. If she's high conflict you can expect no resolution until either right before a court date or in front of a judge.

[Radcliff]

Or is this more of the standard early-stage back and forth that I should just calm down about and it will all work out in the end?

This last sentence kind of jumped out at me.  How would you answer this if you were replying?

Being serious, not flippant, I'd say keep calm like you would if there's a fire.  You'll be more effective.  But the fire will not work itself out.  Dealing with it quickly is easiest.

I can't speak from experience, but you are very organized, well-prepared, and a problem-solver.  Many, many people, possibly most, go to a judge less well prepared than you are now.  With every day that passes, it seems like her position gets stronger.  Reread the parts in Splitting about emotional facts and recruiting negative advocates.  She's practicing on the apartment rental agents, and undoubtedly getting a lot of validation.  She is learning from each one what emotional facts get the best response.  My inexpert thought is that you want to get in front of a judge before she gets more practice.

Double-checking my readiness assumption... .You have a great schedule, but are you ready for her allegations?  You've seen the complaint, so you have an idea of what's coming.  Have you and your lawyer made the necessary decisions and preparations to address those allegations as needed?  Are you ready to describe patterns of behavior?

Ask your lawyer what happens in court.  Find out if in your county there is a chance that your case could be referred for a same day "emergency screening."  If that is something that happens, and you are ready for it, your organized approach may prevail.  If you're caught off guard, her emotional facts may prevail.

WW

[SlyQQ]

You maybe a bit naieve thinking you canr reach an equitable sensible agreement that is adhered too.

You know your ex best though, but i expect there would be no reason to think things will be any less volatile vitriolic or exasperating going forward ( perhaps even more so, unless you can get a signed an agreed schedule it will only be a source of angst to believe otherewise)

with the possible exception your exes attention has switched to your replacement, where your daughter might prove a distraction to her.

[flourdust]

I agree with Wentworth -- calm down, but have a plan to make things "work out."

It sounds like your wife is in Bill Eddy's category "not dangerous, not cooperative." My guess is that she's not likely to work toward any kind of agreement unless there is outside pressure on her. For example, if you have a court hearing date on the calendar, she may be amenable to mediation before the hearing. Or, you may request some form of mediation in a motion to the court to resolve a temporary parenting schedule and other issues, and that may impose pressure to get it done by date certain or have the court decide.

If you aren't already doing so, I would suggest moving forward on creating outside pressure with great haste. The legal system moves very slowly -- if you want to have a parenting schedule established in writing no later than the start of the next school year (which can include details like what school district she is enrolled in, right of first refusal (look it up!), holiday schedule, swapping parenting time, etc.), then you need to get a motion filed with the court NOW.

[Skip]

My attorney shared the concern about weekends that all of you did, but we proposed it none the less... .//... the idea was make the proposal and let opposing counsel accept or reject it.

So I third it... ."calm down".  You don't want to escalate this to high conflict. Once that gate is open, its hard to put the horses back in.

First. You made an unrealistic offer. I don't think the judge would go for this except in special circumstances like you like you have to travel in from out of town to see your child or that you travel for a living.

Second, she has no reason to agree and no benefit to respond quickly. Judge is not going to question her actions as you are all co-habituating.

Have your attorney get a temporary order hearing on the docket. In my opinion, that should have been his first action, it sets the negotiation window. It's more to your benefit to do this than hers, so do it.   

[prof]

Hey, DB -- I'm really sorry that you're going through this nightmare.  The first couple weeks are the worst.  I'm a few months ahead of you in the process.  It gets (a little) better.

To compound things, I also just learned something else.

My STBX is going to rental agents around our town and neighboring towns telling them she's trying to escape from an abusive marriage, and won't they please rent to her to save her and "her" daughter from a horrible situation. She's telling them that I refuse to vacate the house so she needs to for her safety. I should probably ignore the drama in the message and just take a deep breath, but it's hard.

Do you have any sort of written evidence of this?  I send screenshots of all uBPDstbxw's crazy accusatory texts off to my L, and he salivates at how big a grave she's digging for herself.

The other complication here is that the rental application I know about is in a neighboring town in a different school district. My daughter is about to start Kindergarten in the fall, so this raises big questions about where we will ultimately register her, the disposition of the house, and a bunch of other logistical stuff.

Where I live, fall kindergarten registrations have already begun.  Could you go ahead and get her registered for your current address?  I'd talk to your L first, but perhaps you can beat her to it.

[Skip]

Where I live, fall kindergarten registrations have already begun.  Could you go ahead and get her registered for your current address?  I'd talk to your L first, but perhaps you can beat her to it.

In DB77 state, commonly, local residents wanting their children to start Kindergarten in a new school year will register them early in the same year between Jan-Feb, to start their school year in the following September.

prof, good idea.

[DaddyBear77]

You guys are spot on, and as a matter of fact, D4 is already fully registered at our current address as of early March. As long as the issues of custodial parent get settled such that we can base things like school registration off my address, we’re all set. This is a fairly big deal for me  because I live in one of the highest rated districts AND D4 has several friends already and it would be tough to switch so much at once. Either way, though, this ranks lower than other issues.

In regards to evidence, yes, I have a copy of the letter she sent to the landlord. I’m not sure how admissible or what help it would be, but my lawyer is aware of it now. We’re speaking this afternoon.

Ok, *deep breath*... .

I’m hearing all of you - just need to stay calm and treat this like a fire. Great analogy WW - thanks.

My lawyer DID actually say we would file a motion if there was no response, so I’m guessing that will be topic number one this afternoon.

I’ll keep everyone posted.

[Skip]

My lawyer DID actually say we would file a motion if there was no response, so I’m guessing that will be topic number one this afternoon.

I assume it will cover all the aspects of temporary orders, like possession of vehicles, debt, residences, bank accounts, what happens with paychecks, travel,  etc. You want to get this in motion before she signs a lease on an $5,000 a month townhome, buys a new car for you to pay for with your retirement account... . 

Temporary orders protect you both.

[flourdust]

Glad you are having that conversation with your L!

Filing a motion will lead to a couple of outcomes.

1) Your wife's L will be copied on the motion, and they will most likely react by filing a response (disputing everything you ask for) and probably including their own motion. You can follow up by trying to negotiate once the filing is out there ... .this may work, or not. Your wife may act out with you or D4 in response to your filing.

2) You will... .eventually... .get a hearing date from the judge. That date could be faaaaaar in the future. But that date can also provide an impetus to negotiation.

[livednlearned]

Emotionally, the post-divorce period is probably the closest any of us get to feeling what it's like to having BPD 

It's a pretty emotionally reactive time for both sides.

The difference is that you can return to emotional baseline and regulate your emotions. For her, she reacts in ways that hurt her and you. Problem solving will be extra hard for her, more so than for you.

are there any tricks to being able to communicate better here in this kind of "early stage" ad hoc situation? Or would I be better of forcing the issue sooner rather than later to get things legally nailed down?

Best trick I know of is to breathe deeply 

And maybe have a trusted friend read over your communication to help you spot stuff that could trigger her. You won't get it right 100 percent of the time but sometimes an extra set of eyes can help you rephrase.

Remember that your wife is emotionally sensitive in the best of times. Right now she's primed for emotional arousal. Small stuff will get overblown.

For example, this:

DB: "Please provide me with an alternative proposal at your earliest convenience. My initial proposal that was provided to you through my attorney outlines the current availability I have arranged for. If your intention is to take parenting time on alternating weekends, this will require advanced notice on my part, as I’m sure you can understand.

is probably why she answered with this:

STBX: "These things take time to organize. As I'm sure you and your attorney understand."

She felt patronized, is my guess. So she punched back by inserting her lawyer into what would ideally by a simple back and forth between you two.

She's probably also having a hard time keeping track of agreements and proposals and days and times and child care and finding a place to live and having her life blown up (of her own making, perhaps), not to mention the emotional nuclear bomb in motion.

More likely, she is reacting to what she feels in the moment.

That's maybe why small things like word choice in an email can set her off.

[Skip]

Really good advice in this thread.

[Radcliff]

She's probably also having a hard time keeping track of agreements and proposals and days and times and child care and finding a place to live and having her life blown up (of her own making, perhaps), not to mention the emotional nuclear bomb in motion.

This is a really good point.  There have been several recent instances where I assumed my wife was reading and understanding all court orders and lawyer communications at the same level I was, she wasn't, and she behaved differently than I expected.  I'm not a bit smarter than she is.  I just read the stuff many times to get it straight.

[ForeverDad]

I believe most courts have mediation ordered at the beginning of a divorce or custody case, second only to the temporary order establishing the basic ground rules of temp custody, temp schedule, possible child support, etc.  Be fully aware you don't have to agree to her terms just as she doesn't have to agree to your terms.  No harm in trying, it will show you are trying to resolve the conflict.  The reality is that mediation usually fails for us since our stbEx is too controlling and too entitled at the start of a case.  Settlements are still possible but usually occur closer to the end of the case, such as just before a major hearing or trial.

The odds of her agreeing to an offer you propose are small.  If your lawyer thinks she will use common sense and respond reasonably, then maybe you have a lawyer who isn't prepared to handle a probable high conflict case.  Have you read William Eddy's SPLITTING handbook?  If not, get it quick.  It describes the type of experienced, problem-solving, proactive attorney we need.  While we always hope to settle sooner or later, our lawyers need to be able to take it all the way to a drag-out trial if necessary.

I believe you will need to take the court route as soon as your parenting time gets dinged.  If you wait too long, the court may look at the crumbs you're getting and conclude that "it's working so far so why make a big change to what's happening now?"

While it's predictable that she would be describing you as a bad guy, it is a small step from that to filing allegations that you are a bad guy, either abusive to her or to the children.  Guess what, that can quickly move you into being a non-primary parent.  Sure, the court and lawyers will claim it's only a temporary order but sadly our temp orders often last one or two years, sometimes even longer.  I had two temp orders.  The first was for four months, the second was for nearly two years.  Both had me as alternate weekend parent... .over two years with 22% time.  Yet the final decree was 50% time.  Oh how I wished my temp orders had started better.

I've always been peeved my lawyer didn't try to get fixes added to my temp order.  I recently asked him about that and he said he didn't want to rock the boat, considering that my then-stbEx was filing multiple child abuse allegations in every agency she could find... .hospital ER, sheriff's office, quasi-county child therapy agency, children's protective services, etc.  He was happy the magistrate continued to discount her various but unsubstantiated allegations.

When a parent moves to a new state, a custody case can't be filed there until the parent establishes residency which is standardized as 6 months minimum.  Within the state or county, I'm not sure.  That is one matter to resolve in the temp order.  Usually one parent is designated the primary parent and the child attends in that parent's local school or school district.  If you or your lawyer allow her the time to move outside the area, it may be harder to later get a temp order favorable to you regarding the school.

[livednlearned]

I assume it will cover all the aspects of temporary orders, like possession of vehicles, debt, residences, bank accounts, what happens with paychecks, travel,  etc. You want to get this in motion before she signs a lease on an $5,000 a month townhome, buys a new car for you to pay for with your retirement account... . 

Temporary orders protect you both

A good question for your L is to ask how permanent the temporary part of the custody order will become -- it's supposed to be a stopgap temporary measure but often ends up getting rubber stamped into a permanent order.

Changing an order, whether temporary or permanent, is harder to do.

Another question is to ask whether you can agree to piecemeal parts of the temporary order and reject others.

For example, you may be able to settle 95 percent of everything, like the financial stuff, the visitation schedule, etc., but disagree on joint legal custody (or tie-breaker/decision-making, depending on how your state does it).

In which case, the order will say Mr. DB and his now ex agree to all these things except this one thing left outstanding which will be heard before a judge.

And then it will just sit there until you decide to file a motion for this or that.

No one explained that to me so I turned myself into a pretzel during mediation, thinking it was all or nothing.

No one explained the temporary --> permanent thing, either. And I had a good lawyer. 

Maybe in your state you can use mediation like that, where you agree to some things but not all things.

Walking the fine line between panic and calm is really tough when you start these negotiations.

You're handling it well, DB. It's normal to swing toward panic and it takes skill to bring yourself back to calm, even when things remain uncertain.

[DaddyBear77]

Hey everyone,

I've spent the past few days getting acclimated to the current situation. So far, there's solid evidence that STBX is already starting with the alienation stuff. I had to make an overnight trip last week and when I returned, my daughter was avoiding me a little bit. Then yesterday, I came upstairs to get some breakfast and my daughter said ":)addy! Go away! I'm not supposed to play with you right now!" I've documented each and every interaction like this. It's mentally exhausting but hopefully worth it.

I'm also holding down my full time job, obviously, which is also exhausting. I'm taking as few vacations days as possible but tomorrow is going to be one of them. I had my daughter today and I have her again tomorrow. I also have a pretty extensive meeting with my attorney planned. We're going to go over quite a bit so I hope to get as many answers as possible to the questions I've collected this past week or so.

There's absolutely no direct communication possible between my STBX and I - every simple request I make via e-mail, like, ":)id you take D4 to a music lesson today?" is met with her standard response "Please send all communication through the lawyers." I ignore this, and I continue to send them directly to her, as well as copy my attorney. The fact is, her attorney is taking 7-10 days to get back to my attorney, so if I had to wait for that, forget about it. Not to mention $$$

Sorry I don't have more of an update at this point - things are moving along and I'm getting to spend a reasonable amount of time with my daughter. It's fairly equal and despite the acrimony handoffs and parenting time are both pretty calm.

I will update again after my attorney visit tomorrow. Thank you for being here, everyone!

-DB

[Radcliff]

Hey DB, good to hear from you!  We were about to send out a search party    Just kidding, and no worries, we know you've got a lot on your plate, and you know we're here if you need us.

I'm glad to hear that you're getting good time with your daughter!

Regarding the things your daughter is saying, have you been able to record any of it?  I say that carefully, since you would never want to lead the witness or in any way pollute your time with her, nor instigate any incidents.  With that "high road" approach, capturing an incident might be a pretty rare event, and even if you caught it, it may or may not be useful, so it shouldn't steer your actions.  Just something to think about.

Have you started ":)on't Alienate the Children?" yet?  I got back into it yesterday, and am very impressed.  It raised my concern in some areas and reassured me in others.  You need to devour that book.  One of the things that Eddy says is that courts have a bias towards parents who support the parenting of the other parent.  So if you are balanced in your view of your wife's parenting behaviors, recognizing what's not healthy but also supportive of what is, and you come across in this balanced way to the evaluator, that is going to matter a lot.  If your wife is actively engaging in alienation, she likely will bring this attitude to the evaluation session.  It also strikes me that saying "talk to my lawyer" when you ask about a music lesson is not supporting your parenting, or any type of healthy coparenting behavior.  This would be something to mention to the evaluator.  If you are able to provide written materials, a copy of a pair of e-mails where you ask about a music lesson and she says "talk to my lawyer" might be good exhibits.

Keep us posted!

WW

[david]

Communicate as much as you can through emails. It is much easier to show the judge what is going on in print. He said/she said happens all the time in court and judges , in my experience, listen to little of it. Having printed emails as evidence holds much more weight.
When we finally got to court, ex used several legal means to extend the time, I had a pile about 6 or 7 inches tall of every homework that our youngest did. They were all signed by ex or me. I made one paper with all the information from the pile. Our youngest did over 95 % of all his homework when he was with me and the little that was done at exs' was so wrong my attorney even found it hard to believe. He was in grade school. I actually had one that was unbelievably incorrect. Our son argued with his mom that she was wrong but she insisted she was right so he changed the answers. He then copied the correct answers on a piece of paper and gave both to his teacher. He explained the situation. I had both copies. My attorney just shook his head and said he couldn't believe it. My ex is a registered nurse so grade school math should not be that difficult for her.
The judge looked at the pile and asked ex if she agreed with the top sheet. She did. That was introduced as evidence. IF she did not then we would have had to go through each piece of paper. That would have taken days and ex knew I was telling the truth so she had no choice. That single sheet was introduced as evidence. The judge is required to make his decision based on the evidence and documented evidence holds more weight in court than verbal testimony. Once I learned that things became much easier in court.
Finding things the courts in your area stress or look for and then providing it is the key.
Also, judges do not want to make a decision unless they have no other choice. Ideally both parents agree to something and the judge signs off on it. Second best choice for a judge is to find one reasonable parent with a plan that does not punish either parent but looks for the childs' best interest. When I learned that I always had a plan and several backups. I tried to anticipate what ex would object to and had a solution for the objection. I wasn't 100 % but I was over 50 % anticipating ex. It took time to get at that point. A few times ex came up with something I didn't anticipate but I did have a solution. Judges love that and go with it. At least I always had my solution approved. Eventually, ex viewed it as not winning anymore and stopped taking me to court.

[livednlearned]

So far, there's solid evidence that STBX is already starting with the alienation stuff.

This stuff goes on in conflicted households, it's not just a BPD/non thing. It can happen during a marriage, too.

Document because it could be useful later on, but also know that this is (sadly) normal stuff when a relationship is beyond repair.

How you respond to your D will matter equally as much as what happens in court. "You can't play with me? How does that feel?" is a good first line of defense.

":)on't play with your dad" says "You should feel bad like me. I don't want to hear how you feel"

vs

"How do you feel?" which says "I am here with you, I care. I'm listening. You're not alone."

[ForeverDad]

What I surmised from my two years in my divorce process was that little was entered as evidence during hearings, usually brief around a half hour, they were more like semi-formal ad hoc settlement formats.  Yes, the magistrate did have to make decisions but little was entered as "evidence".  That gave my magistrate more latitude, more discretion, in making decisions.

So my conclusion is that the more you get submitted as evidence or documentation will limit the court to making decisions shaped by the evidence at hand.  Some portions of the hearings were not "on the record".  I could tell when he went on the record because he would turn on the recording and state so.  So I encourage you to get things submitted or testified to "on the record".

I've always been peeved my lawyer didn't try to get fixes added to my temp order.  I recently asked him about that and he said he didn't want to rock the boat, considering that my then-stbEx was filing multiple child abuse allegations in every agency she could find... .hospital ER, sheriff's office, quasi-county child therapy agency, children's protective services, etc.  He was happy the magistrate continued to discount her various but unsubstantiated allegations.

[DaddyBear77]

What's really blowing my mind right now is how accurate everything y'all have been at predicting things. So thank you.

Had a long meeting with my attorney today, and we really got into the "problem solving" mode of things. I knew she would be good, but I hadn't quite seen it in action the way I did today.

We went over the full gamut of problems I have, and for each one, we discussed the potential avenues to attack the problems head on. At one point, my attorney came right out and said "She sounds REALLY borderline!" She also said "Look, I know your wife's attorney, and I know his MO. I can refer you out to some other attorneys who I know have back room, handshake relationships with this guy who might be able to get you a deal quickly at a lower cost. But none of them have the energy and the drive that I have, and I really care about you and your daughter." There was something about that honesty that just put me at ease with her.

Now, the truth is I got the eye opening smack in the face that this is going to be expensive. First of all, I have what's called a reconciliation agreement that I signed out of co-dependency. The agreement is horrible for me, and if I let the agreement go into effect, I will pay 100% of the debt, take 0% of the equity in the home, and pay my wife permanent alimony until I die. The good news is that we came up with about half a dozen strategies to attack it, each of which will cost less in the long run than paying what's stipulated in the agreement. At first it sounds like a no brainer to fight it, but, if I lose, I'm out all the money I paid for my lawyer and any experts PLUS the long term alimony. Also, even if I win, taking resources and allocating it to the agreement takes money away from the custody piece, which is truly my priority.

In regards to the custody piece, we talked about several strategies there as well. The option is on the table for me to file a counterclaim including extreme cruelty similar to hers. I would have to pull together dates and examples, which wouldn't be hard. I'm not sure I quite understood the pros and cons of this approach, so I still need to follow up on that. The other problem is that as of tonight, my wife has not agreed to ANY additional parenting time. Every request I've made has been ignored, and my wife has responded that I should send all communication through her attorney.

So, the last piece is that we've put out one last request for their attorney to accept or respond to the proposal I made, and, if they don't respond, we're filing the motion on Monday. At that point, it's my understanding that we'll have a date in 28 days for the hearing. I guess this means let the games begin. I also don't know if we're going to file a motion on all the aspects, including financial and the reconciliation agreement, or just the custody. I admit I'm still a little confused by all that's going on, but I'm also really, really exhausted already.

That's the latest. Thanks for listening. More as it happens.