Realizing that a real parental/child relationship isn’t possible

[JNChell]

Libra, this thread is wide open.

[Notwendy]

I think the understanding of abuse evolved over time. I was also experiencing some verbal abuse in my marriage that I didn't identify as abuse because there were periods of good times and he was generally caring. He also never did any harm to the kids. That would have been a deal breaker for me- it was with my parents and would have been with him. Thank goodness I didn't have to deal with that. There was no physical abuse so I didn't recognize it as abuse to me.

So, learning about my marriage, I came across the books by Patricia Evans while browsing through a book store and identified several examples of verbal abuse in both my marriage and with my parents. This was a huge eye opener. I read them in the car, then donated them to a library. I didn't want to bring them home, not out of fear of abuse but to give me space to learn on my own without an argument over them. but I read them several times and learned from them.

When my father first got ill ( he died after a long illness ) I went to stay at my parents' house ( alone ) to help out. As I said before- I mostly saw BPD mom in a family setting or with both my parents. I don't think I had spent several days alone with BPD mom since I lived at home before I graduated and went to college. For the first time in decades I was alone in the house with her for an extended time ( Dad was in the hospital ). It was a stressful time and mom was in full force- basically screaming and verbal emotionally abusing me for days. Before I left home for college my mother told me I was the cause of her issues with my Dad and I believed her, so I expected she'd have been fine. This time, I saw her behavior as an adult who had been away for decades. It wasn't normal and even though my parents pretended it was, I knew better.

I then decided I needed boundaries with her. My kids were older and she started enlisting them as her enablers as well. I put the brakes on that. I expected my father to support my wishes as far as my kids were concerned. I didn't expect his reaction. He was angry at me. He said "I just want us to be a happy family again". I realized this wasn't about my happiness-  I wasn't happy but if I was mom's doormat, then the stress in the family was less. My refusal to do so rocked the boat.

I was in counseling for both the marriage and  dealing with my parents. I wanted to help out, but both of them would be verbally abusive to me when I visited. Dad got a pass from me. This was not his usual self. He was ill. My mother was also abusing him to the point where I called social services on them. Ironically,my parents had been able to convince me that my mother was fine, but seeing her abuse my father was a horrible thing to witness. I realized she didn't just abuse her kids growing up, she abused him too.

Can I talk about it- some now, but it isn't easy- I still feel uncomfortable discussing it. Have I resolved it? Pretty much - but know this is over a decade of counseling. It was easier to forgive Dad as if it were not for him, I would not have had the good things in my childhood. I think he did the best he could. I have looked into both my parents' backgrounds. I suspect my mother was sexually abused, from her inappropriate behavior and her family would have been in denial. Nobody in her family would have ever admitted it and considering my mother's age, there is no relative alive who could have done it.  Her immediate family members have narcissistic tendencies and present the best of themselves. My father's background seemed normal, but in his day, people dated briefly and married young. My mother was a beauty and I think he just fell for her, later realized she had issues, and he had a wife and kids to support, and tried to do all he knew to do. There were few mental health resources years ago and people didn't talk about it.

[Libra]

JNChell,
I'm okay. Thank you for asking. 
I more often read than post (yep, one of those lurkers ).
Some things mentioned in this thread though are heavy on my mind at the moment.

My mother didn't beat me. My parents took great care of me in other ways- I had food, shelter, nice clothes, a good education, braces on my teeth, health care and some really wonderful times growing up. I assumed abuse was getting beaten, starved, locked in a basement.

That's me! How do you know it's abuse then? Where do you draw the line?
I've had it pumped into my head not to exaggerate, not to think about me. My feelings are superfluous.
Is that abuse? I still cannot manage to define that as abuse, to see myself as abused.
Moreover, am I still being abused then?

Thank you for all of the non-lurking work you put into this board JNChell.

Notwendy,
Thank you for your quick and open response.
You write: My kids were older and she started enlisting them as her enablers as well.
How did you notice this?
 
I need to process all of this some more. There is nothing useful I can add at the moment.

I am very grateful for this board and the people here. 
Wishing you all good and peaceful night,
Libra.

[Notwendy]

I've had it pumped into my head not to exaggerate, not to think about me. My feelings are superfluous.
Is that abuse? I


I think emotional abuse is hard to prove/define sometimes.

Keep in mind that, an emotionally healthy parent sees their task as meeting the child's needs. ( and this varies according to age of the child ), and the child is a separate individual. A disordered parent sees the child as an extension of themselves and the child is expected to meet the parent's need. As long as the child does this, things are relatively peaceful, but a normal child will begin to differentiate from the parent and assert themselves as a separate entity with a mind of their own, and this starts conflict. A parallel is an abusive marriage where the couple is enmeshed and if the partner who is expected to meet the abusive one's emotional needs doesn't meet expectations, the abusive partner becomes enraged.  

Abuse also can be cyclic and have a Jekyll -Hyde quality. The good times are great. But this doesn't negate the abuse.

Also consider the impact of socio economic status. Poverty is a risk factor in that there may not be funds to take care of the children's basic needs. Thankfully we were not in poverty. My mother came from a high SES family that is concerned about appearances. She looked good- and she wanted us kids to look good. Perhaps she also dressed us and took care of our basic needs out of a desire to be a good parent, but also not doing that would not be consistent with the other members of her family who did this with their kids. She would not have had them see us without these things. What went on behind closed doors was a well protected family secret. We were not allowed to tell anyone.

So what went on? Evenings full of my mother screaming and raging around the house, trashing the place, then the next day acting as and telling us nothing happened ( gaslighting ). Telling me I was fat as a teen ( I was slim) and that I had to lose weight ( I suspect she had some anorexia as she was very tiny and so projected that on to me). Telling me I was the cause of the issues with my parents and that they were planning to send me away. If I left a toy out of place and left the house, she'd either throw it out or hold it for ransom until she decided I was good enough to get it back. Making our Dad tell us we had to give our puppy away or she'd leave. Sharing details about her sex life with my father with me starting when I was about 12. Do I need to say more?

One way she gets her emotional needs met is to have people wait on her as if they were servants. So she'd bark orders at us to do things for her and it wasn't the task at hand she wanted but for us to be servants. This happened more when I was a teen and could do these things for her. She'd also be critical of us if we made a mistake. Heaven help you if you went to the store and forgot an item- she'd insult you, or make fun of you. She also used the silent treatment- lock herself in her room and have her crying children outside the door begging her to come out.

This is how I noticed she was beginning to enlist my children. If we visited she would want things done in the house. I would offer to do that and she would say "no, I want grandchild to do it" . This is when I realized that it wasn't that she needed or wanted the task to be done ( take out trash, wash the dishes) but that she wanted to enlist grandkids as servants to meet her emotional need for that. She also began to ask invasive questions about if they were romantically interested in others and knew she had poor boundaries about that, so I instructed them to avoid conversations like that.

There is more, but I think this is the general idea.

[Cromwell]

I’m curious about how much other members are currently doing for their abusers and why you feel the obligation to continue to do so.

I suppose my way of dealing with it was to amplify guilt, it seems in the absence of love to be a powerful one.

They stopped when they finally cottoned on to my tactic. It led me to a good few years of living in the best neighbourhood, hedonistic lifestyle.

I still keep in contact, iim a grown adult, independent of them (which they dont like). They are wealthy, yet I cant be manipulated by it. I really cant stand either of them, yet at the same time, I give credit where its due, deprived them of grandkids and following the type of career that they could both in equal measures - bathe in reflected glory to validate "what a good job they did". I realise how much of my own potential I sabotaged just to avoid someone else achieving what i can only relate to now as something akin to a narcissitic extended image. It became all too counterproductive,

 Cue: BPD relationship time.

I woke up one day and the hatred was gone, compassion fell from the sky. I just feel sorry for them these days JNChell, not enough to upset my day, but enough to make peace for my own sake. its my responsibility to follow natures course and evolve to become better. I cant do this by holding on to bitterness, being with my BPDx immunised me to holding grudges, It was an outside-in lens of seeing myself, holding eternal grudges that served no more value than to - sully the experience of living life for the moment. I saw how much of her life was wasted, in the same process, saw my own trickling away. My ex was entirely emotionally enmeshed, incestously so, I saw a woman brainwashed and I never once even thought about trying to put in my own way of destabilising it; for all that I did do to upset the apple cart at times, play with fire, that was one thing I knew not to even try.

Apathy, JNChell, maybe rooted in mild depression I carry. It works though, enough to concede defeat in being unable to change the past, yet not overwhelming enough not to forge ahead and live the future my own way. There is the saying "dont cut off your nose to spite your face", I did that for too long. Theres a new style of diplomacy these days, theres big boundaries in place, but it did take a form of awakening to begin to make proper sense of it all. maybe in time I will stop pressing the guilt button, but for now it is not so much lucrative as it feels compensatory; it is folly; what price can you put on that amount of emotional discontent?

there has to be another way.

[Libra]

Notwendy,

Thank you for sharing.   
I understand what you mean now.

I am sorry you had to go through that as a child, and that it continued into your adult relationship.
Congratulations though on seeing this, untangling yourself, and protecting your children.
It is commendable that you were able to create sufficient emotional distance an boundaries and to choose to stay LC with your mother.
I get why you chose this path.

Libra.

[Notwendy]

Thanks Libra. It's odd to recall my childhood. It was our "normal" and also, there were wonderful parts of it. Strange to have both wonderful and then this secret aspect of our lives. Nobody has a clue- and if we kids said anything- people didn't believe us. ( and we were not allowed to say anything about it). They have no idea how she treats her immediate family behind closed doors.

I can't change the past, but I think it helps to understand it. What is difficult now is that, she still has BPD and she is elderly. Were this a normal parent/child relationship, I would be spending more time with her, helping her but I tried this with my parents, and the level of abuse was not something I could, or should tolerate. I know it is best for me to keep a reasonable distance from her, and yet, I feel a sadness that I don't have a normal parent child relationship with an elderly parent. I know it isn't possible. I think if there is a normal parent-child relationship an occasional angry outburst or remark from an elderly parent won't affect the relationship any more than one from an angry teen to a parent. The bond is there. But to my mother I am mainly something useful to her. I don't think there ever was a normal parent- child bond on her part. I did feel I had one with my father, even if the relationship was affected by the dynamics with BPD mom.

[naturalturn]

Thanks Libra. It's odd to recall my childhood. It was our "normal" and also, there were wonderful parts of it. Strange to have both wonderful and then this secret aspect of our lives. Nobody has a clue- and if we kids said anything- people didn't believe us. ( and we were not allowed to say anything about it). They have no idea how she treats her immediate family behind closed doors.

I can't change the past, but I think it helps to understand it. What is difficult now is that, she still has BPD and she is elderly. Were this a normal parent/child relationship, I would be spending more time with her, helping her but I tried this with my parents, and the level of abuse was not something I could, or should tolerate. I know it is best for me to keep a reasonable distance from her, and yet, I feel a sadness that I don't have a normal parent child relationship with an elderly parent. I know it isn't possible. I think if there is a normal parent-child relationship an occasional angry outburst or remark from an elderly parent won't affect the relationship any more than one from an angry teen to a parent. The bond is there. But to my mother I am mainly something useful to her. I don't think there ever was a normal parent- child bond on her part. I did feel I had one with my father, even if the relationship was affected by the dynamics with BPD mom.

Your story sounds very similar to mine. Trying to deal with this "wonderful" part of our childhood, but also recognizing that there were very terrible parts too can feel confusing. The EMDR specialist I went to see last week told me to write down 10 happy memories from my childhood. I know there were far more than 10 times I was happy in my childhood, but it seems nearly impossible to recall them.

Many people have no idea how my mother treats me and the immediate family behind closed doors, it's like Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde type situation.

Though my mother isn't elderly, I still dearly wish I had a normal relationship with her. Now that I have a better understanding of her condition and the abuse that took place, it seems we never had a normal mother-daughter relationship. It makes me very sad to think this may be impossible and that's probably why I still feel some desire to allow her back in my life in the future as I dream of us having a supportive, kind relationship.

I am thankful for my father though as we do have a healthy father-daughter relationship, but I worry about him as he is elderly.

[JNChell]

Cromwell, thanks for joining the thread. Very glad.

I suppose my way of dealing with it was to amplify guilt, it seems in the absence of love to be a powerful one.

Were you amplifying this guilt from yourself outward to show your parents, or amplifying from your parents towards yourself. Either scenario makes sense to me. I showed this as me portraying my guilt to my parents as a very young child. I was reminded of it while my sister and I were settling their estate after they passed on 4 months apart. While going through everything, I came across “apology cards” that I had made for them out of construction paper and crayons as a young child. I know that I made these after episodes of abuse. I didn’t keep them. They were examples of me validating the very things that have landed me here, in abusive relationships and therapy once a week, although I didn’t have the understanding of the magnitude of all of this at the time of their deaths.

I realise how much of my own potential I sabotaged just to avoid someone else achieving what i can only relate to now as something akin to a narcissitic extended image. It became all too counterproductive,

I hear this loud and clear. “JNChell, you’re not living up to your potential!” How could we under those circumstances? Why would we want to? Honestly, I think it would’ve felt gross because as you stated, they were coming from a place of image and appearance. Our success or lack there of in their eyes was a reflection of themselves. I rebelled. Sounds like you did too.

I woke up one day and the hatred was gone, compassion fell from the sky. I just feel sorry for them these days

I’m happy for you that you’ve reached this point, Cromwell. I often wonder if my folks were still around, if it would’ve been easier to observe them in real time to come to a better understanding and healthier frame of thought for myself, than to witness them die so close together on the timeline with zero closure. Perhaps I could’ve found some closure. If not through them, maybe through a place like this to bounce things off of. As it is, it’s now finite. I’m not too happy about that. Especially not at this point in my life. I’m just now recently realizing and understanding that I wasn’t taught the tools to protect myself as an adult. I can empathize with you on feeling sorry for them... .to a point. Something happened in their young lives that caused them to behave the way that they did. The pain that they caused outweighs my sympathy. That’s where the multigenerational cycle ends.

It was an outside-in lens of seeing myself

Thanks for pointing this out. This is a great description of mirroring. Have you heard it said at different times on these boards that we actually fall in love with the mirroring thinking that we’re falling in love with our partner? I think that this falls along the narcissism spectrum a bit more, but the overlap is there. I know that my Son’s mother is a borderline. I know enough now. I also know that she has strong narcissistic traits. It’s an impossible feat. I’m not strong enough to try. I have my own crap to come to terms with and fix.

Theres a new style of diplomacy these days, theres big boundaries in place, but it did take a form of awakening to begin to make proper sense of it all. maybe in time I will stop pressing the guilt button, but for now it is not so much lucrative as it feels compensatory; it is folly; what price can you put on that amount of emotional discontent?

One step at a time. I’ve come to realize that there can be a narrative in this kind of healing/self realization. It’s backwards in a sense. We need to be hurt in real time, sometimes over and over to trace that back to the roots or core of why. It becomes simple once we allow ourselves to arrive there. It’s familiar to us in a deep seeded way. We didn’t choose this, we were taught it. We were vulnerable, and we continue to subconsciously make ourselves vulnerable to the same treatments because we want to correct the outcome. I believe that this requires a paradigm shift and intensive self work.

[Libra]

Notwendy,

It's odd to recall my childhood. It was our "normal" and also, there were wonderful parts of it. Strange to have both wonderful and then this secret aspect of our lives.

Yes, it is not easy to accept that what was normal actually isn’t, but that there were still good times as well. It’s a brain twister. One you shouldn’t have to be doing in the first place.

What is difficult now is that, she still has BPD and she is elderly. Were this a normal parent/child relationship, I would be spending more time with her, helping her but I tried this with my parents, and the level of abuse was not something I could, or should tolerate.

I get this. My mother is 72 now, and still going strong. But besides abandonment issues she has serious issues with asking for and accepting help. I am not looking forward to her becoming elderly and needy. My brother (the ‘good one’) lives abroad, so it will be up to me to try and support her. I am still getting my head around the fact that it will not be a normal parent-child relationship either.

But to my mother I am mainly something useful to her.

This. Yes. This is how it has felt for a long time.
And at times the complete opposite: it is very clear when I am useless.

I don't think there ever was a normal parent- child bond on her part.

Thank you for sharing this. It has helped me finally accept that this is acceptable.
There is no bond. There is no respect. There is only FOG, and duty, and expectations.

I did feel I had one with my father, even if the relationship was affected by the dynamics with BPD mom.

It is so good that you were able to see - and connect with - your father, even  though the family dynamics were wrong.
You can cherish those memories, and your children can cherish their memories of their grampa.

Thank you for your input Notwendy. It has helped me set some things straight I my mind.

Libra.

[Libra]

Hello Naturalturn,

Thank you for joining in!

The EMDR specialist I went to see last week told me to write down 10 happy memories from my childhood. I know there were far more than 10 times I was happy in my childhood, but it seems nearly impossible to recall them.

I can relate to this. I know my childhood wasn’t all bad (which makes it very confusing). But I can’t pinpoint any happy memories either. My mind goes blanc.
If you feel up to it, please continue sharing your progress with us. I am curious to know how your childhood memories will evolve.

Though my mother isn't elderly, I still dearly wish I had a normal relationship with her. Now that I have a better understanding of her condition and the abuse that took place, it seems we never had a normal mother-daughter relationship. It makes me very sad to think this may be impossible and that's probably why I still feel some desire to allow her back in my life in the future as I dream of us having a supportive, kind relationship.

I get this so much.   
After a lot healing (for myself), learning about boundaries, healthy relationships, etc. and with the help and guidance of this board and a T, I have gone from NC to LC with my mother. This has helped me realize the dream will never happen. There is no bond. She does not see me as a separate individual.
The next step for me was to grieve and to let that dream go (it still flares up sometimes). Now, I am trying to figure out what kind of a relationship is possible, knowing and accepting my own limits, and who my mother is. I know the brunt of the work for this relationship will have to come from me. I am still trying to figure out how much work I am prepared to put in, for minimal return.

Do you see yourself going from NC to LC in the future? If so, what kind of a relationship would still be worthwhile for you to have with your mother?

Give yourself plenty of time and take care. 

Libra.

[Notwendy]

It may be that you don't know your limits until you find out. When my father was ill and I went to help- my mother was so out of control I didn't get much sleep. I have to drive several hours to get to her house. My limit wasn't just emotional, it was also physical- I was afraid to drive without adequate sleep and physically not sleeping wasn't something I could manage. My parents didn't seem to follow any kind of biological clock- they ate meals- whenever, stayed up late, slept during the day. I know we had a routine when my father was working, and we kids were home and had school but once he retired there didn't seem to be any kind of routine or order. That may work for them, but I can't manage this. In addition, I had to arrange child care for my own kids to leave to help them and had limits on how much I could do that. 

I realize the focus was on my father and things were stressful, but there was no consideration on my mother's part for my basic needs- such as sleep or any concern that I had to get back to take care of my own children. If mom was upset at night she'd cry loudly and wake me up. 

I understand this was stressful for her but I can't be on duty 24 hours a day when I am there.  After that, if I visited, I stayed in a hotel- so I would have a quiet space to sleep at night and didn't stay as long. I don't expect her to see me as anything more than useful to her, but I realized that I needed to take care of my basic needs when visiting her and had to have limits on how much I could help. I also had my own kids to take care of.

[Libra]

I understand this was stressful for her but I can't be on duty 24 hours a day when I am there.  After that, if I visited, I stayed in a hotel- so I would have a quiet space to sleep at night and didn't stay as long. I don't expect her to see me as anything more than useful to her, but I realized that I needed to take care of my basic needs when visiting her and had to have limits on how much I could help. I also had my own kids to take care of.

You did what you could Notwendy, you even tried to do beyond what you could. 

I think taking care of an elderly parent is scary and draining even for those with healthy parent/child relationships.
So trying to do this when there is no bond, no differentiation between you and your needy parent ... .it must be so very hard.

It was wise of you to set limits in order to take care of you, and to ensure that you could also be there for your own children.
I can only hope I will find the same strength and wisdom within myself if the need would ever arise.

Libra.

[Cromwell]

Were you amplifying this guilt from yourself outward to show your parents, or amplifying from your parents towards yourself.

Hi JNChell, once again you manage to find something to give me that bit of extra insight somehow. I was writing from the point of view that as an adult I amplified guilt as a form of retaliation, but as a child it was heavily induced for me to believe that I was always the one at fault for anything that went wrong. I guess it was too extreme, to the point even in a child-like mind I held my own private reservations that "your nuts!" also the way in which they were anti-social to others to an extreme of "never" being wrong. It just didnt make any sense even though I couldnt understand - what any of it meant. I was also subjected to those polarised "idolised" moments, and treated extremely well, many of my peers saw me as "spoiled" in those moments. I look back now and reconfigure my thoughts - their way of dealing with their own guilt, as opposed to true love. Im ok with that, I can at least as an adult - rationalise it better.

I hear this loud and clear. “JNChell, you’re not living up to your potential!” How could we under those circumstances? Why would we want to? Honestly, I think it would’ve felt gross because as you stated, they were coming from a place of image and appearance. Our success or lack there of in their eyes was a reflection of themselves. I rebelled. Sounds like you did too.
 

Nothing to add JNChell, you sum it all up perfectly how I feel. anything less than president, an astronaut or a nobel prize winner - they would have found some fault. What id like to add was, by 19 I had achieved a respected career, id became more educated than either of them - they found fault where any normal parents would have been proud. There is not only the paradox of not doing well enough - but doing better than they had to contend with. When the "student outshines the master day" arrives, springs to mind.

Perhaps I could’ve found some closure. If not through them, maybe through a place like this to bounce things off of. As it is, it’s now finite. I’m not too happy about that. Especially not at this point in my life. I’m just now recently realizing and understanding that I wasn’t taught the tools to protect myself as an adult.

Hi JNChell, I hope you do - its your posts that I notice draw back to childhood that have filled the "missing link" for me since I came to this board. You know as far as ive gathered - having a personality disorder goes hand in hand with having some pretty impressive if ineffective coping mechanisms, denial being one of them. I talked about being 'brainwashed' by my ex, for example - but have to ponder - how much have they brainwashed themselves? Its a solid, seemingly impenatrable mental fortress erected up that would take a lot of skill to ever get down. Its painful for me to have to do some reflecting, what would it take for them to confront behaviour that has been negative over, well, an entire lifetime? When you read into NPD and BPD, reluctance to change, reluctance for therapy; its hardwired in. huge defense mechanisms to protect the ego. Im sorry you havent found closure, my parents are alive and I might have found some peace, but closure ive given up on; they are incorrigible and I have to radical acceptance it. (for my own sake)

Thanks for pointing this out. This is a great description of mirroring. Have you heard it said at different times on these boards that we actually fall in love with the mirroring thinking that we’re falling in love with our partner? I think that this falls along the narcissism spectrum a bit more, but the overlap is there. I know that my Son’s mother is a borderline. I know enough now. I also know that she has strong narcissistic traits. It’s an impossible feat. I’m not strong enough to try. I have my own crap to come to terms with and fix.

Im not too sure about calling it narcissistic, is it not normal to have friends that have things in common rather than the converse? Shared hobbies, values, beliefs. Like sticks to Like, muck sticks to muck. Birds of a feather flock together sort of stuff? Isnt a compliment better than an insult?  I really like your last line; lifes too short JNChell, when I say I found compassion, its rooted in a wake-up that forget about them, my life is finite too (existentialist crisis? ) and I dont want to sabotage or waste a minute more of emotional energy on it.

We didn’t choose this, we were taught it. We were vulnerable, and we continue to subconsciously make ourselves vulnerable to the same treatments because we want to correct the outcome. I believe that this requires a paradigm shift and intensive self work.

Im just happy that I "ever" started to recognise this, some go through their lives never finding it out. You give me so much to think about JNChell - it makes sense to the point of making me wonder why it was never so blatantly clear to me in the first place. thank you.

[JNChell]

Hey, Cromwell.

I was writing from the point of view that as an adult I amplified guilt as a form of retaliation, but as a child it was heavily induced for me to believe that I was always the one at fault for anything that went wrong.

Man, that statement hit me like a ton of bricks, and I’m sorry that you experienced the same dynamic. It didn’t matter what it was. I was mowing the yard and the mower broke down. It was my fault and it was dramatic. Insert any appliance into that statement. I was responsible for my dad slapping my mother, etc.

I look back now and reconfigure my thoughts - their way of dealing with their own guilt, as opposed to true love. Im ok with that, I can at least as an adult - rationalise it better.

I can do this a bit now. They both died in 2010 so my progress feels very delayed. When I look at the romantic relationships I’ve been in and the things I’ve learned, it’s not so mysterious to me anymore.

I’d like to add shame to your guilt statement. I believe that shame is projected much more than guilt. Guilt is acceptance.

how much have they brainwashed themselves?

I think I understand you here. I believe that we have been conditioned to place an undue amount of pressure on ourselves. You have mentioned in another post on another board that your anxiety level has a baseline that is so high that you can’t/don’t recognize it. I’m not putting you on the spot, just repeating what we talked about. If I’m correct here, we’re responsible for part of this brainwashing. I agree with you on this idea. Poor conditioning (raising) by our parents definitely has this affect. Mental momentum.

Its painful for me to have to do some reflecting, what would it take for them to confront behaviour that has been negative over, well, an entire lifetime?

21 years ago, I confronted my parents over their abuse. I was gaslighted in a way that is inconceivable to me. They denied everything. I had a cocked and loaded pistol shoved into my gut at one point in my adolescence. I left that engagement feeling crazy again. Questioning my reality. I felt crazy.

There’s a strong chance that your parents will never acknowledge how they affected you. What will it take for them to do this? The same thing that it would take for our ex’s to do this. Self reflection and long term therapy.

My parents are dead, so I don’t carry the burden of “what if’s” if they were still alive. I’m allowed to explore this and heal in peace now. I’m pissed off about the residual affects. Picking the wrong romantic partners and eventually sharing a child with one. Although, I’m glad that my Son will never meet his grandparents.

Cromwell, for you, the reflecting has to come from you. We were victims as children, but we’re adults now. We have to put things in place, whatever they may be, to be who we want to be. Along with that, we need to be patient and mindful to make sure that we don’t skip any steps along the way to becoming healed and as healthy as we can be.

it makes sense to the point of making me wonder why it was never so blatantly clear to me in the first place.

The only thing that is blatantly clear to a child is what they are taught by their parents.

[Turkish]

21 years ago, I confronted my parents over their abuse. I was gaslighted in a way that is inconceivable to me.

It was brave of you to confront them no matter what they said.  I never did; I just voted with my feet on my 18th birthday and never spent a night back in her house again.  I never had a gun shoved into my gut; that's unreal. 

The only time she kind of hinted at anything was out of the blue one night when I had invited her over to my friends' house for a BBQ. Apropos of nothing,  she said that the only time when she might have abused me was when I was 14 and she was berating me so badly that I dropped to the ground in a seizure.  Luckily it was on a dirt road rather than pavement.  She took me to get evaluated and was nicer to me for a week or so,  I don't remember.

I was so disgusted by the apology not apology that I changed the subject, going back into my habit of minimizing and fleeing conflict. I was the bbq master and I had people to feed.  That was almost ten years ago. 

A few years ago when my mom admitted to me that she was BPD I just listened.  I really didn't want to engage that.  I didn't feel like being her therapist,  which was a missed opportunity, yet I felt like I couldn't engage without anger so I just listened. 

[Learning2Thrive]

  JNChell and Cromwell!

Skip recently shared an article on another thread that has been an incredible eye opener for me. It may or may not offer insight to you.  It’s on skapegoating. My mother rotated golden child status and skapegoat status among me and my 3 siblings. I never really considered that I am now the permanent skapegoat until I read it:

https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/blameless-burden-scapegoating-in-dysfunctional-families-0130174

It does have religious reference but not pushing of religion in context. Truly a fascinating read and explains so much to me I had not even considered previously.

   L2T

[JNChell]

Turkish,

I just voted with my feet on my 18th birthday and never spent a night back in her house again.

Good. This served you. It was most likely a very good move on your part.

she said that the only time when she might have abused me was when I was 14 and she was berating me so badly that I dropped to the ground in a seizure.

Wow! What an incredible validation. Yes. Sarcasm. I’m glad that your head had a dirt pad as well. I’ve read accounts where abuse victims end up with permanent shaking. Their nervous system has been permanently damaged by extreme abuse.

What amazes me is that you’re still able to care for and interact in a loving way with your abusers. It’s confusing to be honest. I read all of your stuff here.

I was so disgusted by the apology not apology that I changed the subject

My dad tried something similar over the phone. Mom was dying and he said “you didn’t deserve everything. You weren’t a bad kid.” I cut him off and ended the phone call.

which was a missed opportunity

Turhish, you’re a wiser man than me, but this wasn’t a missed opportunity. This was another chance to abuse.

[JNChell]

Thanks, big Sis! I will check it out.

[Turkish]

What amazes me is that you’re still able to care for and interact in a loving way with your abusers. It’s confusing to be honest

Despite she trying to "adopt" various dysfunctional women and families over the years,  she had no one else. It wasn't love so much as obligation.  I guess that could be love in a way. 

I read this quote a while back of a father talking to his son,  "do the right thing, you'll be punished for it,  but do it anyway."

My ex has given me grief about something like this,  most recently about being honest on a child support form.  That has nothing to do with what we're taking about here though. 

I talked to a buddy the other night who lives in another state.  I met him when I was 13 and in his words,  "your mom was always bat-s crazy." His mom was far,  far worse. He told me again that I went above and beyond with my mom.  I guess so.

The kids and I were going to go to the mountains this weekend.  Yet I can't help but feel guilt that I don't want to drive 45 mins north to visit my mother in another town.  It would be a 3 hours drive home from there.  S8 prays that his grandma lives to 124 years old so we can see her and that she's healed.  I'm not going to quash the faith of a little child but that long a life horrifies me. 

My dad tried something similar over the phone. Mom was dying and he said “you didn’t deserve everything. You weren’t a bad kid.” I cut him off and ended the phone call.

Why did this admission piss you off?

[JNChell]

L2T, great article! Much thanks big sis!   I included it on zachira’s thread on scapegoating.

[Learning2Thrive]

L2T, great article! Much thanks big sis!   I included it on zachira’s thread on scapegoating.

You’re very welcome, JNChell, my brother .   I have to say, I have read it a few times now and each time I feel just a little more FREE from the heartbreak. I can choose a healthy family now and let go of the dream that was only ever a nightmare.

  L2T

[JNChell]

Turkish.

It wasn't love so much as obligation.  I guess that could be love in a way.

Maybe this was how they knew love to be?

I read this quote a while back of a father talking to his son,  "do the right thing, you'll be punished for it,  but do it anyway."

I really like this. This quote, or a form of it, will most likely be used to give my Son advice eventually. I’m glad that you shared this.

I went above and beyond with my mom.

You most certainly have, and you should be very proud of yourself in doing so. You took the high road. The compassion that you’re able to willfully give is admirable. Your kids are very lucky to have you as their Father.

The kids and I were going to go to the mountains this weekend.  Yet I can't help but feel guilt that I don't want to drive 45 mins north to visit my mother in another town.  It would be a 3 hours drive home from there.  S8 prays that his grandma lives to 124 years old so we can see her and that she's healed.  I'm not going to quash the faith of a little child but that long a life horrifies me.

Your feelings are yours to have, but please don’t feel guilty about not wanting to see her. That feeling of guilt isn’t yours. Maybe it’s been projected onto you for so long that it feels like you should own it, but you don’t have to. Just a thought.

A weekend in the mountains sounds like a literal breathe of fresh air and decompression. Enjoy it with your rugrats.

I know that you would never invalidate S8’s feelings. He sounds like a sweet boy. You’ll be able to explain things to him when he’s ready, and he will believe you and understand.

Why did this admission piss you off?

Because he knew he was going to be alone soon. The “admission” was about him. Add to that that I had once tried to get them to take responsibility for what they had done and they (he) chose to further manipulate and gaslight me. He had his chance and he made his choice. That deal was closed and it was a lose/lose.

I did show him a tiny bit of compassion in the end. My sister and I had him taken off of life support. He had a DNR clause, and we finally cornered a doctor and made him tell us point blank if he had a chance of survival. No was his answer. My dad’s favorite musician was Buddy Holly. He had a Walkman and cassette tapes at the house. Late that night I took the Walkman and a Buddy Holly tape to the hospital. He was in a coma, but I put the earphones on him, sat with him for a bit and left. He was dead the next morning.

[Cromwell]

Thanks for the article Learning2Thrive

I read the past 10 or so posts last night.

I was dumbstruck

for the first time in a very long time, and one of the few times ive been on this board.

What happened with my BPDx, feels like it pails into insignificance, it was merely a conduit to taking a trip back into time.

I guess with all that is going on in my life now and just making sense of the brainwash I came out of, forgive me for not being able to contribute too much here, its because this is "heavy" stuff, and I look up to you all for the courage to tackle it. I will too but in piecemeal fashion.

My thoughts were racing at the conundrum of a child being put into a position to ever have an iota of though in their mind that, their parent would be capable of killing them, given the circumstances.

If that isnt the establishment of control at its most highest level, I dont know what is, i dont know what Freud or anyone else has to say about it but, im completely flummoxed it just doesnt compute and reading it is profound. Im sorry you went through that JNChell, all I can say to it on a rational level; your not only safe now, but you carried that to a day where you could deal with it - and I hope - overcome it. Can I relate? Yes, but it was something I thought I could procrastinate away forever.

I will try to contribute and tackle that one, on the day I find the strength and courage that you display here in doing so.

[Turkish]

]My dad’s favorite musician was Buddy Holly. He had a Walkman and cassette tapes at the house. Late that night I took the Walkman and a Buddy Holly tape to the hospital. He was in a coma, but I put the earphones on him, sat with him for a bit and left. He was dead the next morning.

I don't doubt your view of his motivations.  They being said,  what you did was very compassionate. 

As for my quote,  it seems a little black and white. Maybe,  "you might be punished for it" would be better.  I wouldn't want to throw too much at a little kid.  Like my buddy who thought that showing Saving Private Ryan was appropriate for his 7 year old "because he needs to know how much people sacrificed for freedom." 

[JNChell]

Happy Saturday, Cromwell.

I empathize with you on how making this new step (realization) in your healing process can feel overwhelming. You’re a much smarter person than me, but I’d like to give you some friendly advice. Along the way, remember to be patient with yourself. Be gentle with yourself. Patience is a virtue and important in the healing process. Along with this, I’d like to point you to the right side of the board  . When you feel up for it, do some reading over there. It might be helpful.


I guess with all that is going on in my life now and just making sense of the brainwash I came out of, forgive me for not being able to contribute too much here, its because this is "heavy" stuff, and I look up to you all for the courage to tackle it. I will too but in piecemeal fashion.

Your self awareness is healthy. It’s important that you go at your own pace with your healing. We’re always here for you when you feel like stopping by. I will definitely be seeing you on Detaching.

If that isnt the establishment of control at its most highest level, I dont know what is, i dont know what Freud or anyone else has to say about it but, im completely flummoxed it just doesnt compute and reading it is profound. Im sorry you went through that JNChell, all I can say to it on a rational level; your not only safe now, but you carried that to a day where you could deal with it - and I hope - overcome it. Can I relate? Yes, but it was something I thought I could procrastinate away forever.

Thank you for the compassion. There are children that have gone through much worse situations, and are at this very minute, than I have. Some don’t survive. It’s a sad truth and it needs to be told, IMHO, to create a higher level of awareness. You and I both know how much abusers/manipulators fear being exposed. I see this from the aspect of ”think globally, act locally”. I’m breaking my personal generational cycle with my Son. It ends here. Perhaps when I’ve healed enough, I can make the time to start volunteering in some way.

I will try to contribute and tackle that one, on the day I find the strength and courage that you display here in doing so.

We’ll be here. Bro hug.

[Fie]

Hello JNChell and everyone else 


thought I'd chime in, and come answer your original question. I don't know if that's still useful, as I can see that there have been conversation switches.

Still I want to contribute in saying that I don't feel guilty (anymore) about the NC, just to comfort and reassure people that such feelings are normal. The NC was initiated by my parents, but I would have taken the initiative myself if they hadn't.

There have been times that I wished my parents were dead. I felt very guilty about feeling that way. It's not that I wished harm upon them. It's just the constant worrying ... I wanted it to stop. Now I actually understand why I felt that way.

If I can be honest ... I'm glad I don't see my parents anymore. They don't have added value to my life as it is. I'm happier without them. Unless of course if they changed ... but I have accepted that they probably never will. Life can get lonely. But at least it's more calm than before.

x

[flourdust]

This topic has been locked as it has reached the post count limit. Please feel free to start a part 2 thread if you wish to continue. Thanks!