A moment where I think "she got it"...

[formflier]

So... .most Saturday evenings are date night for FFw and I.  We went to one of our favorite places... enjoyed a great meal and were catching up.

Lots of detail and stories about her classroom and how her students are getting settled in.  She has a lot more "problem kids" than she did last year (she is 2nd grade teacher).  Think kids flat out tossing a tantrum in class like a toddler... .she has a couple that do that.

So... .she said that what she is really trying to do is that make sure she understands what the kid wants and that if the kid pitches a fit in ANY way in order to get what he wants... .that she makes sure that child NEVER will get that, until he acts properly for a while.  She mentioned that the tactic "appears" to be working.

Note:  I was amazed that I'm hearing this... .because it's basically how I approach her.

She cusses me for money.  Wallet stays closed.  She is pleasant, I'll consider opening it.  Basically... .if she wants something yet dysregulates... .I make SURE that dysregulation NEVER results in he getting what she wants... that it doesn't "work" for her.

So... .I'm like "FFw... I totally agree with you.  Those are great relationship principles... .I try to use them as well."  (yeah... .I knew that was a little edgy... .)

There was a unusually long pause... .I could tell she was "chewing" on what I had just said.  I got the idea she was about to say something a couple of times... .but didn't.

After a while... she started talking about something else... .and the rest of the evening went really well.

So... .no idea exactly what she was figuring or working through.  I obviously hope some dots got connected for her about "why" I do some of what I do.

We'll see.

FF

[formflier]

So... .as I thought more about this post, there's obviously an interesting story.  I'm hoping to get something more from this thread than storytelling.

A consistent feedback I've gotten from you guys is a tendency to turn my relationship into a "parent child" vibe... .vice two adults.

In my defense, when you act like  3 year old... .

In her defense, things are so much better than they were years ago.  It can be hard for me to sort out if the times she dysregulates are "worse" than years ago or if they are "shocking" because it doesn't happen that much anymore.

I suspect a touch of both.  For instance... ."effe you... ." is something I rarely heard from my wife (like almost never) even in the worst of times.  As you guys remember... that phrase has come up lately in my relationship.

So... here is my question.  What suggestions would you guys have to lessen the "parent child" part of our relationship?

When she acts like a 3 year old pitching a fit... .I should ?

My usual action is to withdraw and let it burn itself out... .

FF

[Cat Familiar]

So... here is my question.  What suggestions would you guys have to lessen the "parent child" part of our relationship?

When she acts like a 3 year old pitching a fit... .I should ?

My usual action is to withdraw and let it burn itself out... .

That makes the most sense to me as far as reinforcement theory. Even "negative attention" is reinforcing. So giving adult tantrums no attention whatsoever seems like the best bet.

[Red5]

That makes the most sense to me as far as reinforcement theory. Even "negative attention" is reinforcing. So giving adult tantrums no attention whatsoever seems like the best bet.

Sorry could not resist ; )

WARNING!
Bad language... .

Yeah, “open your wallet”  !

A classic !

Love Y’all !

Red5

[Fian]

I agree that exiting the conversation when your spouse crosses a line is the best option.  I had a fight with my wife a week ago or so.  I don't remember exactly what she said, but it crossed a line.  I just said something like wow, and ended the conversation.  She approached me soon thereafter, and apologized.

[Notwendy]

She may have "gotten it" but I don't know if it is in a good way- gotten it as if she realized she was being treated like a child.

One of my concerns on the thread was over necessities like money for gas and groceries. Even if a child is pitching a fit, we don't withhold food or clothing from them. We also don't ignore the tantrum using something they want as a reward for good behavior- the tantrum is because we didn't give them something they want because that isn't good for them, not whether it is good for us. They may have wanted a cookie before dinner, or a toy they wanted at the store. It isn't good for them to eat cookies before dinner or learn that they get a toy every time they want one.

It also isn't good for your wife to indulge tantrums - that teaches her that pitching a fit or cussing gets her what she wants, but from your posts, it seems it is about training her to behave towards you a certain way to get what she wants. What this will get you is the behavior that you are rewarding but what does this do to your relationship? I think what we want from others is genuine behavior, not behavior motivated by " we need groceries so I gotta act nice to him".

Who eats the groceries? Who is in the van when she needs gas money? I assume a lot of the time it is the family eating the groceries and the kids in the van. The grocery and gas money isn't just for her.

Let's imagine your teen ager acts snotty to you. You don't not feed them, and you still get them to school ( either by driving them or letting them use the car/gas to get there) . But if they ask for money/gas to go to the movies- then you may enact the behavior demands.

The main reason you have restricted your wife's access to all your funds is that she has taken large amounts out to give to her family. Otherwise she seems to have been frugal and responsible with the family budget. So the unwanted behavior is giving money behind your back to family- and you are mixing funds for gas/groceries with tantrums and cussing. I am not sure this is good for your relationship in the grand scheme of things as these are two different issues.

[Enabler]

There's a fine line between 'not giving' and 'punishing'. I think we all agree that punishing is not the way forward as it will ultimately lead to resentment and likely contempt.

Similarly there's a fine line between 'withholding' and 'controlling'. I think we all agree that controlling is not the way forward as it will ultimately lead to resentment and likely contempt.

How therefore does one manage these fine lines such that she retains her sense of choice, there is a mutual sense of partnership and that she knows it's okay for her to choose things that are not aligned to FF's script?

She needs understanding that she has equal say in how the script is written. She needs to feel that the script is not already written and determined by FF. She needs to feel that this positive value from 'discussion' and 'negotiation' and that nothing is 'veto'd' by FF. However that discussion and negotiation do not occur with accusations and unkindness.

What emotions are allowed in discussion and negotiations? In FF's world is she allowed to be angry, is she allowed to be greedy, is she allowed to be jealous? Recently I had a debate with a lawyer friend of mine, he systematically banned words from the debate as 'inadmissible'. It was frustrating to the point of maddening to the point that we ended up debating what words I could and couldn't use in the heated discussion more than the topic itself. My point here is that if you curtail our partners ability to bring her emotions to the table in discussions and negotiations then we're restraining/controlling the argument itself. Anyone who feels controlled will likely feel one down, likely start to resent that position and likely breed contempt for the other.

Is your foot on her head? Is this breeding frustration and contempt because she feels like she is constantly 1 down and you are 1 up because she constantly feels like a child in YOUR school?

[Notwendy]

Enabler makes a good point. It isn't just about BPD. My H grew up in an emotion controlling family and this is his normal that he brought into marriage. If I expressed a negative emotion, it would cause a huge issue. I could not cry, or be sad, or be angry, and others.

To keep the peace,  I learned to put on a fake smile while all the time feeling resentment at the situation. The "reward" wasn't money but it was a more calm co-existence. It wasn't a good thing to do- he assumed all was fine while our marriage was tanking.

I don't have BPD and so I didn't have the extremes of emotions that you FF are trying to curtail. I am sure you would be receptive to ordinary tears, or a discussion about issues, but this may not be what your wife is capable of. When she feels something it may take over her. While I don't think you need to accept this behavior towards you- there are other ways to manage this besides money. You can disengage, let her calm down before you discuss things. If she cusses at you - you can deal with this in the moment " I find it hurtful to be cussed at and would appreciate it if you didn't cuss at me".

The money issue for household expenses can be dealt with by an allowance that covers expenses via access to a smaller joint account. The money you want to protect could be in a different one- no access. If she asks why- "it is because of prior behavior where you took money for your family without my agreement. I do not want to give large amounts of money to them"  and make that the issue you are solving.

[Enabler]

Small interjection... .what if she wants to give money to her FOO?

What if that his her choice... .

What if she wanted to give money to a charity you disagreed with?

Where is she able to exercise her rite to choice... .albeit choices you don't agree with?

[formflier]

She has a job... .and money... .and can make choices about what she does with that.

Same for me.

The issue is that when you make an agreement on money... .and then abrogate that agreement.  Time and time and time and time again... .you get to the place of "what's the point" about "pretending" to make agreements.

I'll try to come back to this thread in a bit and answer some more questions/issues. 

FF

[Notwendy]

I think what I am trying to convey is that this money issues is two different issues and you are combining them into one.

#1)Wife has to ask nicely and speak nicely to you if you are going to say yes to a request for money for things like groceries and gas. No if she doesn't. Wife has been generally responsible with money for household items.

#2) Wife has broken several agreements about money with you and so you need to control access to it. These breaches have involved her sending large amounts of money to her FOO. Wife is not responsible when feeling pulled to give large amounts of money to her FOO.



I think I and others agree on #2. Don't give your wife access to a major part of your income. She is not trustworthy with that.

#1 is what I have concerns about. It seems she is trustworthy with money for household items and the family needs food, gas to take kids places, and clothes and other things. Don't make these contingent on your wife acting only nice to you. She needs the money to take care of the family, and so she is going to fake it to get it but you may be causing damage to your relationship by this.

[Red5]

Ever hear the old times term; “butter and egg money” ?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.urbandictionary.com/define.php%3fterm=Egg%2bMoney&amp=true

Red5

[formflier]

I perhaps see the disconnect.

The last couple times she gave money to her family it was in the "less than $1000 range each time.  However... .she emptied the account.  I have to assume that if there was more... it would be empty.  She had access to those sums of money for groceries gas and household items.  We would generally talk about them... .but she got what she thought was best... as did I. 

It worked out... until she decided it wouldn't.


The stories of "why" it had to happen... were just whacky... .and it was "ff fault" that she had been driven to this point.  The issues she raised... it was the first I had ever heard of it.

This was from the account for household and gas.  So... I wasn't exactly doing what you guys suggest... but it was very close... very close.

We had an agreement that "never again" would money go to her family without mutual agreement ahead of times... and yes... .I had already agreed to birthday gifts and "normal" things... yet she still asked... .which i appreciated.

Amazingly... .I still attempted to reconcile and gave access back... trying to "separate" the issues.  The last event was... .roughly a grand to $1500 (likely closer to a grand) that she spent after mutual agreement to "wait".

We had agreed on the concept of getting a nice workbench for S17 but also mutually agreed that we would wait until bills paid and excess funds for it... .most likely expecting that towards end of the month.

During the first of the month she was going to travel to meet me when I was helping my Mom care for my Dad.  She worried about money so I told her there was "plenty for a tank or two of gas"... .the vehicle she drives takes about $50 to fill.  

I let her know which bills had been paid, which were pending to give some cushion and when we expected more money in (real estate money).  

So... she goes to Sams club and spends between a grand and $1500... .almost emptying the account.  

All of this was in writing (email) for clarity.

She says I tricked her by saying there was plenty for gas and I "should have known" that by telling her that... that she would think she could spend what she want.

Then she sort of wondered outloud how she could not be tricked or something like that.

So... .I created an account for her... just her.  Money being transferred into the account would be done by me with a note as to what it was for.  If $200 had a note of "sams club" with it... .she could rest assured that she wasn't being "tricked" and could spend the $200 at Sams.  Problem solved.

She stormed around the house cussing and screaming that the entire thing "was a setup"... .she took the card for that account and threw it at me... hitting me with it.

After that night... .I realized that was a point of no return for me.  Our financial relationship would forever be altered... . I still nee to find a link to the letter I wrote her and gave to her.

She essentially tried to let time pass a time or two and do the "whiteboard erase" thing... .

I'm done with it... .

Should she desire some pathway of "real healing"... .I might try other boundaries or different approaches.

Anyway... .no idea if that will change anyone's opinion.  Yes... a year or two earlier she had taken $30k from a joint account and moved it to her own account... leaving me with nothing.

Most of that went to her family, she did spend some of it on roofing at our house and used that as the excuse to move the money... "because I wouldn't do it"... .so "she had to ".  Note... she could have written the check to a roofer from the joint account.

The reason I hadn't done the roof is because she wasn't happy with the colors we had looked at so far.

The "real" reason I think she did it was punishment for not signing vehicles over to her.   She wanted them in her name... .several threatening voice mails and texts showed up that I better meet her at the DMV or she would tell everyone at my work "what I was doing".  

I already had appointments for the day... that I went on and did for my job.  I was public figure at the time.  She did go by my work... .told them a bunch of crazy... .(public government office I was in charge of)... .and none of that worked... .so she moved the money out of the joint account later that day.

No idea why she wanted the vehicles in her name... .no discussion... just "poof" one morning... this will happen or else... .

Honestly... the story is more complicated that I have written... .but you get the gist of it.  Anything I'm leaving out is essentially "more of the same" where she does crazy stuff and I attempt to reconcile.

Yeah... .I'm done with that.  

If she wants to feel controlled... loved... hated... .whatever... .that's her business.  Her feelings... her responsibility to manage.

I'll manage the money I bring into the house... .without the crazy.  Which... compared to before I "started doing this method"... was much... much worse.

FF

[Enabler]

I'm speechless... .which is rare... .

To plagiarize something I wrote on another thread re sources of controlling behaviour:

- as a function of the chaotic relationship, loss of confidence in the integrity of the other partners decision making ability, loss of trust in their opinion and such an unwillingness to work in a partnership/on the same level as the other i.e. "Your choices have caused me (and the family) pain and suffering over the years, I no longer believe that you can be trusted to make decisions and therefore I will place more importance on my own opinion and less on yours, I would like to work in partnership with you but your chaotic thoughts make it unsafe to do so." The likely clue to this would be multiple attempts to include partner in decision make, allow her to make decisions but constant failure on the partners part to follow through. e.g. Alcoholic partner who consistently says they will stop drinking. They took temporary control.

You've tried to offer control and she has consistently failed to adhere to sensible rules, rules that were clearly intended to protect household security and were agreed upon.

I suppose to only area left to critique is, how were 'the rules' decided? Was there mutual consent or was she 'told'? I have tried many times to get my W to come up with her own rules and she has either come up with a system with no rules and a very enmeshed insecure system 'believing' that she wouldn't abuse the system, or has flatly denied being capable of understanding these things therefore deferring to me to make the rules for her.

[Notwendy]

I get it FF. As you know, I was raised in a family that went into debt from overspending.


At this point though you have chosen one path ( with probable consequences) over the other path of no control over spending - and that would have unwanted consequences as well.

In the past it seems your wife has broken several agreements with you. I think it is due to impulsivity and also the drama triangle. She goes into victim mode for some reason, then feels entitled to take the money. It's important to keep the family as financially secure as possible- you did what you needed to do.

Adding the tie in to her treating you nicely though is adding a second contingency. You control the money because she is unreliable. She's going to not feel happy about this- this might lead to more resentment/cussing- maybe try not to control that or hold her to expectations that she's going to be nice about it. You don't have to tolerate abuse, but the be nice or no money aspect is bothersome. If she's resentful, it will be seen in ways.

It's not a great set of choices but in a situation where she could clean out the bank account, you need to have the breaks on that.

[formflier]

I suppose to only area left to critique is, how were 'the rules' decided? Was there mutual consent or was she 'told'? I have tried many times to get my W to come up with her own rules and she has either come up with a system with no rules and a very enmeshed insecure system 'believing' that she wouldn't abuse the system, or has flatly denied being capable of understanding these things therefore deferring to me to make the rules for her.

Adding more to the story is just more of the same.

And... then there is the odd thing in my relationship that BPD didn't show up until way later, after a natural disaster.  The "assault" on spending didn't show up until later after that.

I'll try to do as best I can.

Let's say 15 years of marriage... .she had complete access to everything, including having general and specific powers of attorney.  Why?  Well... .I was deploying when it was many time impossible to get a phone call to a  ship, let alone an email.  I remember the first cruise with email... .it was weird.  

So... financial planning was done via letter, letters that were numbered because they would come in out of order.  Really... .it was "financial encouragement" because she did have a good head on her shoulders.

Anyway... .she raised kids and I made the money and by and large she ran the books.  We would "meet" on a business date ever few months when I was home and make adjustments.  Once... .we missed out on buying a home (very short notice opportunity) and she led the charge to make adjustments so "next time" we could be more ready.

Anyway... .we did a normal budget and discussed things outside the budget.  Then we moved to the farm.  

Well... .stuff just comes up, so budgeting/discussing like when we had "city lifestyle" just became more difficult.  Farrier, vet and other bills come up when they come up vice when we plan for them.

Anyway... .she wanted a change and 100% her idea we made the "$100 rule".

So... .there was a budget for recurring things... .that just got spent.  No real discussion.

If either of us was out shopping or wanted something and it was under $100... .we just did it and informed the other.  It was ours to keep and use but if someone started doing a bunch of $100 rules in a month... .expect a discussion.  "Discussions" were rare.  This was really just a way to regulate ourselves.  "OK... I've done this twice this month... I really need to talk to FF or FFw"

If something was over $100 and outside of budget the expectation was "talk first".  If we couldn't talk the expectation was keep it "returnable" condition until we talked.

Again... rare that something was returned and usually if something was returned, we had found another solution that was a better value.

I was probably the "biggest problem" pushing for spending authority because I loved going to auctions and did quite well stocking our farm with stuff from farm retirement auctions and the like.

Plus... .(well all have our "things" right?)  The joke is that I've never met a trailer I didn't want to buy.  Dump trailers, cargo trailers, horse trailers, heave equipment trailers.  Of course... diesel truck to pull them.

Backups are important... I mean... .you can't have just one way to pull your skid steer around... .

Of course...


All this being said... it worked.  Even after my wife became paranoid... money was stable.  I can't explain that, but it was.

While she wasn't working outside the home, she made quite a bit from farm activities (goat milk, cheese, honey and she bought and sold several animals and helped manage kids doing that as well)

Plus she was a great helper in the real estate side business.  She was much better at the business than she gives herself credit for.

In fact... .the house that I made the most profit on EVER... .as a percentage, I bought sight unseen after she did a walkthrough.  

I was out of the country... .we had seen the place online, she did a walk through and called me telling me it "looks scary" but you can do "a,b and c" and get through that part cheaply.  (mainly plumbing stuff that I could do myself)

Perhaps weird money stuff showed up on that house because she wanted to back out of the deal right before closing, we had put down large deposit and would have lost thousands.  Then she wanted to buy it... then not... yes no yes no.

Perhaps she was worried about her judgment.

I kid you not... .I made back over 4 times my original investment.  Granted... .I didn't get it all back in cash since I hold the mortgage (I basically did owner finance).  The people we moved in have only been late on one payment in 7 years.  Completely unheard of.

That was last real estate deal we did... she didn't want any part of it after that.  This was the house were she snuck down later and "caught" me installing a toilet, when she "thought" she would catch me in bed with the woman that moved in (an unmarried couple with kids was moved in).  

Random detail:  My wife is gorgeous... .literally has placed high in beauty competitions... .the lady we moved in was "remarkably large" and perhaps "morbidly obese".  Yes my wife was convinced I was after her.

Reality:  I realized we were going to make a ton of money and was trying to hurry and finish the deal and make sure everyone was happy.

So... .even after that, it was a couple years until she moved the $30k.  The $100 deal lasted for 4-5 years, perhaps a few more.  We continued that deal when we moved several states away and I became a public figure.  

BPD was in full rage, yet money was still "normal".  Perhaps I had started using boundaries and other tools and perhaps she was starting to get frustrated at inability to control so she reached for the financial lever.

This was before I called CPS on her... I think this came a few months before that.

I still have the recordings of her threatening me (voice mails) that I better be at the DMV to sign over vehicles... or else.  Frankly... she sounded possessed.  (low gutteral... very threatening... very scary actually)

There is just no way to be succinct about this stuff.

After the $30 k was "resolved" there were several more "reconciliations" and "abrogations".  Some were her idea, some were directed by counselors.

Had I listened to our family I therapist during the CPS event, I would still have at least $10k more.  He basically said "set the rules, let her be mad... she wont' be happy"  

Unfortunately that was one of the few things I didn't listen to him on... and paid for.  

Now... I "give her space to process her emotions"  No fixing... .no help.  

Yeah... .I haven't written all that in a long time.  It's mostly there.  Anything left out is really more of the same.

Oh... during reconciliations she would do perfectly.  100% adherence to the rules... .until she didn't.  Then it was not a minor "breaking"... .she would clean out an account, blame me, send money to her family.

And this is in context of having just asked, I agreed and money was sent to family.  So... .ZERO truth that "the only way" was her taking it.

I do suspect that she was very careful about asking and asked for less than she wanted... but that is only my guess.

ALL counselors were gently guide her to understand that rules and structures are for a reason and she could verbalize how it must have felt to be "cleaned out".  She would repent... promise "never again"... .and then... .

Perhaps I over did it, but literally I don't think she ever threw anything at me before.  She has thrown things and broken things that have hit me... but I'm certain I wasn't the target.

And no... .he card hitting me didn't physically hurt.  But I knew at that moment our relationship would change forever.  Even if she were to agree to "real" therapy and "get better", I find it highly unlikely that I would ever again give her access anywhere close to what she had before.

Sad... but it is what it is.  I made a decision to "limit the crazy" in my life (which by and large has worked)... .I realized that I can't "eliminate the crazy".

I also made a decision that she was going to do and feel whatever... .and I would give her space to do that.

Frankly... I've stopped trying to control her outbursts.  I have started trying to control people that listen to it.

So... she starts blathering and instead of trying to hush her... .I send all the kids to their rooms and have them close their doors.  I haven't had to do that in 6 months.  First few times were SHOCKING to my wife... .but she kinda "got it" that without an audience... .blathering isn't as effective for her.

Sigh...

FF

[Enabler]

Next questions... .

You have like a million kids I believe, how do the ages of the kids line up to these events? This might sound odd but my relationship has kinda gone something like this:

Great 6m - Idealization
Crazy 6m - Devaluation
Great / Crazy 2yrs - living in a student house with people we hated (collective battle)
Great 1yr - Pre marital and travelling together
Bonkers crazy 3yrs - Post marital realisation
Numb parallel lives 4yrs - post bonkers crazy emotional numbing
Crazy 6m - Something has to change as I can't stay numb forever
Awesome 4yrs - I'm not numb anymore I'm ready for kids, have kids and kids are under 2
Minor crazy 1yr - can't conceive kid 3, she gets down and starts demanding things... .wants to change things and looking to fill the emptiness she feels with current situation
Awesome 2yrs - Conceives kid 3 whoop whoop.
Crazy to catastrophic 3yrs - Kid 3 is over 2 and I have the snip... .so no chance of any more kids. She starts to go searching for the 'thing' that's missing to fill her emptiness.

My point is that babies and progress make her feel complete, she has everything she wants... .then 'poof' the emptiness returns and it doesn't go away. She goes looking for the reason for the emptiness. She found God, she found the other man... .they are filling the emptiness at the moment, and the reason for the emptiness is her 'abusive relationship'. Were things good for your wife because she could hate you had a collective battle, you and her vs the navy. It was actually your hardship that made you strong and she didn't go looking to fill the emptiness. Then you had babies... .more mucking in, she has everything she wanted. Babies grow up and become invalidating... .FF is invalidating... .hell everyone is invalidating. The spiral of crazy actions, emptiness and invalidation turn into a death spiral.

Have you plotted this?

[formflier]

BPD showed up at the end of pregnancy 7.  So... natural disaster, we are off the farm for about half a year, baby 7 born, move back on farm.

I'm sure post partum is in there.  Lots of stuff in there.  I focus on "truth" and disprove theories.  A preacher got me to the point of answering her question once... and then dropping it.  Things improved.  He wasn't trained in BPD... but understood that openness wasn't working.

Things got somewhat better.

I retire.

Things are better... .Baby 8 conceived... things improve more.  I believe "fixed".  

Baby comes, move to different state... .new job as public figure.  A few months in to new move... .theories come back... .with a vengeance.

Really bad 6 months... bad.

She agrees to counseling again.

Counselor calls her on factual statement... .my wife said she had barely talked and I was monopolizing.  Counselor said "I have a watch, FFw you talked nonstop for 5 minutes... I was paying attention to my watch.  FF talked for 30 seconds and then you overtalked.  This isn't going to work for therapy, each person needs time to think and speak." (or something pretty close to that)

My wife jumped up and danced and hopped around the room.  Wagging her finger at both of us... .blathering.  She jerks open the door and "hops" (this is a thing in her foo) out the door saying she would never come back.

I stayed... .counselor suspected BPD but was insistent she hadn't seen enough to diagnose.  Gave me SWOE.

FF life changes... .it now make sense.

I find bpdfamily

Perhaps 6 months of improvement through using tools

Money issue $30 k happens

Few months later CPS happens.

TS for several months with family T.  Massive improvements.

We live again in same house and steady improvements with tools and work from both sides.

There is a pretty good building year.

Then my disabilities get far far worse... .life as public figure ends.  We decide (mutually) to move to different state.  

Month or so into move after we are all in same house she goes to work happy... .comes home mean (yes... same day.  The wife I enjoyed life with drove to work... and hasn't been back since).  Like publicly cussing and stomping around the house mean.  

Police response to my house 2 weeks later to get rid of her family so I could sleep.  She really hadn't allowed me sleep in couple weeks.

 A month or so later I start seeing my current P (older experience PhD Psychologist with personal experience in her family with paranoia.)

A solid year of crazy with slow improvement because P is in my ear throughout it all.  Wife off and on goes to P as well.

Wife declares P not a Christian... .heretic... .blah blah and the religious battle lines get drawn pretty hard.

A year or two of improvement, with sporadic really bad stuff.

Last year has actually been pretty good, but when crazy shows up... .it's shocking and it appears to be "worse".  

By and large I let it burn itself out... .staying very aloof from the entire thing.

I still see P weekly.  We switch things up so my tools don't get "stale".  I've shifted my focus to my kids and other relationships.  No doubt my wife gets this.

When my wife is on good behavior I do spend a lot of time on and with her.  

My guess is you guys would agree that when she behaves badly I'm "ruthless" with boundaries.  

My RA is that I need to build a life apart from her and BPD.  I'll invite her along, but will slam the door in the face of BPD.  She can sort out her feelings on that... .

I'm sure I've left stuff out... .but I think what matters is in here.  

So... I'm all about listening, validating when it's not directed "at me".  The second it gets pointed at me (seriously... .if I stick around longer than 20 or 30 seconds I'm mad at myself)... .I'm done.

She does seem to get this.  We do spend much more time with her complaining about nasty teachers and others that are after her.  I work tools really hard there.

She aims at me and we're done.  Zero tolerance.

I sometimes wonder if that is some kind of narcissism coming out sometimes... and it may be.  My take is that she is not going to protect my heart... .God says that "above all else" I should protect my heart first, so I do so "unapologetically"

The chips will fall where they will...

FF

[formflier]

Found it.  After my wife threw the card and hit me with it... .I knew our relationship was forever altered.

I wrote and gave her this... .I can't really describe the impact... .other than it had a big impact.  Really good, really bad... swings back and forth.

I'm glad I wrote and gave her my letter.  This is how I feel... it's my view.  Sure it could be cleaned up with "tools" and stuff... .but that would be a bit artificial.  Part of the change I made was "more me"... less gymnastics for BPD.  Yes I still do tools in some very focused settings... .but I'm going to be me.

She can react to me... .vice the other way around.  I'm going to live my life... .and accept what comes my way as a result of being me. 


FFw,

Please read and consider my thoughts... .as you know…. there will be lots of words.

Given the events of last Sunday evening (the end of our joint financial relationship), Monday was a melancholy and reflective day.  I journaled and reflected for most of the day.  Towards the end of the day I reached out to (my buddy’s callsign).  As you know, he has literally been next to me in an E2 as I believed my life was ending.  It seemed appropriate to discuss with him the end of our financial relationship.

Sometimes your friends see things you are blind to yourself.  My conversation with (callsign) proves this adage out.  I asked him who he saw when he looked at me.  I presumed he would tell me I was unhappy and I should divorce... move on ... etc etc, especially given his divorce.  I was surprised by his actual observation.

He said over the past couple years I’ve become a more relaxed, happier and better person.  That I especially seem to enjoy being a Dad and he hadn’t a clue what I should do about my relationship with you “because we used to be such good friends”.  He further remarked that he and his first wife (his exs name) never had a friendship, certainly not one like he used to see between you and I.

Well... .what I thought would be a conversation to “wrap up” my melancholy day just got me started with “reflecting upon our friendship” and more about the last few days.  Please bear with me... .a few more paragraphs.

We seem to have “heard” the same sermon on Sunday, yet interpreted it quite differently.  That’s ok.  I do want to understand how you approach the cross and how God’s word touches your heart, even if it is dramatically different from my view.

I heard a message about people trying to “prevail upon” others.  How Paul stuck around when he didn’t have to, for the express purpose to “prevail upon” his persecutors.

Frankly, for a long time I have perceived you as my persecutor.  Trying to “prevail upon me” a notion that I think and feel things, I have never considered... .until you “tell” or “share your opinion” with me that I have certain, usually negative, thoughts and feelings.  Basically arguing about my reality.  

Pause... deep breath.  

I have no intention of arguing with you about my reality.  I do have an intention of “prevailing upon” you that we are on different paths.  I don’t understand your path.  I would like to.  I’m terrified your path leads to the destruction of our relationship.  I pray we come together, listen to each other about our own path and find a way forward together.

Please understand the path I’m on and why I continue in our relationship.  In my typical style... I’m going to have to ramble a bit... .more... .

  
I spent a long time Monday savoring a sweet memory of our best conversation ever.  Those were the favorite part of our friendship.  We had the best conversations.  Please share this memory with me in a way I will tell others... .for as long as God allows….
 
Summer 2008.   Our farmhouse was close to the river, lots of nice shade trees.  A place especially touched with God’s beauty, grace and hope.  FFw and I would slip away from the kids and sit by the river and just enjoy hanging out.  I usually talked FFw into being the one to lean against the tree so I could put my head in her lap and she would scratch and pet my head while we talked.

The day of our best conversation ever started as a talk about how well kids were doing with chores, driving the tractor and stuff like that.  I remarked how happy the kids seemed when they earned their “tractor qual” and Daddy let them drive and do things without Daddy around.

FFw remarked that she knew a big kid that was also happy on the farm (me) and  how I got to relive my memories of operating a little skid steer during summers at my Dad’s farm.  Here is the thing... .I hadn’t told FFw the skid steer story in years... perhaps only once or twice ever.  

The skidder was a little dinky gas powered thing, likely the smallest made at the time, but it was the “biggest” thing my Dad would turn me loose on and leave.  I was king of the farm... cleaning out hog pens.

To me, it meant FFw really listened…... the once or twice I told it.  She understood the power those moments had in my life and she understood I was now passing on those moments... in a deliberate fashion, to our children.

FFw “got” who I was and what I was about.  FFw was proud of me.  FFw liked what she saw enough to have a gazillion kids with me and let me fill them with my quite particular ways of raising kids on a farm.

We lingered an especially long time by the river that day.  I was flooded with emotion about how lucky I was to have her and all the different parts of our relationship.  She appeared so content.  I thought of all the different reasons why we were together... .an uncountable list.

At the heart of it... we were friends that enjoyed each other's company sitting there by that lazy river.

I stay because I keep thinking I can figure out a way to get my friend back….I miss her….


I’ve been back to that river bank several times... alone... .since the state of (way up north state) tore down our farmhouse.  I know that awful flood washed away our farm, our fortune and many of our dreams.  Perhaps the flood washed away our friendship as well…...

Given that 2019 will be 10 years since that flood and given that I tend to be stubborn and hardheaded... .perhaps I need to consider that our friendship is really over.  That thought saddens me... .I’ve been avoiding grieving our relationship for a long time.

I’ll be “sitting by the river” ... .alone... .for a while longer.  If you want to have a conversation about our friendship.  I’d like to talk.  


FF

[Enabler]

I stay because I keep thinking I can figure out a way to get my friend back….I miss her….

Dude, I am so with you there. I have so many memories like that. Me and Mrs Enabler have had so many moments that were just perfect, where we felt so connected... .me and her with a view, with a moment. Weirdly last week on my 40th was one of those times, just me and her, some normal... .laughs, recalling some trips... .I want my friend back.

Part of your heart resides in her, she is part of those shared experiences and part of the collective memory. Memories and 'good times' are somewhat useless on their own and seem somewhat meaningless. My W is slowly poisoning those memories like a tree slowly dying leaf by leaf. More and more of our existence together is being painted black, withering and dying.

As they say, Love is the only thing that doubles if shared.

[Fian]

I have a different view of the $1500 money given to her family.  In my view, the boundary worked.  Because she did not have access to the majority of the money, the damage was limited to $1500.  You could argue that $1500 was too much, but that could be fine tuned based on the amount of money you leave in the joint account.

I also understand the desire to help your family.  At times I have helped my sister, more often than not, I help my wife's family.  Not being able to help at all would be frustrating.  So I don't see her helping her family as intrinsically a bad thing.  You just need to make sure she doesn't bankrupt the family when she helps her family.

[snowglobe]

@Ff,
I’m so sorry you feel like you have lost a friend. You have a beautiful writing voice. I feel like I’ve been sitting by that lazy river with the two of you. It must have been a beautiful experience to be so loved, accepted and cherished. I also understand better the need to protect yourself, your emotional state, sanity and finances from an emotionally vilified person. I too, share the sentiment of not having my best friend around... .it seems that when the things were tuff, and we needed to survive on a day to day basis, financially, he was more rational, sharing and sensisble. Nowadays, the finances are the weapons of punishment. I admire your ability to carry on with life, relationships and child rearing all the while you are constantly doubting the outcome and reality.
I find it most exhausting for me to live in limbo, one foot out of the door, and always on guard anticipating the latest ambush. When my uBPDh doesn’t get what he wants- my sole attention in. Very negative manner with sadistic tendencies, he tends to turn up the heat. On. Cognitive level I understand that if I will not participate in this sick dance, he will embark on the quest of transferring the same emotional care taking responsibility over to the children. Emotional abuse is exceptionally hard to prove, as you know.
In conclusion, I want to tell you that your strength, kindness and guidance had helped me through my darkest times. I don’t believe in coincidences, universe makes no random mistakes. You have helped not just me, and many people on this forum, I wholeheartedly believe you are helping your wife in creating a more stable and reliable reality for her and the children.
I hope that in time she will be self motivated to get better and you will once again find yourself on the banks of that, or another lazy river. Warmest hug and gratitude

[formflier]

I have a different view of the $1500 money given to her family.  

Clarity... this $1500 was spent on our family. 

A majority was on a really nice workbench that we had agreed to purchase... but also mutually agreed we DID NOT have the money to purchase now.

I "tricked" her into buying it and spending lots of other money by assuring her there was money for "a tank or two" of gas.

FF

[formflier]

  You have a beautiful writing voice. I feel like I’ve been sitting by that lazy river with the two of you. It must have been a beautiful experience to be so loved, accepted and cherished. 

Thanks so much.

I'm a very "thoughtful" and "heady" person.  Takes a bit to get into my heart.  Taking time away to journal, think and pray can unlock it... somewhat.

That's what you see there.


Much of the reason that I am so "harsh" with my boundaries is "retention of energy". 

For instance, yes the $1500 boundary worked... .damage was limited to $1500.

Why stop there... .Why "waste" $500... or $100... .or $1?

Especially when she has access to about $40k per year that she can do whatever she wants with.  I simply don't have the energy and/or have decided to spend energy on something other that BPD.

There are benefits to that for me... .there is a cost to the relationship for that.  It is what it is.

FF

[Fian]

Why stop there... .Why "waste" $500... or $100... .or $1?

Because being tightfisted with money has a cost.  As we discussed before, each time she has to ask you for money is a potential fight.  Another case of building resentment towards you.  Reducing the fights would be beneficial towards your marriage.  You spend money on a psychologist in an effort to improve your marriage.  If wasting some money also benefits your marriage, I would view that as money well spent.

[formflier]

  I would view that as money well spent.

So... .what should I "spend".  What's the dollar amount?

FF

[formflier]

Because being tightfisted with money has a cost.  

See... .I've kinda "flipped" this.

For a long time I've "paid the cost" of BPD... .I've paid the cost of trying to improve the relationship... etc etc.

With quite dubious results.

Once I realized that I "had it backwards"... .and was doing a disservice by "protecting" my wife from normal, rational, logical consequences of her actions and words.  I switched my "strategic view"

There is a cost to cussing your husband.

There is a cost to abrogating financial agreements.

I could go on.

I don't pay those costs anymore.  I let the people that incur the costs... pay them.

I do get your point... .and I will pay the cost of my "policy" towards money.  I will pay the cost of not giving money when cussed.

If that cost is the end of my relationship... so be it.  Clarity:  That's not my goal, but I acknowledge it may be the result.  (also understanding a decision to end a relationship is very complicated and likely not "due to one thing")

The "results" of my policy are NOT dubious.  Far less conflict about money, although what he we do have is more shocking. 

I am open to changes in this, although I've clarified to my wife it will be through a licensed board certified mental health professional.  No preachers... .no helpful friends... .no books... .no articles... no marriage improvement classes.  Our marriage deserves the best... .I won't settle for less.  Looking back to 2009 when this began, licensed mental health professionals have resulted in improvement.  Preachers, friends, classes and books have generally confused things.

Lesson learned...

FF 

[Fian]

What dollar amount?  That can only be determined by you, basically how much you can afford to lose without putting family finances in jeopardy.  You then make sure that the joint account has less than that amount in it.

I agree that there is a cost in betraying trust.  The cost is that money is more controlled.  That doesn't mean it has to be the level of control that you currently have.  Also, why is there a financial cost for cussing?  You are picking financial because that is what you fight about, and it is an effective lever.  The true cost of cussing is a loss of respect and a broken relationship.

[formflier]

What dollar amount?  That can only be determined by you, basically how much you can afford to lose without putting family finances in jeopardy.  You then make sure that the joint account has less than that amount in it.

I agree that there is a cost in betraying trust.  The cost is that money is more controlled.  That doesn't mean it has to be the level of control that you currently have.  Also, why is there a financial cost for cussing?  You are picking financial because that is what you fight about, and it is an effective lever.  The true cost of cussing is a loss of respect and a broken relationship.

Because the cussing was related to money.  That is precisely why.  And it is the point of this thread and what my wife "got".

Her assertion to me... ."If they are willing to pitch a fit to get something, my job is to make sure "pitching a fit doesn't work""

Which I agreed with... .I think she connected some dots that I have been making sure whatever she is willing to "pitch a fit" over... .doesn't happen.

Conversely, whatever she is willing to discuss and not pitch a fit over is "on the table" and almost always is approved.

Those are good dots to connect.

Moving along.  Why on earth waste money that is " a dollar short" of what I can't afford to loose.  That would have me constantly calculating "what I can afford to loose". 

For me it has become a principle, not a dollar amount.

If she cussed me for a penny... .or cussed me for  millions of dollars, I wouldn't hand her a penny.

Not because I "can afford to loose a penny"... of course I can.  Why would I want to in anyway validate that you cuss me and you get what you want?

I simply can't imagine how that helps in any way shape or form.

Seriously... .those on this thread pushing me for this.

Going forward... .I expect this principle to apply to money, cooking, sex...   Separate the cussing from the issue.

Give them what they want "if you can afford it"... and deal with the cussing later.

So... .cuss cuss cuss... .give me my food now.  Smile... hand over some food.  Deal with cussing later.

So... .cuss cuss cuss... .take of your clothes and bang me good.  Smile... .take care of your spouse.  Deal with cussing later.

Same for money... .

Same for (fill in the blank)

For consistency sake... .I apply my reasoning to all... not just money.

I would challenge all of you guys if you are really ready to apply this across the board.  If not... .why not?

Clarity:  I'm not angry, I simply can't see how I can or should be inconsistent.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I think it's likely that everyone posting on this thread is in agreement that you keep the bulk of your money secure and that she has behaved in an untrustworthy manner regarding giving money to her family without your assent.

The point that I believe many are making is that when it comes to family expenses such as gas and groceries, having to ask permission every time for these expenditures is causing her to resent you more and also creates opportunities for arguments and dysregulations.

With 8 kids, $40K as a teacher's salary undoubtedly doesn't go very far. And if she wants to buy the kids something special from time to time, such as a prom dress or tool kit or whatever--I would imagine she gets underwater financially at times and therefore has to ask you for assistance.

If "wallet opening" only occurs with perfect behavior on her part, yes, you're reinforcing an "act" but what about the underlying feelings that she might have? I could imagine it would make her feel demeaned that she had to kiss up to get money for groceries and gas. And I think that is what others are pointing out.

You may be observing "good behavior" on her part because she wants something from you, but underneath, she may be stockpiling resentments.

I don't think anyone is asking you to fund whatever crazy scheme she might come up with, but if there were a way to have some flexibility regarding family expenses where she didn't have to ask "Dad" for an "advance on her allowance" then this might foster a better relationship and you might see the return of the "nice wife" that you lament.