Lost Childhoods: The Plight Of The Parentified Child - Gregory J. Jurkovic PhD

[Wicker Man]

Lost Childhoods: The Plight Of The Parentified Child Author: Gregory J. Jurkovic PhD Publisher: Routledge; 1 edition (April 1, 1997) Paperback: 272 pages ISBN-10: 0876308256 ISBN-13: 978-0876308257

From the reviews and synopsis this book seemed closer to my situation than Dr. Gibson's book.

The learning adventure continues... . ugh... .or I mean... .yay!... .nope... .I will stick with ugh.

[Skip]

Look forward to hearing your thoughts on the book.

About the author... .Gregory J. Jurkovic, Ph.D., President, Department of Psychology - Georgia State University in Atlanta, Georgia. He also has a part-time private practice.

[Harri]

yeah, Ugh is right... .but there is an excitement in there for me too.  I read an article that put it well for me:  when we choose to work on our past and overcome the abuse, it is empowering and allows up to have purpose rather than just being passive participants.  (Okay, total paraphrase but that was the gist of it)

I too am looking forward to hearing your thoughts on this Wickerman.

EDIT:  I checked and the book is out of print but used copies are available ranging from $9.00 to $45.00

[Wicker Man]

When we choose to work on our past and overcome the abuse... .

Harri -I have spent too much of my time in therapy these last 9 months doing triage  --essentially using the time to talk about other people.  It is time to clear the deck and get to work on me.

I was fortunate --I cannot call any of my childhood abusive. However, being used as an inappropriate confidant by a codependent mother from a very young age is something I need to work through. 

My experiences in childhood made me sensitive and responsible, but there is no free lunch.  I am prone to fall into a savior modality with people close to me. Altruism seems to have become my pervasive world view in close interpersonal relationships and it will take working this through to see the world through different eyes.

I checked and the book is out of print but used copies are available ranging from $9.00 to $45.00

I bought a used copy delivered for $17.  It seems to be available on Kindle for $42.  I will get to reading as soon as it arrives and write a review.

Skip -Thank you for the thread split and giving the pedigree of the author. 


Wicker Man

[Harri]

Hi Wickerman  

Focusing on yourself is so important but so difficult.  And ti represents a significant shift for you! 

I cannot call any of my childhood abusive. However, being used as an inappropriate confidant by a codependent mother from a very young age is something I need to work through.

 Yes.  A lot of us can relate to that here on this board.  

I have yet to be able to nail down a difference between parentification and emotional or covert incest (also called enmeshemnt).  My general sense is that parentification falls under the umbrella of emotional/covert incest but I haven't got anything stronger than that.  Regardless of what you call it or whether you classify it as abuse, it definitely has an impact on kids which is carried into adulthood.

I will be interested in hearing what you have to say about this book.

In the meantime, we do have a thread (which should not be a surprise!) on the topic:    Emotional or covert incest: discussing it and healing from it

I am excited as you work on this part of you... .I've wondered about your user name... .what made you pick it?

[JNChell]

Hi, Wicker Man. I always read your posts on the other boards. I’m glad that you’ll be joining in here as well.

It is time to clear the deck and get to work on me.

Good for you.

being used as an inappropriate confidant by a codependent mother from a very young age is something I need to work through

I am prone to fall into a savior modality with people close to me. Altruism seems to have become my pervasive world view in close interpersonal relationships and it will take working this through to see the world through different eyes.

You’ll find a lot of similarities to your situation as you spend more time on this board.

I showed up here on Detaching like you. I was in tatters. After enough reading, research, finally posting here and therapy, I looked inward. My struggles started as a very young boy.

We’re glad that you’re joining us, Wicker Man.

[Wicker Man]

... .And it represents a significant shift for you! 

I experienced BPD through the lens of an affair. It caused incredible turmoil for everyone within my circle of influence.  It took these last 9 months to do the damage control and create enough stasis for me to be able to begin the real work in therapy. 

I have yet to be able to nail down a difference between parentification and emotional or covert incest (also called enmeshemnt).  My general sense is that parentification falls under the umbrella of emotional/covert incest but I haven't got anything stronger than that.  Regardless of what you call it or whether you classify it as abuse, it definitely has an impact on kids which is carried into adulthood.

The terms strike me as synonymous.  I will be interested to see if the book defines them.

I've wondered about your user name... .what made you pick it?

Harri -It was the notion of the mystical, the ancient, sacrifice and self immolation which made me choose the name.  A wicker man is a hollow wooden man filled with sacrifices to the gods used by the ancient Celts. 

It seemed fitting as a parable and a warning to myself.  I had hoped to help my undiagnosed partner, I knew she was in pain.  The benefit for me was seeing the magic of her world.  Being with her was helping me grow as an artist by leaps and bounds. 


风水 FengShui was literal, real and powerful and demanded respect -it was part of life. 

Put in another way... .  Lots of people see faces in rocks and trees.  One day she told me what they were saying... .Trees and rocks, apparently, are not always very nice... .Who knew? ugh... .


Thus the ideas of the mystical and the ancient.  --It was a fascinating world to visit and incredibly seductive.

[Wicker Man]

We’re glad that you’re joining us

JNChell thank you for the welcome note. 

My 'tattered' days are thankfully behind me at this point -I hope... .  I certainly didn't have a plan when I blew my life up and threw myself into a tattered state.  Although I think I can avoid doing this in the future.  I didn't like it

Wicker Man

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Wicker Man, and welcome to our board! Like JNChell, I think you'll find much to explore on our side of it all. You are already well on your journey it seems. 

This is a great topic. Harri posed an interesting thought:

I have yet to be able to nail down a difference between parentification and emotional or covert incest (also called enmeshemnt).  My general sense is that parentification falls under the umbrella of emotional/covert incest   

So many of us on the PSI board have experienced this very unhealthy part of being raised by a parent with BPD. I fall quite thoroughly into this aspect. My take on it is this:

While parentification seems to be the overarching umbrella (and it overlaps to the entirety that one would think so), to me the greater umbrella is the disorder itself, whatever disorder that may be such as BPD or NPD, etc.

As I understand it, parentification is the reversal of roles, wherein the child "parents" the mother or father, stepping into the role that normally would be the opposite. Parenting does include listening to your child share their innermost thoughts if the child chooses to do so, but in a healthy relationship, a parent does not demand or require it in order for the relationship to be safe for the child.

In emotional incest, the adult demands and in a sense grooms them to meet their needs, coaxing out of the child what the parent is seeking to meet his or her own needs. We see power, control, and abuse in this process because a child knows nothing about these higher level things, only that they want to please the parent and make them happy with them. Being accepted and feeling loved and cared for is the reward for a child who otherwise receives no sense of emotional love, only pain and heartache.

Therein is the worst of it, the binding of innocence to dysfunction.

The result is a skewed sense of what is healthy and loving and true. We spend years trying to undue and unlearn the basic foundation of what was imprinted upon us as being normal.

 
Wools

[Harri]

Hi Wickerman.  Thanks for explaining your name.  Your choice makes sense to me though it saddens me still.  That is my stuff though. 

Being with her was helping me grow as an artist by leaps and bounds.

That is the heartbreaking but rewarding part of so many of these relationships.  There is so much good and beauty in them, so much to be gained.  I am glad you are able to still see the beauty within her even though the relationship had to end.  Some lessons and what we learn from others stick no matter how painful the experience.  That is what keeps me searching and reaching forward. 

Wools, excellent input, thank you.  Yes, both fall under a greater umbrella of dysfunction, which may simply be poor parenting, though I think we see these things more with disordered parenting.  Heh... .I am saying I agree with your assessment!  Thanks for stating the differences so clearly.  I think part of my issue in separating the two is that parentification rarely seems to happen in isolation at least from my inexpert eyes.

[Wicker Man]

Hi Wickerman.  Thanks for explaining your name.  Your choice makes sense to me though it saddens me still.  That is my stuff though.

I know you are busy on the boards, but if you have the inclination I am curious to know why my name brings you sadness.

Until this last year I would have considered myself happy and well adjusted (within reason  ).  I made it 50 years feeling like I was emotionally strong and above the fray - 50 years is not a bad run.  Seeing, what I had thought was, 'true love' in my affair, gave an unrealistic benchmark with which to compare life --I need to sort his out.

Having had the emotional wind knocked out of my sails I have reacted by starting therapy to figure out what the rest of my life should look and feel like.  I have taken on the care taker role a few times in my life, and feel I have done so without losing too much of myself.  However, I had skated far out on to thin ice with my undiagnosed BPD ex.

"There is no great genius without some touch of madness." - Aristotle

I was signing up for far more than I had understood (She had been diagnosed schizophrenic / bipolar and that is, in my opinion, workable with a strong and safe home).  Her extended family were incredibly supportive of our relationship, even though I was older than her and foreign -they just wanted her safe (and perhaps to no longer be their problem... .)  She is an absolutely lovely human being, but utterly lacking in any level of emotional control.  

This makes her a dangerous person to love.  I did want to keep her save, and I don't think this is fundamentally wrong (still in therapy... .)  The relationship would have become an unhealthy behavior for me if I had continued in it after I came to believe it was going to destroy me.  

It broke my heart, but I ended it once it felt like a kill or be killed situation.  For the first time in my life 'feelings became fact' and I was forced into a black and white decision -so I guess I did learn something from her  --Unlike her, when she dysregulated, I knew how much this would hurt her and I felt her pain as well as mine in the dissolution of the relationship.  There was no joy or relief, just pain and confusion.

For better or worse I tend to look at interpersonal interaction through the lens of social exchange theory.  I was getting far more out of the relationship than it was 'costing' me -I helped her with her stuff and being with her made me feel great about myself.  When the scales tipped very badly in the other direction E.g. feeling abject terror  the relationship became untenable and needed to end.

I am glad you are able to still see the beauty within her even though the relationship had to end.

I am empathetic to a fault.  I feel so much pity for her!  After spending an inordinate amount of  time learning about BPD I feel even worse for her yet.  

Woolspinner Firstly... .In full disclosure... . My wife and I have refurbished 2 looms and I wove and hand sewed an 60 EPI shirt for a friend of mine.  I think there are 3 wheels in the house -that number, as I am sure you can guess, is in constant flux.

There was no BPD in my household growing up.  My mother had been badly abused as a girl and my father grew up in a Irish alcoholic household.  My father was emotionally distant from my mom, but did his best to be a good father.  My brother was a mess -thief and drug addict.  My parents and I came to believe my brother's birth mother was a heroine addict -which added a huge level of stress to a household.  My brother and I were both adopted as infants.  I believe not having a genetic relationship with any of these people has served me well.

My mother did her best to not make our relationship dysfunctional -but she was lonely and I seem to be wired for empathy.  I really was very fortunate in my upbringing.  There is no free lunch in childhood -but I think the good far and away outweighed the bad.  The 'bad' still warrants investigation on my part.  I did grow up very fast and will too quickly assume extra responsibility in relationships and friendships --I am definitely workaholic.

I have always seen myself as a work in progress.  My mother instilled her fear of heights into me -so I took a job working high in a theater.  I had grown up afraid of pain, so I learned to fight and started power lifting.  Simple phobias are easy.  I have a healthy respect for snakes -but they are bitey -so I will leave that be

Now I find myself feeling the need to explore deeper issues.  The book arrived, so I am going to dive in and start reading.  --Thank you for your post.

Wicker Man

[Learning2Thrive]

Wicker Man,

I have been following your thread here on PSI. I can identify with much of what you have shared. I came here after an affair with a BPD woman blew apart my world. I was prepared to divorce my husband but he begged me to reconsider.

I lived in an apartment by myself for a year; though during that time I returned to our home several days a week to care for my husband and our two sons that were still at home  (prepare meals, spend time with them) and work on my/our business that is our primary source of income.  I entered therapy, started reading here and began the hard work on myself to figure out how the next 50 years of my life should go. I’ve learned so much, but I still have a long way to go.

All this to say, you’re not alone and though your name implies a hollow man, I perceive a man of great substance and depth as you continue your work toward healing, health and happiness.

I look forward to hearing your review of the book.

  L2T

[Wicker Man]

... .my husband but he begged me to reconsider... ... ..I lived in an apartment by myself for a year

You and I walked a similar path. I had been out of country working for nearly 2 year straight -it was in this string of work I had met my affair partner -- I filed for divorce.

I ended up with an apartment in my home city (which I would have needed for work) and one in Beijing with my affair partner.  When my affair ended I living in the apartment here for a few months (obviously never returning to the apartment in Beijing).  Several months into couple's therapy I moved back to our home.  Like you, I was commuting back and forth to maintain our home and help my wife. 

Ironically, one weekend I was setting new fence posts and my wife thanked me for the help -I said 'I like helping you, although I learned I hate jackhammers'. 

We have always worked perfectly well on projects together (apparently... .our molding work is some of the finest in our area according to a painter we hired) -However we have always gotten poor marks on intimacy.  She suffers from OC(PD).  If you need someone to build something with there is no one better... .You want a hug?  That is a different matter.

What I would not give to have realized the repression from the lack of intimacy and to have had the presence of mind to start therapy before embarking on an affair.  --We are doing 'ok' in therapy and I have fully disclosed the affair and my engagement to my affair partner --a grizzly business.   

... .your name implies a hollow man, I perceive a man of great substance and depth as you continue your work toward healing, health and happiness.

Actually... .Wicker Men were stuffed full of people to be sacrificed (either criminals or slaves)  --but I was not trying to imply M(PD) multiple personality disorder either  

The idea of Wicker Man came more from my near brush with immolation and less from the hollowness --I had nearly moved to China with the plan of starting a family with a very badly dysfunctional person.  Now the insanity of it seems hard to grasp, but in the moment I had never been happier.

I have lost a sense of innocence in the experience, but with work I now seek balance in my life. 

Life is a contact sport and sometimes we get hit hard and knocked down. It is what we do in these moments which define us.

The book review will be by the end of the week.  So far it is interesting and informative, but it is written as a text for professionals.  Very heavy lifting.

Wicker Man

[Learning2Thrive]

Wicker Man wrote:

Actually... .Wicker Men were stuffed full of people to be sacrificed (either criminals or slaves)  --but I was not trying to imply M(PD) multiple personality disorder either

Lol... .no, I didn’t think you were implying multiple personalities.

I guess my thought was that the Wicker Man himself in and of himself is hollow (being filled with others) to be sacrificed. I perceive you as a man full of substance in and of yourself, a man worthy of love, kindness and compassion. You are willing to own your part and do the work, not simply accumulate others for whom you sacrifice yourself. But... .that’s just my observation from where I stand.

L2T

[Harri]

Hi there Wickerman.

I am curious to know why my name brings you sadness.

I am a giver by nature (also nurture).  But the self-sacrifice I think of here is more along the lines of abuse of self, giving until I no longer am in touch with me, who I am, my own needs.  Near annihilation of self because others are more important and I am different.  I do feel good when I give and I am filled when I do so, but I have, in the past, been willing to sacrifice myself for people who would just keep taking and I accepted that as being my die (basically nothing).  I thought it was the only way I could connect.  I had this deep seated belief that I had to give, that was my purpose in life. 

So like I said, my sadness is my stuff.  Like you, perhaps like all of us, I seek balance. 

I think wanting to keep a loved one safe is good and healthy.  Perhaps it is how we define safety and how we implement it that is the issue.  Does it look more like parenting, control, direction rather than guidance and support?  (yeah, I'm still in therapy too so take that with a grain of salt).

It mucks up the mind when in situations where feelings equal facts.  Maybe more so when you do not have a good foundation or sense of reality to begin with.  I am talking about myself here.    I only found out about a year and a half ago that my mom likely also had undiagnosed schizophrenia, so i am now even more interested in your story than I already was!    Unfortunately for me, I was pulled into her world of delusions, emotions, strange thoughts, fears, etc.  Sorting out what was/is reality can be a challenge at times.  As a child and even into my 30's, I bought her delusions and made them part of my reality.  Again, the issue of self-sacrifice is rising here, mixed with such sorrow for the both of us and the rest of my small family.

So tell me, if you don't mind, were you able to keep separate from her emotions and fears and whatever aspect of her disorders were projected towards you?  Was it a struggle or were you able to tell that her reality was off compared to yours?  I do not mean her reality was not real for her... .I know my mother's reality was in fact her reality.  It never should have been mine and if only a few things had been different, I might have come out less scarred.

Okay, I am just rambling now.  BTW, I always have time for conversations on the board... .it is what I do and what I love.

For better or worse I tend to look at interpersonal interaction through the lens of social exchange theory.  I was getting far more out of the relationship than it was 'costing' me -I helped her with her stuff and being with her made me feel great about myself.  When the scales tipped very badly in the other direction E.g. feeling abject terror  the relationship became untenable and needed to end.

Your view sounds about right to me and is something I strive for though I did not have a name to attach to it (thank you!).  What caused you to feel terror?  Something in her?  You?  Both?

I have always seen myself as a work in progress.  My mother instilled her fear of heights into me -so I took a job working high in a theater.  I had grown up afraid of pain, so I learned to fight and started power lifting.  Simple phobias are easy.  I have a healthy respect for snakes -but they are bitey -so I will leave that be

I can sense this attitude when I read you and it is wonderful.  BTW, snakes are horrible creatures... .

[Wicker Man]

a man full of substance in and of yourself, a man worthy of love, kindness and compassion. You are willing to own your part and do the work

Thank you for your kind words. Being so close to my mother gave me a strong sense of empathy and compassion  "As a result of enacting a parental role, youngsters may learn invaluable lessons in responsibility and giving, which can contribute to healthy identity formation and self-esteem.  They can also gain trustworthiness and satisfy their need to express caring and affection." --Lost Childhoods: The Plight Of The Parentified Child

My mother taught me valuable lessons and being her most trusted confidant made me strong and compassionate.  I think having a different genetic background helped me come through enmeshment easier than most.  Seeing the hardware differences between my parents, brother and myself was fascinating and made for interesting familial dynamics.

Now I have to keep the good and now sort out the rest.  At this point in my journey I believe I over compensated for my father's emotional absence.  Empathetic to a fault, but as far as dysfunctional traits go I could be in worse shape. 

I have instilled in me an understanding in the value of therapy and learning --yay mom.  This gives me an openness and willingness to change.

Wicker Man

[Wicker Man]

I think wanting to keep a loved one safe is good and healthy.  Perhaps it is how we define safety and how we implement it that is the issue.  Does it look more like parenting, control, direction rather than guidance and support?... .

Some level of codependency is necessary in a healthy relationship.  It is when we tip over into dependency or lose ourselves it becomes an issue. 

It mucks up the mind when in situations where feelings equal facts.

This was a notion I had not understood until I began learning about B(PD), but it certainly explained a lot of Dream Come True's behavior (the translation of my affair partner's name).

I only found out about a year and a half ago that my mom likely also had undiagnosed schizophrenia, so i am now even more interested in your story than I already was!

Dream Come True suffered from auditory and rarely visual hallucinations.  However she exhibited none of the other traits of schizophrenia.  Mental health is fairly medieval in China.  She was also diagnosed Bipolar.  I only saw mania once and it was light and brief.  In my opinion, if one is not particularly good at one's job as a psychologist and you see a little girl with rage who hears voices it is an understandable misdiagnosis. 

Since she had attempted suicide, cut herself, suffered dysphoria, dysregulated in to rage (and afterward could sometimes not remember the conversations), had risky sexual behaviors, a terrible track record with relationships (familial and romantic), had in the past issues with alcohol, and had a very fluid self image --I feel B(PD) is more likely her issue.  In my opinion without therapeutic intervention (aka in China) there is little hope of a successful relationship involving B(PD).

Separating this sort of thing out is much easier as an adult in a romantic relationship that trying to cope and understand as a child.  It must have been very difficult and confusing for you growing up.

So tell me, if you don't mind, were you able to keep separate from her emotions and fears and whatever aspect of her disorders were projected towards you?

To my peril

When someone is angry or even raging they are actually afraid.  When 'fighting' I get cool instead of hot and pull in actively listen and observe -never fight fire with fire.  I love communicating and think fighting is the lowest form of it -so I would rather get back to talking once the yelling is through.  It doesn't mean I don't care -it just means I believe there are a more constructive ways to express emotions.

When she was in a state of diffuse physiological arousal (Fight, flight, freeze) I would listen for her message, never fire back.  Let the rage flow over and around me and wait for her to return to me.

At one point she said 'I am incredibly angry' I said the Chinese equivalent to 'ok'.  Her mouth dropped open and she shouted 'What!'.  I said 'It is ok you are angry.  I love you when you are happy, sad, or angry -they are all you'.  She sat down and said 'Damn it I am not angry anymore'.  I said 'Don't worry... .just wait you will be angry again before you know it!'  I asked 'What would have happened if I said don't be angry?'  She said 'That would have been bad'... .

She called me her 'Monster' because she had never met anyone quite like me.  I liked the nickname.  I called her 'small devil' -which is usually reserved for misbehaving children in China -I told her if the shoe fits... . 

I forgave too much.  I projected my world view on to her and presumed I could love the dysfunction out of her.  I too much wanted fairytale love to be real.

When the dust settled in our relationship I had not lost a sense of self, but we were only together 18 months.  In such a short exposure I had the endurance to avoid enmeshment on a catastrophic level.  Most all of the time we spent in each other's presence was quite lovely -she usually only dysregulated when I was away.  This would have likely changed.  I believe I had a calming effect on her, but likely she would have become 'tolerant' of this and it would have lost its efficacy.  There were cracks forming in our last weeks together which only became evident once i was removed from the situation.

 Was it a struggle or were you able to tell that her reality was off compared to yours?

Well... .As an example... .When the rocks on the side of the road gave her a mission she told me 'I could not understand' ---I was pretty firm in my understanding where her hallucination ended and my world began... .  I told her 'I may not be able to understand your mission, but tell me the parts I can understand and we can work together'.  I did my best to sooth her and move her away from delusion and back to more firm ground -get her talking about us and less about her mission, but to let her know I had her back.

I do not mean her reality was not real for her... .

Astute point.  Yes -this was all completely real for her.  I loved her, so I was not afraid in those moments and I knew they would pass.  Sadly, during this particular time of crushing stress I am now fairly certain she had her previous boyfriend over to 'comfort' her -the two dozen roses were still there when I arrived in Beijing later that week.  -

This is hindsight speculation on my part and an artifact of my ruminating.  Rumination when on for about 6 months trying to sort out the cognitive dissonance the experience created.

I had helped her create mechanisms to cope with depression which didn't involve cutting herself.  It was shortly after this time she experienced her first cutting episode in nearly a year -I believe the resulting shame of having cheated on us.

What caused you to feel terror?

I felt terror and had a minor epiphany when at the end of a 7 day rage she broke up with me (Christmas day --she was so filled with rage she didn't know).  I was back in the states doing the final preparation to move to China permanently, under crushing stress --selling homes, finalizing my divorce, arranging insurance, trying to secure work here and abroad, visa issues and just a touch of international law.  It was all too much and it caused me to 'snap out of it'.

Technically speaking it was our 3rd breakup.  The first time I marked it up to youth and bad habits -she was mad broke up and hung up the phone.   I told her 'This only happens one more time.  Breaking up is not a negotiation tool --it should be brief, painful and permanent'.  The second time was a 10 day ghosting (there was an actor 'freind' on her movie involved in the mix) just after I had announced my divorce to my wife --I was so shocked I forgot my own rule.  The maelstrom of emotional dismay caused me to fall into an anxious attachment modality -never good. 

In retrospect,, I believe, the reality of our relationship coming to fruition had caused her to dysregulate and bolt.  'Maybe is worse than no' so run.

... .snakes are horrible creatures... .

I am actually a snake in the Chinese zodiac.  I am always happy to see them from a distance when mountain biking -but I have no need to be their friends... .

Wicker Man

[Learning2Thrive]

I forgave too much.  I projected my world view on to her and presumed I could love the dysfunction out of her.  I too much wanted fairytale love to be real.

Me too. Magical thinking. Then poof. It was gone.

Reality is hard work. But there are some real, happy days now.

Glad to read you ride a mountain bike. I have a bike hobby obsession. How is the book coming?

L2T

[Wicker Man]

... .Magical thinking... ... ..How is the book coming?

Yesterday I heard from a mutual friend my undiagnosed ex is 'still waiting for me' --we have not had any contact in 10 months. 

This obsessive devotion ('magical thinking' as you put it) is, in my opinion, the same mechanism which would have been our undoing had our relationship continued. 

I considered starting a thread on the  learning board -but I am fairly certain I understand the phenomenon.  --What a truly horrible disorder; I feel so badly for her.

On a brighter note I should have the book finished by the end of the weekend. The language is quite technical, but I believe there is value in it.  In order to retain the information I find I have to read and re-read the sections. 

Dr. Jurkovic does a wonderful job in Lost Childhoods defining parentification and spends time exploring various degrees of it as well as the benefits and liabilities of parentification.  I.e. A child learning responsibility vs de-socialization and or isolation.

Hopefully I can write a review on Monday.


Wicker Man