How to convey divorce and depart from BPD wife?

[Toad17]

I have decided to leave my 10 year relationship with my BPD wife. After going through an emotional roller coaster ride for several years, I learnt about her BPD and over last two years, I have been taking help to recover. My wife is unwilling to see that she has a problem and not willing to take any help. We have a 4 year old daughter. With a heavy heart, I have decided to leave one person I love (or used to love) to protect another person I love a lot more (my daughter). I'm not ready to fill her childhood with bad memories of dysfunctional relationship, and I also want to protect myself.

I'm looking for any recommendation on how to convey divorce, so that I can minimize the aftermath hell as much as possible?

1. Should I do it as "one event" and use the DEARMAN rule to maintain further communication?

2. Should I phase out where I move out physically and then announce Divorce later?

3. Should I express my reasons of unhappiness through couple counseling and then follow step 1?

Whenever I tell my wife that I'm unhappy and when I bring up the topic of separation, she uses "projection" to accuse me that it's all my fault. The blame never ends and nobody wins. I recently learnt that the way you breakup is important because it can alter the course of divorce (mitigation vs litigation). Is that true?
Really appreciate any help from your personal experience. Thank you so much!

[livednlearned]

With a heavy heart, I have decided to leave one person I love (or used to love) to protect another person I love a lot more (my daughter).

That's one of the best ways I've ever read anyone phrase this. I couldn't have said it better 

Can you tell us a little more about the behaviors that you are most concerned with? Not all people with BPD are dangerous, but if your wife had a history of substance abusive, suicidal ideation, self-harm, or violence, that would make her dangerous, and influence some of the details in your exit plan.

Do you have an attorney retained?

My personal experience is that these elements make for a softer landing (altho still quite bumpy... .):

*having fairly thorough legal information about how things work where you live re: custody, etc.
*having related documentation in case legal stuff escalates
*being familiar with some of the communication skills for BPD relationships
*being familiar with parental alienation (similar to above, having specific communication & relationship skills)
*having a therapist to consult with, to prevent self sabotaging during critical decision-making moments
*being part of a support group, like us 

My ex was a former trial attorney so I knew I had to be 6 steps ahead if I had any chance of protecting myself and our then 9-year-old son.

A big part of divorce is being able to regulate your emotions, especially anxiety and fear, so that you can make grounded decisions even when your hair is on fire.

It sounds like you are already familiar with some of the skills (DEARMAN). Have you applied them to your relationship, and if so, how did they work?

[ForeverDad]

It is not a one-size-fits-all scenario.  Collectively we have all had different experiences with the details varying.  Do some or all of the below behaviors apply?

• If your spouse has threatened or even contemplated making allegations to block your parenting, that you're a DV or child abuser, then it will happen, given enough time.
• If your spouse is an entitled controller used to giving ultimatums and demands then mediation, favored by courts to start a case or follow right after the temp order, will fail.  If you find agreement there, then ask yourself, Am I Gifting Away too much?  Settlements more often come later in a case, such as just before a major hearing or trial.
• Does your spouse feel entitled as Mother, or Mother of the Year (MOTY)?  Typically people with BPD (pwBPD) view everything to extremes, they either hate or love with almost no in between, either you're wonderful or you're evil personified, they love you one moment then get triggered and hate you the next.  You need time-tested strategies to deal with these inconsistent and unpredictable behaviors... .we in peer support have been there, done that, so pick our brains.
• If your spouse has threatened suicide, be aware there two likely categories... .either the person is seriously suicidal or it is to guilt/manipulate you to appease and acquiesce.  Professionals do not view us spouses in the midst of the relationship as qualified to assess that, so a suicidal threat probably requires a call to the emergency responders.  Of course, then comes the problem of how to deal with the situation where a suddenly recovered spouse then accuses you of lying or even being the one who is suicidal.  Do you have proof of the suicidal talk?

In general, you face a task where the one who was your closest friend very likely will now become, if not already, your fiercest and most determined adversary ever.  To illustrate, would you walk into a lion's cage without protection?  Maybe it was fed recently, maybe not.  Maybe it has a reputation of being docile, maybe not.  So you make sure you're as prepared as you can be.  On the other hand, you daughter is 4 years old (my son was 3 years old when I separated) and waiting overlong generally doesn't improve things.

The points highlighted by LnL are excellent.  Determine your legal options.  Get consultations with several lawyers and choose one who has proactive approaches and the more practical strategies.  We here need far more than the typical form filer and hand holder that only anticipate settlements.  Is the lawyer capable at hearings and trial, a real possibility?  My first lawyer was a former ADA who was new to Family Law, my case was in a neighboring county and she knew a better lawyer for me, one she had faced but was far more experienced than her.  So she stepped back and let a tougher lawyer handle my divorce.  My case needed that.  Even he was surprised.  He had estimated 7-9 months, from filing to final decree it was nearly two years.  Not all cases go that long, the general range is 1 to 2 years for a divorce.

If you can manage family counseling, then yes you can try it.  Be aware that many will have you sign forms stating they won't testify in court.  So if the counseling fails, a real possibility, you may not get any records to wave around in court.  (However, I believe it is possible that if you get a Custody Evaluation ordered, that evaluator can usually consult with prior counselors and therapists while assessing the family dynamics and the needs of the child.  Just make sure you have the best CE or one of the best.  An excellent CE can make an evaluation while a lousy one can break it.)

Have you read our most essential handbook, Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by William Eddy & Randi Kreger?  It's a must read.  Since you're not separated, perhaps have a relative or very trusted friend order it for you so it doesn't appear among your bills or records.  Same as you would do while consulting lawyers, keep it on the down low.  This is not something you read with your spouse, it would be hugely triggering.

[Toad17]

That's one of the best ways I've ever read anyone phrase this. I couldn't have said it better 

Can you tell us a little more about the behaviors that you are most concerned with? Not all people with BPD are dangerous, but if your wife had a history of substance abusive, suicidal ideation, self-harm, or violence, that would make her dangerous, and influence some of the details in your exit plan.

Do you have an attorney retained?

Have you applied them to your relationship, and if so, how did they work?

Thanks so much for your response. I'm glad you liked my quote, thx!

My biggest concern is that my wife will pull my daughter into her emotional roller coaster ride, when she is in charge of her during separation. My daughter is attached to her and I don't want to take full custody, it'll be devastating to my daughter. So I'm trying to see how best to separate out and ensure the blowout is minimal, and get away with equal custody. I know it's impossible to predict and control. We also have a very large equity in our current home.

- I'm interviewing attorneys and shortlisted few good ones. It's hard to find someone who starts with mediation and also represents you if it turns into high conflict

- I have taken DBT classes and have a therapist

- Wife has made couple of suicidal threats in past. There is no substance abuse or violence (yet).

Any good reading materials on parental alienation and keeping low contact during parallel parenting?

I really want to thank folks who are helping others in this forum. You guys are saving lives. Thank you so much!

[Toad17]

If you can manage family counseling, then yes you can try it.  Be aware that many will have you sign forms stating they won't testify in court.  So if the counseling fails, a real possibility, you may not get any records to wave around in court.  (However, I believe it is possible that if you get a Custody Evaluation ordered, that evaluator can usually consult with prior counselors and therapists while assessing the family dynamics and the needs of the child.  Just make sure you have the best CE or one of the best.  An excellent CE can make an evaluation while a lousy one can break it.)

Have you read our most essential handbook, Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by William Eddy & Randi Kreger?  It's a must read.  Since you're not separated, perhaps have a relative or very trusted friend order it for you so it doesn't appear among your bills or records.  Same as you would do while consulting lawyers, keep it on the down low.  This is not something you read with your spouse, it would be hugely triggering.

Thank you so much for great advice. Yes, I'm reading "Splitting" book in my Kindle. I'm halfway through it. The book has successfully scared me. I guess that's very important before entering Lion's den (great example btw). The book is awesome.

I have used DEARMAN strategies. It's a hit or miss. When it doesn't work (probably when I don't use it right), there is generally lot of accusation and blaim. My wife pretty much thinks that it's all me who is unhappy and depressed, and I need lot of help to make the marriage work. My heart is cold and she is perfect. She is right - BPDs do not just break heart. They put your heart in a lousy blender which turns in random direction. To save your heart, you have to freeze it and make it ice cold. There is just enough juice where it can beat for yourself and for your kids. So fighting Divorce battle with this cold heart is very hard. I'm glad there is a support group and network of people to help others.

[david]

My xBPDw was the blaming kind and it was always me with the problem. She insisted we go to marriage counseling. After two visits the T made us come separately. A few more visits and I realized my ex was seeing this T for quite some time and this was not marriage counseling.

I put half down on our house when it was purchased so we had a decent amount of equity. Ex filed for divorce and then dragged it out for a little over three years. By then I had stopped all communication except through email and I learned to disclose nothing but facts pertaining to custody times. I followed the order exactly.

The three years gave me the time I needed to a) get my head on straight  b) have ex do so many things that were easy to disprove that equitable distribution was simple c) get evidence that my attorney could use

The less information I gave my ex the more she created things. Then she would build on them, since I wasn't disputing it to her in emails, that eventually they became a story unto themselves with no basis in reality. Ex started with claiming I removed the contents of the house. I did no such thing. BY the time we went to equitable distribution she had a four page handwritten list of things I stole and valued it at 1.2 million dollars. We had no more than 20 or 30 thousand on her list in real values. I had enough evidence to show that she actually had the possessions. Instead of disputing her valuation I simply agreed and asked for my half in cash. The house was sold a year before and the equity was sitting in an escrow account. We settled on a 70/30 split in my favor after her attorney saw a small sample of the evidence. Her attorney wanted nothing to do with going to court after that.

I noticed that when our boys were younger they had a better relationship with their mom. Her behavior changed that. I had no influence on that except for the fact that I was consistent with them and they never knew what their mom would say or do.

[worriedStepmom]

I noticed that when our boys were younger they had a better relationship with their mom. Her behavior changed that. I had no influence on that except for the fact that I was consistent with them and they never knew what their mom would say or do.

This has also been the case with SD11.

Toad17, my H left his uBPDxw when their daughter was 2, for the same reasons you give.  He insisted on a 50-50 split.  His xW is intimidated by the courts, so she agreed to what he asked for.   He focused on parallel parenting and giving SD a safe space at his home where she has unconditional love and lots of validation.  For the most part, mom still has my H split white, and believes he's being controlled by other people (his mom, me, SD's therapist), so she's never done more than a half-hearted attempted at parental alienation, and it never stuck.  H got primary custody this year, when mom's dysregulations were causing SD significant stress.

Does your therapist have any recommendations for you on how to handle the break-up?  Is your wife afraid of authority?  Is she likely to try to alienate your child?

Divorce can be an emotionally awful mess even if neither party has a personality disorder.  Take care of yourself and give your daughter lots and lots of reassurance that you still love her and you are still her family.

[kells76]

Hi Toad17, sorry for what brings you here, but glad you found the site.

Let me know if I'm jumping too far ahead here, but something you mentioned caught my eye:

My biggest concern is that my wife will pull my daughter into her emotional roller coaster ride, when she is in charge of her during separation. My daughter is attached to her and I don't want to take full custody, it'll be devastating to my daughter. So I'm trying to see how best to separate out and ensure the blowout is minimal, and get away with equal custody.

You're right to be concerned about the relationship your W and D may have after the divorce. My DH's xW pulled their oldest D up to an adult level (confidante, source of strength, etc) for many years after the divorce (D was 5 at the time of the divorce), and when you sow that kind of dysfunction, you reap a very anxious preteen down the road.

So, yes, it is good that you are thinking about the impact your W will have on your D.

I want to challenge the assumption that "taking full custody" would devastate your D. OK, what is custody? Well, it depends on your state. In our state, there's no difference between legal and physical custody. What does that mean? It means that (because Mom has custody) Mom's address is the kids' legal address (i.e. for school purposes), and that Mom has final say about education/medical/activity decisions. Does that mean that Mom cannot get input from DH, that she can control the parenting schedule unilaterally, etc? No, it doesn't (well, she tried, because she is disordered, but that's another story). Parenting time is not the same as physical or legal custody.

So, ponder this: imagine YOU end up with full custody. Maybe you're in our state. Does that mean that D stays with you 100% of the time and never sees Mom? Does that mean that you are REQUIRED to NEVER let D be with Mom more than the PT schedule says? Nope!

I guess what I'm trying to highlight is this: When we work with normal people, we try to be fair. We imagine how we'd want things to go for us, and we try to do that with other people. Most of the time in life that works. When dealing with someone who has disordered thinking and emotional reasoning, that fairness (i.e. "let's try to have 50/50") might not be best.

Imagine if Mom got full custody. You have concerns about her pulling D on to her emotional rollercoaster. Would Mom be fair to you? Would she let D spend more time with you if it's best for D?

Now imagine if you got full custody. Your thinking isn't disordered. You are able to put D's wellbeing ahead of your own feelings. Would you be able to have managed emotions and flexible thinking, and let D spend more time with Mom if it's best for D?

I really want to encourage you at this time, before big decisions get made. You're doing a great job thinking about what's best for your D and not wanting to "punish" Mom by "taking D away" from her. I want to challenge you to consider whether a "fair" idea of "50/50" would be best for your D, if you and Mom don't have an even split of functionality. Does that make sense?

Let me know if this wasn't helpful, or too much right now. One of the reasons your story caught my eye is that that's where my DH was with his xW at the time of the divorce. He thought that he could still coparent amicably with Mom, and that her having full custody (he felt guilty) was "just paperwork" and that she would be fair and follow through with him seeing the kids a lot. She didn't and it was really rough.

Hang in there and keep posting!

kells76

[livednlearned]

I'm interviewing attorneys and shortlisted few good ones. It's hard to find someone who starts with mediation and also represents you if it turns into high conflict

This might be a useful article to help as you narrow down your choices.

I have taken DBT classes and have a therapist

That will go a long way in supporting your daughter. DBT skills can be particularly helpful in supporting a child with a BPD parent.

Wife has made couple of suicidal threats in past. There is no substance abuse or violence (yet).

In Loving Someone with BPD, there is a helpful chapter on how to handle suicidal ideation. You may want to take a look and come up with a safety plan in case your ex expresses SI during the divorce process. The paraphrased version, if I remember correctly, is to let her know in advance how you will handle SI. "My primary goal is to make sure you stay safe, and I am not skilled to do that. I will call 911 if I'm worried about your safety, and they will activate their protocol. It may involve having an ambulance come to the house, in which case our deductible and co-pay for that will be xxxx.xx and xxx.xx. We may not always see eye-to-eye, but I don't want to see you hurt yourself, and professionals will know how to keep you safe." Something like that. We also have some ]safety/crisis plan materials on the site that might be useful.

Any good reading materials on parental alienation and keeping low contact during parallel parenting?

*Bill Eddy's "Don't Alienate the Kids: Raising Emotionally Resilient Kids When One Parent has a PD is excellent.
*Power of Validation (for Parents), which may be second nature for you with the DBT skills in your back pocket.
*Dr. Craig Childress's ju-jitsu parenting article
*Richard Warshak's Divorce Poison

It has amazed me how emotional validation can neutralize quite a bit of the alienation, although I was the primary caregiver and my ex was not emotionally enmeshed with our son. Unfortunately, BPD parents have such a hard time with reality testing, which trickles down to the child in a way that can be devastating.

Normal parenting does not work and specific communication and relationship skills are needed to help support your daughter without fanning the many psychological games we seem to play and lose. Not going to the  fun park is the best way to deal with alienation, imo. But it does take a lot of work and skill to navigate that challenge.

[Toad17]

This might be a useful article to help as you narrow down your choices.

 We also have some Dr. Craig Childress's ju-jitsu parenting article
*Richard Warshak's Divorce Poison

Thank you so much for all the links and advice. The link to Safety plan is not working. Appreciate if you have it handy and re-post it. Thank you!

[Toad17]

Does your therapist have any recommendations for you on how to handle the break-up?  Is your wife afraid of authority?  Is she likely to try to alienate your child?

Thanks for the help! Therapist's recommendation is to validate, empathize but state the fact and probably keep repeating like a tape recorder. Use DEARMAN principle. Wife is not afraid of authorities. During one of my conversation, I asked her if she really thinks through when she says "get away from me and leave me if you are unhappy", does she really think of the kid when she says that? What's going to happen if I leave? She paused and said "We both are equally responsible for our kid" but she never meant what she said (about asking me to leave). "Equal responsibility" word was music to my ears. But you'll never know if she attempts to alienate. When fights happen, and if I couldn't cater to her high expectations, she has bad mouthed about me to my D and said "Dad is not going to come to us, etc.".

[Toad17]

I want to challenge the assumption that "taking full custody" would devastate your D. OK, what is custody?

So, ponder this: imagine YOU end up with full custody. Maybe you're in our state. Does that mean that D stays with you 100% of the time and never sees Mom? Does that mean that you are REQUIRED to NEVER let D be with Mom more than the PT schedule says? Nope!

Imagine if Mom got full custody. You have concerns about her pulling D on to her emotional rollercoaster. Would Mom be fair to you? Would she let D spend more time with you if it's best for D?

Now imagine if you got full custody. Your thinking isn't disordered. You are able to put D's wellbeing ahead of your own feelings. Would you be able to have managed emotions and flexible thinking, and let D spend more time with Mom if it's best for D?

Thanks for all the pointers. I did ponder over the thought of full physical custody. Other than the legal fight, there is an emotional aspect of my D. Childhood "traumas" have lasting impact and no matter how much validation I do after the trauma, my D will be devastated if she is fully cut off from BPDw. She is very attached to BPDw. In the process of leaving a BPD, I don't want to contribute another BPD to humanity. Childhood traumas can potentially create BPD in later stages. But it is true that 50/50 is very hard to achieve. If I manage to get equal custody, and when my D is grown enough to understand her mom's dysfunctional emotions, she might be able to make a better choice and I can fight alongside her for full custody. For now, I'll fight with all my life for equal custody.

[ForeverDad]

My daughter is attached to her and I don't want to take full custody, it'll be devastating to my daughter. So I'm trying to see how best to separate out and ensure the blowout is minimal, and get away with equal custody. I know it's impossible to predict and control.

kells76 explained my thoughts so well!  But I'll chime in too... .

It is exceedingly difficult for a parent to get full custody, so your worry about seeking too much is probably being too-cautious.  Well, unless the other parent Gifts it away.  I filed for custody when I filed for divorce.  Of course, my ex predictably counter-filed the same and made allegations against me as well.  Court ignored it all and awarded the the astoundingly generous standard alternate weekend dad schedule.  Whoopee.  The separation and divorce took two excruciatingly long years.  My lawyer was pleased that the final decree moved me up to equal time.  There was no risk (or hope) of me walking away with full custody.  However, problems continued and so I went back to court with Change in Circumstances seeking custody and majority time.  I did get custody but I didn't get majority time until another 3 years passed.

In my state legal custody (addressing major decisions) is separate from the parenting schedule.  That's how I became Legal Guardian years before getting majority parenting time.  Your lawyer can detail how your state handles such matters.  What I'm saying is that if you're overly fair or overly cautious then you could be sabotaging yourself from a better outcome for your daughter.  Does that make sense?  You know your spouse wouldn't reciprocate similarly.

I list this all for you so you understand it's very hard for a parent to get full custody.  Courts studiously avoid helping one parent look good and the other look bad, at least at first.  Courts first want the parents to try joint custody, unless there are real reasons to the contrary.  That said, I don't know your history nor what documentation you have of poor behaviors.  Maybe it's enough to tip the scales, a good local experienced and proactive lawyer can advise you.

Many of us here were too-fair and too-nice when we first tangled in the legal arena.  Sadly, our spouses didn't reciprocate our concerns.  Also sadly, court doesn't care how nice or fair we are.  They ignore almost everything, both good and bad, unless the poor behavior rises to the level of being 'actionable'.  I sometimes repeat this saying... .The parent behaving well gets little or no credit and the parent behaving poorly gets little or no consequences.  Probably your lawyer will agree.  Adjust your approach to everything legal with that in mind.

[borderlinesand]

Hi Toad17. 
There are already tons of amazing responses to your query.  I'll add my brief comments to the mix. 

It might sound harsh.  But you have to be someone you don't want to be AND someone you really want to be.

You don't want to be unkind to your ex but you will have to be.  And she's going to make sure everyone knows about it.  No way around it.

You do want to be a fantastic father who protects your children. The only way to do that is to be 100% for her and 0% for your ex.  It's an awful reality.  Be stalwart and uncompromising in your efforts to protect your child.

At one point earlier on I was still trying to help my ex, by being fair, by living by my code of equity.  It took me years to really understand that doing so was only prolonging my children's suffering.  It was a very hard thing to do... .to really give up on being kind to my ex.  I came to see it this way... .her behavior is literally an out of control behavior.  It's begging for a boundary. So I finally started giving her boundaries instead of thinking that concessions would somehow make her more sane.

Without exception, the tougher I was, the more well behaved (relatively speaking) she was.  I still feel guilty about it.  When I had to sue for full custody just in order to gain back some of my most basic rights with my children... .I felt like I had become some kind of monster myself. I   didn't get full custody, because what my lawyer and I did was we guessed that if my ex was faced with the threat of not having her children to control any longer... .well... she'd do anything to avoid that.  She doesn't really love her children. But she does love to control them like game pieces. So we hit her with a full custody paperwork set... .and then said that we would concede to 50/50.  At that point I didn't have 50/50 and she was controlling every thing.  So that gamble won.  And yes, my kids knew about it and yes, they thought I was being awful.

It's going to be a rollercoaster no matter what you do. But my advice is to just think of environment. What environment is best for your child.  If that's with you and you know that's true, then be ruthless in creating that environment.

[borderlinesand]

Oh! one other thing.  In some states if you move out of the primary home before certain papers have been filed then you can be found guilty of the legal definition of Abandonment.  I nearly had that happen to me.  Or rather... .she could have pursued that with me.  I was "kicked" out of the home... .told to leave.  I left and got an apartment 2 miles away.  Then my lawyer freaked out and said that if my wife's lawyer was sharp enough they'd be able to get me on Abandonment... .which does not look particularly good.

Stay at the primary residence until your lawyer gives you the all clear.

[livednlearned]

I did ponder over the thought of full physical custody. Other than the legal fight, there is an emotional aspect of my D... .I'll fight with all my life for equal custody.

It's good to know how your state carves up custody. In my state, for example, there is no such thing as full custody, at least not in the legal sense. There is no "sole" custody.

One parent has primary physical custody, and both share joint legal custody, and then there is visitation. Some have special "decision-making" accommodations, either for medical, education, or both.

If you end up with 50/50 visitation, then the primary physical custody doesn't mean all that much, unless you both live close by but are districted to different schools and one parent has a preference for this or that school. Even that can be litigated after the fact, if neither parent can agree, although the primary physical parent would in all likelihood have a head start.

That's how it works where I live. Your state may handle it a bit different.

States also split legal custody up in different ways. Where I live, parents can have joint legal custody with one parent having tie-breaker status on medical issues. Or joint legal custody and one parent has tie-breaker status on education and medical decisions.

In other words, the devil is in the details.

Most courts have moved away from the "tender doctrine" bias (toward mothers) toward "best interests of the child" (two parents equal time is best for kids). Even in courts that espouse "best interests of the child," there can still be a bias toward the mother.

It can be really helpful to write down a list of questions for your L, then have a friend or someone to come to meetings with you and write stuff down. Our emotions can peak during those conversations, making it hard to remember what was said.

[david]

Something that helped me. I switched roles with my ex in my head. If I was behaving the way she was what, when I got proper help, would I have wanted my ex to do for our kids. It made me think in terms of what was best and ex would understand, perhaps, at some point. If she never understood then I did what was best for our kids.

[worriedStepmom]

I did ponder over the thought of full physical custody. Other than the legal fight, there is an emotional aspect of my D. Childhood "traumas" have lasting impact and no matter how much validation I do after the trauma, my D will be devastated if she is fully cut off from BPDw. She is very attached to BPDw. In the process of leaving a BPD, I don't want to contribute another BPD to humanity. Childhood traumas can potentially create BPD in later stages. But it is true that 50/50 is very hard to achieve. If I manage to get equal custody, and when my D is grown enough to understand her mom's dysfunctional emotions, she might be able to make a better choice and I can fight alongside her for full custody. For now, I'll fight with all my life for equal custody.

It's unlikely that you'll be able to get full custody (meaning nothing or only teeny bits for mom) without a lot of evidence of abuse.  There is usually a spectrum, though, generally starting with about a 70%/30% split in mom's favor (every-other-weekend dad) and ending about 70/30 in dad's favor.

There's no harm in asking for a 70/30 split to start out.  Definitely fight for 50/50, and be creative if needed.  My H technically had 35/65 when he and uBPDx divorced, but H structured it so that he got SD every Thur and Fri night, every Saturday until 7 pm, and every other Saturday night/Sunday until 7 pm.  It meant SD never went more than 5 days without seeing dad, and that unless mom took time off, SD never had more than 36 hours in a row with mom present - she'd have school or day care as a break.  SD's life - extracurriculars, friends, sleepovers, etc - was at our house and she existed at mom's.

When H got primary custody this summer, it's flipped 65/35 in his favor.  uBPDmom doesn't have SD more than 3 days in a row... .because 5 days in a row was stressing SD out.  I fully expect that we'll be back in court again in a few years to get SD to have even less time at mom's.

Honestly, regardless of where you start out with on custody, your job will be to monitor your child's stress levels and behaviors and mom's dysregulations around custody, document/document/document, and take action when your child needs to be protected.  My SD made it 9 years before she became overwhelmed.  Some kids need intervention way before that.  It's unlikely to be a "one and done" court experience, unfortunately.

[david]

We were in our last custody eval (the third) and ex dysregulated in front of the evaluator. I was shocked that she couldn't contain herself.
My proposal was for 50/50. It was a two week schedule. Fri, Sat, Sun with mom/ Mon with dad/ Tues, Wed with mom/ Thurs, Fri, Sat, Sun, Mon with dad/ Tues, Wed with mom/ Thurs with dad/ repeat.
The evaluator challenged me because this was not the normal way of doing things. My main goal was to have the boys a lot during the school year to help them with their school work. They were already doing over 95% of their school work when with me and I was EOW and one night. I pointed out that Monday helped me set the tone for the week. Thursday was the wrap up day. I explained my position. The evaluator recommended that set up. In court, the judge challenged me too. I pretty much said the same thing I said to the evaluator. I thought about it afterwards and wondered if the evaluator discussed it with the judge and they wanted to see how consistent I was. Judge went along with it. Those long weekends helped a lot.

[takingandsending]

Hi Toad17.

My youngest son was 5 when I moved out. I did not move out until I had some agreement on custody time. Like you, I couldn't tolerate the thought of my sons losing contact with their mom, how much that would hurt them, how much loss they might feel. I also work full time, and was afraid/uncertain how I could manage to take care of them while working. As a result, I had something akin to 33% time when I left (in terms only of overnights).

After 2 years of attempted collaborative divorce, I now have 50% time, primarily on the basis that my xw confided to my oldest son's T that she heard voices telling her to crash her car into a brick wall because my son was having a tantrum in the back seat.

Let me ask you something, do you, deep in your heart, really feel that your wife is stable and capable, under difficult, stressful situations to take care of your daughter?

Remember that kids need us most when we are at our worst. If I had that choice to make over again, I never would have entered into the discussion trying for 50/50. Even now that I have it, I consider that I made a mistake that is harmful to my sons. And yeah, you are going to be painted a monster by your spouse, and your daughter may even believe it, but you know you are acting out of love and concern for D4. I think you have to make peace with that.

[david]

When this all started our boys were 4.5 and 8. I was very concerned. Over time I learned that they learned to take care of themselves when at their moms. Our last custody eval had the evaluator talk to both boys separately. He talked to each one for about 45 minutes. The next meeting was just me and their mom. He said that both boys expressed love for both parents. He wanted to concentrate on the things he found concerning. I sat there and listened the entire time since he only had a conversation with ex. One thing that stuck out to him was when he asked to describe a typical day at moms and a typical day at dads. Neither boy ever mentioned anything about their mom when they were with her and their conversation about time with me included me in their conversations. The boys had conveyed that to me prior and I listened but didn't grasp how total it was. Ex went out and left them there or she was up in her room and had minimal interaction with either boy. Our oldest was basically the cook for both of them.
Our S19 lives with me full time now and our youngest is 15. We are still 50/50 with him. Last night, he called me to talk. It was around 9:30 pm and he was by himself. His mom was out. He made dinner for himself and was going to bed.
I do not believe my ex is capable to take care of our son. I do believe our son has learned to take care of himself. I also believe that both boys don't have many positive thoughts or feelings about their mom. I can't change that and honestly I can understand their feelings. Ex has created her relationship with them by her own behaviors.

[Toad17]

Thank you all for amazing answers and guidance. Looks like I have lot to think through and evaluate my options.

You guys rock!