Husband is very clingy, how to set boundaries?

[dozenroads]

Anyone here deal with a very clingy spouse?  My husband can get so clingy sometimes, when he's extremely anxious or sad or has had a bad episode (nightmares, night terrors, psychotic symptoms).  He will cry and want to be held like a young child.  He then becomes very clingy to me and our children, especially my 10 year old son, often for days at a time, until he feels calmer than he backs off from us and could care less about closeness.

I've brought it up in our marriage counseling sessions and our therapist has told him that he can't go to our kids for support like that.  She has said he needs to learn to self soothe, before he goes to comfort from me as his wife. But, he doesn't seem to really understand, he just keeps clinging to us, like he's hanging on for dear life.

I feel like he sees the 'clinging' as a positive thing, he says he's just being snugly and loving.  I've been trying nicely to let him know that he needs to make sure to give others space and maybe find something productive to do.  At night, he will cling to me, which wakes me up and keeps me from falling back asleep. Last night he woke me up to hold onto me and when I moved away he took my arm and put it around him and held on extremely tight when I tried to move my arm away.  I finally was able to let go, but it leaves me frustrated.  I hate the clinging, I feel like he wants me to be his mother when it gets like this and I already have three kids to mother, I don't enjoy one more clinging to me.

I'm looking for some ideas on how to set some boundaries with him.  Or maybe some ideas I can to suggest to him, maybe some way for him to understand it's very unhealthy for those around him to be put into that position.  I know if affects me immensely, I don't sleep well, I feel smothered and suffocated, and left feeling like his mother not his wife.  And I really worry how it will affect my kids, they shouldn't have to be that kind of support to him. 

Thanks!

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Skip]

We have a really good article on values/boundaries... .

"Setting Boundaries" is a life skill that has been recommended by therapists, self-help authors and support groups since the mid 1980's. It is the practice of openly communicating, asserting, and defending personal values. The term "boundary" is a metaphor. "In bounds" means acceptable to you. "Out-of-bounds" means unacceptable.

This is the life skill of openly communicating, asserting, and defending personal values.

The need for better “boundaries” is advice often given when someone complains about how another person has been treating them.

“Help, my girlfriend isn’t treating me well. Now she is giving me the silent treatment.”

“Well, friend, you need to set some boundaries”.

“You’re right, I have bad boundaries.”

From this discussion one might believe that if we are angry and say "no more" or even walk out that our girlfriend (or other loved one) will change their ways and all will be well. That's not what this is about.
https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

Hope you have time to take a few minutes to read it. 

I hear your frustration and some resentment. I share your concern about the possibility of unhealthy parentification of the children.

I can also imagine how your husband (or any man) would react if their showing or affection or vulnerability was looked upon as weakness or dinginess. After all, the true definition of intimacy knowing someones fears, dreams, hopes and desires and accepting and loving them?

This is not an easy road to navigate, by any means. You certainly want to be careful and measured in how you handle this - and that starts with being careful and measured with how you feel about it. You don't want to breakdown what good you have in your relationship.

I don't think this is about boundaries. It might be more in finding a substitute means of expression that works better for the two of you.

Members can help with that if it seems like a direction to go.

I would post about the parentification on the family law board. I would use that term in the title:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?board=10.0

Skip

[livednlearned]

My BPD loved one is needy too.

With her, I have had to really shore up my own emotional strength and get things in place proactively (and also let some stuff go). Sort of like what Skip said, trying to redirect the way she expresses her needs and feelings so that I don't feel I'm parenting a toddler (she's 21).

She has spells, similar to what you're describing with your H, and there are usually signs when things are building. Her neediness expresses as lots of physical touch, crowding space, and text bombing.

Do you notice any patterns when your H becomes more needy?

Is he working?

[dozenroads]

I can also imagine how your husband (or any man) would react if their showing or affection or vulnerability was looked upon as weakness or dinginess. After all, the true definition of intimacy knowing someones fears, dreams, hopes and desires and accepting and loving them?

This is really good to remember and a very good point.  I am very happy he is able to show affection and vulnerability and it is a strength in our relationship.  Where I struggle is in comforting him and knowing what my role should be. He'll often get upset with me for not giving enough physical touch (holding him mainly), when I know that I've given what I can without doing harm to myself. I've often burned out in the past trying to meet his needs and my own emotional health has taken a toll.  I know I'm giving my best, but it's never quite enough.  He's always held the view that if only I gave more than he would be better. 
 
I want him to be able to express his emotions, maybe just learning some different forms of expression is what's needed.  He did just start DBT classes, which I'm sure will help a lot with learning some different ideas for expression and coping.  Both my therapist and our therapist have suggested I get an idea of what he's learning, so I can encourage him to use those skills when he's struggling and I can still comfort him, but not carry the responsibility of managing his emotions.

I will check out the boundaries section and the family law section.  Thanks for you reply!

[Skip]

Work with us om specifics... .explain a sitiation and brainstorm on how it can be handled.  I think that will help.

livednlearned is extremely knowledgeable in this area.

   Welcome!

[dozenroads]

My BPD loved one is needy too.

With her, I have had to really shore up my own emotional strength and get things in place proactively (and also let some stuff go). Sort of like what Skip said, trying to redirect the way she expresses her needs and feelings so that I don't feel I'm parenting a toddler (she's 21).

She has spells, similar to what you're describing with your H, and there are usually signs when things are building. Her neediness expresses as lots of physical touch, crowding space, and text bombing.

Do you notice any patterns when your H becomes more needy?

Is he working?

His neediness can be lot of physical touch, needing constant attention, lots of praise, following me around everywhere, needing me to help him with any tasks he’s working on.

The worst is when he gets overly stressed or anxious, this can lead to some manic/psychotic symptoms (he has bipolar disorder 2 as well).  Following these the neediness gets really intense.

Most recently it’s been his mom coming to him for emotional support, dumping a lot of drama on him, him wanting to help her, but getting stressed out. Two weeks ago he had a psychotic episode after he got caught up in some obsessive research and his mom also dumped her drama on him.  It was very difficult and lead to him becoming extremely clingy, where he would need to be held all night, constant need for physical touch on and off all day, clinging to me, the kids, the pets for the week following the episode. 

Now, his mom dumped some more drama on him, rushed to him for emotional support a couple of days ago.  He wanted to help and try to fix it.  He’s working on setting boundaries, but it’s been very difficult for him to do.  It left him really stressed and he’s back to needing me for comfort and support.  Waking me up at night to be held, needing to be around me all day, needing constant attention, etc.

Another big factor is his work life.  He works only occasionally, so he’s home and lost a lot and really has no friends.  I’m his only support.  He is also going to be seeking a new job soon, so that has his anxiety on high right now.

Any ideas on helping his express his needs and feelings would be great.  I’m just trying to help him, but keep myself from burning out completely.  I just need a little space and sleep to keep me going. 

Thanks!

[livednlearned]

That's a tough dynamic with his mom.

And really wonderful that there are DBT skills within reach for both of you.

If he's lived his whole life without knowing how to self-soothe, he may need a lot of help breaking that work down into small steps. DBT can be really helpful for that. For all of us, really.

If you say something like, "I want to be here for you, and I want to also make sure you have ways to care for yourself when I'm too tired, like at night when I'm exhausted. Remember how the T talked about self-soothing? Let's try getting you some headphones and see if there's a guided meditation that works for you, something you can use when I'm out or too tired or taking care of the kids. I tried it myself and it was a bit strange at first and then I found one I thought was so comforting I fell asleep. It might take a while to get one that works for you -- I had to listen to 4 or 5 before I found one that worked for me."

How do you think he might respond to something like that?

This step is deceptively hard. You give him something good (your time and attention) while sharing skills he will use on his own (new, scary, not tested) when you have to set limits (his worse fear) without knowing if it will work longterm (frustrating).

Give him positive attention for finding something that soothes him. You'll probably have to endure some impatience and irritation -- it takes a while to change habits.

And keep posting here. Writing it down will help you identify tiny little changes and small adjustments that work for your relationship.

[dozenroads]

That's a tough dynamic with his mom.

And really wonderful that there are DBT skills within reach for both of you.

If he's lived his whole life without knowing how to self-soothe, he may need a lot of help breaking that work down into small steps. DBT can be really helpful for that. For all of us, really.

If you say something like, "I want to be here for you, and I want to also make sure you have ways to care for yourself when I'm too tired, like at night when I'm exhausted. Remember how the T talked about self-soothing? Let's try getting you some headphones and see if there's a guided meditation that works for you, something you can use when I'm out or too tired or taking care of the kids. I tried it myself and it was a bit strange at first and then I found one I thought was so comforting I fell asleep. It might take a while to get one that works for you -- I had to listen to 4 or 5 before I found one that worked for me."

How do you think he might respond to something like that?

This step is deceptively hard. You give him something good (your time and attention) while sharing skills he will use on his own (new, scary, not tested) when you have to set limits (his worse fear) without knowing if it will work longterm (frustrating).

Give him positive attention for finding something that soothes him. You'll probably have to endure some impatience and irritation -- it takes a while to change habits.

And keep posting here. Writing it down will help you identify tiny little changes and small adjustments that work for your relationship.

Thank you for your reply.  Meditation has been suggested before, but he's quick to dismiss it because he doesn't like how they sound, but I think continuing to encourage him and remind him it may take awhile to find one he likes is good to remember.   I will try to word it in a positive way and see if he's receptive to it.  The way you worded it is very helpful, maybe just phrasing it right will help.

Thank you!

[Radcliff]

One thing that might work to help soothe him for nighttime anxiety is a weighted blanket.  Imagine snuggling under heavy winter covers -- it's like that, but way better.  It feels a bit like a hug, and is used for folks with PTSD and other anxiety issues.  You can order them online.  Maybe if it came as a gift from you, and you helped him with it the first time he used it, he'd feel your presence even when you were sleeping or not there.  I've been living alone while separated from my wife and am recovering from PTSD, and a weighted blanket has been a game changer for me.

RC

[livednlearned]

Weighted blankets are wonderful!

dozenroads, if your H has already vetoed something like meditation, then you may need to try a different approach.

I had to do Acceptance Commitment Therapy (ACT) with my son, who has OCD tendencies and social anxiety. ACT skills can help a caregiver (like us) reduce accommodations for someone's behavior. It often starts with a sample announcement, for your situation it might be something like:

"I love you very much and I love how affectionate you are. I know how nighttime can be a particularly hard time with night fears, and how you want to snuggle and cuddle in the middle of the night. I realize it makes you feel better when you are held and rocked. I want to keep doing that, and I also need to make sure I'm rested so I can be a good spouse to you and a good mom to the kids. I know it will be important for you to be able to soothe yourself when I'm out or taking care of the kids or asleep. I'm going to think about ways to support you that will make it so we can handle this in a way that works for both of us."

Essentially: I love you, this thing is powerful, I will continue to support you in a way that works for both of us. I  have some ideas. We can think this through together. Change is coming and it's ok.

Would you be willing to explore mindfulness with him? It's a big thing to take on. What sitting position is most comfortable, what kind of mindfulness (music, gongs, guided meditation, chanting, total silence, body scan, etc.), for how long.

My H and I did mindfulness-based stress reduction classes together and that was the foundation. From there, I explored different apps and we would discuss what we liked, didn't like, and it slowly became part of our "language," especially when things became stressful.

I tend to not breathe when I'm stressed, to the point I fainted last summer  

So I now take breathing very seriously  

[BetterLanes]

Hi dozenroads,

My H is also very clingy, and wakes me in the night and early morning touching me and wanting to be touched. He also defines this behavior as "giving affection" and "giving attention" and gets resentful or upset if I avoid it, but as you find it can be very intrusive and invasive in such quantity. In the early part of the relationship I used to notice the clingy behaviors a lot more when we were around his FOO and at social events, both of which he finds unsettling. Since I recently raised issues with the relationship he has scaled this behavior up massively and I haven't yet been able to tell him it is actually one of the relationship issues too! He even needed my physical touch for comfort right after we had the "big conversation" where I raised the relationship issues, which hurt him very much. It seemed really strange to me that he would do this right after that conversation, and it was very hard for me because I wanted physical space and couldn't get it even in that situation.

My H's recently acquired T has suggested melatonin to help with his sleeping problems, which I am hoping will help with his night waking and touching. The T has also indicated to him that he has an "anxious-preoccupied" attachment style, which fits with that behavior. He has wondered before if he is autistic and scored high on an online test for that, and his T is currently checking out that idea.  I haven't seen this talked about as usual for BPD, and it is one of the things that makes me doubt whether BPD would be the correct or only diagnosis for my H. He doesn't flip between angry and romantic-attentive like an adult, he flips between angry and wanting to be mothered-clingy like a child. Does your H have any formal diagnosis at the moment?

BetterLanes x

[BetterLanes]

Hi again dozenroads,

Update from my H's recent T session, his T thinks that he has "separation anxiety" (not as his only problem, but apparently it is a real thing in adults). Here's an interesting page I read about it -

https://www.healthline.com/health/separation-anxiety-in-adults

His T currently seems to be going down the route of addressing his anxiety issues, so we will see what else comes out of the process. But this is interesting as a possible explanation for this set of behaviors.

BetterLanes x

[dozenroads]

Betterlanes,  Sorry for the late reply.  You're husband sounds a lot like mine.  I can definitely relate to the 'want to be mothered-clingy like a child'.  He is often like that when he's anxious/scared.  He also sees the clinginess as me giving him affection.  He feels that since his love language is physical tough, then I should hold him/give physical touch when he needs it.

We've been trying to work on more 'couples touch.'  Our therapist has told us to practice more of a couples hold, like me laying on his chest or cuddling.  He doesn't seem comfortable with it and almost averse to it.  He is definitely not romantic attentive in any way.  His main desire for physical touch is a mothering touch.

The anxious-preoccupied attachment style is very interesting. Sounds a lot like my husband.

For now, I am trying to remind him to use the skills he's learning in DBT class.  I also will ask him what he could do now to help his anxiety, that won't require waking anyone up.  He just needs to get used to doing that on his own. 

His formal diagnosis is bipolar 2, but I suspect BPD is more likely.  My therapist and our marriage therapist are the ones who mentioned borderline personality disorder to me and I feel it explains most his symptoms.  I could definitely see where separation anxiety is similar to the abandonment issue of BPD.

[Radcliff]

dozenroads, how has sleeping been going lately?  Did you have a chance to try the approach that livednlearned suggested?

RC

[dozenroads]

dozenroads, how has sleeping been going lately?  Did you have a chance to try the approach that livednlearned suggested?

RC

His sleep had really improved for awhile, his anxiety was down, but now his anxiety is back in full force and he's not sleeping and very clingy again and just really struggling in general.  I have been working on discussing mindfulness with him and think I will really explore that now that the sleeping is going down hill, I think it will be a good thing for both of us to work on together.  Although it does seem like he's very unsure of new things, dismisses them often.  He knows what's worked in the past (physical touch, alcohol, etc.), so it's a bit of a struggle to get him used to trying different skills. 

[dozenroads]

I had to do Acceptance Commitment Therapy (ACT) with my son, who has OCD tendencies and social anxiety. ACT skills can help a caregiver (like us) reduce accommodations for someone's behavior. It often starts with a sample announcement, for your situation it might be something like:

"I love you very much and I love how affectionate you are. I know how nighttime can be a particularly hard time with night fears, and how you want to snuggle and cuddle in the middle of the night. I realize it makes you feel better when you are held and rocked. I want to keep doing that, and I also need to make sure I'm rested so I can be a good spouse to you and a good mom to the kids. I know it will be important for you to be able to soothe yourself when I'm out or taking care of the kids or asleep. I'm going to think about ways to support you that will make it so we can handle this in a way that works for both of us."

Essentially: I love you, this thing is powerful, I will continue to support you in a way that works for both of us. I  have some ideas. We can think this through together. Change is coming and it's ok.

Would you be willing to explore mindfulness with him? It's a big thing to take on. What sitting position is most comfortable, what kind of mindfulness (music, gongs, guided meditation, chanting, total silence, body scan, etc.), for how long.

My H and I did mindfulness-based stress reduction classes together and that was the foundation. From there, I explored different apps and we would discuss what we liked, didn't like, and it slowly became part of our "language," especially when things became stressful. 

Thank you for all of this wonderful information!  I have been looking into ACT and there's a lot of really helpful information I'm learning.

Now that his anxiety is back and his sleeping is going down hill, I will try communicating with him about finding ways to help him.  I am very open to exploring mindfulness with him, maybe we can find some helpful apps to explore together.

His anxiety right now is stemming from an impending career change.  He's very nervous that he won't be able to find work, or it will go bad, or the pressure will feel too great.  He expressed to me that he's terrified if a new job doesn't go over well, it could cause him to 'snap' to the point of committing suicide. I'm not always sure how to help him in these situations. 

[Radcliff]

You've got a tough situation.  You want to be supportive.  You need to sleep.  He needs to sleep.  His challenges aren't easy to overcome.

What are your thoughts on the balance between letting him solve his own problems, and you helping him solve his problems?  There aren't easy answers here; I'm asking to prompt discussion.

RC

[dozenroads]

You've got a tough situation.  You want to be supportive.  You need to sleep.  He needs to sleep.  His challenges aren't easy to overcome.

What are your thoughts on the balance between letting him solve his own problems, and you helping him solve his problems?  There aren't easy answers here; I'm asking to prompt discussion.

RC

This last week I have been trying to find that balance, offering him time to talk, comfort him, and really encouraging him to think of and talk about things he learns in his DBT classes and therapy.  Then I've been able to say I'm going to bed after a bit, and he's been able to sleep and has let me sleep, which is great!

However, his anxiety is getting increasingly worse and I'm noticing a lot of obsessive behavior, as well as not wanting to be alone.  For now I'm just talking with him, talking about his classes, trying to help him remember certain things from therapy.  Talking about mindfulness and calming techniques.  The resistance is pretty strong still to these ideas, but hopefully he'll find his way there.  I also have to remember to listen to my own self, know when I've reached my limit and then let him know I need sleep or time to myself, etc.