pwBPD as chameleons

[AskingWhy]

My uBPD/uNPD H has identity issues as manifestations of his PDs.  BPDs have identity problems and really don't know who they are, so they can change their identity and be like chameleons depending on who they are with. 

First, H will agree with anyone from whom he needs approval.  This is mostly his friends and certainly his adult children.

For instance, we can be eating a meal and one of the children will start up on a soapbox about political beliefs or morals.  I know H is horrified, but he will smile and nod, agreeing with what is being said.  H can't even stick up for his own beliefs.

One of the adult children invited H to a sporting event that H despises, but he bought the tickets, the concession refreshments, and also a jersey and a hat with the team mascot.  H hates this sport, but since the child likes it, he likes it.  H wears the jersey and hat all the time now.  I said, "I thought you disliked that sport," and H got angry and defensive.  Was H going along with his child in order to get approval?  H is now planning on more of these father/child outings to sporting events.   Of course, they are costly but H will pay.  (Sporting tickets like this are $100 each.)

We had a lunch for his coworkers and H was talking to his colleagues about political issues--and I know he does not hold those beliefs.  Yet H was going on an on about this issue and that, agreeing with his colleagues.  I thought, "What a fake!"

H often goes out of town to visit his friends for entire weekends at a time.  On these visits, H drinks to excess and gets drunk.  At one point, he would call me with slurred speech and I found it disgusting, but more often he'd be so drunk he just forgot to call me; all the better as I dislike dealing with H when he is drunk.  (He thankfully does not drive like this. He just sits around at friends' houses and gets wasted.)  Now he calls me late in the afternoon because he knows (and I know) that he will be drunk or will forget to call me to say good-night due to his being drunk.

This is the BPD "out of sight, out of mind."  When H is having fun drinking with his pals, his wife no longer exists for him.  (H never, however, forgets to call his adult children.  He is enmeshed with them.) 

I know these behaviours are part of the disorder, but it's really disturbing to see this splitting in action.   All I could think of was,"Hypocrite!"

Has anyone else seen a partner or spouse be a chameleon or a fake like this?   

[schwing]

My exBPDgf once described herself as a "chameleon" and I had no idea what she was talking about because she was almost always the person I thought she was when/while she was with me.

For instance, we can be eating a meal and one of the children will start up on a soapbox about political beliefs or morals.  I know H is horrified, but he will smile and nod, agreeing with what is being said.  H can't even stick up for his own beliefs.

You might consider that when he is identifying with you, he might be horrified by that child's political beliefs.  But when he is identifying with that child, his opinions are different.  If one's beliefs are so changeable, does one actually have beliefs to uphold?

One of the adult children invited H to a sporting event that H despises, but he bought the tickets, the concession refreshments, and also a jersey and a hat with the team mascot.  H hates this sport, but since the child likes it, he likes it.  H wears the jersey and hat all the time now.  I said, "I thought you disliked that sport," and H got angry and defensive.  Was H going along with his child in order to get approval?  

I don't think you are going far enough with the "chameleon" analogy. Your H only despises the sport when he identifies with the personality he uses to related to you.  When he is relating to his children, his identity *changes* to accommodate the kind of relationship he wants/needs from his kids.  It's not like one of these identities is his *true* identity.  There is no true identity.  If there were, then people with BPD wouldn't have "identity disturbances."

We had a lunch for his coworkers and H was talking to his colleagues about political issues--and I know he does not hold those beliefs.  Yet H was going on an on about this issue and that, agreeing with his colleagues.  I thought, "What a fake!"

Fake implies there is a genuine or authentic (fully developed) identity. I would argue that some pwBPD do not have a fully developed sense of identity.

I understand the difficulty of accepting this.  How does someone who is not disordered understand what it means to lack a sense of self?  We are always ourselves.  What is it like when we don't know who we are?

I know these behaviours are part of the disorder, but it's really disturbing to see this splitting in action.   All I could think of was,"Hypocrite!"

Has anyone else seen a partner or spouse be a chameleon or a fake like this?  

Again, I don't think you have fully accepted the degree to which your BPD loved one has identity disturbances.  It's perhaps more severe than you realize.

I did see my exBPDgf behave very differently when she was interacted with a different set of people.  I too thought she was behaving in a "fake" manner.  It didn't occur to me until much later that when she described herself as a chameleon she was telling me that she was literally a different person depending upon with whom she was primarily attached to at that time.

Best wishes,

Schwing

[Turkish]

To add to what schwing said about identity disturbance,  a pwBPD feels "my feelings are inherently worthless and don't matter; therfore,  I am inherently worthless and don't matter." Thus he's getting along to get along because he fears being invalidated. 

This frustrates you,  but he sees the world through a distorted lens. Given that you can't change that,  what do you do? Hard, I know. I beat my head against walls covering for my ex's distorted thinking. 

[AskingWhy]

I did see my exBPDgf behave very differently when she was interacted with a different set of people.  I too thought she was behaving in a "fake" manner.  It didn't occur to me until much later that when she described herself as a chameleon she was telling me that she was literally a different person depending upon with whom she was primarily attached to at that time.

Best wishes,

Schwing

Schwing, thank you for the reply and explanation.  I have difficulty relating to someone who does not know who he is.  I have very firm ideas about who I am, and will not back down on disagreeing just to get along or get approval.  Your noting that "fake" means a deliberate attempt to cover up one's own thoughts and beliefs; the BPD does not have any identity or thoughts to cover up or misrepresent.

In "The Essential Family Guide" by Randi Kreger, it discusses men and domestic violence.  A BPD man looks in the mirror and sees a nobody, and feels shame and fear, then acts out with violence when he dysregulates.  It made sense to me.

I understand when H is getting drunk with friends that it is a form of splitting.  When drunk, I cease to exist to him (that is why he forgets to call me), and he is under the influence of the alcohol and consumed in the company of his friends.  

I know some people drink to socialize, but I think my H does so (taking advantage of the parties) to numb himself because he feels fear, does not know who he is, hates himself and hates his FOO.  

@Turkish, thank you.  I have accepted his drinking (it hurts me to have him forget, but I know it's due to the object permanence issues), but I have let him know that he needs to hire a cab or get a ride if he is drunk.  So far, in the last several years, he, at least, has has the self-awareness to do this.  (He has non-drinking guests to be designated drivers.)  In the past, he would drive drunk.  As H is enmeshed with and obsessed with his adult children, I mentioned that it would not be good to him to get arrested for drinking and his children notified of it.  Even worse if he went to prison.

[Turkish]

That's a significant worry,  and I'm glad that at least he's taken steps to keep himself and others safe. 

[Notwendy]

I think this is an aspect that pwBPD and nons both share- I think both have some co-dependent tendencies/issues with boundaries. I think both can tend to be people pleasers. After all, if we didn't so easily bend to the will of a pwBPD, we would not likely be dealing with some of the issues we deal with.

I think this contributes to the Jeckyl Hyde personalities. It's emotionally tiring to keep up a persona. I think when they are at home with the people closest to them, the mask comes off.

I don't particularly like it- it feels fake to me,  but it is also a reminder to me that I need to have the courage to be authentic- to not act out of fear. If we look at what is underneath the "act" it is fear of disapproval and wanting to be accepted. I think an exception would be a narcissist who is doing this for manipulative motives.

In some of the scenarios, I might also do the same thing but for different reasons. Sometimes we are willing to do something for the experience together if the activity isn't something I disliked strongly or it violated a value boundary. If an adult child had an interest in a sport that I didn't particularly care about, I might get the tickets and go to the event to spend time with them. I might even enjoy some of it. College football tickets can be expensive, but I've attended a few if my family members are fans. I don't love football but I don't see it as hypocrisy to spend time with family at an event- because I am willing to go and I don't feel resentment if I do. The resentment is the key. If we say yes, but mean no, and end up resenting the situation, then I think we have crossed the line to overly people pleasing.

Politics these days is so polarized, I might decide to just nod and keep my mouth shut in certain social situations, not to people please but because a discussion isn't often productive or worth the hostility it incites. I do have my own opinions, but I also have friends on all sides of the political fence, some who feel quite strongly about their positions. I don't mind listening to them, and at times, I can agree with some of their points but I would prefer to not have the situation escalate to an unproductive argument.

It is irritating to see the extent of it in a spouse, but I try to keep in mind that how someone relates to their own circle isn't my issue- unless it is with me directly. I'd rather someone be honest with me, and I hope to be mindful of myself in these situations as well.

Drinking excessively is another whole level of concern. I would be more concerned about that than "people pleasing" in social situations. I think both are part of the larger issue with BPD, but excessive drinking to numb out is a problem in itself.

[Cat Familiar]

My husband drinks to excess, but thankfully not as much as he used to. He's a very private person and loathe to talk about his inner world, so I was very surprised when he began a conversation about a fellow we had seen over the years in bars at restaurants. This guy now looked very thin and unhealthy and he and his wife have been regulars at some of the local watering holes and we'd see them almost every time we went into town for dinner. I think they were more often there for the alcohol than the bar menu.

Anyway my husband mentioned later how awful that guy looked and the first thing out of my mouth was, "Yeah, he's a major alcoholic." (My extreme candor sneaks up on me at times.) Perhaps it's because my husband has started to worry about his health after having a hip replacement some months ago and feeling a sense of vulnerability, that he's even thinking along these lines. But it was a slight opening to him talking about alcohol use.

Again I managed to shoot my mouth off, theorizing that people drink to avoid internal pain. He took issue with that, saying it's more complex and that men in our culture have lots of issues.

I figured out a bridge to join our thoughts and said, "Yeah, women now have options they didn't have many years ago about how to participate in the culture. While men are still rule-bound in so many ways and there are so many cultural expectations on them that must be stifling." He agreed, and seemed surprised that I understood, and that was pretty much the end of his contribution to the conversation. I let it end on that note instead of my previously usual approach of chasing down conversational leads until they were dead, dead. (BTW, he's not an easy guy to have a conversation with, if you haven't noticed.   )

[AskingWhy]

Yes, I do think pwBPD substance abuse to numb out the pain of emptiness.  The don't like being black holes.

When H drinks more than just a glass of wine with dinner, he gets utterly wasted.  Granted he only does this when he is not driving, but I think it points to his hating himself.  He gets to the point where he can't even walk straight or get a sentence out right.  I dislike being around him when he is that wasted.  On the thankfully rare occasions I have seen H this way, this is what I have observed.  The friends he drinks with are also heavy drinkers, so they reinforce each other.

I can't understand why anyone would feel the need to get that wasted.  I can only conclude it's the BPD.  H's FOO is very dysfunctional and although H is a professional and highly regarded in his professional circles, H is very insecure.  When triggers present themselves, H projects his rage on to me.  (If his adult children anger him, he finds fault with me. There is a very clear connection.  For instance, his S called him from jail wanting bail money, and immediately H flew into a rage with me over the dinner I was cooking.

My H says he only gets wasted when with friends and he is not driving.  Personally, I think no one needs to get that wasted.  I think H is in denial, and it's cognitive dissonance.

[formflier]

I thought, "What a fake!"

How do you propose figuring out when he is faking and when he has changed his mind?  Or is perhaps being polite?

FF

[AskingWhy]

How do you propose figuring out when he is faking and when he has changed his mind?  Or is perhaps being polite?

FF

I know what personal, spiritual and political beliefs H holds.  It's clear when he is around people whose approval he craves that he can flip and deny his own values.  It's not simply being polite. 

H does not want to alienate those whose approval he needs.  For instance, I know H detests a certain musical band and yet his D loves them.  He spent part of the weekend in her company where he listened to a lot of this genre of music.

Now H listens to this genre.  He still says he detests it, but his listening to it is a concrete reminder of his daughter and his attachment (actually enmeshment) to her.    I think people with object relations problems need concrete reminders of things they need to remember.  H has 10 times more photos in our house of his children than of me or the two of us.

[Notwendy]

The chameleon aspect irritates me too. I don't like to see it. But there were issues in my marriage that to me were more concerning, such as how I was being spoken to. My H and I don't have overlapping friend groups so much of this doesn't happen around me.

With politics being so divisive and polarized, in many situations the conversations get hostile if someone doesn't agree. Sometimes it just isn't worth it and it seems easier to just not rock the boat when politics are being discussed.

I may not be fond of a certain genre of music, but I am interested in what my kids are listening to, and sometimes when I do listen to it, I find I like some of the songs and so I end up listening to them sometimes. I've gone to football games with my kids even though it isn't my thing. I do it not to be a chameleon but to be part of their world. Even if your H isn't going about this in the best way, he does care about his kids and wants to keep a relationship with them. I know this bothers you since you don't see him putting in the same effort with you, but this is the nature of BPD.

Once my H was giving me the ST in the car. He was being especially contemptuous. We stopped for gas and a female co-worker of his was there getting gas too. He immediately put on the charm, the Mask with her and they were smiling and chatting. He then got back in the car with me and went back to his Mr. Hyde. I felt hurt at the time. I know there wasn't anything romantic going on with them, or any attempt on his part, he was just being his usual public charming self to her and not to me. I know this hurts. I used to wish I got some of that. But now it doesn't- I don't want the fake stuff and it's all fake to me now. As odd as it is, I get the real stuff.

When someone puts on the mask, they fear that they would not be accepted for who they are, but they want to be. It takes a lot of emotional energy to put that mask on. This isn't about you, it's about being insecure. For me, it took letting go of the annoying things, and focusing on the issues that concerned me the most- how he spoke to me and verbal abuse. When working towards change it helps to try to change one thing at a time, and choose the most troublesome one.

[formflier]

I know what personal, spiritual and political beliefs H holds.  It's clear when he is around people whose approval he craves that he can flip and deny his own values.  It's not simply being polite. 

H does not want to alienate those whose approval he needs.  For instance, I know H detests a certain musical band and yet his D loves them.  He spent part of the weekend in her company where he listened to a lot of this genre of music.

Now H listens to this genre.  He still says he detests it, but his listening to it is a concrete reminder of his daughter and his attachment (actually enmeshment) to her.   

So... .let's assume you are correct.

How does this analysis if musical choices help the relationship and help you?

Next... assume you are incorrect about the music.  How could that affect you and the relationship?

FF

[AskingWhy]

@notWendy.  Agreeing in order to keep the peace is one thing, but agreeing to gain approval or because one does not have an opinion of one's own is another thing.

My H agrees because he wants approval and he is not sure that he has an opinion of his own.

@FF, I know for certain that H does not like that music.  He is listening because his child likes it.  Again, it's not a matter of agreeing, but adopting the likes of someone he needs approval from, or because he is unsure of his own musical choices.

How it affects the RS?  It only confirms the lack of identity my H has.

[formflier]

@notWendy.  Agreeing in order to keep the peace is one thing, but agreeing to gain approval or because one does not have an opinion of one's own is another thing.

My H agrees because he wants approval and he is not sure that he has an opinion of his own.

@FF, I know for certain that H does not like that music.  He is listening because his child likes it.  Again, it's not a matter of agreeing, but adopting the likes of someone he needs approval from, or because he is unsure of his own musical choices.

How it affects the RS?  It only confirms the lack of identity my H has.

So... .if your hubby was asked would he say this is what he wants?  Asked another way, how do you know?

So... let's agree for sake of this discussion that he doesn't like the music.  Isn't that a good relationship skill to be able to pleasantly listen and be part of something you don't like, for the good of someone else/or the relationship?

What specifically could your pwBPD do/say regarding music that would gain your praise for the way he handled it?

FF

[AskingWhy]

So... .if your hubby was asked would he say this is what he wants?  Asked another way, how do you know?

So... let's agree for sake of this discussion that he doesn't like the music.  Isn't that a good relationship skill to be able to pleasantly listen and be part of something you don't like, for the good of someone else/or the relationship?

What specifically could your pwBPD do/say regarding music that would gain your praise for the way he handled it?

FF

H is not agreeing just to get along or to keep the peace.  Thanks to the smitten, ingratiating look on H's face in the presence of his children, he is craving their approval and also because he assumes the beliefs of anyone he is around on whom his identity depends. 

I think it speaks volumes about a man who can't defend his own positions in the face of others, but in BPDs, they don't have opinions to defend (lack of identity) and they "absorb" the opinions of others.

[formflier]

H is not agreeing just to get along or to keep the peace.  Thanks to the smitten, ingratiating look on H's face in the presence of his children, he is craving their approval and also because he assumes the beliefs of anyone he is around on whom his identity depends.  

I think it speaks volumes about a man who can't defend his own positions in the face of others, but in BPDs, they don't have opinions to defend (lack of identity) and they "absorb" the opinions of others.

Do you think he "feels" how you feel about him in these moments?

It certainly speaks volumes to us on these boards, I would guess it speaks volumes to him as well.  

How do you think that affects your relationship?

FF

[AskingWhy]

Do you think he "feels" how you feel about him in these moments?

It certainly speaks volumes to us on these boards, I would guess it speaks volumes to him as well.  

How do you think that affects your relationship?

FF

Due to splitting, H is not even aware of my presence in the room.  H is totally focused on his children and their guests, again ingratiating himself to his children and, by extension, their friends.   H deeply desires the approval of his children.  He was never an effective parent, and his children saw him as a weak pushover whom they could manipulate.

In retrospect, H has always been this way.  When we were dating, and his children were sitting on his lap (H was a non-custodial father and had intermittent visitation at the whim of his uNPD X W), H would look at me as though through me--as if I did not exist.

[formflier]

Due to splitting, H is not even aware of my presence in the room. 

So... why even be there?  IF there is nothing that you or he can do about it... and he doesn't even know you are there?

Or... was it uncomfortable to answer the question about what your husband "feels" from you?

FF

[AskingWhy]

So... why even be there?  IF there is nothing that you or he can do about it... and he doesn't even know you are there?

Or... was it uncomfortable to answer the question about what your husband "feels" from you?

FF

FF, at family meals, it would be odd for me to be absent.  My H is not reallly interested in "my" feelings as I an only an object to him.  What is important to him is his children's approval.  H "feels" my resentment and has name-called me as jealous.

There is a phenomenon with boundary issues in those with PDs in which children are elevated to spouse-like status over the spouse.

[Harley Quinn]

Hi AskingWhy,

I've just read your thread, although I don't know your full posting history and I have a couple of questions for you.

What are your feelings about the relationship overall?  Would you say that you are feeling resentment in a general way towards your husband right now, or just over this particular issue that you have with his behaviour around others?  I'm wondering how much this spills over into other things between you.

You've shared that he feels your resentment, and has accused you of being jealous.  Is it possible there is a grain of truth in that?  That's a hard thing to admit to oneself (I have had to do so before now) but maybe if that is the case you can also accept that it's OK to feel that way and perhaps allow yourself to soften in your response to the behaviour.  

These behaviours are learned and are coming from a lack of skills to conduct an emotionally mature relationship.  Knowing that, what's your stance on ways to move forwards towards a place where you can feel less troubled by something that is not going to change, certainly unless he is in ongoing treatment for some time?

Love and light x  

[AskingWhy]

Hi AskingWhy,

I've just read your thread, although I don't know your full posting history and I have a couple of questions for you.

What are your feelings about the relationship overall?  Would you say that you are feeling resentment in a general way towards your husband right now, or just over this particular issue that you have with his behaviour around others?  I'm wondering how much this spills over into other things between you.

You've shared that he feels your resentment, and has accused you of being jealous.  Is it possible there is a grain of truth in that?  That's a hard thing to admit to oneself (I have had to do so before now) but maybe if that is the case you can also accept that it's OK to feel that way and perhaps allow yourself to soften in your response to the behaviour.  

These behaviours are learned and are coming from a lack of skills to conduct an emotionally mature relationship.  Knowing that, what's your stance on ways to move forwards towards a place where you can feel less troubled by something that is not going to change, certainly unless he is in ongoing treatment for some time?

Love and light x  

Thank you for the reply, but before I respond to your question, I must ask some of my own.

Does your spouse or partner have children from a previous RS?  If so, how does the spouse treat you in regards to the children?    

Are you the treated as the priority in the marriage as a partner, or are the children (minor or adult) given priority over the spouse?

It's a very common dynamic in remarried couples in which one spouse has children that will actually favour the children over the spouse.  That is not healthy regardless of how one looks at it.  It's a common reason that remarried couples separate.   This can happen when both spouses have children, as well.   Those who have never experienced the triangulation that occurs in blended families cannot even remotely empathise with the complexity of emotions that ensue, and are quick to call the non parent "jealous."

That said, jealousy is not the issue.  I admit to being resentful.    

I mentioned earlier that due to boundary issues, pwBPD (and also NPDs) see children as extensions of themselves.  As the BPD spouse spoils himself to the neglect of the non, he also spoils the children to the neglect of the spouse.  

It is easy for outsiders who have not experienced the dysfunction of being in a second or third marriage to blame the non-parent.  Enmeshment is a common dynamic in BPD RSs.  Fs with daughters, M with sons and every other permutation.

The spouse who is "left out" has a full right to feel resentment.  A junior member of the family has usurped the place of spouse in the marriage.  This is a common dynamic.  Please do not mistake resentment for jealousy.  The spouse alleging jealousy is the one unwilling to acknowledge the unhealthy enmeshment with his own child.

That said, when a husband has a mistress, does the wife feel resentment or jealousy?  

Jealousy is inappropriate envy (having something someone else has a right to), and that resentment is a form of indignation.  I have no reason to feel "jealous" when my husband accords affection, gifts and attention that rightfully belong to a spouse.   A spouse, on the other hand, has every right to feel resentful.  

There is a thread active here where a spouse inferred $exual feelings toward a daughter or SD.  Does that mean the child's mother is jealous?  The woman has a right to feel angry and resentful.

My overall attitude to the RS is simply to back off and not care about my H any longer.  This means he is on his own emotionally (since he gets his validation from his children) and I don't lift a finger to his benefit apart from share his home, cook his meals, pay a portion of the bills and be a $exual outlet for him.

[Harley Quinn]

My overall attitude to the RS is simply to back off and not care about my H any longer.  This means he is on his own emotionally (since he gets his validation from his children) and I don't lift a finger to his benefit apart from share his home, cook his meals, pay a portion of the bills and be a $exual outlet for him.

Thanks for answering this.  Is that an arrangement you can be content with long term?  It sounds hard. 

Love and light x   

[Panda39]

Thank you for the reply, but before I respond to your question, I must ask some of my own.

Does your spouse or partner have children from a previous RS?  If so, how does the spouse treat you in regards to the children?    

Are you the treated as the priority in the marriage as a partner, or are the children (minor or adult) given priority over the spouse?

It's a very common dynamic in remarried couples in which one spouse has children that will actually favour the children over the spouse.  That is not healthy regardless of how one looks at it.  It's a common reason that remarried couples separate.   This can happen when both spouses have children, as well.   Those who have never experienced the triangulation that occurs in blended families cannot even remotely empathise with the complexity of emotions that ensue, and are quick to call the non parent "jealous."

That said, jealousy is not the issue.  I admit to being resentful.    

I'm in a blended relationship but not with someone with BPD (he has an uBPDxw) so there are likely complications in your relationship that I don't face in mine.  Some blended families may have the dynamic you mention above, particularly in the beginning when everyone is getting to know each other and establish their roles within the new family arrangement, but if this type of dysfunction continues then yes there is a problem.  Resentment would be natural.

Have you ever discussed with your Husband the imbalance you feel regarding your relationship with him and his relationship with his kids?  That you are feeling excluded sometimes, and you'd like to do things a different way.

I say that "you'd like to do things a different way" because the only people we can truly control are ourselves.  You may have a talk with your husband and he might be willing to make some changes or he might not.  If not what are some things that you might be able to change to make the situation more tolerable for yourself?

I mentioned earlier that due to boundary issues, pwBPD (and also NPDs) see children as extensions of themselves.  As the BPD spouse spoils himself to the neglect of the non, he also spoils the children to the neglect of the spouse.

Does your spouse ever spoil you and neglect the children?  I ask because what you are describing above could also be "splitting" it's related to black and white thinking you're all bad so the kids are all good or vice versa.

Splitting

Splitting refers to a primitive defense mechanism characterized by a polarization of good feelings and bad feelings, of love and hate, of attachment and rejection. We often talk of being painted black or painted white by our pwBPD.

Link to more on Splitting https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=62033.0

It is easy for outsiders who have not experienced the dysfunction of being in a second or third marriage to blame the non-parent.  Enmeshment is a common dynamic in BPD RSs.  Fs with daughters, M with sons and every other permutation.

I'm sorry you are feeling blamed for the dysfunction in your family, that can't feel good.  Everyone in any family blended or not, First Marriage or Fifth, all have their own part to play in the family as a whole.  What I see is you coming here trying to problem solve, talk it through, and get feedback all of which are positives.  

As far as resentment and jealousy go, to me they are just semantics, what they both translate to is unhappiness, and I'm sorry you are so unhappy  

My overall attitude to the RS is simply to back off and not care about my H any longer.  This means he is on his own emotionally (since he gets his validation from his children) and I don't lift a finger to his benefit apart from share his home, cook his meals, pay a portion of the bills and be a $exual outlet for him.

You're hurt, so you are hurting him, then he runs to his kids and hurts you again... .and around and around you all go.

Which leads us back to Harley Quinn's previous question, is the above arrangement something you can be content with?

Panda39

[Notwendy]

The spouse who is "left out" has a full right to feel resentment.

A spouse, on the other hand, has every right to feel resentful.


Yes, you have every right to feel resentful. It is certainly understandable.

Your plan though- to not care and just cook, clean and be the sexual outlet - will that help with your feelings of resentment?

[AskingWhy]

I say that "you'd like to do things a different way" because the only people we can truly control are ourselves.  You may have a talk with your husband and he might be willing to make some changes or he might not.  If not what are some things that you might be able to change to make the situation more tolerable for yourself?

Does your spouse ever spoil you and neglect the children?  I ask because what you are describing above could also be "splitting" it's related to black and white thinking you're all bad so the kids are all good or vice versa.

Panda39

Panda, Harley and Wendy,  thank you for the responses.

My husband will always allege jealousy when he favors a child over me.  Again, this is a very common dynamic in blended families.

I use again the comparison of a mistress.  A man should accord his affections to his wife first and foremost, and any wife cheated on has a right to feel resentful and slighted.   A wife has a right to his foremost affections.  This is not to say a man cannot love his children, but when a man is sappy and lovey to his children, and has only name-calling, bullying and the wife must live under the constant threat of divorce, yes, children become an issue.  

H showers his children with expensive gifts, new cars and other things(such as paying for DUI fines, lawyers and rehab) while I get cheap trinkets.  When I protest, I become the focus of H's BPD/NPD projected rage.  His children play him like a violin and use the same tactics H uses on me:  withholding affection, silent treatment in order to get him to open his wallet.  What H is really angry about is his X W's adultery and leaving him so she could marry her lover while taking the children across the country.

Living this way is my choice for the moment.  I may decide at any time to leave the RS.  Most of the the time I just watch the whole situation implode as his children are all in the BPD and NPD spectrum.  I have seen a number of things in their pasts indicating this:  suicide attempts, expulsion from the military, shoplifting conviction, drug and alcohol addiction, frequent car accidents.

[Notwendy]

He can call it jealousy - but you know your feelings. He doesn't define your feelings. The feeling you describe is resentment- no matter what he calls it.

This is also a common dynamic in dysfunctional relationships- one spouse defines the other's feelings and the other spouse seems to buy into it. It's a lack of boundaries.

I used to do this until one day, it just didn't make sense. My H accused me of being rude to his family. I had just spent time on the phone with his sister deciding on a gift for his mother. This accusation made no sense in context of what just happened. He can think I am rude to them but that thinking doesn't change reality. I am not rude to them no matter what he says.

Can I make a suggestion? Your H seems to favor his children over you. Whether this is common or not ( and I don't argue that point)- it is how you feel and what you observe. He can call it whatever- but what he says doesn't define your feelings. You know what they are. The problem is- you can't make someone see it how you see it- and talking to him doesn't seem to work. He explains it off as jealousy, and continues to do what he is doing.

What if you just stopped saying anything about this behavior to him ( it doesn't seem to work to get him to change ) and removed yourself from his family drama as much as is possible. As a couple, some of it probably isn't possible to do separate- but let him do his thing and you do things that make you content. If he spends less on gifts for you ,then he does- but the gifts don't determine your self worth- you do. I hope you can enjoy yourself some in this relationship- meet a friend for lunch if he's hanging with his buddies or his kids, or do something else. I think you know he is who he is, and so you can pursue your own interests in this relationship too.

[formflier]

I'm "voluntarily estranged" from my wife's FOO. 

Sort of like Notwendy realized one day that there were two completely different worlds... .same happened for me.

An example of a light bulb moment.  I'm 100% disabled, my wife's FOO told me I was going to move a piano, had a quite detailed plan.  It all centered around "saving" my SIL from her latest BPDish thing (she is much worse than my wife)

Like you AskingWhy, I could explain all the connections and reasons and it was horrible to watch and sometimes be part of what they "do" in that family.  And I kept being a part of it... my choice, although at the time I would have said "I have to... ."

Well... .when I said I couldn't move a piano and I started to try to explain why... .it was like a nuke went off.

"If you wanted to you could... ."  Really... .like you would say to a guy in a wheel chair... "if you wanted to you could walk... "

Well for the next long time my wife, her Mom and her Dad all yelled at each other... screaming is a better word.  I went to another room in the house (in laws house).

Well... that and a few other things led me to the point of saying (and doing) that I would do my thing.  I haven't spoken a word to her parents in about 2 years.  There have been a couple texts. 

My  wife carries on her relationship with them (I assume... .I'm out of it).  Again... boundaries.  I don't define who others choose and I don't let others make me or prevent me from having relationships I want.

AskingWhy... .your life seems very hard.  I would be resentful as well.  I don't understand why you keep "participating" in something that you say is "imploding"

What if you let them go do their stuff.  Perhaps you and hubby can still go on dates... alone.  (I do with my wife... .I assume she goes to dinner with her parents from time to time)

I have to imagine that you  would feel better with less contact with such horrible people.  I say this because my life is DRAMATICALLY better with less DRAMA in it. 

Thoughts?

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I’m in agreement with formflier and Notwendy and if I were in your shoes, I’d separate myself as much as possible from any interaction with your husband’s children. They don’t like you and you don’t like them, so why endure being around them? Certainly you could do something you enjoy when they’re around.

I hear you on the weird position stepparents are often in as I dated a very nice guy with a capital C crazy young daughter. I tried to be friends with her, not a mom surrogate, but just treated her respectfully and kindly. All sorts of hell broke loose, none of which was my doing. Without going into too much detail, I ended up contacting her therapist, her stepfather, starting therapy of my own, refusing to babysit her while my boyfriend went out of town, etc.

Her behavior frankly scared the daylights out of me and her stepfather had seen equally troubling behavior and he was a former law enforcement officer. Once, in the middle of the night, he confronted her with a butcher knife in her hands as he walked through the hallway rocking his newborn to sleep. He told me that she was the “scariest kid” he’d ever run into.

Unfortunately my boyfriend couldn’t see the deviant behavior that apparently many other people observed. (Some other parents forbid their children to play with her.) Instead, he thought all her problems stemmed from the divorce and though it was his wife’s initiative (affair with her coworker), he felt tremendously guilty for not keeping the marriage together and as a result, over indulged his daughter to excess.

I think he thought all could be remedied if he could get me to play the mom role and once again have an intact family. Just the fact that I was too skittish to do that, resulted in major conflicts between us, which the daughter fueled.

I kept my distance out of self preservation and over time, we went our separate ways. I ran into him years later and he did a mea culpa and told me that everything I had predicted about his daughter had unfortunately come to pass and he wished he could have heard me and taken my advice at the time.

I think, like your husband, he was unable to hear anything possibly critical about his daughter because he was too wrapped up I guilt about his failed marriage. Things had to play out as they did with suicide attempts and lots of drama and only then could he reassess how he viewed things.

[Notwendy]

BPD also tends to affect the most intimate relationships. My BPD mother is more generous to others than she is to me. She hasn't given me a gift in decades but gives nice things to other people. The value of the gift seems to be the opposite of the relationship- she is overly generous with the people she knows the least.

What is a gift? It is a no strings attached, given from the heart out of thinking about the person. In this context, I would say she doesn't give gifts, but gives things so that people will like her, or a form of control in some cases. Thinking about gifts in this way may make you want them less.

You know what your H is doing when he is generous with his children- it's a form of wanting them to like him and or feel obligated to him. When he agrees with his buddies, he is trying to make them like him.

A gift from him to you doesn't determine your self worth. His behavior is more about him than you. I tried the housekeeper/cook with benefit arrangement and it emotionally decreased my self esteem in my marriage. I had to find my own self worth and it came from pursuing my own interests. If my H wants to spend the day with his hobbies- fine, I have things to do too. I stopped making this about me. "he doesn't spend time with me" and changed to "I have things to do today".  

[AskingWhy]

Wendy, FF, Cat and Panda, my life is on hold for a number of reasons.  I accept what is before me.  I know it's not optimal or what I would choose for myself, and real divorce is always an option--in my own mind.

H threatens divorce every time he dysregulates and splits me black.  In that moment, he hates me and wants me out of his life.  Very borderline but painful nonetheless.  I am now challenging his divorce threats.  When he is starting down the path of splitting me black, I tell him, "Why not just skip the drama and tell me you want a divorce?"  He is perplexed and he does not know how to respond.  He has a stunned look on his face.  I imagine he wants me to break down and cry and beg him to stay (as I had done previously at great cost to my psyche and health), for me to apologize for whatever transgression he has accused me of, and to promise him I would do what he wanted.

No.  Not anymore.  I noticed these threats have been going on for at least the last eight years of a twenty year marriage.  No sign of his serving me papers, although he may totally devalue me and do so at any point.

I have stepped back from tendering any advice to his children, who have all suffered from poor life choices and are in some spectrum of NPD or BPD (drugs and alcohol, suicide attempts, erratic relationships and promiscuity, job problems and homelessness.)  One child was diagnosed with a chronic illness that I have knowledge of but I won't offer on how to manage it.  It's not my problem.  Even if I offer helpful advice, sooner or later I will be split black by them.  It does not help that H confides our marital difficulties to his children, triangulating and enmeshing them in an unhealthy way.  Some time ago, after H confided about an argument he had with me, one of the children spoke to me and said I was abusing their father.  I have backed off all the way.  When the next suicide attempt comes our way, or the 2 a.m. crying jags waking H and me in the middle of sleep, I will let H handle it.  Not my monkey, not my zoo.

Cat, everything I observed in his children is coming to pass, too.  Arrest for shoplifting, drugs, divorce from spouses, jail time, more rehab.   What you describe in the man you dated with the crazy D is very common when divorced dads date.  They give all of their power to their children who are all to happy to play the wife or girlfriend against their father.  The dynamic becomes and Electra complex on steroids.

Now that grandchildren are in the picture, my H's children can do no wrong.  

H is still guilty over his X E cheating on him, divorcing him and marrying her lover, and taking all the children to live across the country.  H also projects his rage at her onto me.  

Let's just say again, I have ceased to care about H and his children.  I have been hurt too many times and have developed a very thick skin.  I have my own interests and set of friends, so H does not dictate my world.  It was not always that way.  When H threatened divorce, I would be devastated and crushed for days, unable to work or even think straight.  Now, I take it with a grain of salt. My self esteem had returned after hard work and looking into myself.  If he files for divorce, I am ready.  I know I am strong and can survive without him.  It's a quite sense of strength I now have.