What are the magic words for a "good" breakup or divorce?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I'm currently NC with my uBPDh, but will need to make a decision, and I'm leaning toward breakup and divorce. He is so good at manipulating me to get me back involved, that I'm afraid when I do talk to him, my plan will backfire.

A few things are clear to me::
1) no blaming
2) be firm and don't give reasons for breakup
3) do not engage other than to say that it wasn't healthy and it's over

However, it's not quite that easy because we are married. My kids and I are on his health plan, but once the divorce goes through we can all go on mine (much more expensive; he pays nothing). Once I am being taxed as a single head of household though, the savings will almost pay for the difference in health care premiums.

He is terrified of lawyers, yet will be so suspicious of me that he will probably hire one.

We live and work six hours away from each other by car. As it stands, we have no plans to see each other again. I'm not sure how we will schedule our divorce negotiation meetings. I'm afraid of discussing it with him. The pain of divorce will make staying with him look safer and easier. I realize I'm not strong enough yet to have a discussion with him, but maybe in the meantime it would help to have some phrases that have worked for you.

[SweetCharlotte]

I'm currently NC with my uBPDh, but will need to make a decision, and I'm leaning toward breakup and divorce. He is so good at manipulating me to get me back involved, that I'm afraid when I do talk to him, my plan will backfire.

A few things are clear to me::
1) no blaming
2) be firm and don't give reasons for breakup
3) do not engage other than to say that it wasn't healthy and it's over

However, it's not quite that easy because we are married. My kids and I are on his health plan, but once the divorce goes through we can all go on mine (much more expensive; he pays nothing). Once I am being taxed as a single head of household though, the savings will almost pay for the difference in health care premiums.

He is terrified of lawyers, yet will be so suspicious of me that he will probably hire one.

We live and work six hours away from each other by car. As it stands, we have no plans to see each other again. I'm not sure how we will schedule our divorce negotiation meetings. I'm afraid of discussing it with him. The pain of divorce will make staying with him look safer and easier. I realize I'm not strong enough yet to have a discussion with him, but maybe in the meantime it would help to have some phrases that have worked for you.

[formflier]

with pwBPD... .it's important to be pragmatic.

About the relationship and about what works for YOUR life.

You already live hours away and get financial benefits from being on his plan, he is NC... .so I'm wondering how your life improves by stirring the pot.  (there very well could be many valid reasons)

I get the vibe you want a change in the relationship.  Am I correct in "hearing"/"feeling" that you are tentative about the "breakup"?

There is another member on here that stuck with a relationship for a long time and then in a "push" phase (where partner was pushing her away) she kinda let the relationship fade away.  (didn't rescue it).

I wish I was more familiar with your story, but my immediate judgment is to let the "push" phase (NC) continue and live your life.  (resist the draw to save or change the relationship)

I'll see if I can send that member this way and certainly if there are reasons that work for you to end or change the relationship, let's work through those.

Oh... and to answer your question.  There are no magic words.  Succinct is best.  You have the gist of it. 

FF

[babyducks]

Hi SweetCharlotte,

I realize I'm not strong enough yet to have a discussion with him, but maybe in the meantime it would help to have some phrases that have worked for you.

I think it is a good realization that you are not strong enough to engage in a discussion with him.   That's a good insight.    It's perfectly okay to pick a time off in the future when you are better able to have the discussion.   

For that reason I would suggest practicing phrases that stop conversations.   practice with a friend or a therapist... .some one you trust... .

• I'm not able to have this conversation today.   Let's talk about it next week.

• I would like to get back to you on that.

• this isn't really anything I want to discuss
• I think I have spent all the energy I can right now.

• I believe it is time to stop this conversation.

• We've spent enough time on this issue, let's table it for now

I'd suggest that once you feel confident that you can stop a conversation that is running away with you... .you can feel more confident getting your message across.

what do you think?

'ducks

[Cat Familiar]

Great suggestions, ducks!  I'm gonna memorize that list! 

Having been through a divorce, I don't know that there are "magic words" to make it easier. But what I would recommend is getting very clear with what you want and being able to express that directly and unambiguously.

[love4meNOTu]

HI sweet charlotte... sorry about the lower case, I'm typing from my phone.

In my case, my exhwBPD was screaming about how much he hated me, and frightened me so much I called the police. The next day I got an attorney and filed for divorce.

After that tho, I was unemotional as much as humanly possible. The goal was to get him out of the house and away from my children. After he moved out he quickly found another woman and that was when things really turned around for me, because he was invested elsewhere. All you can do it hope they think it is their idea to divorce, and wait just long enough for them to find what they need from someone else.

Thinking of you.

[SweetCharlotte]

• I'm not able to have this conversation today.   Let's talk about it next week.

• I would like to get back to you on that.

• this isn't really anything I want to discuss
• I think I have spent all the energy I can right now.

• I believe it is time to stop this conversation.

• We've spent enough time on this issue, let's table it for now

Thanks, baby ducks, I'm printing that out now. Thanks also to formflier, Cat Familiar, and love4meNOTu, for attitudinal prepping. I'm continuing NC. He phones me once a day on my cell and land line. I just don't miss him this time. Life without a chaotic relationship is easier. There are no conditions or demands I could place on our reconciliation that I feel he would be able to honor. Simply expressing any conditions would be taken by him as an invitation to argue. And I am done.

[babyducks]

Hi Sweet Charlotte

So he calls once a day, either on the cell phone or the land line.    It sounds like you don't pick up.

If you could say anything,   anything you want to him,  what would it be?    Would it help to practice with us?

[formflier]

  I just don't miss him this time. Life without a chaotic relationship is easier.

I think this is your truth.  How long have you felt this way? 

FF

[SweetCharlotte]

formflier,

I started to feel that I no longer missed him (like I used to) soon after he pushed me away, ten days ago. At first I was angry that he had "done it again," cutting me out of his life. Then I read on this board, someone used the expression "chaotic relationship," and it gave me a moment of crystal clarity. That is what we have been having, and my daughter and I have been suffering because of it. He ended it, and I don't need to let it start up again.

My D15 (whom I had on my own before this marriage) is curious about what's going on, and she looked over my shoulder and saw one of his "I love you" texts from today. She commented that he has a strange way of showing it. She agreed that I shouldn't answer him or consent to see him again unless he offers to get psychological help.

For now I feel I'm better off not speaking to him at all, so yes, baby ducks, when he calls I don't pick up. Nor am I accepting his requests to reconnect on Facebook, Find My Friends, Family Sharing, etc. If I express a wish or demand that he go to therapy, he will still take it as an opening to start arguing and blaming. I should keep up the NC, and if HE offers to get help, I'll consider dialoguing with him.

[formflier]

10 days... .that's pretty fresh.   

You have a very wise daughter... .

I'm also impressed that you can step back and realize that "it's different this time".  (note... he is likely realizing that too... ) 

This is good in that you won't repeat patterns of the past.

You seem open to a different relationship with him, if he is different... if he gets help. 

Telling you this will or won't work would be speculative.  However, as a group there are some tried and true things.  That he is reaching out to you is a good thing.


Getting into therapy

Read and share your thoughts. 

 

FF

[AskingWhy]

If it has not been mentioned, please get yourself a copy of Billy Eddy's book, "Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder."  It is an indispensable guide for anyone leaving a BPD RS.  You can buy a copy online, or buy a digital copy.

Mr. Eddy is both a family law attorney as well as a social worker, and he knows the games BPDs play in the court system, and how they can charm judges while making the non look like the crazy one.

Mr. Eddy also does phone consultations for a fee.

[Red5]

... .it gave me a moment of crystal clarity... .
 
My D15 (whom I had on my own before this marriage) is curious about what's going on, and she looked over my shoulder and saw one of his "I love you" texts from today. She commented that he has a strange way of showing it.

I remember... .being "lost in it"... .my relationship / marriage to my udx BPD wife... .I tell you people know, they can tell when you are "off the reservation" about something... .and then to have an outsider have a glimpse, for just a moment, at what's really going on... .and then to hear something like that... .yes, crystal clarity !

My co-worker has told me many times... .as I have confided in him, as we spend hours and hours together... .he said to me... ."I could not do what you do"... .wow ; (

What do people see in me, its not happiness (?), .is it (?)... .and then to have someone get just a short glimpse "inside"... .and then to see their immediate and unbiased reaction... .wow,

Hang in there SweetCharlotte!

Kind regards, Red5

[allienoah]

I would like to thank sweetcharlotte and everyone else on this thread. It came at a perfect time for me. Today I was flat out told by my ubfwBPD that he was going to keep pushing me and pushing me until I finally decided to walk away. This is due to the fact that I haven't been able to put my house on the market and look for homes with him. I am terrified to live with him and honestly I keep hedging around that truth. He swears his behavior will change once we live together, as this financial albatross is what is making him so horrible. I don't believe that. He also says being able to come home to me every night is all he really wants. I also don't believe that. He wants more control in my opinion.
When you related what your daughter said-smart girl!-I remember my daughter and son saying pretty much the same thing.
I have been tacitly pulling away. I do my own thing-and pay a price for it!-but I am living. He is jealous of that as he has to work all the time. Apparently every waking minute I have should be spent trying to get him out of HIS problems.
Relationships should NOT be this chaotic, stressful, etc.
I would be lying to say that I don't miss the good times, the spontaneity and the closeness I felt with him. I also know it sounds selfish that I am less into this relationship as the hard times came. I can't help but resent him for making very poor decisions, and expecting me to make a grand gesture to get him out of it.

[babyducks]

Hi SC,

For now I feel I'm better off not speaking to him at all, so yes, baby ducks, when he calls I don't pick up. Nor am I accepting his requests to reconnect on Facebook, Find My Friends, Family Sharing, etc. If I express a wish or demand that he go to therapy, he will still take it as an opening to start arguing and blaming. I should keep up the NC, and if HE offers to get help, I'll consider dialoguing with him.

I understand how those circular arguments,   those cycles of arguing and blaming can be so damaging and so exhausting.      I had never experienced anything like that before my relationship,  didn't know what 'projection' was, didn't understand how we continually had these arguments that were about nothing that I always lost.

Once I came here and started to learn that people with BPD (or the traits of the illness) believe that how they feel is caused by external events/people.   and also believe that controlling/changing those external events/people is the way for them to feel better.

I absolutely understand taking some time to think and consider options.   my concern, however is, if you make your decision contigent on his behavior or his decision, you are giving him complete decision making power in the relationship.    you are basically allowing him to drive the boat, without any input from you.   Please note... .I am not saying talk to him, or tell him he must be in therapy.    I am saying in a general way that you can take back some of your own personal power to make determinations about what goes on in your life.

right now you are deadlocked.   regardless of which way things progress,  it seems somewhat unlikely that you can continue NC forever.   

can I ask... .have you tried some of the communication skills and tools from this site? 

'ducks

[SweetCharlotte]

Hi SC,

I understand how those circular arguments,   those cycles of arguing and blaming can be so damaging and so exhausting.      I had never experienced anything like that before my relationship,  didn't know what 'projection' was, didn't understand how we continually had these arguments that were about nothing that I always lost.

Once I came here and started to learn that people with BPD (or the traits of the illness) believe that how they feel is caused by external events/people.   and also believe that controlling/changing those external events/people is the way for them to feel better.

I absolutely understand taking some time to think and consider options.   my concern, however is, if you make your decision contigent on his behavior or his decision, you are giving him complete decision making power in the relationship.    you are basically allowing him to drive the boat, without any input from you.   Please note... .I am not saying talk to him, or tell him he must be in therapy.    I am saying in a general way that you can take back some of your own personal power to make determinations about what goes on in your life.

right now you are deadlocked.   regardless of which way things progress,  it seems somewhat unlikely that you can continue NC forever.   

can I ask... .have you tried some of the communication skills and tools from this site? 

'ducks

That is a spot-on description of our relationship, 'ducks. I take the blame for everything that goes wrong in his life. Now that he is in late middle age, with health problems and at the top of his salary level (which in today's economy means that the employer is motivated to get rid of him), yet he still has not paid off substantial debts from his reckless younger days (before we got together), he often feels out of control and persecuted. Plus even if I am being sweeter than sweet, there's always my D15 who knows how to deliver a world of hurt.

Yes, I have been on this site for years, and am thoroughly versed in methods. However, lately, even when using them, I found myself getting pushed away with increasing frequency, which I attribute to his worsening age-related problems above. I understand what you say about not letting him steer the boat. But what can I do other than remain in this holding pattern of NC until I feel certain enough to start filing for divorce or he offers to change? —which I don't think he can do without therapy, and he hates therapists and counselors. The very idea that something could be wrong with him is terrifying and intolerable to him—he also thinks that he would lose his job if he went into psychological treatment of any kind, which worries me about what exactly is inside of that festering psyche of his.

[babyducks]

Hi SC,

But what can I do other than remain in this holding pattern of NC until I feel certain enough to start filing for divorce or he offers to change? —which I don't think he can do without therapy, and he hates therapists and counselors.

I certainly understand your point.   What you are saying makes sense.    I would encourage you to dig deeper into this though.    If I understand what you are telling me correctly (and I might not)  you and he are deadlocked at the extreme ends of an argument.

Therapy.    So.   My Ex was diagnosed Bipolar 1 comorbid with 'another cluster B' illness, most likely BPD.   She was compliant with medication, regular with therapy, committed to managing the Bipolar, less comfortable with the 'other cluster B' illness.    After 7 years in therapy she was considered well managed and self aware even while she struggled with epsiodes of mania which the medication only partially controlled.    For her to be at that level of stability required a mental health team helping both her and I.   Usually around 4 people.

How do you think therapy would look if your H went?    The practical details are important.   would it be one hour a week?    five hours a week?    how much change is enough?    how long do you think it would take to make meaningful changes?  one year?    five?   more?

All of our situations are different.  everyone is someplace different on the spectrum.    For my EX, her dsyregulations were occurring once every three or four months.    that's what cured looked like for her.   they weren't gone.   her thinking was much the same.   she managed things better.    I have to say the level of effort that she, and to a lesser degree me, put in to keep her functioning was enormous.   how much work/effort are you willing to put in?

holding pattern of NC until certain.    that's an interesting way of putting it.    can I ask,  have you identified what certainity would feel like?  how would you know when you are there?   I'll say I am a little concerned about the NC.   In a moment of weakness, either yours or his,  what happens?   another argument?  another reconciliation?    normally the advice given here on this site is to recognize and work with our emotions so we can feel secure during and with contact.   Understanding that is a process.

I guess what I am saying is over on the right hand bar  is Step 5.  Take Inventory.   which talks about a careful list of priorities, fears, options, limitations, pros, cons and risks.  I would suggest you give that a try putting in as much detail as you can... .because it matters.

'ducks

[Cat Familiar]

Hi SweetCharlotte,
It’s been a couple of weeks since you’ve posted here. What’s the current status of your relationship?

Cat

[SweetCharlotte]

Thank you for asking, CatFam. It is approaching 4 weeks of impasse. I have not responded to his requests for a "chat." Nor do I text him or accept social media invitations to reconnect.

His requests for a chat are phrased with a "ball is in your court" attitude: I need to reassure him that I do not think that he poses a threat to my daughter or to myself ("We need to talk about your fears. I cannot see you until this issue is resolved.")

I only send him emails regarding a furniture delivery that I had been trying to set up since summer. He threw out his old furniture when I offered to buy him some new pieces, but the delivery fell through because the company contracts it out to an inept or corrupt delivery service. This worsened the stress on our r/s. He was blaming me for the foul-up and the inconvenience and anxiety this has caused him. I wanted this issue out of the way before I talk to him to avoid further scapegoating, but it is dragging on, even with a new company after obtaining a refund from the first company.

The stalemate continues because I am afraid to talk to him. I don't want things to go back the way they were. The accusations were getting unbearable; he cut off all contact with me twice in one month before this impasse. My D15 is already fed up and not speaking to him. Yet I don't want to say something final like, "it's over; let's plan the divorce." And I know there is no negotiating with him; he is 100% right and 100% mentally stable.

He has a flight reservation for the weekend after next to come here. Of course I don't want him in my home as it stands. I don't even want to pick him up at the airport. Also, if the furniture delivery hasn't happened yet, I don't want to talk to him even in a public place. I want that resolved first, and I've pretty much communicated that to him via email.

[Cat Familiar]

It's been four weeks without you communicating about anything other than the furniture delivery. You're concerned about talking with him because you don't want it to return to the way it was previously, and you're not ready to end the relationship. You realize that there's no negotiating with him--he thinks he's right all the time.

However, he's scheduled for a visit soon and you don't want him in your home. Nor do you want to pick him up at the airport. Your first priority is to get the furniture delivered and get that issue out of the way.

So what's next after the furniture gets delivered? Are you going to let him visit as scheduled? And if not, how do you imagine telling him that?

[formflier]

My gut tells me you are better to expand contact on your schedule... rather than on his.  Offer a chat or something about a specific subject (perhaps furniture does it), get a gameplan that works for you, then stick to it.

We know... .we know... that he will try to expand and bust boundaries.  The point of this exercise is if you are willing to uphold yours and let him do whatever it is he will do.

Think of this as "going to the gym" and doing a work out on your terms... not his.

Thoughts?

FF

[AskingWhy]

I am at the point where I am comfortable with the idea of divorce.  For many years, uBPD/uNPD H hurled divorce threats at me when he dysregulated, and I would be devastated.  He made his unhappiness all my fault (children unhappy with our marriage, my medical issues, my work issues, wanting my personal income at his disposal, etc.) and said he'd divorce me unless I capitulated.

Now I have heard those threats so many times that I am immune to them, and now my calm response is, "Ok.  You want a divorce.  Why don't you get the ball rolling."  I suspect he truly does not want leave me and the threats are just that--threats.

As they say, "Be careful of what you ask for."  I am at the point of almost filing myself.  I have looked into the legal issues on where I stand should we part separate ways.  At over twenty years of marriage, he stands to lose more than me.

That said, no contact may not be entirely possible, but at least you know when not to get roped back into the drama.  Be cordial but only on your terms.  Do not give in to badgering and coercion. 

As for blaming, it's a common one, as you know, of pwBPD.  Don't fall for it. My H blames me for just about anything that does not go well in his life.  I call it the "punching bag" syndrome. 

[babyducks]

Hi SweetCharlotte

His requests for a chat are phrased with a "ball is in your court" attitude: I need to reassure him that I do not think that he poses a threat to my daughter or to myself ("We need to talk about your fears. I cannot see you until this issue is resolved.")

The stalemate continues because I am afraid to talk to him. I don't want things to go back the way they were. The accusations were getting unbearable; ... .….Yet I don't want to say something final like, "it's over; let's plan the divorce." And I know there is no negotiating with him; he is 100% right and 100% mentally stable.

I picked up on these two pieces in what you wrote.    For me, as I read these; I can totally see why you would not want to engage under these conditions.  "We need to talk about your fears. I cannot see you until this issue is resolved."   is emotional blackmail at it's worst.    Deny what you feel and I will do this for you.    I would suggest reframing this.    Reframing this in a way that is more comfortable to you.    something like this:

We need to talk about your fears. I cannot see you until this issue is resolved.

You are free to do what you need to.    I want to concentrate on getting the furniture issue resolved first.   I won't discuss our relationship issues while that is going on.

Notice I changed 'your fears' to 'our relationship issues'.    It's a subtle push back against his rewriting your reality.   It's hard to push back against a pwBPD who is working with energy to control and manipulate his environment.    As we talked about upstream, pwBPD attempt to control and manage the people and places in their environment.    pwBPD often operate from an irrational belief that external events and people cause their feelings and the way to change how they feel is to change the events and people.   pwBPD have little or no belief that they are responsible for their feelings.     which is why when he gets upset about the furniture not arriving … it has to be your fault... .because then it becomes your responsibility to fix his upset.

I would suggest the way to reframe this is to continually, subtly, gently and calmly reframe comments so that they reflect your reality.     It's not 'your fears',  it's 'relationship issues'.    'I can not see you until this issue is resolved.'   (i.e.  fix this for me) can be reframed into 'It's probably a good idea for both of us to take some time to think of how we can improve the relationship'.      If you get back 'I don't have to change anything, this is all your fault'... .that can be reframed into 'I believe partnerships are 50/50 and we both contribute'.      I would recommend not getting into the mud or the fine details... .avoid the 'but you said XYZ kind of stuff'.    and then exit the conversation.     I think it's perfectly acceptable to do a hit and run... .two or three lines and then exit the conversation.   I actually think that's more productive for you.

what do you think?   

'ducks

[SweetCharlotte]

Very good ideas; thanks to everyone. I was away for a few days on a business trip, during which I relaxed a bit and texted back and forth with him about my location, things I was seeing and doing, etc. He is still waiting to rope me back in again, as though nothing ever happened.

Still no word on the furniture delivery. It's amazing how companies can now charge you hundreds for merchandise, then disappear while they try to make it "materialize." It's "don't call us; we'll call you" once they have your money. Online shopping must stir up anxiety and worse for many people with BPD and other issues. I read a tragic story about a young husband/father in my area who killed himself after losing thousands of $ when he purchased a family vacation through one of those e-commerce travel sites, then they missed one leg of their trip and lost the whole amount. He couldn't take it.

As long as he hasn't received the furniture, I'm not going to speak to him or see him. He's starting to realize, I think, that the ball is not in my court; it's in his. I have very little interest in continuing the relationship the way it was. My life is much more peaceful without having to deal with his daily phone calls, during which he would rake me over the coals for all sorts of reasons, including not paying attention to his rambling & random narratives. I am so done with that.

[SweetCharlotte]

I would suggest the way to reframe this is to continually, subtly, gently and calmly reframe comments so that they reflect your reality.     It's not 'your fears',  it's 'relationship issues'.    'I can not see you until this issue is resolved.'   (i.e.  fix this for me) can be reframed into 'It's probably a good idea for both of us to take some time to think of how we can improve the relationship'.      If you get back 'I don't have to change anything, this is all your fault'... .that can be reframed into 'I believe partnerships are 50/50 and we both contribute'.      I would recommend not getting into the mud or the fine details... .avoid the 'but you said XYZ kind of stuff'.    and then exit the conversation.     I think it's perfectly acceptable to do a hit and run... .two or three lines and then exit the conversation.   I actually think that's more productive for you.

Yes, 'ducks, I will keep this in mind. A good way not to get mired down in his detritus.

[formflier]

  I was away for a few days on a business trip, during which I relaxed a bit and texted back and forth with him about my location, things I was seeing and doing, etc.

How does this compare to when you were not on  business trip? 

FF

[SweetCharlotte]

FF,
It's easier to text about new things I'm seeing and doing. When I'm home, I text to keep in touch about what's happening on the domestic front (with my daughter) and at work. I am also more apt to text about feelings and to try to joke (which is how the whole breakup started). Half of his texts are usually "I'm so depressed," or "You should be more worried about D15." If I try to keep things light, I invariably get pulled down; he scolds or blames me (don't you care that I'm depressed?). Now he is grateful just to get a photo of me standing in front of some monument.

I'm not texting him now that I'm home again. Back to waiting for the furniture delivery.