Been carpooling with the wife, the potential bad and the actual good.

[Depression = 72% of members]

Haven't been on here sharing a lot lately.  I don't have a lot of moments to type  (Long commute and usually pass out when I put my S2 to bed), but I am here reading everyone's stories and thinking about my own relationship frequently.  

Things have been going pretty much the same.  My wife oscillates between hate for me and sad victim-hood about our "horrible relationship" where she looks for care and affection through sympathy.  But it is a weird paradox where I am the poison and the cure.  Anyway, that is another topic.

So... .our S2 started a new school (which has been great for him) and as a result he no longer rides with his Mom to daycare near where she works.  Because he is not riding she can no longer take the HOV lane to work.  Because of our long commute this has a huge effect on time.  She told me that she would like to carpool with me.  

Ugh... .dread.  But I say

"yes.  We will give it a shot."

She says... ."what does that mean? You don't want to ride with me do you.  You don't like me."

Me: Don't put negative words in my mouth and negative thoughts in my head by just declaring it.  I am more than willing to give it a shot, but If you are mad at me and call me names.  I'm not going to ride with you the next day.

Her: You always think the worst of me!

Me: Don't put negative words in my mouth and negative thoughts in my head by just declaring it please.

We rode together the next day.

-------

So that is how it started.  We have tried to ride together for three weeks (15 work days).   Have actually ridden together for 9 days.  More than 50%!  I think that is pretty good.  

There have been multiple moments to reinforce my boundaries, and some actually productive conversations.  And even some opportunities to teach/share alternatives to anger ( in regard to traffic and things we can't control) I will get into more detail when I have time.

I have been working on my boundaries, and my T thinks I am doing well.  We were actually talking about how I came to my boundaries and when I decided she had not crossed it, even if her behavior was on the edge.

When he asked me this, I just blurted out...
"well Really... .I have just started to really see the abnormality in her actions... .no... .I have finally admitted to myself how F#$#3d up her behavior was/is.  Instead of trying to understand why she is doing it... .or even worse, what I am doing to cause it,  I have just decided, I don't care about the origins.  It is not acceptable.  And i make it clear with zero anger.  Sometimes I can see she is doing the best she can, and she is yelling, but she is yelling a normal conversation (we both chuckle)and not ramping up further.  No name calling or threats or putting negative thoughts in my mouth.  I can accept that if she is communicating her need correctly verbally, even though there is some inappropriate bleed over over anger. Although I do address the angry voice at least once."  It has been working.

I have also begun to make clear that this is not sustainable.  She seems to have really heard me.

Here is a text she sent me this morning after I dropped her for work after an intense, but I thought good conversation.  I had said that I loved her, and if we couldn't make it work then we needed to try to find a way to be kind to each other as we figure out how to go our separate ways.  She was aghast as I have never even said the word divorce.  I made clear to her that this was not a threat and reminded her that she has threatened me.  I was just stating a clear thought about the reality of our situation.

Her text:

"I really want us to work. Don't give up on me or us. I don't want to be without you and it chilled me to the bone that you are already thinking about us not being together and raising S2 as a family. I don't want him to grow up like that and I know that we love each other enough to make this work."

(Yes... I see the FOG in there)

Keep in mind, she has threatened divorce, threatened infidelity, threatened to take away my son,  and abandoned us for days to stay at a hotel.

But on my end, as I tell my T,  I am happy,  I am not happy about my marriage, but in life, I am happy.  Things are good.  I can handle this if it goes south.  Her unhappiness does not drive me anymore.  I can't do anything about it.  All I can do is be me and make sure am not part of making it worse.

Anyway, more interesting conversations and stories from the commute when I get a moment.

[WileyCoyote]

Haven't been on here sharing a lot lately.  I don't have a lot of moments to type  (Long commute and usually pass out when I put my S2 to bed), but I am here reading everyone's stories and thinking about my own relationship frequently.  

Things have been going pretty much the same.  My wife oscillates between hate for me and sad victim-hood about our "horrible relationship" where she looks for care and affection through sympathy.  But it is a weird paradox where I am the poison and the cure.  Anyway, that is another topic.

So... .our S2 started a new school (which has been great for him) and as a result he no longer rides with his Mom to daycare near where she works.  Because he is not riding she can no longer take the HOV lane to work.  Because of our long commute this has a huge effect on time.  She told me that she would like to carpool with me.  

Ugh... .dread.  But I say

"yes.  We will give it a shot."

She says... ."what does that mean? You don't want to ride with me do you.  You don't like me."

Me: Don't put negative words in my mouth and negative thoughts in my head by just declaring it.  I am more than willing to give it a shot, but If you are mad at me and call me names.  I'm not going to ride with you the next day.

Her: You always think the worst of me!

Me: Don't put negative words in my mouth and negative thoughts in my head by just declaring it please.

We rode together the next day.

-------

So that is how it started.  We have tried to ride together for three weeks (15 work days).   Have actually ridden together for 9 days.  More than 50%!  I think that is pretty good.  

There have been multiple moments to reinforce my boundaries, and some actually productive conversations.  And even some opportunities to teach/share alternatives to anger ( in regard to traffic and things we can't control) I will get into more detail when I have time.

I have been working on my boundaries, and my T thinks I am doing well.  We were actually talking about how I came to my boundaries and when I decided she had not crossed it, even if her behavior was on the edge.

When he asked me this, I just blurted out...
"well Really... .I have just started to really see the abnormality in her actions... .no... .I have finally admitted to myself how F#$#3d up her behavior was/is.  Instead of trying to understand why she is doing it... .or even worse, what I am doing to cause it,  I have just decided, I don't care about the origins.  It is not acceptable.  And i make it clear with zero anger.  Sometimes I can see she is doing the best she can, and she is yelling, but she is yelling a normal conversation (we both chuckle)and not ramping up further.  No name calling or threats or putting negative thoughts in my mouth.  I can accept that if she is communicating her need correctly verbally, even though there is some inappropriate bleed over over anger. Although I do address the angry voice at least once."  It has been working.

I have also begun to make clear that this is not sustainable.  She seems to have really heard me.

Here is a text she sent me this morning after I dropped her for work after an intense, but I thought good conversation.  I had said that I loved her, and if we couldn't make it work then we needed to try to find a way to be kind to each other as we figure out how to go our separate ways.  She was aghast as I have never even said the word divorce.  I made clear to her that this was not a threat and reminded her that she has threatened me.  I was just stating a clear thought about the reality of our situation.

Her text:

"I really want us to work. Don't give up on me or us. I don't want to be without you and it chilled me to the bone that you are already thinking about us not being together and raising S2 as a family. I don't want him to grow up like that and I know that we love each other enough to make this work."

(Yes... I see the FOG in there)

Keep in mind, she has threatened divorce, threatened infidelity, threatened to take away my son,  and abandoned us for days to stay at a hotel.

But on my end, as I tell my T,  I am happy,  I am not happy about my marriage, but in life, I am happy.  Things are good.  I can handle this if it goes south.  Her unhappiness does not drive me anymore.  I can't do anything about it.  All I can do is be me and make sure am not part of making it worse.

Anyway, more interesting conversations and stories from the commute when I get a moment.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[WileyCoyote]

I'll share one of the good conversations.
Context:  My wife drives to work and I drive home.  So she is driving in this story.

There is a spot in our commute where an intersection gets blocked momentarily every day.  Every day we have to wait while the light is green for 5 seconds before they move out of the intersection.  And every day my wife talks about how stupid they are or what jerks they are.
and she says "Those people shouldn't do that.  They should keep the intersection clear."

I said to her. "Did you know that you say that and get irritated every morning?

Her: " Well they do it every morning.  They shouldn't do that."

Me:  "But they do it every morning.  So in reality, they SHOULD be doing that.  We should expect them to.  Is it irritating?  Yes. "

Her:  "hmm I guess that makes sense.  It is still irritating!"

Me:  "Yes it is,  but it doesn't have to be EXTREMELY irritating, if we expect that.  Life has a lot of things like that, where if we think it should be one way and are mad, we are missing out on how it actually IS"


Wisemind/DBT in the carpool lane? 

[RolandOfEld]

Hi WC, thanks for the update and glad to hear you're making progress, either towards finding a way towards staying with her or accepting a different decision.

I seem to be in the HOV lane to divorce, but its a road I am finally comfortable to take.

~ROE

[WileyCoyote]

Sorry to hear that ROE, but glad you are finding acceptance for yourself and the decisions you may have to make.
I'd say I am in a similar place.  I almost feel as though I am really in the conflicted/tolerating group and should be posting there, but I am also making an effort to better my own point of view and shed my FOO schema, which in turn has been bettering my relationship!     maybe not bettering enough to save the marriage, but only time will tell.

So to continue the metaphor... .  I'm in the HOV lane to personal betterment with an unwilling passenger who keeps pointing at the exit's to divorce.  I used to not see the exit's.  But now I see them,  and I acknowledge them when my wife points them out.  I'm not scared anymore, nor do I feel like a failure.  I'm good with who I am.  I have prepared myself for the possibility that my wife could grab the wheel and swerve off into divorce.  I will treat her with kindness and love regardless of where we end up.  I will not waiver from who I am because she can't control herself.

[once removed]

Ugh... .dread.  But I say

"yes.  We will give it a shot."

She says... ."what does that mean? You don't want to ride with me do you.  You don't like me."

even given pwBPD traits can be particularly sensitive to things like tone and body language, im not sure that was an unreasonable inference that she made 

i say this to help, the rest is all JADE.

Keep in mind, she has threatened divorce, threatened infidelity, threatened to take away my son,  and abandoned us for days to stay at a hotel.

all of this in mind, certainly.

im glad to hear the carpool is for the most part, going well. do you think theres an opportunity there? ways to make it fun, a bonding experience?

[WileyCoyote]

Once Removed.  I get what you are saying about the "we can give it a shot" comment. 

Buuuuuuuuuuuut.  really.  there was no tone.  Maybe even a smile... .like yeah we can do this... .we can give it a shot.  I refuse to police my language. It was the truth.  And she interpreted correctly.  I don't want to ride with her.  Good.  I'm glad she sees that.  She can ask me why.  I will tell her, and I did.    I draw the line at explaining my explanation.  .  I think it is fair to answer someones reasonable question about motivation.  I will give an answer at least once.  After that she needs to figure out ( or more realistically admit to herself)  why I am enforcing a boundary on her own.   At this point I just repeat myself like a mantra.  Like  "Talking to someone you love like that is unacceptable to me, stop or I will leave and we will have to talk later" 

As far as JADE.   I disagree.  When her behavior is unacceptable, I tell her.  Then I tell her again.  Then I leave.  In this convo I didn't have to leave.      I don't explain why it is unacceptable, I just tell her it is, and to stop.  If she can't stop, I leave.  In fact in this convo, stating "Don't do X" was effective.  She didn't like my explanation, but the spiraling stopped.

As far as bonding and closeness opportunities? well of course those opportunities are there.   They are there every day of our lives when we aren't in a car too.  I see them. 

 She has stated she had a fantasy that riding together would fix our relationship.  .  Well yeah, it has the potential, but when you yell at someone and berate them for not changing lanes when you told them to (ahem... .ordered) you are not leaving much room for mutual positive regard.   You can't have normal convo's when any deviation from the pwBPD's opinion is seen as an attack. 

Side Note:  Attempting to listen to High Conflict Couples on audio book together.    That has been interesting.   Yesterday were listening and they were talking about judgments (black and white thinking) and I had to stop short for a hard braking car. A normal occurrence on this highway in rush hour.    She exclaimed something like "geeesh!".  Then a few seconds passed and she laid into me about not asking her if she was ok... .that I needed to apologize for stopping so fast... .all the while the audio book was talking about what she was doing as she judged me and called me jerk.  Finally after I refused to apologize since I had not done anything. (I said this with zero anger), I had to fight a chuckle when she said " I can't listen to this.  It is pissing me off" and turned off the audiobook.

Best part is though, some of the book is making it in.  This morning she got mad at me and I had no idea why... .then I got this text.

"I should not have blown up at you this morning. I just felt that you were distant this morning and I felt self-conscious about it. It wasn't fair to either of us and it's not what I should have done in wanting to be close to you. I will do my best to be better."

 They had been talking about improper expression of desires.  For example... .if you want closeness, you ask for closeness.  You don't make a judgment and say the other person is an a$$ for not giving the closeness (you don't love me... .etc) and then expect them to understand that you love them and want to be close.

Anyway... .some of it made it in her head. 

[once removed]

I don't want to ride with her. 

so why not say this . thats the truth. if you wanted to ride with her, thered be no giving it a shot. surely, she can see that. with BPD traits, she will run with it.

As far as JADE.   I disagree.  When her behavior is unacceptable, I tell her. 

okay. nothing wrong with that. but isnt this kind of coming out swinging, my way or the highway... .escalating conflict:

Don't put negative words in my mouth and negative thoughts in my head by just declaring it. I am more than willing to give it a shot, but If you are mad at me and call me names.  I'm not going to ride with you the next day.

she had her feelings out of sorts because she knew you didnt want to ride with her. now its her fault and shed better shape up. theres a better, more peaceful way for both of you, emphasis on whats in it for you.

and the intersection stuff? is that a dbt/mindfulness session, or is she making small talk (a lot of people like to bond over what irritates them... .give it a shot, and also try talking about the things the two of you love) and it makes you irritated and argue with her about what irritates her.

now im confident this is a rather small issue in your relationship that im speaking to (though may be part of the broader issue), and no doubt she can be irritating and high maintenance (big pet peeve of mine when someone comments on my driving) but i think its a great place to focus on, and also connect with your wife. there are more peaceful, even fun ways for nipping the comments in the bud. 

For example... .if you want closeness, you ask for closeness.
... .
"I should not have blown up at you this morning. I just felt that you were distant this morning and I felt self-conscious about it. It wasn't fair to either of us and it's not what I should have done in wanting to be close to you. I will do my best to be better."

great. self aware. gracious. a much more mature way of communicating needs less common to someone with BPD traits. how did you respond?

[RolandOfEld]

I will treat her with kindness and love regardless of where we end up.  I will not waiver from who I am because she can't control herself.

This is an awesome mantra, WC. I'm trying to apply it myself.

~ROE

[WileyCoyote]

I actually had told her I didn't be want to ride with her
multiple times.   We had discussed it a month prior more than once.  We discussed what it would take to make it work and what was acceptable.  Her even asking again was just trying to start conflict. Context.

I still disagree about the JADE thing.  This is real life.  This about making real life boundaries clear.   This is most definitely not my way or the highway.  This is... .Be kind to me or I'm not going to ride with you. Not to punish you, but to protect myself. And I said those words to her previously. And she agreed.
 What I'm saying in the conversation I posted was the more direct boundary statement .  I left the E xplanation out of it in later conversations.    A far cry from my way or the highway.  

The intersection stuff.   No dude.  Trust me. I'm downplaying the stuff she is saying.  And it is EVERY morning.  Sometimes pretty angry. It totally was me trying to share a new perspective with her. It was not small talk, but that is what I try to make it be.  

The back seat is full of buds I've nipped.  
 . Seriously.  I wish we could all meet irl groups sometimes.  I'm silly and like to have fun.  Her response to that is... .Your stupid.  So... .I try.  That I'm not as upset by traffic as her ALSO upsets her.  

I agree about the text.   She has some moments where she seems to have clarity.  But she can't follow through with the actions or self control.
   I told her thank you.  She was in a good mood in the car on the way home and asked if I wanted to keep listening to the book!  Yay!
She is trying.  And I tell her that I notice and appreciate when she is.

But... .Right?  The underlying feeling that her good moments are only brought on by the recent Revelation that divorce was something I had thought about if we couldn't work it out.  A legit motivation, but lasting one?

So for the moment I reward the good behavior with overt... .Thank you for doing this thing your doing... .Or thank you for talking to me about that difficult thing... or just a general... .I had a nice ride with you today.

Anyway.  I'm just sharing snippets that I find amusing.  In fact the whole point of this post was to share my attempts at doing just what you said.   Making it as peaceful as possible. It seems to be working.

[WileyCoyote]

So essentially it all comes down to this.   Dynamics in my FOO taught me to be an agreeable codependent.  (do the "right thing to control Mom's emotions and avoid judgement (udBPD) and Dad's intense anger (udNPD)  But like most things... with that realization... .in the now... .it does not have to be like that. That realization that I was not just a "nice guy" has really helped me immensely.   This codependency set up a slow build in my relationship where I took on (or attempted to  ) managing my wife's emotions.  The more I let all the boundaries fall, the more she pushed for more.  And why wouldn't she?  Who wants to grow up and be responsible?     Resentment grew... .I started to not do those things as much.  This led her to try to FOG me into continuing this dynamic... .then the rage.  The attempt to make me feel like I was a bad selfish person and it was all my fault.  I accepted this.  Lost myself in doubt about the self I had established before I met her.  Maybe I am awful?... .then found this place.  Then found a therapist.  Then found myself again.  

In all of this the beautiful simplicity that I can be happy. That I am happy.  We can't be both stuck.  As my T says, "you can't BOTH be running from HER demons.  That won't help her, and it will most likely hurt you."

Because I see my demons.  I've done the work.  I've looked into the abyss, and I'm fine.

Anyway,  Once Removed,  I understand the wisdom you are trying to share.  I have used all of those approaches.  But without the correct context it is hard to see that when I share the small pieces of long conversations.   I just don't have it in me to type out really long convos.  I'm just sharing the" good" bits.      Not sharing the " I hope you get cancer and die" comments.  Not sure they are useful for anyone reading my posts other than to be triggering.  

But yes, my wife is trying.  Whether it is genuine or not is up for debate.  If she thinks I am no longer thinking about leaving... .will she return to her old ways?  Who cares.  This can't drive my actions.  I tell my T, all I am looking for is some momentum toward change... .that the good and bad percentages of our interactions start leaning toward good.  I know it is hard for her.  I know there will be setbacks.  But she has to try,  I am.  Otherwise this is not sustainable, and I have made that clear to her.  

Someone on here said a profound truth.  ( I wish I could remember the username)   I paraphrased and told my wife the same thing.

"I love you, but I love S2 too.  You are an adult, he is a child who needs to be protected.  In order to keep the more vulnerable person I love safe, I might have to leave another person I love.  I don't want to, but if things don't change, I might have to."

Her response to that?   She yelled very angrily "You're right!" and croseed her arms and pouted like a child.   Talked with my T about this... .it's interesting.  When I seem  make it through to her, her core angry self is what responds.   She responds in logical thought out statements, but she yells them like she does her incoherent circle arguments.  He said this could very well be her true core self, in a dissociative sort of way. Like the Hulk .  It might even be a signal that I have actually REALLY communicated with her and she REALLY hears me.  From her recent actions, that seems to be the  case.

Because after I sad this to her, that is when her attitude shifted.  She has still acted out, but she has been quicker to come back to baseline.  So for the moment there is forward momentum. So for the moment I am fully invested and am staying because of that.   But nothing is set in stone anymore.  All options are available... .without accompanying fear and guilt.

I'll share more as it comes.  

[WileyCoyote]

Not pleased about the strange removal of the emoji's in all my posts here.    They were important for context, and my attitude.  Which is genuine happiness regardless of circumstances. When I type "", I am literally chuckling to myself. So i'll just say this to whomever did it.    

Had a good conversation with my wife today.

It's funny... .If you don't feel the need to defend yourself, when you are confident in who you are despite when the pwBPD tries to tell you who you are, you can see the truths and stay calm.  

She would say things like "we need to try to communicate better"
In the past I would say I am trying to communicate... .but when you do X it makes it hard to... blah blah blah.
Now I say "you're right, how can I help do that?"


She has enough shame.  I don't need to add to it by pointing my finger only at her.  I can survive a false/invalid allegations and validate the valid.   It won't kill me.  

[once removed]

I have used all of those approaches.  But without the correct context it is hard to see that when I share the small pieces of long conversations.   I just don't have it in me to type out really long convos.  I'm just sharing the" good" bits.      Not sharing the " I hope you get cancer and die" comments.  Not sure they are useful for anyone reading my posts other than to be triggering.  

its a given that our partners are very difficult, or worse. i dont doubt you on that for a second, WileyCoyote. anything i could offer about your own behavior, i am confident would pale in comparison to hers.

So essentially it all comes down to this.   Dynamics in my FOO taught me to be an agreeable codependent.  (do the "right thing to control Mom's emotions and avoid judgement (udBPD) and Dad's intense anger (udNPD)  But like most things... with that realization... .in the now... .it does not have to be like that. That realization that I was not just a "nice guy" has really helped me immensely.   This codependency set up a slow build in my relationship where I took on (or attempted to  ) managing my wife's emotions. 

i think my point, what im trying to say, is that while its a very positive development to recognize all of that and shift gears, sometimes we can swing hard in the other direction, and they can be two sides of the same coin. i had a similar trajectory, in that i wore my heart on my sleeve, and could be a wounded puppy or lap dog in my relationships. i grew a pair and could no longer recognize that in me, but then i got in a relationship where my response was to swing far away from that, "not take any bs", "call a spade a spade", that sort of thing. looking back, i was the invalidation and JADE king. i dont need context to see that in an albeit different way, the below conversations look/sound like trying to manage her emotions. more than that, i dont think theyre constructive.

we can reasonably disagree, but i hope youll think about it. divorce threats have a way of spurring someone into their best behavior for a time. after that, things can change. resentment can build. a person on the receiving end will have a tendency to say "wait a minute, im not the only problem here", and start "giving it back". and the other party often doubles down on their approach because it had worked previously, where it no longer will.

you can anticipate this, shift gears, build connection, if thats what you want to do.

[WileyCoyote]

Once Removed.  I know you have good intentions here.  But your not hearing me.   You do need context. 

I made no divorce threat.  You could interpret it that way I if you would like.  She probably did too.  But that is not what I did. 

If you could be see me interact with her I can guarantee that you would think differently about convos I share.   I do everything you keep suggesting.  And your not hearing me tell you that.   I apply all the tools.  I am not aggressive.  My voice is nuetral or positive.   I reinforce the positive.   I let her vent and validate the valid and ignore the invalid.   

I am kind and patient.  I am not trying to manage her emotions man.  I am stating a boundary.  It she can't manage her own emotions. I leave the conversation.   That is not me trying to do anything.     I am not aggressive or coming out swinging.   You can believe me or not.  ( Shrug)

And I completely expect a shift.   My wife is abusive.  This is a classic pattern of honeymoon phase behavior after REALLY bad behavior.   But for the moment I reinforce good behavior.

She is not on the "receiving end" of anything except my kindness patience and love. 

Anyway,. Another good conversation yesterday.  My wife has found a new therapist.  We talked to each other about what we would like the other to work on and listened to the high conflict couple some more.

Then we talked about normal things like what fun things we could do this weekend.   

Going well.   But I expect but don't fear the shift that likely will come.   Hopefully it's less than the last, and the next be will be less than be the last.   

If not?  Reevaluate, and move forward with love and kindness.

Anyway,. I'm done JADEing to you.    .  Although unlike my wife, I think your healthy enough to understand it.

[WileyCoyote]

In the spirit of better communication I'll say this too.
Onceremoved, I REALLY, appreciate your care and understanding, and understand your concern.

But I am not doing what it SEEMS (from my perspective) you think I'm doing.   

I FEEL like there might be some projection.  You are genuinely concerned I will make a similar mistake to the one you made.  I hear you.  And I appreciate it.   

The thing you fear is actually what got me here.   I DID do that before therapy.  I did fall in that trap.  And she did just what you are saying.   That is not where we are at now.  It just isn't. 

Thanks for sharing!

[once removed]

That is not where we are at now.  It just isn't. 

okay 

Anyway,. Another good conversation yesterday.  My wife has found a new therapist.  We talked to each other about what we would like the other to work on and listened to the high conflict couple some more.

Then we talked about normal things like what fun things we could do this weekend.   

Going well.   But I expect but don't fear the shift that likely will come.   Hopefully it's less than the last, and the next be will be less than be the last.   

if theres fun, and emotional connection, that shift is less likely to come, or at least be as pronounced. you know the underlying fears though with BPD, even with or sometimes because of those things. it may require some listening, and some reassurance.

whats the focus of her therapy going to be, do you know? what kind of therapy?

what kind of fun things this weekend?

[WileyCoyote]

We talked about going to some sort of fall festival.  Never got to do that, but not because of anything bad happening.  We are taking s2 to a cool indoor place place with some other adult friends this weekend.

I try to make it fun.       But at any moment something can happen that will make her pull out of the activity.    I just go do it anyway these days... .take s2 to the park.   Stuff like that.

  The past T had extensive experience with pwBPD.   She just quit seeing him abruptly.  He said nothing negative happened, in fact he thought she had finally started toward some sort of progress.    He said she was dealing with either BPD or PTSD or both.  He had not differentiated or diagnosed before she quit him.  I had worked to find that therapist and I still see him although he is moving soon.  

She mentioned to me that she had shared with her past T that she a hard time playing with and connecting with our son(2).  I had felt something was off but didn't know she was aware.   She had not shared how much that she was bothered by mothering issues with me but has found a therapist that specializes in post partum and parenting.  Integrative and mindfulness based therapy.  No mention of DBT or personality disorders on her work summary.  Specialties: Pregnancy, Prenatal, Postpartum, Anxiety,Depression.
 I hope she finds some insight here.  She does not do a lot to participate on a daily basis, although I have gently started asking her to do more without the baggage of what she HASN"T done in the past.  

[once removed]

He said nothing negative happened, in fact he thought she had finally started toward some sort of progress.  

sometimes progress can feel scary. or perhaps it wasnt the progress she wanted to make.

She mentioned to me that she had shared with her past T that she a hard time playing with and connecting with our son(2).

whatd she say? whatd you say? you think this might be an opening to connect?

[WileyCoyote]

sometimes progress can feel scary. or perhaps it wasnt the progress she wanted to make.

Yeah.  I tried to talk to her about that.  That is in another thread about her stopping.  I tried to talk a couple times. Then backed off.  Told her I was going to keep going and hoped she would too, with whomever.  It has been months.  I think a good sign that she took the initiative to find a new therapist.

whatd she say? whatd you say? you think this might be an opening to connect?

We talked about it. I always welcome sane calm talking.    Told her she could play with us anytime she wanted, she was always welcome.  She said it was boring to play with him.  I validated that.  Told her sure, I could see that,  Told her the playing part can be boring, but I have fun just in interacting and watching our son learn.  She has tried more lately and I have noticed and told her that.

But even her past T was concerned about her interaction. He asked me about it in a child welfare sort of way, not in a reveal what she talks about in therapy kind of way.  She can't help our son process his upset.  Her answer is to take out her breast and sooth him. He is almost 3.  Now... .I have no problem with breastfeeding longer and neither does the CDC. Not only that, it is her personal thing,  but the T seemed concerned about her ability to connect with him.

I think that she is chalking up things to post partum issues.  And they very well might be there (it has gotten worse), and I hope she can figure that stuff out a little too, but there was behavior before are marriage and child that can't be blamed on that.


But on to the carpooling.   We didn't ride together the last 3 days.  I'll share why.

I asked her if I could drive separately the next day OR the day after that to work late and make up a couple hours.  She launched into a tirade as if I said.  "I don't want to ride with you tomorrow or EVER"   "how could I drop this bombshell on her" etc.

I stayed calm.  Restated that I could go the next day. I was asking what worked for her.   She continued to spiral.  I said,  It seems like you are upset because you feel like I am springing this on you.   I can understand that, but that is why I wanted to give you a choice.

She got hateful at this point.  Said a bunch of stuff.  I listened.  She said "I guess we are not riding tomorrow"

I said calmly  "That is a good idea. We shouldn't ride together if we aren't getting along.  I'll do it tomorrow and get it over with"    

cue... ."your an *(*(*^(*^)*"    

Me: "please stop calling me names.  You're being mean."

She couldn't stop.   I went in another room.  She left me alone and mumbled in the other room.

Then each day she was either meaner, or ignored me.  I really tried to talk to her.  We haven't rode together since.  

I will ask her if she wants to ride together next week on Sunday.  


But the kid sees her mad at me, and is starting to get frustrated with her.  I can see it.  His attachment to me is much healthier. He waves goodbye and runs for a hug on return. She gets mad at me for something insignificant and uses it as an excuse to isolate goes upstairs without saying goodnight to EITHER of us.  and he notices.   Now when she does say goodnight or bye, he doesn't acknowledge it.  :-(    Hopefully this T can help her see the damage she will do if she continues down the path she is on.

I'm trying man.  I can only do what I can do.  But will keep doing it with love and kindness, but with firm boundaries.  If she can't see that she is the only one yelling, calling names, etc, then I believe that we are doomed.  I'm not talking about blame here.  I'm talking about accountability for her 50%.

[once removed]

Told her she could play with us anytime she wanted, she was always welcome.  

i might recommend inviting her in the moment, and even planning ahead. make it fun for the three of you. have you tried?

I will ask her if she wants to ride together next week on Sunday. 

thats a mature move. any update?

[WileyCoyote]

Oh yeah, I invite her to have fun with us.  And so does S2half        S2half has also been ordering mommy to hug me. (I did nothing to prompt this)  Sad and beautiful?  

We went to the indoor play place this weekend with her friend couple.  It was fun although she spent most of the time catching up with her friend.  I didn't mind, she hadn't seen them in a while.  Totally understandable.

We had a nice conversation Sunday. We talked about how it is hard for me or anyone to complement her (as she was sharing she wanted more affirmations) when she refuses the compliments or says really negative things in response.
She seems to be really hearing me and BELIEVING me when I say I hear her.   We also talked more about how telling me I have negative thoughts when I don't is her own inner voice.   I told her it broke my heart to not be able to make her happy, but I can't... .but i would share my happiness with her if she wants it.

So we rode together.  She said something interesting yesterday.  

She said. " We need help"
Me"OK"
Her: "Maybe my perspective is off.  I know I react poorly sometimes.  but I think I need a third party to hear us and let me know if how I am seeing things clearly"  

It really is hard to get used to.  The clarity, and then the completely clouded dysregulation at the other end of the spectrum

So MC is something we will be trying in the coming months.

More as it comes.

[Notgoneyet]

WileyCoyote ,
Thanks for the positive update.  Isn't it amazing what kids come up w on their own sometimes?   I love it.
Sounds like some real meaningful discussions you've been able to have. Great rlshp work there!
 (Quote)
So MC is something we will be trying in the coming months.
Have you began researching/interviewing MC yet?
It took me 5 wks to find our current C & it was well worth the effort .She specializes in addictions, trauma, & has helped BPD's many times in past. (Customized just for my uBPDw).   I've never heard someone validate feelings as well as she does.
Another heads up is the (Good ones) many times have a waiting list so may want get signed up to list well in advance. Some of the BPD only experts were even closed to New Clients. Several that we wanted to try were.
You may have read on here elsewhere that its a good idea to (interview) have a list ,ask how many BPD's they have seen / successfully helped, technics used ,etc. If we find another one I will ensure they are experts on DBT , CBT .

Strength & Hope on your search & journey , NGY

[WileyCoyote]

Hi NotGoneYet!

Yeah, I spent a good deal of time searching for my current T.  We were both seeing him individually (with the plan to come together)but my wife quit him.   He has extensive experience with trauma and BPD.  He had previously been working inpatient at a hospital.  He seems to be pretty good so far. 

I plan to try to find someone with some equivalent experience.  We will see.  Also going to try to go to some NAMI meetings in place of some AA meetings I usually go to.

No rush on the MC.  Need to find a good one like you said.   I'm just glad my wife has found a new individual T to talk to. 

[once removed]

im hearing what sound like positive developments... .

marriage counseling can really help, and it sounds like you have a willing partner in trying to find someone who can help the two of you.

and it can also hurt, because quite often, one or both parties comes in with the attitude of "fixing" the other partner and getting the therapist on their side (a good therapist knows how to navigate this but hey, they arent all great). it sounds like you try to hear your partner, and it sounds like she has taken some ownership in the sense that she recognizes she reacts poorly. both of those attitudes are good signs, along with the teamwork so to speak, on the high conflict marriage book. as seriously as you research and vet, anticipate the hurdles that marriage counseling can sometimes introduce.

[Notgoneyet]

WileyCoyote ,
Thx for the lead there (NAMI). I hadn't heard of them but figured there most be something like that. I'm going to check into this asap. Goodness knows I could use some help looking for other resources.

Quote:
 Also going to try to go to some NAMI meetings in place of some AA meetings I usually go to.

Googled it and already found 3 meeting places in the area, so going to set one up tomarrow.

Wishing you a successful search
  Thanks again WC,  NGY