she called after 3 months NC

[Educated_Guess]

Hi all!  I'm glad to be back.  I've had some computer issues and I just can't reliably type on my phone as I have fat finger syndrome and an aggressive auto-correct that thwarts my efforts.

I got my first call from my BPD ex at almost exactly 3 months after she moved out.  We never made a overt decision to go NC.  She said that she would like to stay in contact before she moved out but I knew that she wouldn't so I didn't think much about it.

She left a lot of her belongings and furniture at my house when she moved out. She said that her mom would come pick it up at some point. After 2 months of hearing nothing, I called her mom about it.  We arranged a day for her brother to come pick up the furniture.  The brother was supposed to call before he came but he didn't.  He arrived at the house and knocked on the door.  I couldn't hear it and wasn't expecting him to show up without calling first.

Apparently the phone tree was activated and word got to my ex (who now lives several states away) that I was not answering my door.  She calls to tell me that her brother is outside of my house.  I casually said that I didn't hear him knocking and I would go let him end.  The conversation could have easily ended at that point.

But she kept talking.  She was frantic and out of breath.  I'm trying to direct her brother in moving her belongings out while also trying to keep up with the almost maniac pace of my ex talking.  She says that she didn't know this furniture moving thing was going on until she got a call a few moments before.  She was also in the process of moving herself which could have accounted for her being out of breath.

She tells me about how her disabled mother is trapped in a "Whatever Happened to Baby Jane?" scenario with family who are physically abusive and have isolated her mother.  I listen to the story and comment when appropriate.  The majority of the conversation was about this topic.  She talked about how upset she had been about this and that she had been crying all night about it.  This seemed kinda strange to me since she wanted her mother to die about 3 months ago. Apparently mom is being idealized again - quite possibly because she is providing financial support.

My ex tells me she still does not have a job but has some interviews.  (What is she living on with no income for 3 months?)  She tells me about how her only form of transportation is a bicycle with no tires.  She really had to shoehorn that into the conversation. It did not flow naturally with the topic being discussed.

After about 10-15 minutes of this, she got around to asking me about how I was doing.  I told her I was doing well. She asked how the cats were doing and I gave her an update on them. She told me that for the first few weeks after she moved, she had dreams that one of my cats had hitchhiked down to her new home and would show up at her doorstep.

She ended the conversation shortly afterwards.  She said, "It was good to hear your voice."  I replied that it was good to talk to her too. She rambled about how she may not be so nervous about calling now that she got the first call out of the way.  Then the call ended.

Conclusions
The call happened almost exactly 3 months after she moved out.  We know that 3-6 months is that magic time frame for them to pop up out of nowhere because the honeymoon phase of the new life is waning.

She had to have an excuse to call (the whole moving furniture deal).  She could have easily ended the call after telling me her brother was there to pick up the furniture if this was the only purpose of the call but she kept talking.  She couldn't call me just to talk to me but if she has an excuse, then she can. 

She had to have an exit strategy to get out of the call at a moments notice.  She informed me at the beginning of the call that she was moving herself. If the conversation got personal or uncomfortable, she would have a reasonable excuse to end it quickly.

Without me even asking any questions, she preemptively outlined all the reasons why she has not achieved whatever it is that she thinks she would be judged about.  She doesn't have a job but she has interviews. She has no transportation and her mother is being held captive!  So many barriers to taking responsibility... .

She did address the transition that happened after moving but it wasn't about missing me or missing her home.  It was that one of my cats showed up repeatedly in her dreams.

She tells me it is good to hear my voice. Admittedly, I have a good voice and it is nice to hear.  But that doesn't say anything about actually missing me or anything about me other than my dulcet tones.

The only thing about the exchange that made an impression on me was how much she was exactly the same as she has always been.  The excuses for her life failures are still there even though I, the horrible villain who destroyed her psyche,  am no longer part of it.  She's still dancing that push me/pull me dance - hinting that she might have some emotional connection to me but not saying anything outright.  She is, as always, prepared to run the instant that she might have to deal with something truthful or uncomfortable.

On the whole, I found the conversation to be an exercise in confirming what I already know.  The only thing that was really different was that I knew what she was doing as the words came out of her mouth.  After the call ended, I said to myself, "Yep, she's still the same."  And that was that.

[Turkish]

What bothers you the most, that she incessantly gushed about herself?  

My ex likes talking to me about herself.  Until she's done and then I get a "how are you?" As an after thought.  

The cat dream is interesting.  Maybe it's her brain's way of processing. My ex once told me that she had a dream where she and the kids were being chased by bad guys.  I was there at first and then i wasn't.  I said, "wow.  You even think i abandon you in your dreams!" She said "no, no, you just weren't there." I thought so why tell me?

As for her mom? She can call adult protective services.  They take elder abuse seriously. 

[Educated_Guess]

What bothers you the most, that she incessantly gushed about herself?  

My ex likes talking to me about herself.  Until she's done and then I get a "how are you?" As an after thought.

Hi Turkish!  Yes, it is like an afterthought.  It just shows where their focus is and it is not on you.  But that actually didn't bother me.  It was expected behavior.  I was actually surprised that she asked about me at all. 

I suppose the thing that bothered me the most was that push me/pull me stuff.  She had a way of saying something that sounded emotionally meaningful at first glance but was actually kind of hollow once you really considered it.  That was also the aspect of the relationship that bothered me the most. She always kept me at arms length until she needed something from me.

The cat dream is interesting.  Maybe it's her brain's way of processing. My ex once told me that she had a dream where she and the kids were being chased by bad guys.  I was there at first and then i wasn't.  I said, "wow.  You even think i abandon you in your dreams!" She said "no, no, you just weren't there." I thought so why tell me?

Yes, it may have been a way to process the move. The cat that showed up in the dreams is kind of the shepherd of family ties in the house.  He mothers everyone.

It's interesting about your ex's dream too and a really good observation on your part.  It was told to communicate something to you but not directly.  I've read other people describe their BPD partners getting mad at them for something that happened in a dream.  Did that happen to you?

As for her mother, the police and APS had already been called.  This is good and not just for the obvious reasons. I didn't feel the need to jump in and fix things as I am prone to do that.

[Turkish]

She got mad at me over so many things I don't remember about the dreams.  In that particular incident no. 

Glad for her mother.  The professionals can handle it. 

Do you anticipate more contact?

[Educated_Guess]

I don’t think she will anytime soon.  I didn’t give much emotion to feed off of.  She won’t take the risk unless she thinks she can hook me.  She might if she can’t make it financially or if she becomes more isolated.  For the time being, she has friends that probably meet those needs.

[once removed]

We know that 3-6 months is that magic time frame for them to pop up out of nowhere because the honeymoon phase of the new life is waning.
... .
She rambled about how she may not be so nervous about calling now that she got the first call out of the way.

3-6 months is a reasonable time frame for the ice to thaw. it sounds like she had thought about reaching out, but hadnt, for obvious reasons. post breakup contact can be confusing, and/or emotional, but most of it is pretty garden variety stuff.

it also sounds like she wanted to catch up, and spent a lot of time talking about herself. is that typical of her? sometimes thats the go to when people are feeling nervous/awkward.

how are you feeling about the conversation? helpful, harmful? has some of the ice thawed?

[Educated_Guess]

3-6 months is a reasonable time frame for the ice to thaw. it sounds like she had thought about reaching out, but hadnt, for obvious reasons. post breakup contact can be confusing, and/or emotional, but most of it is pretty garden variety stuff.

it also sounds like she wanted to catch up, and spent a lot of time talking about herself. is that typical of her? sometimes thats the go to when people are feeling nervous/awkward.

how are you feeling about the conversation? helpful, harmful? has some of the ice thawed?

Hi once removed!  Yes, the talking about herself is a normal thing.  I don’t know if it is tied to nervousness.  If it is then she is probably nervous all the time LOL.

It’s strange but that characteristic of hers had faded from my memory in these past few months.  Once the conversation started, my memory jumped back in place and it was like, “Oh yes, this is what she was like all the time.”

The conversation didn’t really bother me.  It happens several weeks ago and I’m only sharing it now.  Part of the reason I wanted to share it is because y’all are good at picking up on things I may not see.  It made me a little bit suspicious that it didn’t bother me more and made me wonder if I missed something.

There wasn’t a tense or angry word spoken in the conversation so maybe that is a sign that the ice has thawed.  But there was still no recognition from her about how she treated me or behaved.  No sense of accountability.  And those things are non-negotiables for me when it comes to repairing the relationship in any way.  I cannot pretend that what happened between us did not happen and I doubt that she would ever be able to face it herself or admit to what happened.  I just don’t see any path forward in those conditions.

[Harley Quinn]

It made me a little bit suspicious that it didn’t bother me more and made me wonder if I missed something.

I read your initial post and it struck me how calm, matter of fact and measured you came across and that's impressive.  Speaking to an ex unexpectedly can be triggering.  I realise some time has passed since you spoke.  How were you feeling in yourself before the call?  Perhaps it's an indicator of your detachment that you were not bothered more.  Where would you say you are at present in the stages of detaching? (see right  )

Love and light x

[Educated_Guess]

I read your initial post and it struck me how calm, matter of fact and measured you came across and that's impressive.  Speaking to an ex unexpectedly can be triggering.  I realise some time has passed since you spoke.  How were you feeling in yourself before the call?  Perhaps it's an indicator of your detachment that you were not bothered more.  Where would you say you are at present in the stages of detaching? (see right  )

Love and light x

Thanks Harley Quinn!  Right before my ex called, I was talking to my mom on the phone.  I was talking with my mom about how I'm at place in my life where I am no longer doubting my worth as a human being just because other people don't recognize it or suddenly stop recognizing it.  We were talking about a different issue.  It was not directly about the breakup.  But this is part of what I have learned because of the breakup.

My mom told me that she was proud of me and the progress I've made.  I'm sure that speaking about my belief in my own worth and to have that validated helped me to feel centered and at peace when the ex called.

As for the levels of detachment, I'm somewhere between 3-5.  I'm still processing things and probably will be for a long time.  It's in my nature to ruminate over experiences and integrate them into what I believe and value.

I have been working on creating new things with the people in my life now. I have been working with a group of friends to create a LGBTQ+support group.  It's the first of its kind in my region.  I've also been talking with other people about what I have learned. 

I preached a sermon about a month ago about how important it is to be willing to tell people about the bad things happening in your life - what has broken you heart, what you have failed at -because it creates an environment where others feel free to share what they are struggling with.  By sharing your suffering with others, so you also share in comfort (1 Corinthians 1).  I have a multi-part presentation coming up about the experience of being vulnerable and it's negative and positive impacts.

I feel free more often than not most days.  I'm still aware of what I have lost but it is more a bittersweet sadness now than a source of pain.  I think the difference is that I feel pain when I resist what has happened.  I feel the bittersweet sadness when I recognize that loss is an inevitable part of loving.  All things must pass for us mortals.  When I accept that loss is a part of loving, I'm able to give the grief the space it needs while remembering the good that was once there.

So I bounce back and forth.  It depends on my perspective at the moment.  But I am moving towards being free more often than not.

[mama-wolf]

Hi EG, and welcome back!  Just now catching up on this thread... .

On the whole, I found the conversation to be an exercise in confirming what I already know.  The only thing that was really different was that I knew what she was doing as the words came out of her mouth.  After the call ended, I said to myself, "Yep, she's still the same."  And that was that.

I'm glad to hear that the conversation went relatively well (as in, not triggering or full of conflict).  What you shared here about your perspective on the conversation stuck out at me, as it is something I'm trying to be more aware of myself.  When I have talked to my T about discussions/encounters with my uBPDxw, my T has tried to help me see how her behaviors just reinforced what I already knew about her... .in many ways confirming my reasons for separating.  I still carry a lot of guilt from the relationship and its failure, and that causes a tendency in me to rewrite history and forget "my truth" as my T called it. I find it hard getting the confirmation/reminders from these encounters because it makes me face a truth that's pretty darn painful.  Not sure if that's in your experience, but thank you for sharing because it's helping me think through it a bit more on my end.

The conversation didn’t really bother me.  It happens several weeks ago and I’m only sharing it now.  Part of the reason I wanted to share it is because y’all are good at picking up on things I may not see.  It made me a little bit suspicious that it didn’t bother me more and made me wonder if I missed something.

There wasn’t a tense or angry word spoken in the conversation so maybe that is a sign that the ice has thawed.  But there was still no recognition from her about how she treated me or behaved.  No sense of accountability.  And those things are non-negotiables for me when it comes to repairing the relationship in any way.  I cannot pretend that what happened between us did not happen and I doubt that she would ever be able to face it herself or admit to what happened.  I just don’t see any path forward in those conditions.

As HQ brought up, it sounds at least in part like a question of your state of detachment.  What does "repairing the relationship" mean to you and what do you want in that regard?  Are you talking about continuing as friends, so something potentially more?  No judgement either way, but it also made me think about the detachment process as well.  I take it we can successfully detach from our relationship with a pwBPD and have some kind of friendship with them... .I just don't know what that looks like.

mw

[Educated_Guess]

I'm glad to hear that the conversation went relatively well (as in, not triggering or full of conflict).  What you shared here about your perspective on the conversation stuck out at me, as it is something I'm trying to be more aware of myself.  When I have talked to my T about discussions/encounters with my uBPDxw, my T has tried to help me see how her behaviors just reinforced what I already knew about her... .in many ways confirming my reasons for separating.  I still carry a lot of guilt from the relationship and its failure, and that causes a tendency in me to rewrite history and forget "my truth" as my T called it. I find it hard getting the confirmation/reminders from these encounters because it makes me face a truth that's pretty darn painful.  Not sure if that's in your experience, but thank you for sharing because it's helping me think through it a bit more on my end.

Hi mama-wolf!  Thanks for replying.  It's interesting that you bring up guilt.  I did a psychological study on guilt back in my college days.  What we found is that people feel guilt when they have caused harm or loss to someone they care about.  I felt a lot of guilt immediately after the breakup about the things that I had done wrong that hurt her (of course I was also being told about all the wrong I had done plus some LOL).

What took more time was recognizing the guilt I felt for myself.  I allowed myself to be drenched in apathy which is a kind of death of the soul.  I cut myself off from what I felt because I was told that what I felt (wanting to freely express my love and be shown love in return) was wrong or abnormal.  Essentially, I denied myself in order to fit in the mold of who she thought I should be. That guilt goes deeper.

If you don't mind me asking, what is the truth that is painful for you?

As HQ brought up, it sounds at least in part like a question of your state of detachment.  What does "repairing the relationship" mean to you and what do you want in that regard?  Are you talking about continuing as friends, so something potentially more?  No judgement either way, but it also made me think about the detachment process as well.  I take it we can successfully detach from our relationship with a pwBPD and have some kind of friendship with them... .I just don't know what that looks like.

Yeah, I'm not really sure what that looks like either. I suspect that I will find a unicorn or a Sasquatch before I will find a way to maintain a healthy relationship with my ex.  I could never be in a romantic relationship with her again, no matter the circumstances.  I wouldn't be able to trust her and I would always be waiting for the ax to fall.  I just can't be comfortable in a relationship based on that and I am no longer willing to be in a romantic relationship that makes me uncomfortable in that way.

There is a possibility of being friends.  But in order for there to be any real bond there, we would have to work through our unfinished business.  It would be unfair to me to work at maintaining/improving a relationship where there is no reciprocity.  There has been no resolution to the fact that she devalued and discarded me.  For any active relationship to continue, that has to be resolved.  I doubt that she will ever be capable of doing that kind of work on herself or for the relationship.

But, who knows, maybe she'll have a breakthrough some day.  I'm the kind of person who likes to think that mythical things like unicorns and stable relationships with BPD exes exist.  But that doesn't mean I feel compelled to chase after them.   

[once removed]

There wasn’t a tense or angry word spoken in the conversation so maybe that is a sign that the ice has thawed.  But there was still no recognition from her about how she treated me or behaved.  No sense of accountability.  And those things are non-negotiables for me when it comes to repairing the relationship in any way.  I cannot pretend that what happened between us did not happen and I doubt that she would ever be able to face it herself or admit to what happened.  I just don’t see any path forward in those conditions.

it seems to me the call/conversation was an "ice breaker". to call you and be all apologies is a heavy conversation, one that puts her in a pretty vulnerable position, risk of being rejected, etc. i suspect she just wanted to catch up, tell you how shes doing, "hear your voice".

There is a possibility of being friends.  But in order for there to be any real bond there, we would have to work through our unfinished business.  It would be unfair to me to work at maintaining/improving a relationship where there is no reciprocity.  There has been no resolution to the fact that she devalued and discarded me.  For any active relationship to continue, that has to be resolved.  I doubt that she will ever be capable of doing that kind of work on herself or for the relationship.

it sounds like for you, the ice has not thawed. nothing wrong with that, by the way.

while thats the case, it would pretty likely make a friendship impossible, though.

i had a girlfriend in high school. we had been close friends before that for a long time. the relationship ended very badly. she dropped me for someone new, and totally ghosted me. but when i started asking for some belongings back, she became really vindictive. told everyone i was stalking her. sicked her friends on me. literally put up home made fliers around the school making fun of me and my nose. would drive by my house honking. there was significant ill will between us, for a long time, and ive never totally forgotten any of it. "why would i want to be friends with that", right?

fast forward to many years later. we speak once or twice a month. i see her every year at her annual halloween party. we get on really well, and though shes far from my close circle of friends, our relationship enriches my life. there wasnt ever any accountability. no sharing of feelings or discussion of what happened. no mending of each others wounds. there didnt need to be.

post breakup friendship is a very different kind of relationship, as it should be. it may be close, but not the same kind of close; it has different boundaries, far fewer if any expectations. and its very rare that helping each other heal or making amends has any part of it. the healing usually needs to take place on its/our own, before its possible.

on the other hand, the ex that brought me here so to speak, it ended very badly as well, and we never spoke again. the ice has thawed and the wounds have healed; emotionally i could certainly handle being friends/friendly, but its a chapter that i think its best we leave closed.

the choice is ultimately yours, and there is really no right or wrong. i would suggest that if you listen to your thoughts/feelings as they are right now, theres not a lot of room for whatever a friendship might look like, right now. thats okay. its really not something that can/should be forced. it may be that the ice has thawed enough that the two of you can have very occasional "how ya doin" (or how shes doin) conversations unless/until it evolves into something more. post breakup friendships usually dont become more than that.

what do you think?

[mama-wolf]

I feel a little like I'm hijacking your thread here, but wanted to answer your question... .

If you don't mind me asking, what is the truth that is painful for you?

Much of what I write below, I guess.  In summary, I would say it's the truth of what I "let" happen.  The truth of how much of myself I denied, smothered, and allowed to atrophy... .the friendships and family relationships I neglected out of some sense of duty/obligation to my ex.  The truth of what I subjected my kids to because I wasn't able to recognize what was going on.

It's interesting that you bring up guilt.  I did a psychological study on guilt back in my college days.  What we found is that people feel guilt when they have caused harm or loss to someone they care about. 

What took more time was recognizing the guilt I felt for myself.

This is a perspective I hadn't thought about before, and I have been trying to take a little time to process it.  I hadn't really considered guilt for myself... .my focus there has been on the impact of the separation on my kids, and even in some ways on my ex.  It's easy to recognize that kind of guilt.  But since I haven't historically thought in terms of caring about myself, it's a more difficult concept to reframe the guilt (at least, some of it) as guilt I feel for myself.

Most of the thoughts/feelings that I have turned inwards for many months have been a significant amount of self-criticism and self-recrimination.  You know, those thoughts of "how could I have gotten myself into that situation," "I was so stupid and blind," "what a weak person to give up so much of my identity like that," "what damage have I done to my kids for not seeing it sooner?"  I do recognize them for what they are now.  It doesn't quite keep them from happening, but I'm working on changing the script and recognizing that much of that self criticism is a lasting effect of the relationship itself.

I allowed myself to be drenched in apathy which is a kind of death of the soul.  I cut myself off from what I felt because I was told that what I felt (wanting to freely express my love and be shown love in return) was wrong or abnormal.  Essentially, I denied myself in order to fit in the mold of who she thought I should be. That guilt goes deeper.

I haven't experienced it personally, but I can imagine how very painful it is to be told your feelings are wrong or abnormal.  It's hard enough to love someone who doesn't return that feeling, but for that love to be devalued in such a way is so damaging.  I wasn't aware of it for a long time, but see now how much I tried to convince myself I didn't care about things I really wanted and cared about because they were dismissed, devalued, or otherwise denied by my ex, and otherwise drove myself to exhaustion trying to fulfill and satisfy her expectations.  That started to translate into not caring about much of anything other than getting through one day after another.  I definitely reached a state of apathy, though I hid it as best I could from my kids.  It took so long for me to see how much of myself I buried, ignored, and damn near actively strangled for my ex's sake, and I'm still discovering.

There is a possibility of being friends.  But in order for there to be any real bond there, we would have to work through our unfinished business.  It would be unfair to me to work at maintaining/improving a relationship where there is no reciprocity.  There has been no resolution to the fact that she devalued and discarded me.  For any active relationship to continue, that has to be resolved.  I doubt that she will ever be capable of doing that kind of work on herself or for the relationship.

I'd like to think I could be friends with my ex one day.  It's really hard to imagine, and not something I can even consider actively pursuing right now, but I would particularly want it to be the case for my kids' sake.  In my situation, I was the one who chose to end the relationship, so I think the only way this could happen would be if I were to (in her eyes, by her judgement) take accountability for how I "abandoned" her and did her so wrong.  I think she would need to decide that she has forgiven me for that to happen, which I couldn't care less about.  And there would be little to no acknowledgement of my pain or the effects she has had on me, so that conversation seems fairly pointless.

post breakup friendship is a very different kind of relationship, as it should be. it may be close, but not the same kind of close; it has different boundaries, far fewer if any expectations. and its very rare that helping each other heal or making amends has any part of it. the healing usually needs to take place on its/our own, before its possible.

This is encouraging, once removed.  Thank you for the examples and your perspective on that.

But, who knows, maybe she'll have a breakthrough some day.  I'm the kind of person who likes to think that mythical things like unicorns and stable relationships with BPD exes exist.  But that doesn't mean I feel compelled to chase after them.   

Same

mw

[Educated_Guess]

it sounds like for you, the ice has not thawed. nothing wrong with that, by the way.

while thats the case, it would pretty likely make a friendship impossible, though.

the choice is ultimately yours, and there is really no right or wrong. i would suggest that if you listen to your thoughts/feelings as they are right now, theres not a lot of room for whatever a friendship might look like, right now. thats okay. its really not something that can/should be forced. it may be that the ice has thawed enough that the two of you can have very occasional "how ya doin" (or how shes doin) conversations unless/until it evolves into something more. post breakup friendships usually dont become more than that.

what do you think?

once_removed, is that what it means for the ice to thaw?  LOL  I guess it hasn't then.  For myself, I would say that the ice has thawed at least somewhat.  Although I could find no resolution or healing with her, I sought it out on my own.  I don't feel the need to hash these things out with her because 1) she probably not capable of dealing with it and 2) I don't need to resolve it with her to be able find grace and healing for myself.

That probably sounds contradictory to what I previously stated.  Let me explain.

In this past year, I've become aware of how I have remained in unbalanced relationships and how that has been detrimental to me.  This was mostly coming from my childhood where I maintained relationships with family members who were abusive to me.  I felt the duty to keep the relationship going because we're family.  I justified this by saying that they were not psychologically strong or stable enough to face the reality of their own actions and the consequences that came from it (particularly the damage it did to me that I'm still working through).

Taking that approach creates an imbalance.  If there is a grievance in a relationship that is unresolved, the pain of that still has to be carried.  It is a burden.  I took on the burden without speaking it out loud because I thought I was strong enough and they were not.  Thing is, they don't recognize that you are doing that.  Rather than fostering good will within the relationship, you usually get rewarded by asking to take on even more of the burden in the relationship. 

The other person in the relationship never really sees you and what you are going through.  If your lived experience surfaces and they have to deal with it, the response will likely be "You just need to get over it already" or "It wasn't really that bad.  A lot of people have had it worse than you did."  They can say things like that because they haven't recognized the consequences and how it wrecked me.  They haven't had to deal with it everyday as I have.

The other thing about this is that it's pretty dang arrogant to think that you can carry the burden when others are not strong enough to do it. I'm overestimating my own strength while potentially underestimating their strength.  If I carry the burden willingly and without speaking about it, I deny them the opportunity to try to deal with it themselves. Maybe they will find the strength to deal with their actions and the consequences, but we'll never know if I hoard all the responsibility and duty in the relationship.

For all of these reasons, I no longer want to be in a relationship where I have to carry the all the burden.  I don't want to be in a relationship where I am not seen, where my experience is not recognized and valued. It is a boundary I am setting.  I'm not saying that people in relationship with me cannot make mistakes or do no wrong.  I'm just saying if they do, they need to be accountable for their actions just like I am accountable for what I do.

I'm working towards healing and wholeness within myself.  And part of that is setting boundaries on relationships that have been harmful.  I am doing this because I recognize my own propensity to make compromises in relationships that are harmful for me. If the other person is not interested in living truthfully and healing, that's cool.  They have their own path to walk.  But I'll keep moving forward on my path and I will shake the dust off my sandals as I go.

[once removed]

what im hearing is that there have been relationships where you carried resentment. you excused them, but the resentment persisted, and/or grew. if you brought up this resentment, you were invalidated. so youve exited the relationship(s). do i have that right?

I felt the duty to keep the relationship going because we're family.

i think this is a good value. our boundaries are tied to our values. a member here once said something to the effect of "good boundaries are about having a relationship that is safe, and works". theyre less about training other people to treat us right or own everything they do that we dont like.

i think it especially applies to all of the difficult (or very difficult) people in our lives, an ex, a family member, a coworker, a teacher, a student, a neighbor, someone in our church, etc. we can only go so far in avoiding this; with 30% of the population having a diagnosable mental illness (of any kind) at any given time, and statistically an awful lot of people that are just jerks, difficult people are everywhere. it pays big time to have the skills and tools to navigate.

i have a lot of difficult people in my life, not limited to the ex i mentioned. the relationships can be challenging, dont get me wrong, but the tools ive learned here help me navigate, and good boundaries help me maintain what are by and large, safe and rewarding relationships.

with an ex romantic partner, you need "ex romantic partner boundaries".

https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

[Educated_Guess]

mama-wolf, there is no hijacking here!  I put this stuff out there so we can share our stories.  And thank you for sharing more of your story with me!

This is a perspective I hadn't thought about before, and I have been trying to take a little time to process it.  I hadn't really considered guilt for myself... .my focus there has been on the impact of the separation on my kids, and even in some ways on my ex.  It's easy to recognize that kind of guilt.  But since I haven't historically thought in terms of caring about myself, it's a more difficult concept to reframe the guilt (at least, some of it) as guilt I feel for myself.

You may not have framed this as being guilt that you feel for yourself, but you are saying this very thing all over the place.  It's there in the words you say.  Remember that guilt is something you feel when you cause harm or loss to someone you care about.  Now look at your own descriptions.  I put some words you wrote in bold that stood out to me.  My interpretation of how it fits with the experience of guilt, specifically guilt you feel for yourself, are in italics.

Much of what I write below, I guess.  In summary, I would say it's the truth of what I "let" happen (this is cause).  The truth of how much of myself I denied, smothered, and allowed to atrophy (this is loss) ... .the friendships and family relationships I neglected out of some sense of duty/obligation to my ex.  The truth of what I subjected my kids to because I wasn't able to recognize what was going on.

Most of the thoughts/feelings that I have turned inwards for many months have been a significant amount of self-criticism and self-recrimination (this is harm to self).  You know, those thoughts of "how could I have gotten myself into that situation (is the assumption here that you should have known better?)," "I was so stupid and blind (assigning descriptors to yourself to identify the cause)," "what a weak (another descriptor to identify cause) person to give up (cause) so much of my identity (loss of self) like that," "what damage have I done to my kids for not seeing it sooner?"  I do recognize them for what they are now.  It doesn't quite keep them from happening, but I'm working on changing  the script and recognizing that much of that self criticism is a lasting effect of the relationship itself (unhealthy or extreme self-criticism is harm to the self).

I haven't experienced it personally, but I can imagine how very painful it is to be told your feelings are wrong or abnormal.  It's hard enough to love someone who doesn't return that feeling, but for that love to be devalued in such a way is so damaging.  I wasn't aware of it for a long time, but see now how much I tried to convince myself (cause) I didn't care about things I really wanted and cared about (loss) because they were dismissed, devalued, or otherwise denied by my ex, and otherwise drove myself (cause) to exhaustion (harm to self) trying to fulfill and satisfy her expectations.  That started to translate into not caring about much of anything other than getting through one day after another.  I definitely reached a state of apathy, though I hid it as best I could from my kids.  It took so long for me to see how much of myself I buried, ignored, and damn near actively strangled (loss and harm to self) for my ex's sake, and I'm still discovering.

See?  It's all over the place.  It may not be your focus right now because you are thinking more about your family and friends, but it is there.

Here's the good thing about guilt: You only feel guilt in relation to someone or something you care about.  If you feel guilt about yourself, that means you care about yourself.  That is a great place to start your work.

And you should care about yourself.  There is nothing wrong with that.  You do not take away from how much you care for and love others by recognizing that you care for yourself.  Love is not a limited resource and it doesn't work that way.  In fact, the more that you care for and love yourself, the greater your capacity to love and care for others.  The statement that that Jesus made to "love your neighbor as you love yourself" has a meaning that we often forget.  You have to love yourself to love your neighbor.  

Try to have grace and understanding for yourself.  Based on your words, it seems like you think you should have known better than to do what you did.  But we don't know all those things in advance.  We don't come out of the womb with this level of understanding and foreknowledge.  Life is about learning and improving.  This experience is an opportunity to learn and improve but you can't get there if you are stuck on thinking about how you should have known better.

It is natural and healthy to make some compromises in relationships.  Sometimes you have to moderate what you want to meet the needs of your partner.  The thing is that it is a fine line between making healthy compromises and unhealthy ones.  It can be hard to recognize when you have crossed that line.  Try to be kind with yourself.  Instead of beating yourself up over not recognizing when your crossed that line, remember that your are a person who wanted to love and be loved and you were attempting to do that the best way that you could with what you knew at the time.  

Blessings to you, mama-wolf!

[mama-wolf]

I took on the burden without speaking it out loud because I thought I was strong enough and they were not.  Thing is, they don't recognize that you are doing that.  Rather than fostering good will within the relationship, you usually get rewarded by asking to take on even more of the burden in the relationship.

Did you do this consciously?  For me, I wasn't consciously aware of it, and therefore I didn't really have anything to say about it.  I just did it because that's what felt natural or appropriate (let's set aside for a moment why it felt that way).  After the fact, looking back on the relationship and especially seeing the part about being asked to take on even more... .this was definitely my experience in the marriage.

The other person in the relationship never really sees you and what you are going through.  If your lived experience surfaces and they have to deal with it, the response will likely be "You just need to get over it already" or "It wasn't really that bad.  A lot of people have had it worse than you did."  They can say things like that because they haven't recognized the consequences and how it wrecked me.  They haven't had to deal with it everyday as I have.

I don't know all you have been through, but I understand how invalidating and upsetting responses like that can be.  It's bad enough if they are coming from within us, but to come from the one who has done us harm... .that's much worse.

I am convinced my ex would tell me that others have had it far worse than I have.  The problem with that is, I actually agree on that point.  It's one thing I struggle with in regards to accepting the impact my relationship has had on me.  I even mentioned it to my T, who tried to tell me that we don't get to choose what traumatizes us.  But still... .there are some experiences we could hear about and many would accept without hesitation that they are traumatic.  Other experiences are less clear-cut, and that room for doubt is the same territory that my inner critic likes to prowl.

The whole "get over it already" is an attitude I dealt with most obviously for the last 8-9 months or so of my marriage.  I was totally emotionally burnt out, which I had addressed with my T and made both uBPDxw and the MC aware of in couples counseling.  But after each session with the MC, I had the distinct impression that my ex was just waiting for me to "get over it" so that we could stop talking about her and finally start focusing on my "inability" to be more emotionally available and vulnerable... .and my supposedly warped relationship with my mom.

The part about "it wasn't really that bad"... .well, I keep trying to convince myself of that for reasons discussed elsewhere (if it wasn't that bad, then I'm the bad guy, which is apparently easier for me to accept than the fact that I "let" myself be emotionally abused).  And of course, my ex is absolutely convinced it could never have been as bad as I might perceive it to have been, because she would never be able accept her role in that situation.

I'm working towards healing and wholeness within myself. 

If the other person is not interested in living truthfully and healing, that's cool.  They have their own path to walk.  But I'll keep moving forward on my path and I will shake the dust off my sandals as I go.

Good for you, EG!  I am sure it has taken a lot of work to get there, but you have done it and you sound strong and confident.  I'm on the path, but definitely not as far along as you, and it's encouraging to get a glimpse of where you are.

mama-wolf, there is no hijacking here!  I put this stuff out there so we can share our stories.  And thank you for sharing more of your story with me!

Well, thank you for starting the conversation and inviting the discussion

You may not have framed this as being guilt that you feel for yourself, but you are saying this very thing all over the place.  It's there in the words you say.

Yes, I see what you're saying and appreciate you highlighting it.

Here's the good thing about guilt: You only feel guilt in relation to someone or something you care about.  If you feel guilt about yourself, that means you care about yourself.  That is a great place to start your work.

And you should care about yourself.  There is nothing wrong with that.  

This is one of many things that I know rationally, but have a hard time connecting with emotionally and (most importantly) being able to internalize.  I'm just not sure what the disconnect is there.

Try to have grace and understanding for yourself.  Based on your words, it seems like you think you should have known better than to do what you did.  But we don't know all those things in advance.

Try to be kind with yourself.  Instead of beating yourself up over not recognizing when your crossed that line, remember that your are a person who wanted to love and be loved and you were attempting to do that the best way that you could with what you knew at the time.

Yes, my T has worked with me on this... .she's very good at countering those thoughts (like "I should have known") when I put them into words, and at helping me understand the choices and the context of the compromises I made.  It has been three weeks since she started maternity leave, and it's the longest I have gone without her support since I started therapy almost a year ago.  I miss working with her, but it really helps to have this community.

mw