Is this a hallmark effect of BPD/NPD on partners?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I have not posted for a while, having to focus on job searching in order to get out of the situation I am apparently stuck in.

The saga continues, however, with behaviors unbelievably self-absorbed from my spouse, and today it is just too much to keep to myself.

This is the thing that gets me to feel I'm going crazy.

I am intensively looking for work, but results are not coming forth fast enough and the financial support from her has been at best unstable so far, provided with dramatic statements, blaming, threats and character attacks. This month's money is becoming alarmingly sparse. Understanding clearly that I am not in a normal relationship here, I have opted to not confront anymore and to try to address my needs outside of the relationship as much as I can. However, there are serious blockades on this road, since I am not even eligible for government assistance programs.

My spouse, who has already threatened many times to divorce or to call immigration to tell them that she is not sponsoring me anymore, has also seen a few divorce lawyers last year and this year in the spring. Her new posturing now is she is saying that she doesn't have any money. But last month she went on a trip with a friend for a week in a foreign country. The 'no money' in my understanding is a total bluff on her part, but she seems to believe that I cannot do anything about it, therefore ignores me blatantly.

Because there are contingencies for her too when she shares her money month to month with me, I can relate to her feeling like she cannot do as she pleases just the same as if she were not married. Considering her condition, I can see how she does feel frustrated, and how extra difficult it may be for her to manage her frustration. So I try to let it go a little, to give her a chance to see the same than what I see about our couple's true expenses. I also agree with her that I should earn money and expect that this particular type of pressures will ease once I have income. I also expect that in turn her condition may ease as well. Not that I agree with having to go through all of that extra drama, nor with the idea that I should work any type of jobs just because it incurs extra expenses on her part. She has a comfortable lifestyle, and spends a lot on marijuana I'm certain.

So now, this month's rent and bills are due, I have a roommate with me who will pay half of the rent on time, and no money in the bank. And that's not even talking about foods for me.

Nothing.

I had, decided, to not 'remind' her this time. In part because I wanted to see the extend of her disconnection with what I call 'reality'. She is my sponsor for immigration through marriage. In part also, I am trying to manage as much of my needs as I can without involving her, as I tend to want to reduce contact to a minimum. Let's say one of her saddening arguments was that I always need money from her when we are sweet to each other, and that makes her feel like I am using her for her money. Well... .I am trying to let her see the situation on her own a little. We are a married couple... .

For two weeks now I have had my bank account empty. This week I had to run around town to try to find help for food. I am not eligible for government help. I am still continuing to do all I can to find work, and I am now having to put in considerable amount of time to walk to different places now to get to 'food pantries' I can find.

In the meantime she calls and tells me that now she is thinking of coming to visit in the city. Good. She goes on and on about getting what it takes to transplant some plants I had picked up at a neighbor's two months ago. By now one of the plants is almost dying in the water bucket. She'll go to Walmart to get the stuff for the plants. OK for me, but not fantastic. But she doesn't ask if I need anything from there while she's going. I know this is on purpose of her part. Not good. She's done similar omissions in the past.

She is wanting to come, fully ready with the plants stuff, and than has one of her 'small incidents' that puts her out of commission (stretched an ankle? can't walk? had a bad night!) for a couple of days. I don't say a word about needing money. She knows perfectly that I don't have a job yet, how much she has sent last time and when, and how much I need her to send every month to cover the apartment expenses and my food. It's not adding up.

Instead, she is calling me and is sweeter than ever, and says that she loves me and misses me. Guess what?... .This stirs my anger to the roof.

To be clear, I did not react on the phone. There were several calls, some with messages, most as sweet as can be. I did take care of not answering the phone unless I could manage to keep my feelings out of the conversation. I did my best to move the conversations to a level I could manage, but inside I feel like I am going to explode.

So today, she calls again. One of her friends who lives in the city went to visit her for a few days. I noticed that the friend, who has a car, did not offer me a ride.  The friend is going to visit my spouse for herself and doesn't want to have to get involved into our relationship. That's OK.  But the fact that I don't have a car makes it the more difficult for me to just watch and say nothing. If I had a car I would probably drive there and we would have a serious discussion about money. I would probably also be in a normal marriage.

What I have is not a normal marriage.
That's not what I want.

But even if she knows all about this relationship not being what I want, even if she knows that I know that she knows, it affects nothing in her. Not a breath of emotions.

She is now having company, and feels close to me at some point and calls me. Chit chat.
Than she asks me how I am doing. And this is where my gasket wants to blow. I answer 'so so, not so good. I don't have any good news yet. Nothing yet.' She does not ask me more, does not validate my feelings, doesn't even think about saying she will put money in my account, or we will talk about it on Monday. She says that she has company on the porch and she was leaving them alone to come to check on me how I was doing, 'if everything was OK'.

It's Friday night, she just had a massage, she is done for the day, and we don't talk about the difficult stuff in those times. She only calls than. The worst time to talk about money woes. And so she goes on, 'Well I just wanted to make sure everything was OK. Bye bye now! Talk later!... '

Now. Normal couples may do that. Don't get this wrong. If this were a normal couple she would have at least offered a bit of warmth and encouragement, than said something about a time in the near future where we could talk about money for this month. Or we would have had a long term budget with automatic deposits every month and no need for all of this stress. This is not a normal couple. This is the case of someone who is strategic about her calls and what she says and in front of whom.

If I was my old self, I would have simply called her back up and said 'It didn't feel good to me that you just talked like everything was OK when I just had told you that I didn't feel so good, I didn't have results yet, and you knew you didn't deposit enough money in my account for all of the expenses this month.' We would have had to talk about this. But this is not what can happen and I know. She seems to count on that now.

An adult type exchange is one where we both discuss of a budget that included/ includes my needs as well as hers. But this is nonexistent in this situation. She's wrapped up into a specific scenario, and I feel like I am a prop in that scenario. No interest there to know what's true. As if my presence would be accessory.

Seen from the outside, one could say I am being the one who created this dynamic by letting her get away with it. I am fully aware that this can be seen that way. But if I confront, which would be in this case the appropriate thing to do in a normal situation, I will trigger a whole set of events, and she can use her friends present in the background as witnesses, where only her version of the facts is supported. I am alone here on the other side of this. No doubts, she is strategic and enjoys the easy power in this situation. She seems to feel safe acting that way.

In my experience, it's almost as if I would need another spouse to satisfy my own needs, so I could continue with the everyday banter with her, the way she approaches me, perfunctorily ignoring my needs. She invited me to marry her two years ago, says she misses me, says sweet things.

It's bewilderingly lonely.

I need to post here for support for me. Lately I was sharing in a support group that I am wondering about why I am having such strong needs for validation outside of myself these days. I didn't use to feel that way in the past. I would only be going on about my life and did take for granted that I was good enough to accomplish what I set myself to do. But now, I see myself more and more feeling a sense of dread for 'not being enough'. Naturally my life hangs on her support while I am getting on my feet. In this time and day, I don't have any other options. Because of the choices I made to join her in her country. 

Please don't offer comments on codependency, it's not helping.

What I would like with this post is to:
a) vent and have other humans know how I am feeling about this;
b) ask/discuss if this is an identifiable type of experience other partners of pwBPD/NPD have;
c) understand better what this condition entails, and find a different way to connect-in-reality, if at all I can, negotiate my needs, or want to again, when I want to again (thinking here of FF, who was noticing in another incident how much neither my spouse and I were protecting the relationship).

[braveSun]

I have not posted for a while, having to focus on job searching in order to get out of the situation I am apparently stuck in.

The saga continues, however, with behaviors unbelievably self-absorbed from my spouse, and today it is just too much to keep to myself.

This is the thing that gets me to feel I'm going crazy.

I am intensively looking for work, but results are not coming forth fast enough and the financial support from her has been at best unstable so far, provided with dramatic statements, blaming, threats and character attacks. This month's money is becoming alarmingly sparse. Understanding clearly that I am not in a normal relationship here, I have opted to not confront anymore and to try to address my needs outside of the relationship as much as I can. However, there are serious blockades on this road, since I am not even eligible for government assistance programs.

My spouse, who has already threatened many times to divorce or to call immigration to tell them that she is not sponsoring me anymore, has also seen a few divorce lawyers last year and this year in the spring. Her new posturing now is she is saying that she doesn't have any money. But last month she went on a trip with a friend for a week in a foreign country. The 'no money' in my understanding is a total bluff on her part, but she seems to believe that I cannot do anything about it, therefore ignores me blatantly.

Because there are contingencies for her too when she shares her money month to month with me, I can relate to her feeling like she cannot do as she pleases just the same as if she were not married. Considering her condition, I can see how she does feel frustrated, and how extra difficult it may be for her to manage her frustration. So I try to let it go a little, to give her a chance to see the same than what I see about our couple's true expenses. I also agree with her that I should earn money and expect that this particular type of pressures will ease once I have income. I also expect that in turn her condition may ease as well. Not that I agree with having to go through all of that extra drama, nor with the idea that I should work any type of jobs just because it incurs extra expenses on her part. She has a comfortable lifestyle, and spends a lot on marijuana I'm certain.

So now, this month's rent and bills are due, I have a roommate with me who will pay half of the rent on time, and no money in the bank. And that's not even talking about foods for me.

Nothing.

I had, decided, to not 'remind' her this time. In part because I wanted to see the extend of her disconnection with what I call 'reality'. She is my sponsor for immigration through marriage. In part also, I am trying to manage as much of my needs as I can without involving her, as I tend to want to reduce contact to a minimum. Let's say one of her saddening arguments was that I always need money from her when we are sweet to each other, and that makes her feel like I am using her for her money. Well... .I am trying to let her see the situation on her own a little. We are a married couple... .

For two weeks now I have had my bank account empty. This week I had to run around town to try to find help for food. I am not eligible for government help. I am still continuing to do all I can to find work, and I am now having to put in considerable amount of time to walk to different places now to get to 'food pantries' I can find.

In the meantime she calls and tells me that now she is thinking of coming to visit in the city. Good. She goes on and on about getting what it takes to transplant some plants I had picked up at a neighbor's two months ago. By now one of the plants is almost dying in the water bucket. She'll go to Walmart to get the stuff for the plants. OK for me, but not fantastic. But she doesn't ask if I need anything from there while she's going. I know this is on purpose of her part. Not good. She's done similar omissions in the past.

She is wanting to come, fully ready with the plants stuff, and than has one of her 'small incidents' that puts her out of commission (stretched an ankle? can't walk? had a bad night!) for a couple of days. I don't say a word about needing money. She knows perfectly that I don't have a job yet, how much she has sent last time and when, and how much I need her to send every month to cover the apartment expenses and my food. It's not adding up.

Instead, she is calling me and is sweeter than ever, and says that she loves me and misses me. Guess what?... .This stirs my anger to the roof.

To be clear, I did not react on the phone. There were several calls, some with messages, most as sweet as can be. I did take care of not answering the phone unless I could manage to keep my feelings out of the conversation. I did my best to move the conversations to a level I could manage, but inside I feel like I am going to explode.

So today, she calls again. One of her friends who lives in the city went to visit her for a few days. I noticed that the friend, who has a car, did not offer me a ride.  The friend is going to visit my spouse for herself and doesn't want to have to get involved into our relationship. That's OK.  But the fact that I don't have a car makes it the more difficult for me to just watch and say nothing. If I had a car I would probably drive there and we would have a serious discussion about money. I would probably also be in a normal marriage.

What I have is not a normal marriage.
That's not what I want.

But even if she knows all about this relationship not being what I want, even if she knows that I know that she knows, it affects nothing in her. Not a breath of emotions.

She is now having company, and feels close to me at some point and calls me. Chit chat.
Than she asks me how I am doing. And this is where my gasket wants to blow. I answer 'so so, not so good. I don't have any good news yet. Nothing yet.' She does not ask me more, does not validate my feelings, doesn't even think about saying she will put money in my account, or we will talk about it on Monday. She says that she has company on the porch and she was leaving them alone to come to check on me how I was doing, 'if everything was OK'.

It's Friday night, she just had a massage, she is done for the day, and we don't talk about the difficult stuff in those times. She only calls than. The worst time to talk about money woes. And so she goes on, 'Well I just wanted to make sure everything was OK. Bye bye now! Talk later!... '

Now. Normal couples may do that. Don't get this wrong. If this were a normal couple she would have at least offered a bit of warmth and encouragement, than said something about a time in the near future where we could talk about money for this month. Or we would have had a long term budget with automatic deposits every month and no need for all of this stress. This is not a normal couple. This is the case of someone who is strategic about her calls and what she says and in front of whom.

If I was my old self, I would have simply called her back up and said 'It didn't feel good to me that you just talked like everything was OK when I just had told you that I didn't feel so good, I didn't have results yet, and you knew you didn't deposit enough money in my account for all of the expenses this month.' We would have had to talk about this. But this is not what can happen and I know. She seems to count on that now.

An adult type exchange is one where we both discuss of a budget that included/ includes my needs as well as hers. But this is nonexistent in this situation. She's wrapped up into a specific scenario, and I feel like I am a prop in that scenario. No interest there to know what's true. As if my presence would be accessory.

Seen from the outside, one could say I am being the one who created this dynamic by letting her get away with it. I am fully aware that this can be seen that way. But if I confront, which would be in this case the appropriate thing to do in a normal situation, I will trigger a whole set of events, and she can use her friends present in the background as witnesses, where only her version of the facts is supported. I am alone here on the other side of this. No doubts, she is strategic and enjoys the easy power in this situation. She seems to feel safe acting that way.

In my experience, it's almost as if I would need another spouse to satisfy my own needs, so I could continue with the everyday banter with her, the way she approaches me, perfunctorily ignoring my needs. She invited me to marry her two years ago, says she misses me, says sweet things.

It's bewilderingly lonely.

I need to post here for support for me. Lately I was sharing in a support group that I am wondering about why I am having such strong needs for validation outside of myself these days. I didn't use to feel that way in the past. I would only be going on about my life and did take for granted that I was good enough to accomplish what I set myself to do. But now, I see myself more and more feeling a sense of dread for 'not being enough'. Naturally my life hangs on her support while I am getting on my feet. In this time and day, I don't have any other options. Because of the choices I made to join her in her country. 

Please don't offer comments on codependency, it's not helping.

What I would like with this post is to:
a) vent and have other humans know how I am feeling about this;
b) ask/discuss if this is an identifiable type of experience other partners of pwBPD/NPD have;
c) understand better what this condition entails, and find a different way to connect-in-reality, if at all I can, negotiate my needs, or want to again, when I want to again (thinking here of FF, who was noticing in another incident how much neither my spouse and I were protecting the relationship).

[AskingWhy]

BraveSun, you are certainly not crazy.  In fact, behaviours of pwBPD is often called "crazy making."

You are right to need a reality check because sometimes you begin to doubt your own reality.

My uBPD/uNPD H makes threatens to divorce me every time he dysregulate.  This had been going on for at least 8 years of a 20 year marriage. It's a common way for him to try to get the upper hand.  H knows I value the marriage, but after 8 years, I know he is just bluffing.

Either way, I am ready if he should serve me.

The hardest thing for me is to see my H is a very ill man.  He does not set out to hurt me, even though he does.

Withholding resources is a form of financial abuse, and BPDs can be very abusive.

I am sorry your are having a hardship now.     

[Harley Quinn]

Hi brave,

It's great to see you posting.  I'm so sorry to hear about your situation.  I can relate to the feelings associated with having to seek out ways to survive and feed yourself.  This is not something I speak of usually, but due to a number of circumstances I must rely upon charity run schemes to support myself and S4 when it comes to food.  It is really hard and can have a large effect on a person's self esteem.  I'm glad that you appear to have some sort of aid in your area so that you can eat.  Do you have access to medical services with your current status? 

I'm not surprised that you have strong emotions around the reason you are in such hardship.  I think it's amazing self control you have shown to not blow a gasket.  It must be so hard to feel dependent on her doing the right thing when it seems that is not her natural inclination.  It's incredibly painful for you to know that's the case.  Control is sadly very attractive to some types of characters and I've spent enough time with controlling men to know that hoping they will do the right thing of their own accord is not likely to be a successful approach.  How do you see this playing out?  What approaches have you tried in the past? 

I'm afraid I don't know your full story, but what is the reason you live separately?  Sorry for asking you to cover old ground.  It would help me to understand why you are not living under the same roof.

Keep pushing on the job front and don't give up.  It will make the world of difference to have your own income and you will likely find that is when you will see how strong your relationship is, when the scales are balanced more evenly.  Would you be willing to work any sort of temporary/part time job whilst you search for something in your chosen field?  Just to have some cash flow of your own?

You are very brave indeed 

Love and light x

[Notwendy]

bravesun,

I can only relate to this situation from having a BPD parent. My mother is most comfortable with having control of a relationship. Money is one way she does that but there are others. What you have observed is a pattern- your wife gives you just barely enough to keep you from homeless/starving. She also does this with affection- gives you some. Had she completely cut you off financially or affectionately you would probably not be in the situation you are in- given up and moved on.

It may help you to read up on intermittent reinforcement, it is the strongest form of reinforcement.

With BPD there is a push pull pattern and a deep fear of abandonment. There is also projection of uncomfortable feelings. I would be willing to guess your wife both cares for you, and yet, resents supporting you in some way and so the back and forth ( black and white thinking ) are both reflections of her feelings. I would also guess that she doesn't want you to leave the relationship ( fear of abandonment) or she'd go ahead and do it- stop sponsoring you, stop sending any support.

This is playing out in the month to month support. If she gave you a lot of money, you might actually be able to leave. The way she does it, you would not be able to do this as easily.

For my BPD mother, money is control. She plays this out with her paid helpers ( she is elderly and needs assistance ) . She plays this out with one of her children who has needed her- sends money along with "punishment" and barely enough so this child needs to constantly ask and be in need even though she could do more. With me, she used my late father's possessions. She won't give them to me because she fears, if I had them, then I would not come see her anymore, so she has slowly given them out one by one. Even though money is not the reason this adult child remains in contact with her, and wanting my father's things is not the reason I stay in contact with her, this is her fear, and she acts on her fears.

I think your wife is also acting out on her fears. In this situation, she has control, the upper hand. One problem is that you can not control her fears. Money isn't the reason for you being in the relationship, but she may have these fears anyway.

I posted before, the only way I could stay out of the financial bind my mother has was to not need her money. I hope you are able to find employment soon so that this is no longer a factor for you.

[braveSun]

I would be willing to guess your wife both cares for you, and yet, resents supporting you in some way and so the back and forth ( black and white thinking ) are both reflections of her feelings. I would also guess that she doesn't want you to leave the relationship ( fear of abandonment) or she'd go ahead and do it- stop sponsoring you, stop sending any support.

This is playing out in the month to month support. If she gave you a lot of money, you might actually be able to leave. The way she does it, you would not be able to do this as easily.

Yes it's like that. I also suspect she simply spends too much of her own money in any given month, relatively to her monthly income, so she cannot 'help me'. Shes does not want to rent the two apartments she has on her property, so she can keep them available for her friends and family visits. Those apartments cost her quite a lot, and the way she generates b&b income with them has not been sufficient for supporting both of us. It's almost as if I had invented the idea that spouses were supposed to budget together and manage together.

She uses the fact that I depend on her by demonstrating her enjoyment of the comfort and ease of life for herself when she is saying 'it's her money',  or 'I don't have the right to tell her what to do with her money'. I see a teenager's type of reaction in these ways.  I mean the back and forth. Like she would be caught off guards 'overspending' in my views. And I would be shocked that she would not have planned on having enough for the apt, foods for me, along with the rest of her monthly expenses, like any full adult would do. Or serve divorce papers and not drag this on. She is clearly struggling with conflicted forces. So she gets angry at me for expressing my concerns or needs. 

There are others around her who seem to depend on her generosity as well. She tends to keep up with them and help them when they have financial crisis. It's shocking to me that she doesn't see that her friends do understand that for the first few years of our marriage she will have more expenses because of me. She doesn't see it that way. Well she replied that she feels like she cannot help them the way she used to, so she gets angry at me 'taking so long'. They also all know my age, the job market conditions as it is, but my spouse doesn't have that knowledge because she being independently wealthy, didn't have to be in an employed position for several decades. I, in turn, feel shocked that she is not acknowledging that she doesn't know how it is nowadays. That she doesn't let it go. Hence the control link.

I see now that for her, 'helping' those other people feels better than being tied into being a full marriage/ partnership responsibility. This positioning feels less heavy on her. More rewarding. She gets more gratitude, more affection, etc... from whom she 'helps', so she prefers to create a situation where she is keeping herself in the 'helping mode', vice being a fully accountable partner. She obviously has a hard time getting these rewards from me in the current situation. So she'll drag it on until I get to feel 'grateful' for anything.

I overheard some friend of hers who was saying that 'She had done so much for me already, she's done enough.' This is not what I would say to a friend about her marriage partner. I would try to validate her frustration for sure, try to be there with her as a good friend and let her let her hair down, but I would make sure to be at least supportive of the marriage and steer away the second part.

I don't let this take a hold on me now. I've learned a lot in the last two years.

For my BPD mother, money is control. She plays this out with her paid helpers ( she is elderly and needs assistance ) . She plays this out with one of her children who has needed her- sends money along with "punishment" and barely enough so this child needs to constantly ask and be in need even though she could do more.

With me, she used my late father's possessions. She won't give them to me because she fears, if I had them, then I would not come see her anymore, so she has slowly given them out one by one. Even though money is not the reason this adult child remains in contact with her, and wanting my father's things is not the reason I stay in contact with her, this is her fear, and she acts on her fears.

I think your wife is also acting out on her fears. In this situation, she has control, the upper hand. One problem is that you can not control her fears. Money isn't the reason for you being in the relationship, but she may have these fears anyway.

Very true. Notwendy I am sorry that she uses your father's things as a token to keep you in contact with her. This way of doing things is so distorted. The whole experience of it does have a strong pull on your sense of self-worth, naturally, because you are entitled by birth to have access to your father's things if you wanted to, and she could not do anything about it if you 'stole' them from her. It would not be retribution, but I can see how she could attribute you with bad character motives for even just desiring having them. I see this as a strategy for covering up some type of deep wound in self, where she may have too much self-doubts about her own self-worth to just let you be in your own feelings for your father.

In the end, you have your memories, and that she cannot take away nor re-distribute to her liking. You also have your own personal traits of your father in you, ways of doing things, saying things, etc, and that either she can do nothing about it.

My spouse is aging as well, and I can see some parallels about the control you are mentioning with her housekeeping or yard help, yes. The parallels are about her overreaching to them, treating them better than she would treat me in general, because she is afraid to lose them if they find better opportunities elsewhere. She would tolerate some pretty disrespectful or intrusive behaviors. And take for them if I had a conflicted need with some of their ways.

I wondered once, in another situation with another older family member of mine, why she would say that she could give me $50 bills more often if I came to see her more often. I had felt great discomfort at hearing such thing at the time because she was a family member I didn't visit often. I felt a mix of strong guilt and also some shame for being needing money at the time (being so vulnerable to her saying that to me). I didn't go visit her again after that time. But I gave her more calls and was more attentive to her birthdays, etc...

I wondered if that was not some sort of indirect way for aging people to get more attention their way, and with a limited involvement in the world of work, one may be feeling more in need of having/keeping some form of ties with the younger people. Generally speaking.

[Notwendy]

That does make sense for an aging person. I think my mother was like this when she was younger too. I understand it is very scary to be alone and elderly- albeit my mother is in this situation due to her own doing- but I doubt she makes the connection.  My father getting older and ill was not something she had any control over, but when he was ill and we ( her kids) tried to help her manage the situation - the way she chose to do it left her alone. For us to help her, she would have had to also allow us to to participate in decisions and she needs to have complete control.

She is more generous with her helpers than she is with me. If a helper is strapped for rent, she gives them money, then acts insulted if they ask her again. She says she wants to help them but the help is a form of control. She gets into the same type of push/pull situation with them- some of them try to take advantage of her. She's a target in some ways- an elderly person on her own. But she also controls them with her money and if she gets angry at them, she paints them black and lets them go.

She is also uncomfortably generous with my children, sending them very large checks for birthdays, holidays. She has not ever given this kind of money to me. Even adjusted for inflation, had she sent me this when I was in college, it would have been a relief to have this go towards my education. I can see that this comes from a place of wanting a connection with her grandchildren- she wants them to like her. I have said the same thing to her- she doesn't need to send them money at all. They don't particularly want to be close to her but they would call her just the same- gifts or not. It's her own feelings that are the reason she does this. They are responsible kids and they put the checks in their college savings fund, so it will go to good use.

My parents had a traditional marriage of their era. My father supported her financially so this kind of thing didn't go on between them. BPD played out in other ways. So, in your situation I would say the same thing: there are many ways for BPD to impact a relationship and it is always a function of the two people involved. If you were earning money, it would likely be something else that you would be managing. However, since you are the one who is financially dependent- it is playing out this way but both of you are interacting in a BPD relationship. For me, not depending on my mother financially changed that aspect of the relationship- it put me in a better position to have boundaries. However she still has BPD and we still have a relationship to manage.

I think this is an issue for you: not being financially independent makes it hard for you to have boundaries with her and that makes it complicated but it isn't the only aspect to manage.

[braveSun]

Thank you Harley Quinn, for sharing of your own situation, and  for your encouragements. It means a lot to me.
  , and    for the little one...

It feels it would be so easy to slide into the position of my spouse regarding me and see myself that way. But in the end, there is nothing I can do with certainty that could stop her from feeling this way about me and my needs.

Your reading into this is right on. I simply need the normal moral support from someone who understands this, so I can shake those heavy feelings a little and get more fully invested into my own job searches, food searches, etc.
 
The way I see this playing out?... I simply just go one day at a time. I don't know for sure that she really can, at this point, offer me what I would normally need from a full on spouse. I sort of have postponed this decision for later.

I am now looking for a temporary job, not related to my field of work. Just to survive, yes. It took me a lot of processing to accept to do that. My anger is big. I know that by staying connected to people who see me for who I am, I will be able to stay on course. As long as I can get a feeling that I am in control of some part, I can do something and I don't feel too bad. Ups and downs are par with the course.

I have moved to the city a year ago for two main reasons. One is that I want to work in my field and there are better opportunities here. The second is because my spouse has been increasingly controlling with money, car access (lives in a small rural town), and growing generally critical of me, my needs, my values (sobriety), my contributions to the household (cooking), my chosen line of work, some boundaries I wanted respected in the household (her house) or between us. While these tensions grew between us she did let a friend of hers move in on the property four nights/week without consulting me. That friend is not supportive of our marriage, has tried to force herself twice into the room when we were having serious private conversations. In my understanding she has an agenda of her own. I just can't share a household with her.

Lifestyle has to do with it too. The friend is a smoking buddy, she has multiple addictions (alcohol, tobacco and marijuana), and is a bit of a bully. I tried to be understanding because she had been so supportive of my spouse through a major disaster without questions in the past.  I know, I was there, so I could fully understand my spouse wanting to support her when she, found a job in her own field, near the property. They have been there for each other over time, and my spouse has shared her house with her too plenty times in the past. So much that it appears that in this friend's eye, she sort of has seniority over me in the household decisions. It's not really what she says in front of me, but it's the way she acts when she is on the property that I can't live with.

So here for the friend.

Now it's better for me to remain in the city, while I can earn more and build a better life here for myself while I still can. The friend seems to enjoy being there a lot, and I feel somewhat safer that there is someone at the house with my spouse while I am here. That for sure doesn't mean I approve of all that is going on there while I'm here.

[Notwendy]

Looking at this from a behavior standpoint- people choose a behavior that works for them, even if it comes with a cost. An alcoholic chooses the effect of drinking even if it comes with a very high cost- their health, their family. So long as the benefit of the behavior is greater than the cost, the person continues to make that choice.

What your wife is doing works for her. It gives her a sense of power and control. It helps her manage her vulnerability in the marriage- she maintains a separate place, and also controls the money. While you are looking at this from a different perspective- you are married, this is no way to treat a spouse- she may also agree with that, she may feel affection for you but this behavior works for her and so she chooses it above all other considerations. She may even not be consciously doing this for the purpose of how it affects you but how it works to quell her own fears.

She's also taking victim perspective. The benefit of this is not being responsible and it also mitigates any feeling badly about it. What does she tell her friends- anything she wants to. "she's done enough for you" is something said from that perspective.

Because this behavior serves a purpose for her, I don't see it changing. I think you can expect living like this from month to month unless something changes on your part. She is gaining some way from this- probably the security that control brings. You are the one feeling the most discomfort. For change to happen, it would have to be on your part.

Likewise with my mother. I don't like to see her alone and don't blame her for being afraid and vulnerable. However, her need for absolute control and not being cooperative with others overrides the wish to not be alone.

[braveSun]

For us to help her, she would have had to also allow us to to participate in decisions and she needs to have complete control.

Yes. That sums it up for me as well. I felt like I didn't even have a word on how things were going to be in my own household mainly.

She is more generous with her helpers than she is with me. If a helper is strapped for rent, she gives them money, then acts insulted if they ask her again. She says she wants to help them but the help is a form of control. She gets into the same type of push/pull situation with them- some of them try to take advantage of her. She's a target in some ways- an elderly person on her own. But she also controls them with her money and if she gets angry at them, she paints them black and lets them go.

Looks like my spouse's sensitivities, yes. I don't think she gives them money for rent, but she keeps her appointments with them even if she has nothing for them to do, or if she tells them not to come, she's fearful they'll find another job elsewhere. She also doesn't like it when I talk with them, asking them to do something, or to do something differently.

She gave one man way too many chances fixing things in the house that he didn't fix right, even though he claimed knowing what he was doing. She's been inviting guys over to smoke marijuana on her porch with her while trying to attract contractors for various projects, and than would have to fire them for taking huge amount of time to complete the job. Some of them left before finishing. Some of them sued her for non-payment, which doesn't mean they were right for sure, starting with estimates that didn't cover the real scope of the job. That type of things.

If you were earning money, it would likely be something else that you would be managing. 

I can see that yes. It's a part of my difficult emotions, the realization of that. A lot to process at once.

[braveSun]

What your wife is doing works for her. It gives her a sense of power and control. It helps her manage her vulnerability in the marriage- she maintains a separate place, and also controls the money. While you are looking at this from a different perspective- you are married, this is no way to treat a spouse- she may also agree with that, she may feel affection for you but this behavior works for her and so she chooses it above all other considerations. She may even not be consciously doing this for the purpose of how it affects you but how it works to quell her own fears.

She's also taking victim perspective. The benefit of this is not being responsible and it also mitigates any feeling badly about it. What does she tell her friends- anything she wants to. "she's done enough for you" is something said from that perspective.

Yes, I see that. The behavior actually supports her addiction. It also brings her a lot of attention from various people around her. She is a popular woman.

But the victim perspective is something I think the friend is pushing onto the dynamic. The friend does not seem to see that married couples have their own rules, codes of ethics, conflicts, rituals, needs, boundaries, etc... There seem to be a lack of perspective there. I see it as a self-interested point of view into the situation, er the nice place in the small town near the beach, and the easy situation where she's not even in her own home (she owns her home somewhere else) and can reclaim the rights to openly 'be herself' as a drug addict.

One time my spouse (we were not married at the time) came to visit me in my country and while she was going through airport security, some drugs &/or paraphernalia was found in her luggage. She got denied entry into my country that day, and I felt a lot of hard feelings about it. Like abandonment. She had been shockingly irresponsible for her own age, etc... But once we found a way to circumvent the situation and have our time together somewhere else instead of at my home, I felt the need to establish some ground rules between my spouse and I regarding the presence of marijuana when we were together. This got her a lot of positive attention from me back than because the enemy in this case was the state, and we were getting around it like an escape game kids play. It was fun, but also upsetting.

So I didn't realize at the time that my spouse had a problem with bad judgements. I see now that I failed to see that she was in fact taking a stance of victim right there. Because for her it was denied comfort. There I was, being forced to be on her side, helping her against my very own values.

It appeared briefly to me than that she was not filtering things properly. Letting this happen was detrimental to our relationship. This was a behavior I shoved under the category of 'country people don't know how it is because they don't cross borders a lot'. While I thought she will never again do such thing, in fact she did it again later. And got caught again. And laughed about it. None of these experiences did have an effect of warning her. That's the aspect of my spouse that I now attribute to her 'lack-of-adulting', for a lack of better words.

I have noticed this way of relating the friend and her both share when under the influence of drugs. They lose their normal inhibitions and go into play mode, re-interpreting everything around them. As if then and there, nothing had any consequences. This quality in the texture of life comes along with continuous drugs usage. It's a learned mindset.

Than there's the expectation that everybody counts their blessings, that is when she, the friend, count hers... Yes, in a weird way, it must be working beautifully, having such blessings floating around in ones own house, no matter how we treat people!... .

But. My spouse doesn't like the victim stance at all. She throws animosity at anybody who is feeling hurt because of being in need of something and feeling hurt (by her) for that need to be denied. Yet, she picks those who are less fortunate than her for doing that.

That cocktail is a powerful and complex dynamic. It works for them for sure. And it can mess with you if you are not aware of that dynamic for sure too.
 

[braveSun]

BraveSun, you are certainly not crazy.  In fact, behaviours of pwBPD is often called "crazy making."

You are right to need a reality check because sometimes you begin to doubt your own reality.

Thank you AskingWhy, for sharing your insights. It's re-affirming to read your words. You have a good understanding of the way it is.

All of these behaviors are learned ways to get their needs met, but in a distorted and shallow way, leaving you in a position of need in some way. Hoarding power from multiple 'grateful friends' does help feeling safer in number for sure.
But intensity does not replace truth.

That's so important to seek contact with people who see this. So you can feel less vulnerable to the pressures, have more energy for your own tasks.

It's nice to be connecting with you all today!... I feel much better.
Thank you! 

       

[Cat Familiar]

It seems like you’ve been stuck in this unpleasant situation with your spouse for many months. I haven’t caught up with some of the details, but I assume that she came through with rent money so you didn’t get evicted a while back.

And now you’ve found a roommate to share expenses. 

But you still haven’t found a job in your field. Am I correct in thinking that you’ve been unemployed for a year since you moved to the city?

And now you’re starting to look for work not in your field, so that you won’t feel so completely dependent upon your spouse’s financial support.

I’m assuming that your spouse doesn’t visit your apartment in the city and that you don’t visit her at her place in the country?

And one of the biggest issues in your relationship is due to her triangulating with a long term friend who doesn’t seem supportive of your marriage?

[braveSun]

Thank you Cat for stopping by.
Your description is right. This is how I would describe things are in a nutshell.
There are more subtleties, but for the most part this is the broad picture.

[Notwendy]

There seems to be several issues: addiction, the enabling friend, and finances. Looking at this, the one thing you have the most control over ( and I understand it is difficult- as all three are) is finding employment, as the other two are your wife's decisions. I know you are working on this- and I think that would help the situation for you.

When there are many issues, sometimes it helps to look at them one at a time and work on the one we have most control over. I hope the job situation will look in your favor soon. I agree with looking at all possibilities- to get a handle on the financial situation. Once you get one job- you can keep looking at others and in your field.

[braveSun]

When there are many issues, sometimes it helps to look at them one at a time and work on the one we have most control over. I hope the job situation will look in your favor soon.

Yes. One day at a time. Thank you Notwendy.

I am experiencing a lot of anger. This makes it difficult to just move on. I felt the need to share my experience because this is a lonely place for me to be in. I attend a meditation group and share some of it with folks there. But it doesn't touch the depth of what is going on like here.

[Notwendy]

This is a good place to share. Anger is understandable. I think it’s important to feel our feelings. Sometimes I think we get focused on outside things and the other person but it’s inportant to pay attention to ourselves and what our feelings are telling us.

Meditation is good too - in the moment. I’m sure they’ve discussed not to judge our thoughts in a session. If your thoughts are angry ones - we’ll they are what they are. Meditating helps to stay calm but we don’t have to ignore our thoughts and needs.

Let your anger inform you. Yes we need to act appropriately when angry but it doesn’t mean we ignore it. We tend to feel anger when our boundaries are crossed and it can help us pay attention to them.

[braveSun]

Actually she did come over through the year, and I went to see her as well. Unfortunately not enough for me to find our balance back. There has been a couple of ST periods, one was extended (over our anniversary). That was painful for me.

I went to visit end of June. It was a difficult visit. And once the ST broke later in the summer she did not come at all 'because of the heat' but we kept talking over the phone. I put a quote there because those were her words. I didn't believe it was because of the heat. I thought more because of some kind of depressive bout she was going through. Like she would say that nothing interested her in the city and I would try to share stories of my walks about and some fun facts, but there was for her a consistent withdrawal. She would talk about how every time she comes over she has to spend money. I tried to validate her feelings about that. On the phone it appeared she felt better. She would send money for the apt but not come. At that time I had to find a new roommate and I did, but there was a month between the last one and this one, funds were tight. That's what I understood than. That's what I went with.

Last month she went on a trip out of the country with a friend for a week, even though she had been sick with an ear infection, even though she had told me that she didn't want to fly many times before, even berated me for suggesting we could use her points for her to go first class, since she didn't feel comfortable to fly in tight seats. She has a good amount of points, I only did some research. Was not hung up on doing it, only suggesting. We were talking about taking a small trip together to go north to break away from the heat. We live in a high heat location, and the hot season gets to everybody because of being so long. Well she went, without me. She left sick and came back sick and recovered very slowly. Once back home she felt she wanted to come visit me but couldn't come for weeks.

She started to be sweet to me again about that time. Said that she had missed our time together when we were traveling. I couldn't go to her house because of logistics, one of them having no car. Also was being tied into a few job applications deadlines. Nothing panned through of these, but I could not miss them. (New job opportunities came about since than. That keeps me sort of on my toes here in the city. Because I can't fail this.)

Once the high heat slacked off, and this was only recently, she has started to talk about coming. Than once she got ready to come, talking about getting and bringing stuff for the plants, I was already out of money for a while and had decided and researched food banks and made appointments to volunteer some places. I had decided that I was not going to wait on her anymore. She knows everything there is to know about my needs, the costs, the amounts, the due dates. There was a month I nearly got evicted, that's what Cat was talking about.
 

That's when I started to experienced this huge anger.  Like an undertoe.

[wendydarling]

I am locking this thread because it has reached its length limit. The conversation continues here

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=330940.0

Have a great day.