Money concerns

[Duckie3825]

I don't trust my husband with money. I'm the primary breadwinner in the family, and up until now we've had just joint bank accounts. A few weeks ago, though, we decided to split our finances, because our disagreements in how to spend and save money were so disparate. He would use his own bank account with an allowance of sorts and his own credit card, and I would have no knowledge or say about his spending. My one request was that he doesn't go into credit card debt. Then last week, as we had another argument about money and talked about divorce, he took half of the money out of our joint account (an account that is for our whole family, including our 2 small kids) and put it in his own account. I have no idea how much is still left in this account, but I've resigned myself to thinking that none of it will return to the family account any time soon, if at all. It's not unimportant to point out that he just came back from a 6 day vacation alone to Aruba.

This morning, he demanded to have total control of 50% of our (my) retirement accounts. I told him I didn't think that was necessary, but certainly we could discuss the investments in the retirement funds. He said it was necessary for him to have total control of 50%, because that's what would happen in divorce and because it was my idea to split the finances in the first place, and I can't have it both ways. I refused, and he told me I treat him like a child and that he hates me, and now he's moving out because he can't stand my energy of "arrogance and unexamined privilege."

My nerves are shot. I've since changed the passwords on all my accounts, and switched my direct deposit to a personal account, as well as important monthly automatic debit payments for the family. I'm aware that doing these things will likely be the nail in the coffin of our marriage. And I'm so, so sad for our 6 year old daughter especially, who has really been trying to keep us together. I love my husband, but I just think these money issues are destructive.

Any advice on how to further protect myself and my children?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[WitzEndWife]

Ugh, I feel your pain. I, too, am the primary breadwinner (really the only breadwinner), and my husband is terrible with money. Luckily we only have a joint savings account that doesn't have much in it (due to his reckless spending). Basically, I have set the boundary that I wasn't going to cover his credit card (as in, the things he spends on himself), and if he wants me to spend money on something "we" need, I am the gatekeeper of those funds. I would not trust my husband with the money I've earned. In a divorce, yes, they're technically entitled to 50% of whatever you have acquired during the marriage, but if you can also itemize and prove you've paid for the lions' share of everything, then sometimes you can get away with not giving as much.

[AskingWhy]

Duckie, get an attorney--now.  Do not tell your H you are doing so.  Go alone.
  
Laws on community property and income vary from state to state, so it's important to know your rights.

Get all of your bank receipts in order and present them to the attorney:  pay slips, deposit slips, all of your personal and joint accounts.  You may have to hire a forensic accountant to verify you are the main breadwinner.

The trip alone to Aruba is a red flag--a huge red neon sign.  What was he doing there alone?

You are suffering financial abuse.  You know the nail in the coffin might be coming, but you need to protect your children's future and your own.  Keep in mind that the expenditures made by your H may be considered joint if income is pooled.  Your H can single-handedly ruin your personal credit.

I separated finances from my uBPD/uNPD H within one year of our marriage.  It was the best thing I ever did.  We initially had joint accounts.  I recall being a young newlywed and buying a silk nightie to delight my new husband. I held up the gauzy garment from its box.  Rather than showing delight, my H sniffed and said,  "Hmmm. How much did that cost me?"   No words of delight.  No comment on how much he'd like to see me in it.  Granted, I had a full-time good-paying job of my own.  After that, I immediately split finances.

In times of heated arguments, my own H would threaten to burn the house down so I would not get half of the proceeds from the sale of the house.  He has also threatened other financial damage to me.  He makes a good income and buys himself new cars and fine things, and also for his children by his X W, while giving me only trinkets.

Please seek an attorney so you can know where you stand.  If you are not in therapy, find a good therapist who knows PDs so you can have peace of mind.  

[Notwendy]

Unfortunately, money issues are common with BPD relationships.

I agree with the advice about seeing an attorney- this doesn't mean you are getting a divorce, but you are seeking information about how to keep your financial situation safe. I grew up with money issues between my parents. My father earned the money but BPD mother's spending ( and my father allowed it) got us into debt. I have also had money arguments in my marriage but thankfully not as destructive as some. This is a serious issue and you do need to protect your finances.

Asking Why- if my H said that after buying a sexy nighty, I think I would have thrown it at him and walked out of the room and returned it. Then bought a really ugly flannel nightgown and granny pants- and that's all he'd have seen. I don't blame you for being angry at that.

[SweetCharlotte]

if my H said that after buying a sexy nighty, I think I would have thrown it at him and walked out of the room and returned it. Then bought a really ugly flannel nightgown

Chuckling — my uBPDh likes flannel.

It's true that the solo trip to Aruba is a red flag. Have you researched the circumstances? Might be a good idea.

Another red flag is asking for joint control over your retirement account(s). These accounts are usually individual, not joint, until a divorce or separation begins.

In our r/s (a commuter marriage of 9 years; no children in common, but I have 2 from before), we have never had a joint bank account. I make about 20% more per year than he does, and I pay all the expenses for my kids and home (he benefits from the tax break of having my kids as his dependents, though he doesn't support them). He pays for his living expenses and past debts (he has hefty credit card debt, educational loans, and up until recently, back taxes).

If our resources were pooled, my anxieties would have been worse. As it is, I worry about his fluctuating credit card debt. He doesn't report to me on his financial status. Only in the past two years has he started to give me his forecast of when each debt would be paid off. We have other problems, but the separation of our finances, plus his relative lack of interest in taking or using my money, means that conflict over money is not a big part of what now has me on the Undecided Board. Good luck!

[Radcliff]

You've got a tough situation.  I'm not so sure I'd advise beating a path to a lawyer's office just yet (I've advised other members to do this, but my hunch is that it's not the most productive focus of your energies right now.)  Boundaries are a big issue here.  To learn more about boundaries, you might want to visit this page on setting boundaries.  Control is also a big issue.  With the information you've provided, your husband's behavior doesn't seem abusive, it seems more like the behavior of an irresponsible teenager, as if you've got more of a parent-child relationship on issues of money.  Is that how it feels to you?  Before I go any further, I want to make sure I'm on the same page as you... .

RC

p.s.  Let me offer one specific suggestion, though.  Making regular monthly contributions to 529 college savings plans for your children might help in a couple of ways.  It'd constrain the budget, leaving less loose money around to be spent.  And if you were the custodian it would put the money in a protected place, giving you some peace of mind that the important goal of educating your children wasn't threatened.

[Duckie3825]

Thanks for your thoughts. I think you’re right on when you describe the financial relationship as his being an irresponsible teenager. That’s a point my h always harkens back to when we argue, that I treat him like a child.

That being said, since I last posted, things have escalated. A few days ago, he asked me to give him full control of 50% of my retirement funds. Wanted me to put them under his name. When I refused, he again became enraged, saying I was a hypocrite because I wanted to divide our finances, so that should mean dividing all of our finances. If we get divorced, i understand that assets are split 50/50. I will follow that when we divorce. But I’m not giving him 50% of my retirement funds now. My theory is that he’s burned through the half of our savings he took two weeks ago and now is desperate for funds.

Just last night, he packed up some stuff and stayed somewhere else. I don’t know where, as I said I don’t think he has any money. I worry about an accruing credit card debt, but I don’t think there’s anything I can do about it.

He’s told me that I can have full custody of the kids and that I can now take care of childcare. Said I can serve him papers when I’m ready. I will do everything I can to assure our kids continue to have a relationship with their father, but in my opinion, he’s mentally unstable. And interactions with me just make it worse.

Thanks for your advice about the 529 plans. We’ve been doing that consistently. And to his credit, even in all that we disagree on about money, we agree about saving for our kids’ funds. I know he loves our kids. It’s heartbreaking that he would even consider, let alone offer, full custody to me.

[SweetCharlotte]

Duckie, I am so sorry to hear this. Yes, you are right not to hand over anything to him ahead of the divorce/separation reckoning. I would act fast to make sure you will not be responsible for any debts he is racking up.
Hang in there. 

[Radcliff]

Hold firm on the IRAs.  Appeasing him in that way would not solve the problem.

The parent-child dynamic is typically fed from both sides.  When one of us takes on one role, it almost forces the other into the other role, unless they work hard to overcome it.

pwBPD can be overly fearful and read us as sinister and controlling when we are just trying to keep things from going to hell in a handbasket.  Ironically, as things get more out of control, we can become more controlling, which feeds the conflict.

With the IRAs, try the S.E.T. (Support, Empathy, Truth) approach, and try not to “justify, argue, defend, or explain” (JADE).

The most urgent priority is to tone down the conflict.  Validating his emotions is an important tool.  To learn more about validation, take a look at this excellent page on how to validate and avoid being invalidating.  Even if he is taking a totally illogical and unreasonable position, try to identify what his emotions are.  He is really feeling them, they are genuine, and acknowledging them and supporting him can help.

Sometimes when we try to construct a plan that eliminates all risk, we get such a storm from our pwBPD that more damage is done than if we'd accepted a less extreme plan that allowed that some things we didn't like were going to happen, yet still protected the vital priorities.

When it comes to financial security, do you have a good idea of your vital priorities, and what order they are in?  Any thoughts on how much "out of control" stuff you'd be willing to come to terms with?  Following that, you may be able to come up with a financial arrangement that you both can work with.

Getting rational agreement from him is a nice idea, but it may well not happen if it's hard for him to discuss these issues.  It may end up with you doing a combination of listening to his feelings, holding firm on some boundaries, and easing up on the control in other areas, without the business-like meeting and agreement you might prefer with a more rational partner.  The final arrangement may take shape organically, without explicit agreement on the whole.  You'll want to have a big picture in your head, but between the two of you, evolve towards your plan one bit at a time, and try to remain flexible.

It seems like the feeling of being out of control of the finances is distressing to him.  Not only is he a pwBPD, but he's a guy.  To lower the conflict you're going to need to address that.  Can you think of ways to lessen these feelings while not giving away the farm, so to speak?

RC

[Duckie3825]

Thank you for this thoughtful advice.

Since my last post, there’s been another complete turn around. Now my h says that I can keep everything, I owe him nothing. He’s extricating himself from all connections to me and told me he’ll await my serving him divorce papers. Somehow my not handing over the retirement funds has been converted in his head into my thinking I deserve everything. He told me I’ve “won” the divorce.

For what it’s worth, before he met me, he had a long term relationship that ended badly, and he sued her for a stake in the brownstone they had been living in together. In part, I think he’s enmeshed that battle with our situation, and he doesn’t want to follow that same path. At least that’s one theory I have as to what has made him turnaround.

I don’t know when or if this will turn completely around again, but I find it all very sad. I so appreciate the advice given on this site, but I think I’m the last person who can reach him at this point.

As far as splitting funds if we divorce, eventually I’ll draw up papers with a lawyer. I would follow what the law says about a 50/50 split of assets, but if he doesn’t want anything, then I don’t know. Perhaps his half of assets could go into a trust for our kids.

And that’s my main concern now. Our kids love him. And our daughter is old enough to articulate some of her sadness. He’s told me I can have full custody of the kids, but I want the kids to have a strong relationship with their dad. He’s FaceTiming with our daughter each day, and on the few minutes each day that he’s been in the house, he hugs her and says he misses her. It’s heartbreaking.

[GaGrl]

Is he thinking that, by giving you full custody, he won't have to pay child support? I can't see a judge letting happen.