How to divorce someone who can't commit to anything (2 kids)

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Dear all, this is my first post on family board on the suggestions I got for my thread on same topic in Conflicted.

The situation: While my uBPDw has shown some progress in the last few months, the simple fact of her utter unreliability and instability in a marriage with two young children (S5 and D3) has made life more and more unbearable for me. She sometimes drinks to excess and nearly injures herself if I don't take care of her. She is behaving at times extremely inappropriately at her new job, which makes me worry she will be fired, get us sued, or end up on the news. If I leave the house or room for a short while she sometimes hits our son. In general, she contributes very little around the house and with the kids after 4 years as a stay at home mom and now back at work.

What was once a "Do I truly love her?" question is now a simple "how do I make this happen?" question. This instability makes it impossible for me to live a stable life or provide a stable home for my kids.

We have had various discussions on divorce and separation and while she does not seem adamantly against it she has asked to wait to discuss it until she has adjusted to her new job. But I doubt more time to adjust will change any of the issues.  

The problem:

1) She cannot hold to things in most cases, especially a decision made in an emotional context. She may agree to divorce and separate living one day, then have a completely different view the next. If she cannot even honor a promise to show up at our son's US passport renewal application at the embassy, how can I rely on her to show up and sign divorce papers?

2) The odds are not in my favor legally if I pressed for child custody. I live in her country in Asia and lawyers have told me the mother is generally favored. To win this I would need video evidence of abusive behavior towards children and when it happens its completely sudden without warning. I believe a custody battle would be messy, unsuccessful, and emotionally destructive for all involved.

The question How do I effectively divorce someone who is not emotionally stable and remain in primary care of our children without an unwinnable legal battle?

I should note that I am dealing in the context of a non-US, non Europe legal system where power is  not on my side, so most legal suggestions may not apply here.

Thanks to everyone and looking forward to your feedback!

~RolandOfEld

[RolandOfEld]

Dear all, this is my first post on family board on the suggestions I got for my thread on same topic in Conflicted.

The situation: While my uBPDw has shown some progress in the last few months, the simple fact of her utter unreliability and instability in a marriage with two young children (S5 and D3) has made life more and more unbearable for me. She sometimes drinks to excess and nearly injures herself if I don't take care of her. She is behaving at times extremely inappropriately at her new job, which makes me worry she will be fired, get us sued, or end up on the news. If I leave the house or room for a short while she sometimes hits our son. In general, she contributes very little around the house and with the kids after 4 years as a stay at home mom and now back at work.

What was once a "Do I truly love her?" question is now a simple "how do I make this happen?" question. This instability makes it impossible for me to live a stable life or provide a stable home for my kids.

We have had various discussions on divorce and separation and while she does not seem adamantly against it she has asked to wait to discuss it until she has adjusted to her new job. But I doubt more time to adjust will change any of the issues.  

The problem:

1) She cannot hold to things in most cases, especially a decision made in an emotional context. She may agree to divorce and separate living one day, then have a completely different view the next. If she cannot even honor a promise to show up at our son's US passport renewal application at the embassy, how can I rely on her to show up and sign divorce papers?

2) The odds are not in my favor legally if I pressed for child custody. I live in her country in Asia and lawyers have told me the mother is generally favored. To win this I would need video evidence of abusive behavior towards children and when it happens its completely sudden without warning. I believe a custody battle would be messy, unsuccessful, and emotionally destructive for all involved.

The question How do I effectively divorce someone who is not emotionally stable and remain in primary care of our children without an unwinnable legal battle?

I should note that I am dealing in the context of a non-US, non Europe legal system where power is  not on my side, so most legal suggestions may not apply here.

Thanks to everyone and looking forward to your feedback!

~RolandOfEld

[kells76]

Hi RolandOfEld, welcome to the family law board! I've been tracking some of your story over on Conflicted, and I'm glad you've reached out here to get some more feedback.

My DH has two kids, and I entered the picture after he divorced the kids' mom (uBPD, lots of blaming/manipulative behavior, etc). So, in terms of the actual divorce mechanics, our story is a little different. I wasn't there through it, and DH had hoped that even though he and xW couldn't be married, that they could coparent amicably. So the legal parenting plan was one sentence that said that "DH could be with the kids whenever he wasn't at work." Guess how THAT went... .

I was around when about 5 years later, after "death by a thousand cuts" unilateral decision making by Mom about lessening the kids' time with DH, we got a lawyer, DH & Mom went to mediation, Mom did NOT enforce the PP decided on in mediation, and we were about one day away from the court date. Mom finally settled.

I describe all this to show what one route to, through, and post-divorce is like -- the route of being in the FOG, hoping that the disordered spouse will coparent effectively and honor the "spirit" of the PP. Needless to say I don't recommend "hoping" that disorder in one area of their life won't bleed over into how they are able to put the kids' needs first. I think you're seeing some of that already, in a way.

OK, so, our road was one way. (Short story, after all of that, plus adding a counselor for the kids, plus DH & I being in counseling the whole time, SD12 is doing a lot better, SD10 is hitting some of what SD12 hit at that age [telling Mom what she wants to hear], so some things are better, and there are still tough patches]. You're in a different position -- pre-divorce, recognizing times when there was FOG, knowing you would like to effectively divorce her, and wanting to stay in a primary role in your kids' lives.

A short "answer" to your question could be "make xW feel like she's winning while you actually gain what's important". I think I remember you mentioning in another thread that you supported xW getting her own apartment, and that that is looked upon either neutrally or positively in your country. That sounds like an example of "xW feels like she's winning and you get more time with the kids". So I would keep brainstorming situations like that.

I'd also read "Splitting" (about divorcing someone with a PD or who is high-conflict) and "Don't Alienate The Kids", both by Bill Eddy. Do you have a private e-reader? I'd probably read them that way.

I'd document all the time you spend with the kids and all the primary parent activities you do. Like you mentioned, you're in another country, so that might not hold as much weight as in some other places, but I think it would be better to have that info and not need it, than need it and not have it. Do you have a private journal or e-document?

What are your options for consulting with a couple of local lawyers? In the US, all you have to do is call, and (a) they immediately can't work for your stbxW (conflict of interest), and (b) can even offer some general advice/feedback over the phone. If you meet up, in the US, it might be only $100 for a consultation. Depends on the L. Sometimes less, sometimes more. You don't have to retain them, unless you want to. Just having 60 minutes worth of feedback on your situation and what strategies to take (play long game, rip the bandaid off, do X, don't do Y, etc) can be very helpful.

I remember you'd tried the singing group, and there was some drama from your W. So sorry she did that. I think I remember you felt supported by the group but realized you couldn't commit at this time. What other support sources do you have right now? Remind me if you're seeing a counselor at all? That kind of feedback can help in conjunction with a L (that way, you're not leaning on a L for emotional support, and the C can help you see through the FOG so you can focus on impartial strategy with the L).

This might be a lot right off the bat -- let me know if it's too much, or if there are more specific areas you'd like feedback on. Good job trying to find a way to do what's best for your kids. It might be a long road, but if you are able to take a little time at the start to strategize, you WILL make it through (or, hey, in our case, even if you don't strategize at the start, but I don't recommend that   )

kells76

[Panda39]

Hi Roland,

I agree with kells, I think my first step would be to talk with an attorney and find out what your rights are, do they also believe the system leans towards mothers, do they do custody evaluations in the country in which you reside?  How might they approach your case in terms of strategy? I am also concerned about her getting physical with the kids, what constitutes physical abuse where you are?  What should you be doing to protect both yourself (from blame) and your children (from the abuse).  Is recording someone legal there?

Also, document... .document... .document... .

Document the drunkenness, document any neglectful or abusive behaviors regarding the children.  Document your time spent with the kids. (Of course keep this on the down low and hidden). You are building your case with your documentation.

I assume that the court where you are would put the best interests of the child before you or your wife like they do here.

Panda39

[ForeverDad]

And don't consult with just any attorney. Most are comfortable being more or less forms filers and hand holders.  Court likes that, court would rather the parents settle the case and not make the judge issue decisions, rulings and get stuck in endless hearings and trials.  You need a lawyer who is experienced, assertive, proactive and full of strategies.  Select one who has experience pressing his case in hearings and trials.

We all know the old adage, women get the kids, dads lose their wallet.  It isn't true in every case.  Some say that dad's get discouraged by the social pressure and don't fight/struggle as hard as they could.  A self-fulfilling prophecy?

While of course you should use strategies and tactics that can get the best outcome for the children, take comfort that your good example over the years will help your children so much.  At least part of their lives will be spent with you and your example standing up for yourself and for them will be invaluable to their mental and social development.

Odds are that she won't be able to care for the children for the long term as much as the court might favor her, so you may be the one caring for them most of the time despite an order stating differently.

[RolandOfEld]

Hi Kells76, Panda and Forever Dad and thanks for following my story so closely. I really like the idea of making her feel like she's winning. I have Splitting on Kindle and have worked through what I think is most relevant to me here: the legal part is not as much help. Yes I have a thorough e-document of the past year of all major dysregulated episodes and irresponsible behavior.

I spoke with a lawyer close to a year ago about all possibilities. I am considering getting back in touch. The one good thing about this country is lawyer consultations are FREE.

In terms of support, I see a counselor from time to time who also happens to be our marriage counselor and my wife's counselor, so she is well informed of our situation and  is fully aware of my wife's condition, though she is not very willing to apply a label to it. But I can't afford to see her often, at most once a month. Beyond that not much support on the ground here. My family knows whats happening and is very supportive but they are 8,000 miles away and can't do much.

Forever Dad I might have to dig a little deeper for a lawyer who understands this kind of situation. I really hope a legal confrontation can be avoided, but I should face the truth that I have to be prepared. My wife after all is trying and she is able to talk to me about amicable divorce in the right mood. I am just concerned about what happens when that mood stops.

~ROE
 

[Panda39]

Yes I have a thorough e-document of the past year of all major dysregulated episodes and irresponsible behavior.

That's great, even if the legal system is different having evidence should help your case.

Besides documenting what she is/isn't doing, also keep track of what you are doing with/for your kids.  How much time do you spend care taking them?  Do you drive them to school/daycare, make their lunches, help them get ready in the morning, cook dinner, clean house, do laundry etc. In other words to show who is the parent that is being a parent.

Panda39

[kells76]

the legal part is not as much help.

That might actually be OK -- perhaps being outside the US, your strategy can center more around (again) how to make her psychologically feel like she's winning, versus using every legal rule and loophole to "beat" her. Good to think about/know ahead of time.

The one good thing about this country is lawyer consultations are FREE.

Awesome. That is really good for you.

I might have to dig a little deeper for a lawyer who understands this kind of situation.

What do you think it would be like if you asked the L you consulted with for a few recommendations? I.e., "If you were in my position, with a spouse doing X, Y, and Z, and with moms generally favored here, who would you recommend as the best, most assertive L for a dad?"

My wife after all is trying and she is able to talk to me about amicable divorce in the right mood. I am just concerned about what happens when that mood stops.

Yeah, that might be where your strategy is more centered around "catching your W at the peak of the good-feeling wave". More of a mental/psychological-focused strategy. Remind me if she is a person who wants to "find herself" or "be herself" or "not be limited" or "realize herself" or? Some dads here have xW's like that (TakingandSending, I think?), where the xW's are more focused on themselves in that particular way than on the kids, often (like FD mentioned) having the parenting time on paper but not really exercising it.

You can also think about, at this stage, whether it might work for you and the kids to have a "mom slowly fades out of the picture" strategy -- where instead of instantly taking legal action against her, you quietly "don't protest" if/when she spends more time at her apartment and not taking care of the kids. With you documenting both her actions and your hands-on parenting. Plus side might be she "stays on top of the good-feeling wave" and doesn't just fight you to be reactionary. Also more documentation of you being primary parent. Minus side might be continued legal attachment to her (I know you've mentioned being concerned about her lack of boundaries with a student, and whether that might come back to get not just her but you somehow -- worth bringing up with a L?)

Just more food for thought.

How are your kiddos doing?

kells76

[RolandOfEld]

Besides documenting what she is/isn't doing, also keep track of what you are doing with/for your kids.  How much time do you spend care taking them?  Do you drive them to school/daycare, make their lunches, help them get ready in the morning, cook dinner, clean house, do laundry etc. In other words to show who is the parent that is being a parent.

Hi Panda39, wow, I do everything on that list. My entire non-workday and the majority of my weekend is child / house care.

To add some context, my wife was at home with them for quite a few years and just went back to work recently. Her thinking when that happened was, she needs time to adjust to the stressful new job and anyway, its my turn to go through what she did. There is some small degree of fairness to this, since it was her who used to worry most about their doctor visits, eating healthy dinner, finding activities, etc. Now that person has become me, and I'm very proud of myself for assuming all the responsibility and managing it.

The problem was, I was always involved, and I had to work when she couldn't. And with two parents working full time and two kids now in school, its really a team effort, not "your turn". This is to the benefit of everyone. I've communicated this several times. And sometimes she is involved, but I don't feel its enough.   

Hi Kells76, I'd say the kids are OK for the most part. She was in a good mood mode yesterday and I noticed they were a lot more stable when she's like that.

To answer your other point, I don't really want a "mom fades out of the picture" scenario. She does love them very much, and they still adore and need her (for now). She has in some respects been a great mom. What I would more like to see happen is I have most time with them, she has her days with them, and I have a system in place for those times where she inevitably pulls out, such as some babysitters.

[Panda39]

Hi Panda39, wow, I do everything on that list. My entire non-workday and the majority of my weekend is child / house care.

I know I sound like a mind reader, but how do I know you do all of those things?  Because my SO did everything too when he was with his uBPDxw and for that matter I did too with my alcoholic ex-husband.  Having a dysfunctional spouse is like having another kid   So somebody has to do the grown up things.

It's hard and rewarding and I believe crucial for our kids that at least one parent, parent.  You are doing a good thing for your kids Roland. 

Panda39

[ForeverDad]

One of the insights we need is that it doesn't work well when we "tell the other parent what to do".  Well, not if it is getting received wrongly.  All we can do is try our reasonable best to communicate our comments as constructively as possible.  If even then she can't respond cooperatively then you have to examine your expectations and determine where that measures up to the reality.

An extreme example, but I recall now and then a member commenting, "I keep telling him/her to take his/her parenting time."  The problem is two-fold.  (1) We can't force an adult to do something, especially a disordered ex.  Besides, maybe being a less-involved parent is that person's comfort level.  (2) Considering the issues of the relationships, it's likely a less-involved ex is better for the children overall.

[RolandOfEld]

Having a dysfunctional spouse is like having another kid  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)  So somebody has to do the grown up things.

Thanks, Panda, boy is that the truth a lot of the time.

One of the insights we need is that it doesn't work well when we "tell the other parent what to do".

Hi FD I certainly made that mistake this morning but not worth getting into right now.

Another question I want to raise here is if I do manage to get her to agree to and go through with a legal divorce, do we need to separate our living situation immediately? I ask because financially it would be difficult (but not impossible) to maintain two separate apartments right away, and also difficult in terms of childcare, even though I'm doing most of it.

There is also the annoying detail that she is very afraid and unwilling to be home alone at night and that may prove a challenge down the line.

Does anyone here have experience in terms of living together at first after the initial divorce? Or does separation have to go with it right away?

~ROE

[Panda39]

Hi Roland,

Yes, I lived with my husband post divorce.  I wouldn't recommend it but in my case it was necessary too.

I was not married to someone with BPD, but was in a dysfunctional marriage with an alcoholic.  I made the decision to leave my marriage early 2009, filed an uncontested divorce in May, the divorce was complete in August.

We had a townhouse that we were upside down on during the housing bubble.  The townhouse went on the market in May.  I want to say we had a buyer finally in November, but this was a "short sale" and involved a much longer process than your typical home sale.  We finally closed and moved out in March 2010.  So we lived together over a year from when I decided to leave and over 6 months following our divorce.

I have always described this period as a HUGE lesson in patience and I was lucky he worked nights and I worked days so the weekends were the toughest time. 

Every Friday night wondering which drunk man I was going to get,  the one who was passed out (my favorite), the one who "loved me", or the high conflict looking for a fight man (what I usually got). 

He also became dysregulated and I was accused and questioned about everything... .I slept with our local college football team, I was a lesbian, why was I chewing gum, why was I wearing that? I never wore that when we were together, I was going to California to see Robert Pattenson (during my Twilight fandom).  The fact that I was leaving couldn't possibly have anything to do with him?

The other behaviors I had to deal with where... .the constant "why" was did I want a divorce?  "Why" was I leaving? Why, Why, Why!  Then there was the "I love you" when was the last time he said those words to me?  1993?  That I smelled good... .okay totally creepy. 

I know he was trying to process that I was leaving in his messed up alcoholic kind of way and I truly did not want to hurt him anymore that I had to.  So my strategy on those weekends was to take my son and spend as much time away from the house as possible. 

Again I only had weekend  interactions, I can't begin to imagine everyday contact for all of those months... .It was miserable as it was.

So yes, you could live together post divorce, would I recommend it no.  With someone with BPD that would be a double no... .if your wife is anything like my SO's uBPDxw you can expect major dysregulation.  That fear of abandonment is coming to fruition and it isn't pretty.

You could try staying, but my guess is you will likely figure out that it would be better to leave.

There is also the annoying detail that she is very afraid and unwilling to be home alone at night and that may prove a challenge down the line.

How so?  I see this as her issue not yours... .maybe some FOG here?

Well that's one Panda's perspective on living with each other post divorce.
Panda39

[ForeverDad]

I recall coming home to a house with every light in every room turned on.  That was before we had energy efficient LED bulbs.  Abductors and so many other miscreants were surely lurking outside according to her.

So we ended up divorced and then she didn't have me to protect her from all the evil outside.  Go figure.

As for your question about pros and cons of continuing to live together, with BPD in the mix it is exceedingly difficult, but ask your lawyer since your lawyer ought to know the details of the local divorce process.  For example, sometimes the ex tries to lure us back and sabotage the divorcing rules.  Would a surprise night of intimacy reset the clock if there are rules in your state specifying X number of months of no intimacy?  Also, being in close proximity also could give your spouse a chance to try to get a surprise baby and make a divorce harder for you.  (If you have no children, then a divorce would be far less complicated, so if there are none then better to keep it that way.)

[Woodchuck]

RolandofEld,
I don't have any advice for you but I can definitely empathize with your situation.  I am facing much of the same scenario though my children are a bit older, D11 and S14.  I hope that you are able to make progress.  I know it is extremely difficult to make decisions and progress in this situation.  I guess one thing that I can share that has helped is to make sure that you follow through with what you say you are or are not going to do.  I have found this to be very helpful and also extremely difficult.  Hang in there!

WC

[RolandOfEld]

Hi all and thanks for the excellent feedback.

Housing wise, I agree with all of your advice that we live separately. However, I might not decide to package the divorce proposal with the move out proposal. The first goal might to get the papers signed and everything processed legally and then from there move onto the living situation. I might have a better shot at her agreeing this way.

I think one of the keys is that I do not ask her to move out. I could propose we both move into new places or even suggest I move out. Because I think even if I moved out the kids would still end up mostly with me. Have to make things look like they are in her favor, especially since I am the one actively proposing divorce.

I contacted my lawyer about an appointment today. So there's not a lot I can confirm about the above plans until I've spoken with them.

~ROE

[ForeverDad]

The big question, since you know you can address a relocation question more or less logically, is this... .Can she afford to stay in the residence?  If she can't afford the rent or mortgage along with all the utilities, insurance, real estate taxes, maintenance, etc then she should not be offered the option to stay long term.

She — or you — may feel impelled to hold onto the residence "so the kids won't be impacted as much".  That emotional impulse is faulty logic.  Kids can adapt.  Besides, people move all the time.  The key is that they have as much healthy parenting time as possible.

[RolandOfEld]

Hi FD, yes, she and I are both capable of each maintaining a residence on our individual salaries, depending on where we live.

~ROE