Lies and manipulation are threatening my marriage

[Truelove]

I have only been very general in my past posts but this past week has been so painful and destructive, to the point I was ready to leave my husband. I love him so much but he was poisoning our relationship with lies and desperation.

To begin, we just realized recently that my MIL has BPD and we thought it best for her not to visit at the time. We at first thought to tell her we were having trouble and wondered if she wouldn’t mind putting of her visit till January (she wanted to visit on our 5 year anniversary ,how romantic). I told my husband it would really give us a clue about where she stood on our marriage. I knew she wouldn’t leave him alone if she thought we were having marital problems, she would be so excited and overjoyed at the thought of having her son back. We both, however, agreed to simply tell her we were so busy and didn’t have the days off, which was true as well. My husband texted her and she surprisingly said she understood and would see us in January, I was flooded with relief for no drama. My MIL started texting him daily asking how he was today, annoying and weird but not completely out of character for her. My husband is 45 years old, and she continues to treat he like he is a kid, off at college. Again, every thing seemed to be their norm when MIL s in an obsessive mood, until my husband lets it slip that he had told his mother the “we are having problems” story instead of the “ we were busy” story. Now her obsessive phone texts made sense! My husband had lied to me because he felt guilty about putting off her visit so he wanted to make her happy by telling her we were having trouble. I felt floored with the hurt of his lies.
   
My husband’s best man at our wedding was coming to visit the week after our anniversary, it had been planned for months, before his mom had asked to visit. We didn’t tell my MIL that he was visiting the week after she had wanted to come, she wouldn’t have understood why he was allowed to come and not her. What she doesn’t know won’t hurt her. Even though I was still very hurt by my husbands lies, we pulled together. My boys love Halloween, so we had been planning a party for that weekend. My last living grandparent and my aunt were her from out of state at the time and I was so excited they would be attending the party. Right before the party my husbands friend threw a tantrum by text saying he thought we would have made some special plans for him while he was here despite having obligations to our children and each other. We never excluded him and quite honestly, there is nothing to do around here. You make your own fun with get-togethers and family dinners. When you have small children your life revolves around them. In the end, my husband texted him that we do have responsibilities and he was sorry. My husbands friend apologized and eventually showed up to the Halloween party late and was rude and mopping throughout the night, to the point everyone was feeling unwelcome by him. I was irate!  I have gone through a tremendous amount of loss these past years and I cherish the time with my family and this man comes around and treats them bad, makes them feel uncomfortable because he expected something different out of his visit. The next morning I get up still angry at his disrespectful behavior and decide to go to my parents house with the kids so I don’t have to see the man child again and my husband can spend some time with the spoiled brat without interference from me or my children. I secretly hoped my husband would insist we stay with him and call his friend out for bad behavior, but that didn’t happen. He came after us when his friend left, two days later. I was hurt by his choices, but I wanted him to make the choices,not me.

Two days after my husband’s friend leaves, my mom informs me that my MIL had put a picture of my husband and our boys on Facebook. Along with the pic was a long paragraph of how she hasn’t seen her son and grandkids for two years (not true) and her next planned visit better not be canceled. Many people saw her post before she deleted it. We mentioned none of this to her, knowing we need to put thought into our next action. My husband has never stood up to her or anyone, for that matter. The very next day she texts my husband wishing us a happy weekend and hoping to Skype. Right after she texts, my husbands sister texts (she only texts him 3 or 4 times a year). She wondered how our Halloween went and wants to Skype soon. My husband and I are overwhelmed right now with merely our day to day and it seems to be one thing after another of trouble,manipulation and lies all orchestrated by my mother in law or my husband, behaving in the manner she has taught him. I guess I need a little guidance as how to handle my MIL and help my husband break the cycle he is trapped in. I am at my wits end. My husband has contacted a therapist but not made an appointment. His decision making skills are hurting our marriage and his inability to stand up to his mother.

Any advise would be appreciated. Thank you!

[Harri]

Hi Truelove.  I am sorry for the situation you and your husband are in and how it is affecting your marriage.  It is hard to break a lifetime of behaviors, not that that makes it any easier for you.  I hope your husband does go for counseling rather than just make a call.  It can be a huge help.  You may also want to get some counseling for yourself as it sounds like there has been a lot of hurt that has built.  Also, it is going to take time for your husband to break through the old behaviors and begin to de-program.

I understand you wanted your husband to choose to be with you and the kids rather than his friend but not being direct with him about your wishes is not going to help.  He can't read your mind and I think there are several who would misread your expectation to say no to the friend and go to you.  I would be one of those people.  If you tell me you are going and will see me when my friend leaves, I will miss you and feel disappointed but I would se it as your choice.  Does that make sense?

I am not sure how you can help your husband with this other than to be supportive and do what you can to take care of you.

[Panda39]

Hi Truelove,

What if I told you I don't think your husband lied to you.  I think your husband had every intention of telling your MIL the same story.  The problem is, that when you have a BPD Parent, you can literally be raised to not have boundaries with that parent... .enmeshment.

Emotional Incest... .
https://bpdfamily.com/content/was-part-your-childhood-deprived-emotional-incest

This is a behavior that he has had with her his entire lifetime.  He has been trained to do what she wants.  She is likely an emotional bully.  It has taken a lifetime to learn his current behaviors and it will take time and practice for your husband to learn healthier behaviors and the ability to set boundaries with her.  Is he seeing Therapist at all?  The extra support would likely be helpful.

Below are several books that you and your husband (if he's interested) might want to check out and find helpful.  When I found out about BPD the first thing I did was start reading and I'm glad I did.  It was really helpful to have a good grounding in BPD and it's behaviors.

Stop Walking on Eggshells: Taking Your Life Back When Someone You Care About Has Borderline Personality Disorder by Paul Mason MS, Randi Kreger

Understanding the Borderline Mother: Helping Her Children Transcend the Intense, Unpredictable, and Volatile Relationship by Christine Ann Lawson

Surviving a Borderline Parent: How to Heal Your Childhood Wounds and Build Trust, Boundaries, and Self-Esteem by Kimberlee Roth and Freda B. Friedman

I know you're frustrated with your husband but what comes naturally to you... .boundaries, is a skill that he likely does not have and will need time and trial and error to learn.  If he is willing to learn then have patience with him. 

Panda39

[Radcliff]

Truelove,

First, I want to say that I'm impressed that you're here and are committed to making your and your family's life better.  The good news is that you and your husband can make huge improvements.  Many of our members have dealt with similar situations.  Panda39 and Harri have some excellent advice.  In particular, the books that Panda39 recommended are excellent.

The recent experience with your husband's friend is a good indication that your husband has trouble with boundaries, and has a friend that is inclined to overrun boundaries.  Issues around your mother-in-law are among the toughest boundary problems the two of you will face.  It may make sense to start with some smaller victories.  In your day-to-day lives, what are some key points of friction?

RC

[Truelove]

Harri,

Thank you for your suggestions. I do think it is important for me to be patient in his journey to recovery. I get frustrated at him not knowing he has a voice and should use it to stand up for our family, but his voice, wants and cares haven’t mattered to his FOO. They matter now, to me and my family. Soon with practice, he will have a voice.

Panda39,

I did a lot of reading on emotional incest before I came to the conclusion that it was a lot bigger than that. I have, just today, got the book “Walking On Eggshells”. Anything that helps us understand her and gives us the tools to deal with her and in effect our emotions in dealing with her. It’s not easy having someone delight in pulling your strings, thought I try not to show it to her. Your advice as well as Harri’s on being patient will be a skill I will practice, knowing it isn’t easy to learn new behaviors.

Radcliff,

My husband does have boundary issues and due to his recent behavior, he is very aware of them, which is one good thing that has come out of the recent situations. He was lost in the FOG, not wanting to disappoint or confront his friend. He doesn’t fear disappointing me, this baffles both, me and my husband.

In our day to day life, the inability to simply make decisions is a frustration to me and this does cause friction. I feel the whole world upon me and wish he had the power to participate in these decisions. Reading posts here, I realize decision making does not come easy with those with BPD parents. I have found some books for my husband a few days ago on developing decision making skills, I’m crossing my fingers that they help him.


I thank you all for your reply’s, they have steadied my resolve to see this through with determination and patience. My husband and I will get through this and be stronger for it and in the end we will give my BPD MIL no power over our happiness.

With gratitude,
Truelove

[Notwendy]

My husband has never stood up to her or anyone, for that matter.

This sentence stood out to me. I understand the frustration this can cause- in a marriage and other relationships. Also, I can understand how this happens as I was raised to not stand up to my mother or say no to her. Although the focus is on MIL, I would bet that also your FIL enabled/enforced this as well.

As a child who grew up in this kind of family, I can say that we learn behaviors at a very young age that allow us to survive in such a family and these behaviors are shaped by the family patterns. They are dysfunctional behaviors- but in the family structure they have a purpose. I learned quickly that if my mother was upset with me, my father would be too. I was basically not allowed to stand up to my mother. I don't think I knew how to stand up for myself - how does someone learn to do that if they weren't allowed or taught it?

Also, look at your H's role models. My father didn't stand up to my mother and so I also learned behaviors from him.

While this may seem to be a daunting problem, it can be worked on and changed to some extent. If we learned dysfunctional behaviors, we can unlearn them and replace them with functional ones. It does take some personal work and it takes time. For me, the most helpful personal work was through counseling and 12 step CODA and ACA groups.

It is also not a linear process. There can be progress and slip ups. It is unlikely your H will get up one morning and be able to say no to his mother all at once. He may get it a few times, then slip, then get it again. May I make a suggestion? Don't make this about you and the kids. Don't take this personally. These are old patterns for him, and they are the "normal" he grew up with- 40 year old patterns- and his mother knows how to manipulate him. He may desperately love you and the kids and yet,  and also find these changes to be tough. Working on this takes time and practice.

I do agree with you that you need boundaries with MIL around your marriage. I would also be frustrated with a spouse who had this issue and was not working on it at all, but I would also have to know what progress looks like. I think your H does love you but that this pattern is difficult to break. I think that you can ask him to work on this through counseling, but this process is his to work on.

For your H, changing his relationship patterns in his FOO may come at a cost. When one member changes their behavior, often the first reaction is for things to escalate in some way, to try to get the family member to comply. The Facebook post may be an example of that. It is also possible he will be ostracized and shunned from the family. I now have boundaries on my BPD mother, but by doing so, I lost the relationship I had with my father and she painted me black to her extended family. I don't regret the decision I made to have boundaries but there was a cost to that. Your H loves you but it makes sense he also loves his parents and doesn't want to disappoint them. By setting boundaries, he will likely do that. It's a sad position to be in - choose your parents or your spouse. In families that are not dysfunctional we could have both.

Are you in marital counseling together? I think this would be helpful.

[Truelove]

Notwendy,

I couldn’t agree more in that my father in law is and was an inabler. My husband told me how his father discouraged girlfriends and I am willing to bet it is due to my MIL pushing her agenda to be the only woman in my husbands life. My husband has told me how she tried to sabotage every relationship he had including ours. My FIL generally does what he is told, like a good boy.

That is great advice to not take my husbands behavior personally. I must keep reminding myself that his choices aren’t personal  but a programmed behavior.

My husband has made an appointment with a therapist and I see this as a huge step for him. I insisted that he make the appointment, read or post on these boards daily and read some books if he is serious about our marriage and cutting loose of his mother’s unhealthy death grip. After the recent events, he is not only ready, but I think for the first time able to become his own man. He seems more aware than ever and I think it is due to this site. What a blessing it has been.

We aren’t in counseling, he is just now admitting the need for therapy. I think this first step will do a world of good even in our marriage. When he starts addressing his issues, I think a lot of our issues will lessen. If marital counseling is necessary, we will make that our next step. I love this man of mine so much that I will fight for him through thick and thin. I have my moments, mind you, where he tries my patience and understanding. He and our boys are the best things that have ever happened to me and I know, because he loves me that he will get the help he needs to take charge of our lives.

You seem to be a very insightful person and I thank you for your words of experience to help guide me.

With thanks for your kindness and understanding,
True love

[Libra]

Hello True Love,

I just wanted to reach out and tell you I understand how you Hs struggles have impacted your relationship.
I am more or less in your Hs' shoes. I have been trying to work through my unhealthy relationship with my mother since the beginning of this year, and my H and 2 children have unwittingly been taken along for the ride.

You have gotten some great advice from Notwendy. I am glad your H is on these boards as well and is getting therapy. Both have been very important in my road to healing. I could not have gotten this far without the support and understanding of my husband though. He was the one who gave me the final push and the belief in myself so I could finally stand up to my mother. But he has also been greatly affected, and very patient.

In our day to day life, the inability to simply make decisions is a frustration to me and this does cause friction. I feel the whole world upon me and wish he had the power to participate in these decisions.

It must be exhausting to pull the cart all of the time.   
I have the same problem as your H though. I will always try to sound off with my husband before making even the simplest of decisions. Even when the children ask me if they may do x or y, I will often redirect them to H. I think that, for me, the main cause is insecurity. I was not allowed to make my own decisions as a child, and if I did, it was often overruled, criticized or ridiculed. In some ways, I am even more indecisive now than before, because I've realized my own upbriniging was unhealthy. I don't have a framework to reference to. So how can I make the right decision? It is something I am also still working on... .

Unfortunately, this healing business is not a smooth process. For me, every chunk of memory, every confrontation (not only with the pwBPD, but ANY confrontation), and even every insight into my own self that drifts up out of the mire, requires a new emotional process to work through. I tend to turn inward during this process. I close up emotionally to be able to work through things. This is not easy for the people I most care about. I try to still 'be there' for them as much as possible, but I know it affects them. The patience, space and silent support H gives me enables me to move forward at my own pace, step by little step. I do not know how your H will react, or what his road to healing will look like, but be prepared for a bumpy ride, and try to give him the space he needs. I really like Notwendys advice: Don't take his behaviour or reactions personally. It is not about you. It is an internal struggle he has to work through to find his own voice.

I hope you keep posting when you are in doubt or need support.

 
Libra.

[Notwendy]

When he starts addressing his issues, I think a lot of our issues will lessen.

Yes, but in addition, the two of you have a relationship and each of you bring a relationship style to the marriage.

When I was dealing with my own marital issues, I learned some interesting things about marriage along the way. I was more than willing to look at my part- to me it appeared that I had the abnormal upbringing with BPD mom, and my H's family appeared normal to me. Also, during any conflicts, my H was quick to blame me for our issues, and I readily accepted that perspective, knowing how disordered my own family patterns were.

However, my H had his own set of relationship issues that also contributed to the problems.

I read many marriage books and some statements stood out to me. One of them was- we are attracted/and attract partners who match our family of origin issues in some way ( it may not be an exact match- but a match in some way) and through our marriages we play out these issues. This may sound a bit like doom- but the statement meant an opportunity for growth and to actually work these out with a person who gives us the potential to do so. It also meant- each person brings a set of  issues in a way.

One book called Passionate Marriage - which is actually about relationship dynamics despite the steamy title and contents - had a statement: we choose a partner with the same level of differentiation ( a term used to describe relationship skills/enmeshment) and then the eye opener: each partner thinks he or she is more differentiated ( less dysfunctional) than the other.

We don't see our own contribution to marital issues as easily as we can see the other person's. In my situation, I was willing to do therapy but my H was not. He assumed I was the cause of the issues in the marriage. His upbringing seemed normal to him. Compared to mine, it was. He doesn't have a mom with BPD and I do.

I saw this differently- there were behaviors on his part that were causing difficulty for us. I could see them but he didn't.

He resisted marital counseling for years but finally agreed. We had a skilled therapist- and I think it is important to find one who is skilled. If any of us made the statement- the other needs to change - she put it into context- if you see the issue in the other- you have the issue. Basically- we match our spouse- not in the same behaviors but in behaviors that emotionally match. The other one is- you can not change someone else- you can only change yourself- so each time she turned the mirror on me, I could see something to work on. My H's issues were his to change.

In time, I was able to see how we "matched" in ways and also how our family of origins match. It is still obvious that my family growing up was way more disordered than his, but his was not without some disordered patterns. It also isn't all bad- each of us took many positive traits and values from our families into the marriage.

Because of this experience, I believe that if one spouse has issues to work on, so does the other and that looking at the partner to change to improve the marriage isn't as effective as both people looking in the mirror at themselves. I don't minimize the emotional stuff he needs to work on having grown up with a BPD mother. He does need to do that work. Yours may be different- and even less severe- but any self work will also contribute to lessening the issues between you.

[lulubell2017]

Hello Truelove,

I didn't have the time to read all the answers that you received, so I'm sorry if I will be repeating some of what the others already said. I am a daughter of a BPD and what I can tell you, is that when you were brought up by such a mother, you usually do not know much about boundaries. I am now 34 and barely learned how to say NO a few years ago, and pretty much let people walk all over me for most of my adult life. I recently remembered that as a teenage girl, despite leaving my mother's house very early on, I used to listen to and feel obligated to obey to the people in my life whom I felt had the authority. I moved in with a boyfriend when I left mom's at 17, and I just kind of changed the person I was obeying, if that makes any sense. I was no longer doing what mom expected of me, I was doing what my boyfriend expected of me. Of course I had a way in which I could sense what he wanted me to do, and I still play very much attention at what people want of me even now, and I know what it is even when they don't tell me. You kind of develop a sense, reading their emotions, you get very scared when they are upset with you. I can still tune in to the emotions of the people close to me even now, I still get that very uncomfortable feel when my partner seems displeased by something (tho I made it an important point for me not to follow through with what they want, if it's not what I also want). Before my mother died at the beginning of this year,   while she was sick and dying, I still had the drive to obey her even when she didn't say what she wanted (actually, especially when she didn't, as it's easier to say no to what people ask of you with words, rather than saying no to what you know they want, but didn't verbalize).

I told you all this because maybe it can give you a little insight as to how it must be living in your husband's shoes. I don't think he wants to do anything to hurt you, he just doesn't know how to handle all this. He is used to, and will take a lot of effort to break the pattern of, walking on eggshells around his mother. If he feels like he has to walk on eggshells around you too, it will be like being stuck between a rock and a hard place. I'm not telling you this to make you feel guilty, I think that the way you feel is normal.

As for the thing with the best man, you could have been a little more assertive, and being assertive is good practice for any life situation. Tell him what you really want instead of hoping he will guess.

Being raised by a BPD is a difficult thing, and some children develop the personality disorder themselves, others somehow manage to come out just damaged in some areas but being good and reasonable people, and usually more empathetic than your average Joe. It's not always all bad, in the end

[Joha242]

My uBPDm (<-- does this mean undiagnosed BPO mother?) played a MAJOR role in my marriage and it was incredibly difficult. I was always playing "go between" between a difficult mom and a difficult husband (who is now an ex and I've finally recognized how similar they are but my ex has a ton more self-awareness and we are actually pretty good friends). Anyway, my mom was CONSTANTLY pushing boundaries -- still does -- and I was always in defense mode of trying to protect our family space. I know this was a MAJOR, UNPLEASANT, and UNWELCOME role in our marriage and I wish I had been better at handling it. I do, however, take comfort in knowing that I did the best I could, and I hope you can find that comfort too.  Also, one of my survival tactics (still is) is to stop being the go-between and to tell people that. 

[Harri]

Joha, yes, you got the abbreviation right!    

Also, one of my survival tactics (still is) is to stop being the go-between and to tell people that.

This is excellent.  Staying out of the drama triangle is important.  You can read more about it here:  Escaping Conflict and the Karpman Drama Triangle

lulubell you bring up a really good point about us kids of not even knowing what a boundary is or that saying no is an option.  And not just that but that trying to implement boundaries and saying no when you were a kid led to danger and was a threat to survival. 

[cClearly]

I did a lot of reading on emotional incest before I came to the conclusion that it was a lot bigger than that.

TrueLove,

Please do not discount the huge elephant in the room that is emotional incest.  BPD is bad enough, but when you add the mix of emotional incest, it becomes another ballgame.  Emotional incest is what causes the brainwashing and obligation that your SO/DH has to his mother and it is an absolute must that he see a seasoned therapist to work through this.

Also, reading suggestion for you - "When He's Married to Mom" by Adams.

[Truelove]

Thanks to everyone for their input, it is very valuable .  It is going to be a tough road, but we aren’t standing still anymore. My husband’s first therapy session is Friday and we are both optimistic. I feel like we are a team right now, more so than ever.  My MIL has still been working through every tactic in the book to make my husband be her obedient boy, but he isn’t experiencing the guilt that usually follows.  He is finally getting angry at her games, which is new for him. Everyday she sends a new text designed to pull him back in and he answers some with short reply’s and some of her texts he leaves unanswered. I continue to be frustrated by the guilt trips she aims at him, but my husband’s reaction to them makes me not feel so alone and have hope. I truly thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences in hopes of helping me through a tough time.

[Notwendy]

Sometimes my mother would refer to my father " he was such a good boy today" meaning he did her bidding. Ugh. My father was a grown man, not a boy. It sounded like she was talking about a dog. " good boy!". She would also say things like this to me " I told my FOO what a good girl you were today " if I ran errands for her. I'm a grown woman. She mostly also tells her FOO what a terrible daughter I am if I don't obey her ( which is more the case these days as she painted me black to them.

Even with all the work I have done, it feels really un natural to have the kind of relationship I have with her now. It is more healthy in terms of boundaries, but there is also the pay back. Families also exist as a system, and not going along with the family unspoken rules ( which are to be a good boy or good girl no mater how old you are ) will have consequences. In the black and white world, if you aren't the good boy or girl, you become the bad boy or girl and may become ostracized by some family members.

It really isn't you and your H against her. Be careful of the drama triangle. This is about your H growing to be a compassionate person with boundaries. It isn't a victory to be angry at her, it's a victory to be able to have boundaries with her while being able to withstand her reactions without it affecting his ability to be compassionate and not take on an emotional role on the drama triangle. I know this sounds complicated but it is better for me to not think of my mother as the enemy, or emotionally react to her issues, but to be able to stay calm when she isn't. Your H will get there but it is a process. He may grieve- it hurts to lose your place in the family. He needs to be able to love you and still accept that he cares about his mother. He just needs to learn boundaries with her.

[Panda39]

Yes, to what Notwendy has said.

I arrived here very angry regarding my SO's uBPDxw and it had been going on a long time and it had become toxic and not helpful.  Eventually, what the ex was doing began to consume me and my relationship.  I had to learn to let go, my SO had to learn to keep some stuff to himself... .we had to stop making his ex the center of our relationship. We had to stop feeding the drama. 

But I will also say anger can be motivating too... .I'm not saying live in the anger but sometimes anger can move you forward.

The keyword for you is going to need to be patience (not anger).  Your husband is going to do and feel a lot of things on this journey not all you might agree with... .he may make progress and take a few steps back before moving forward again.  He's going to need to process this and learn new skills at his own pace.

Don't forget the two of you as a couple, don't let his mother become the center of your marriage.

Panda39

[GaGrl]

Yes, yes, yes to what Panda said. I too arrived here angry at my DH's ex and the damage she had inflicted on him and the family and was continuing to wreak havoc.

I had to step back and draw some boundaries of my own, then let DH find his. I could support, but it had to take place at his pace.