Quick Question on how to deal with this

[Ruskin]

  Hi Friends, quick question if you do not mind,

This weekend I am supposed to be going to a small event on my wife’s family’s Side, it’s a celebration following a religious event in their religion, Divali.

Now as being on this board may suggest, I am that partner of an undiagnosed BPD trait exhibiting person, my wife.

Now the reason why I don’t know if I should go or not is, she has not really spoken to me in 2 weeks (despite us living in the same house)  It was following a major episode, following my approaching her and suggesting to her that we should go see the doctor about the rages and all the other symptoms and behavious…

Now she expects me to go, but I would feel a bit of a fake going along like everything is ok, when effectively we are at the most volatile stage of trying to get to a doctor and effectively in the middle of an unfinished conversation that ended 2 weeks prior! 

If I say that I am not going to go, it will likely unleash a fight, “you are doing this to punish me”, you are doing this as you hate my family” “doing this to show me up in front of family” but that is not the case, how can I go when she is giving me silent treatment and in denial and she will want me to act like the happy loving couple?

I don’t want to go as it will feel aquard and be a lie – but I have not make up my mind,

Can anyone help,

Thank you kindly
 

[Enabler]

Hey Ruskin,

Telling someone they need to seek professional help for a suspected personality disorder is always tricky ground. I don't know what the emotional environment was surrounding your suggestion was but even at it's most peaceful it's a VERY challenging conversation to have and ironically best handled by an independent professional.

However, here you are, what's done is done and now you're in the thick of it. I can empathise with your concerns about putting on the game face and going to the family event pretending that everything is okay. It's not ideal and may conflict with your personal values of living a lie... .now... .here's my view on this. OUTCOME ORIENTATED... .I'm not suggesting that you park you personal values of integrity, consistent narrative and truth, I am suggesting you might want to work out what is more important to you at this time, at this juncture... .hammering the truth and sticking rigorously to your values, or reducing/avoiding conflict in your relationship such that you and your wife are in a better place to make therapy more likely. You seem to have a pretty clear view about what will happen if you do not attend the celebrations, do you think she would be right in accusing you of punishing her by not attending?

I think it is very good to have a clear view of our personal values... .that said, I believe it is optimal to know when we are consciously being putting our values aside for the betterment of a medium/long term outcome. Being focused on the outcome rather than the micro narrative is a skill well worth learning for a healthier relationship with someone who exhibits BPD traits. At this stage you are in damage limitation, it's not about winning or losing, it's about making things better for everyone and starving the conflict of fuel.

What's your thoughts on this?

Enabler 

[Ruskin]

Thank you Enabler for your thought provoking points and question.

My question may have read as a little insensitive, i am nine years into the issue and they have not been easy, including a 4 year struggle to help facilitate help for other conditions.  Bit washed out by it all and the last few months.  The issues i have raised in other posts on this board and have received kind assistance.

Your kind assistance is greatly valued and just the perspective i need and i will give your suggestions some thought.  i am a bit apprehensive of considering the mid to longer term as the last few days has led me to think their is no long term.  Based on 9 years of knowledge of her and the situation, while eventually seeing a professional is quite possible, my wife has quite sadly demonstrated, from previous professional help, she is unwilling to take on the tools that her health team offerred her and does not practice such skills or attempt at managing her mental health.

I'm well used to holding the peace and putting my values to the side, might well be that i need to do this, help her enjoy her family visit

thank you, D.

[Enabler]

Thanks Ruskin,

Medium to Long term could be end of the week, end of the month. I see life a decision tree... .I used to be a huge fan of mapping out my life with plans about this that and the other many many years in the future... .my idea of 'the future' doesn't go much further than 6m to a year and even then there is little in the way of certainty with any of the outcomes.

Maybe this decision improves something in the very short term for you... .even if it is just a baby step in front of you that might make peace more probable. Take each step, each branch of the tree at a time and try and manage outcomes.

Consciously deciding to put aside your values for the greater good can be seen as weak... .but I'd rather see it as a sign of strength, strength that I have the ability to be dynamic for the greater good... .

EYES ON THE PRIZE... .whatever that is!

Enabler

[formflier]

How do you know you are supposed to go... if you aren't talking?  

Why not ask for her thoughts?  

Enabler has got you pointed in right direction.  One unaddressed concern.  

Why is it your role to "help" her enjoy a family event?  Is she not an adult that can sort that out on her own?

It's obviously "her" event... .so... ask for her thoughts.  Succinctly.  If she wants you to go... go.  If she wants to do her family thing alone... go enjoy yourself elsewhere.

Don't overthink this.  And if she wants to rewrite history later... .let her do that alone (don't listen or participate).

FF

[Notwendy]

Since BPD affects the most intimate of relationships the most, it is possible that your wife could behave differently with you than with her family members and acquaintances. She may be concerned about how her family will perceive things between you if you don't go to the holiday with her. It is possible she could act as if all is well between the two of you in front of them and then in private, be different. I don't know what her family traditions are but your not going might be interpreted as an insult to them or not liking them. I think pwBPD have a poor sense of self and easily feel shame.

How can she act like this and then act as if nothing has happened? I have seen this many times. I call it the dry erase board apology- ie no apology- just like if you write something on a dry erase board and poof- it's all gone. Trying to discuss it, or get an explanation feels futile. I think there are several reasons for this. One is the tendency to project the bad feelings - once they are out, the person w BPD does feel better but you don't. There may be too much shame to manage an apology or they may forget- rewrite history. I don't think there is much we can do to change this method of coping for them and it helps to not take it personally.

I think it does help to not be reactive to their actions and try to stay grounded in your own choices no matter what they do. I try to be mindful of the Karpman- drama triangle model. I find that pwBPD tend to be in victim mode and act from there. Your wife isn't speaking to you because of something that she feels a victim about. ( you telling her she needs help was interpreted as hurting her- whether you meant it to hurt or not). She then feels justified in her not speaking to you. If you don't go to the holiday, she won't connect this to this action. I personally think "victim" mode makes this difficult. If you decide to not attend the holiday because of her not speaking to you, you are being reactive to her behavior- you are taking victim position on the triangle- she hurt your feelings, I'm not going. Reacting perpetuates the drama.

Make the choice to go or not on the basis of your own wishes- no matter what her behavior. Much like Enabler said- keep an eye on the goal- your goal. Also tune into your feelings. Do you want to still go as a family? Do you think it is important to go together- part of your values? Or do you not want to go and will you feel resentful if you do go because you don't want to? Do you not want to go, but are you willing to do this as a family occasion? Even if you don't want to go but you know it will be a cause of much difficulty- then at least you understand your reasoning- to not start a huge conflict in your marriage right now. Whatever your choice is, look at it as a choice you make, not a reaction to her not speaking to you.

[Enabler]

Great points Notwendy,

Is there a reason why you might want to go to this family event on it's own merits? Some of these big family parties can be fun. If this is what you decide to do, maybe determine how you want to play it... .release yourself from some of the FOG maybe associated with previous family events, maybe you attend with constant fear that something is going to kick off, that you're going to have to behave in a certain way to appease your W's moods... .what if you just enjoyed yourself, behave in a way YOU want to behave in the full confidence that you are not behaving inappropriately. I'm not saying ignore your W... .just reach a natural state of zen where what she does at the party is somewhat irrelevant... .you be you, and if that means she kicks off and throws plates... .well now she's going to have to answer to the family... .

Just an idea

Enabler

[Ruskin]

Consciously deciding to put aside your values for the greater good can be seen as weak... .but I'd rather see it as a sign of strength, strength that I have the ability to be dynamic for the greater good... .

EYES ON THE PRIZE... .whatever that is!

Enabler

Hi thanks again, yes after reading your post, i'm thinking to go,  if nothing else it delays the leaving fight a few days  (Wife staying few days with family, im returning home look after the furry pets and celebrate my birthday on my own)
thank you

[Ruskin]

How do you know you are supposed to go... if you aren't talking?  

Why not ask for her thoughts?  

Enabler has got you pointed in right direction.  One unaddressed concern.  

Why is it your role to "help" her enjoy a family event?  Is she not an adult that can sort that out on her own?

It's obviously "her" event... .so... ask for her thoughts.  Succinctly.  If she wants you to go... go.  If she wants to do her family thing alone... go enjoy yourself elsewhere.

Don't overthink this.  And if she wants to rewrite history later... .let her do that alone (don't listen or participate).

FF

Hi FF thanks for your message, yes good points.  Hmm i know i'm going as i am the "nominated" taxi driver, my wife has a whole pile of xmas presents to drop off too with her various sisters too,

Good point ref the talking, yes she is barely talking to me, except when she briefly forgets and speaks... .  I almost don't dare bring anything up with her for fear of conflict... .  Yes i am weak and take the easy path, i do not like confrontation

My wife sadly has always had issues with speach and punishing people with sillence, her record with me is a few months, her record with her mother while living in her house, years... .

You commented is my wife not an adult, true she is, but i guess on some levels she is a very young child. i do not fully know what we are involved with , dealing with but i feel like i am done

[Ruskin]

Make the choice to go or not on the basis of your own wishes- no matter what her behavior. Much like Enabler said- keep an eye on the goal- your goal. Also tune into your feelings. Do you want to still go as a family? Do you think it is important to go together- part of your values? Or do you not want to go and will you feel resentful if you do go because you don't want to? Do you not want to go, but are you willing to do this as a family occasion? Even if you don't want to go but you know it will be a cause of much difficulty- then at least you understand your reasoning- to not start a huge conflict in your marriage right now. Whatever your choice is, look at it as a choice you make, not a reaction to her not speaking to you.

thank you Notwendy for sharing your valued time and thoughts.  Taking all into account i should go and i will go, you are right i should not take the part of victim reacting to her behaviour or offer her more reason to feel shame and embaressment.  I should be quite battle hardened to this type of thing so looks like i can go and socialise as this is nothing new, this week (especially on this forum) has been a great learning experience for me thanks to kind assistance, views and probing questions.
Alot to take in
thank you

[Ruskin]

Great points Notwendy,

Is there a reason why you might want to go to this family event on it's own merits? Some of these big family parties can be fun. If this is what you decide to do, maybe determine how you want to play it... .release yourself from some of the FOG maybe associated with previous family events, maybe you attend with constant fear that something is going to kick off, that you're going to have to behave in a certain way to appease your W's moods... .what if you just enjoyed yourself, behave in a way YOU want to behave in the full confidence that you are not behaving inappropriately. I'm not saying ignore your W... .just reach a natural state of zen where what she does at the party is somewhat irrelevant... .you be you, and if that means she kicks off and throws plates... .well now she's going to have to answer to the family... .

Just an idea

Enabler

Thanks Enabler, it looks like that is the way i am going to take it.  Amazing how the thoughts come together through discussion.

Yes i am going to go, try enjoy and not sulk thinking of the pressure of the past few months especially.

Thanks!

[formflier]

With such short notice to work through this stuff... .it's usually safer to go.  Perhaps safer isn't the right word... .but appropriate.

Enjoy yourself on the merits of the party.  Let your wife enjoy herself... or have a horrible time.  That's not your circus.

Later... after the party.  I hope we can talk more about not bringing things up because of fear of confrontation.  My early guess is that "fear" is being used to control and manipulate you.

Looking forward to hearing about the party.

FF

[SweetCharlotte]

I hope that you both enjoyed to the fullest extent possible the party with her family.

Perhaps she will display more positive behavior for a time as a result, but the cycle of course always begins again. Sometimes my H and I have "okay" stretches of six months.

I am concerned from what I read on another thread of yours about her wanting to get pregnant soon. She was 31 when you were married, and so now must be in her mid-thirties. As a woman, I can tell you that this issue will not go away, and it is likely to make her behavior more dramatic. That's the irony—she wants you to go the next level with her, but her desperation at the anticipation of rejection actually makes you resist it even more.

I cannot say what is best for you, or how much to consider the little person you might create (her rages—she throws things, and babies can't get out of the way; the effect of medication she must take on pregnancy and nursing; the instability of the marriage; the inheritability of her condition). However, from other posts I've read on here over the years, these female pwBPDs in their mid thirties are just as desirous of having a baby as their non counterparts, and I believe that their partners should take their wishes seriously as part of their marriage commitment.

Even if this were the only trigger she had, it is enough to get her good and mad at you on a monthly basis. Many men these days are reluctant to become fathers for all kinds of reasons (even ecological sustainability and global warming should give pause), and it creates conflict in the marriage that can only be resolved by trying to get pregnant or by breaking up. This is one issue where there's no middle ground, just as it's impossible to be "slightly pregnant."

I wish you the very best with this decision. Also, if she does get pregnant, you know that this can make even the least BPD women act like they have it, right? It takes patience on the part of the father-to-be, and lots of support during infancy and beyond.

[Ruskin]

With such short notice to work through this stuff... .it's usually safer to go.  Perhaps safer isn't the right word... .but appropriate.

Enjoy yourself on the merits of the party.  Let your wife enjoy herself... or have a horrible time.  That's not your circus.

Later... after the party.  I hope we can talk more about not bringing things up because of fear of confrontation.  My early guess is that "fear" is being used to control and manipulate you.

Looking forward to hearing about the party.

FF

HI Formflier

Thought I’d write the quick reply following the party.  Well drove across on Saturday, weather was terrible but we arrived safe.  We were first to arrive so were present for most folks arriving.  The day and celebrations went fine, no major drama on anyone’s side.  There were a few awkward moment’s however for example, when a X Husband of one sister in law, (sister in law not present) decided he wanted to take lots of romantic pose style photographs!  We had to go along with it, I think very reluctantly on both our parts.  Apart from that we did not appear to mingle much and were at different sides of the room, not intentionally I guess….


The X husband of my wife’s sister was a new relationship fatality that I had not known about...   Sadly he has two kids with his x wife.  His wife (my wife’s sister) was not present.  My wife is one of 5 sisters and the one that was not present has the reputation as the worst behaved one.  I realised that now all 5 sisters are either divorced or in the process of divorce or in my case imminent divorce…   They are all quite different but all had similar up bringing  (and what an up bringing it was)…...

My wife is due back from her sisters later today, I returned home late Saturday as I had the fur_babies to look after………...

[Ruskin]

Perhaps she will display more positive behavior for a time as a result, but the cycle of course always begins again. Sometimes my H and I have "okay" stretches of six months.

I am concerned from what I read on another thread of yours about her wanting to get pregnant soon. She was 31 when you were married, and so now must be in her mid-thirties. As a woman, I can tell you that this issue will not go away, and it is likely to make her behavior more dramatic. That's the irony—she wants you to go the next level with her, but her desperation at the anticipation of rejection actually makes you resist it even more.

HI Sweet Charlotte

Thank you for your thoughts, indeed we did hat on my other post.  Yes it is true my wife’s number one goal at the moment is to have a child with me.  I had been going along with the idea when things had been ok (before things went strange in July).  I have not said no to her plans since this downturn in the relationship but I think I will have to say it.  This may be one of her fears at the moment, i do get that impression.

It’s funny or rather strange that I can be the most hated person but she wants to have a child with me.  I tink I understand what it is, it’s just what she wants, effectively it’s using me.  I’m no psychic by the way, in a previous rage she did let slip something along the lines of that I will be nothing more than a sperm donor for her!  Charming!

Anyway I really do not wish bring a child into the world with such animosity between the parents and a potential borderline mum…  my wife already comes from a family with much mental illness, both diagnosed and undiagnosed…

Thank you for your advice and perspective of the broader issues around the potential pregnancy too

[Enabler]

Hey Ruskin,

 

Having children is amazing, I wouldn't hand mine back for love nor money... .BUT... .Children may provide happiness for your wife in the short term but they are but a temporary patch. Here's a good link to read, take specific note of the parenting section half way down:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/why-we-struggle-in-relationships

Does your wife have a tenancy to get hooked on things, things that she decides will make her happy? Or said another way, does she decide that there are things missing in her life which are causing her to be sad? pwBPD often find themselves in a life long search for happiness, in people, things, beliefs and lifestyles... ."if I only had that I would be happy". Having a child is a very serious life long commitment (I am sure you know this). Having a child is not a decision to be entered into lightly. Although your wife may not be overtly violent or abusive to her children, and in many respects may appear like a 'good mother', there are certain behaviours that make it very hard for a child to mature in a healthy way... .not least conflict in the home.

As a responsible adult in this creation you too need to give your participation some serious consideration and be educated in the choices you make with regards to father a child in this relationship.

Enabler

[Notwendy]

As a follow up to Charlotte's comment- if you truly do not want to become a father, and she wants to have a baby, this can be a deal breaker for any marriage- not just one with BPD. If she is in her mid thirties, and wants a baby, and it can't be with you, then she doesn't have a lot of choice in the matter if she stays married to you. It would make sense for her to feel angry, upset, and resentful.

If you also agree to have a baby while you truly do not want to be in that situation with her, you also will feel angry, upset, and resentful.

If either of you have the idea that a baby will make things better between you, a baby won't fix a marriage.

You can't force her to stay married to you and be childless if she would be unhappy, and neither should she force you to make a baby with you if that would make you unhappy. This is a situation that both of you need to face honestly.

I saw that I cross posted with Enabler and although I agree about the fixation aspect- if this isn't a fixation, but a true longing, then it is what it is. Mentally ill women can feel this just as much as women who are not mentally ill. They may not be good mothers, but I think this longing is both biological and socially wired. Not all women want children and that is their choice to make, but if a woman wants a child - and her husband does not, it is not an issue that is easily resolved for them.

[Ruskin]

Thank you Enabler and Notwendy
to be honest i'm just a bit tired of it all.  I feel like i want out of this SAFELY

[formflier]

  I realised that now all 5 sisters are either divorced or in the process of divorce or in my case imminent divorce…   

What does this tell you?

How does  this information help you?

How many of those other relationships have kids involved?

FF

[Cat Familiar]

A common pattern I've noticed in threads about parenting is that BPD mothers can be often quite loving and nurturing to their children, until... .  ... .the child gets to the age when it's important to differentiate from the mother.

This was certainly my experience as a child of a BPD mom. When I started having opinions of my own, that's when she started freaking out and behaving in overly controlling ways.

Any divergence from her opinions and beliefs was seen as a hostile act by me. If my childhood is typical for a daughter of a BPD mom, it was tremendously burdensome. Fortunately I learned to have great strength, but to get there, I ended up spending tens of thousands of dollars on therapy--I'd be afraid to add up how much.

Still, I feel behind my peers in some ways. Having a child with a BPD spouse seems to me to be likely that the child will need some remedial work just to function well.

[formflier]

One of the reasons that I continue with extensive therapy with a Psychologist is to do what I can to "normalize" the childhoods of my kids.

Said another way... i'll pay for lots of therapy now, in an attempt to minimize the issues my kids will have in adulthood.

I would advise anyone considering having a child with a pwBPD or someone that behaves that way to think long and hard about it. 

What you see in their family and in their past is likely what you will get in the future.

FF

[Notwendy]

Although having a baby is a big decision, how the conflict plays out involves the same relationship dynamics as any conflict. If the pattern is for the non to give in to keep the peace, if the non has difficulty saying no, and a desire to be the rescuer, then the outcome is likely to be similar to how other conflicts are resolved.