Christmas question from enabling father

[Summer2019]

  This is my first post here, but I have been no contact with my BPD mother since May. My dad knows this and says that he and my mom want to know what my husband, daughter and myself want for Christmas. I’m not sure why he is asking because we have been no contact for a while and if she can’t talk to me about Christmas why would they be buying Christmas presents? Makes no sense? Do they think things will magically be better because of Christmas time?

[once removed]

hi Summer2019, and

who initiated no contact between yourself and your mother, or was it a mutual thing?

[Summer2019]

Mother initiated but it has become mutual.

[Panda39]

Hi Summer2019,

What do you want in terms of contact with your parents?  Do you want to continue no contact?

Panda39

[once removed]

what led up to no contact between the two of you?

[Summer2019]

We had been LC for a while because it was easier than walking on eggshells. She says we were "always" close but because we have friends we are always choosing them over her. This is classic as she always finds anyone who takes away her time as a threat. I told her a few weeks before NC happened I was going on a trip to Las Vegas. I didn't mention to her that I was going with my best friend because she doesn't like her (for no reasons at all). I posted on FB a photo of us at the airport and she sent a long text to me saying that she is sorry it is such an ordeal to deal with her and that I hide and sneak things from her and that she is released me from my obligation of being her daughter. She says that stressing about what I'm doing and with who all the time is more effort than it is worth. We haven't talked since.

[Harri]

Do you want to resume talking/contact with her/them?

I ask because my mother had cut contact with me after I 'abandoned her', by moving away (in a not so nice way I will admit).  And once she was ready to initiate contact I used it as an opportunity to set limits and boundaries.  During the time she was not talking with me, I worked on me, becoming emotionally separated from her (as much as I could) and learning about how to deal with her behaviors without losing myself. 

I'm just wondering what you want rather than tryin g to figure out what they are up to.

BTW, welcome to the board!

[Summer2019]

Thanks for the welcome. It would definitely make things easier for everyone else, but at this point, I am reluctant because she has until now, for the last almost 35 years not changed so I wonder why this would be different. I don't want to live my life anymore walking on eggshells. What are some of the boundaries you set and did it work? Do they follow them for the most part and is the contact you have now healthier?

[Harri]

   

Thanks for the welcome. It would definitely make things easier for everyone else, but at this point, I am reluctant because she has until now, for the last almost 35 years not changed so I wonder why this would be different. I don't want to live my life anymore walking on eggshells. What are some of the boundaries you set and did it work? Do they follow them for the most part and is the contact you have now healthier?

Well, chances are they will *not* change.  But you can.  If you don't want to walk on eggshells anymore than stop walking on eggshells. ;)  My boundaries worked because they did not require my parents to change a thing.  I was the one who changed how I responded.  I stopped reacting, I stopped doing the same old thing of trying to avoid setting my mom off or blowing up at her and getting caught up in the drama.

So a boundary that was one of the first was with phone calls.  After about a year and a half, my mom somehow got my number (forget how) and called me.  She would start berating me, telling me how much I hurt her, how I abandoned her.  Back then my boundaries were quite hard... .I told her I did not want to talk with her if she would not listen to me, or called me names or yelled at me.  If she continued with any of those things I said goodbye, and hung up.  She would call back, I would answer and give her one more chance... .hanging up again if I had to.  Eventually, and I mean about a year or so, she figured out that she could not yell at me, swear, call me names, accuse me of falsehoods, etc.  

My boundaries were about my values and how I wanted to be talked to.  The actions I took to enforce my boundaries required action from me, not my mom.  So it was not a matter of her following my boundaries or whether or not they worked with her.  It was whether or not *I* followed them and how I chose to respond rather than react.  Boundaries are for us and about us... .not them.  Does that make sense?  Later if I was over at their house, I always made sure I had a way to leave, was only there a short time, and that I could get out fast.  If she started her stuff, I left... .even in the middle of holiday dinners.

My relationship never was normal and we never got close but we could be civil, even pleasant with each other and sometimes we laughed a lot.

Both my parents are dead now so I guess you can say I am pretty firm no contact now.  

In addition to boundaries, I learned about stuff like projection, splitting, and other behaviors of BPD so I could put them in context and depersonalize a lot of things.  Doing that along with the boundaries was important.  I also had the understanding that I could change my mind any time I wanted about how much contact I had with them.  I knew they would get angry and act out, even get worse before things got better, but I was determined.

Does that answer?  I do tend to drone on.  We can help you with this stuff here you know.  Posting during the quiet times, when there is little stress and trouble helps a great deal as you can focus more rather than also have to deal with emotional turmoil.

 

[Notwendy]

At the advice of a counselor, I tried NC with my BPD mom when I was in college. One problem was that I tried to be NC with her while remaining in contact with my father. They were married and so of course spoke to each other and also he was her enabler. Later on I realized in function, with relationship to me- they were one person. NC didn't last long as I wanted to continue a relationship with my father.

As a mother now myself, I get this in part. I have my own relationship with my kids but I do share what they are doing with my H and vice versa. They are his kids too. My relationship with them is thankfully not the same as the one I had with my BPD mother, but I realize over time, she does have some desire to have the position of motherhood, and doesn't really connect her behavior to the distance between us ( I maintain LC ). My father is deceased now but my relationship with him included maintaining some kind of relationship with my mother. I don't think it could have been done another way.

Maintaining boundaries is a difficult part as there becomes a triangle- you, your father and your mother. Reading about the Karpman triangle helped me to understand the dynamics. Mom takes victim role, Dad was her rescuer, I became the persecutor. If she felt bad about something between us, Dad would rescue her by asking me to change my behavior or tolerate hers.

Boundaries are important but I think you may have to choose your battles if you want to maintain a relationship with your Dad. Because of the dynamics between them, he will likely step in as her rescuer if she feels badly or wants something. If you truly feel strongly about a boundary- then by all means, stand up for yourself, but know that your father may not be willing to go along with it.

[Panda39]

Harri is right about changing ourselves to change the situation.  One of the first things I learned upon arriving here is who we can control... .the only person we truly control is ourselves.  We cannot make anyone else, think, feel, beleive, or do anything they don't want to do.  As you already know after 30+ years your mom is going to do what she is going to do, but you can choose how you respond. 

Currently she does what she has always done and you do what you always do and the outcome is always the same outcome.  But if she does what she does and you do something different, then the outcome is different.

It is up to you whether or not you reconnect, you may decide not to, you might try low contact as Notwendy does with her mom (this requires setting and enforcing boundaries),  you could decide on more contact, or you can decide not to decide now.

How do you feel about "gifts" being the olive branch?  I find in my world gifts come with strings attached either used as a bribe (I'll get you xyz if you do what I want) or used later (I got xyz for you and you now owe me). 

Do you feel comfortable with the idea of exchanging gifts?  Do you want to exchange gifts?  (Not out of a sense of obligation or because it will look bad if you don't, or because it's Christmas) but because you do or don't want to.  You can choose to do either or do something in the middle... .no gifts but get together and go out for lunch/dinner (a public place where your mom might be on her best behavior) or you all exchange 1 gift, or you have them just get something for the kids whatever works for you.

Notwendy mentioned the Karpman Triangle here is a link to more on that.  I'll be interested to know if you see this type of dynamic in your family.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=108440.0

I also want to share a link on FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) or emotional blackmail because when you are feeling pressured to do something you don't want to do, it is usually FOG.  Learning to recognize FOG is key to not taking things as personally and can help when you set boundaries.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=82926.0

Below is information and examples of boundaries.  If you decide to re-connect with your mom boundaries will be a huge tool for you.  It is about you your values, and protecting yourself... .even though your mom won't like them they are not about punishing her.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61684.0
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=167368.0



Panda39

[once removed]

We had been LC for a while because it was easier than walking on eggshells.
... .
I didn't mention to her that I was going with my best friend because she doesn't like her

this is walking on eggshells.

I posted on FB a photo of us
... .
she sent a long text to me saying that she is sorry it is such an ordeal to deal with her and that I hide and sneak things from her

what might have happened if youd mentioned you were going on the trip with your friend?

[Notwendy]

It sounds like it was your mother who initiated the NC? My mother has done this off and on. When she comes out of it, it is as if it didn't happen and the expectation is that we all act like it didn't happen. I think your father is used to this. It's probably happened with him several times. Your mother gets angry and in the moment says things and then later, when she cools down, all is fine with her and so she assumes it is with the other person too.

We had a similar situation where we went on a trip and when we told her about it she was furious. I can see how it hurt her feelings because it was a family trip and in many families, the grandparents would be included too, but we didn't want the drama she creates on this trip. She was angry, would not speak to us, and then said she wasn't going to send the kids any presents ever again.

That lasted a few weeks until the holiday season approached and she called to ask what the kids wanted for presents. Yes, it is possible to be furious and then a few weeks later go shopping for Christmas presents. This is how it is with her. Your father has probably adjusted to this "normal".