10pm I get a text "Hi. How are you?"

[1stTimer]

Interesting. Went out with a friend and Doctor Girl (I've decided not interest either way but super cool smart lady); 10pm I get a text "Hi. How are you?". Because I guess I did not reply in time to "Beatiful City of Chengdu". No one believes me here man.  This lady is back home safe, 1/2 world away, in her own home, surrounded by her family and friends, her $290K car, her ex and her daughter and her entire social circle at $10,000 plate parties. And still reaching out.

[1stTimer]

So I don't think the issue is my expectations of her feelings. It is my expectations of her ability to deal with them. If we take her at face value; very old world feelings about love/fidelity/monogamy. Long term marriage. First man she's wanted to be with. Conflict. Relationship ending due to distance and language. How best if this is the truth to deal with her feelings? Cleary not pushing her away more, no more conflict or stress. But how to give her someplace safe to be that she doesn't have to be the one to push to be in?

[1stTimer]

Replied to her 'Hi. How are you?' Which came 3 days after her "Thank you very much. I'll miss you" which I did not reply to and the day after her Status Update of "The Beautiful City of Chengdu" which I take as a personal message which I did not reach out from. I waited a few hours to consider my reply:

"I am well thank you. How are you? I just saw your pictures of Chengdu. It is even more beautiful than I imagined"

No reply yet. If this is gonna happen it is going to be a long slow dance.

Meanwhile, just in case I still spend a couple hours a day with HelloChinese. So far the vocabulary is not an issue it is the pronunciation tests. Getting past some screens with even a short sentence can take 1/2 hour or more. I only suffer through that because Wǒ ài tā :|

[Insom]

Outside of the specifics of what you had with her, do you know what you want in a relationship?

 

[Skip]

But how to give her someplace safe to be that she doesn't have to be the one to push to be in?

This is the learning board and a place to work on relationship skill improvement. That is not always a validating experience - I know it wasn't for me when I went through it    Learning the basic skills has a lot of value in relationships.

1stTimer, you are easily triggered (by your past girl, current women, and members here) and your reactions are often disproportionate and/or self defeating. When members try to help you trace back to why you trigger or they try to mediate your reaction you mostly  - justify, argue, defend, explain. You have been adamant that you are stable, have solid relationship instincts/reads, and don't want any advice, just validation.

And then there is a day like yesterday. A photo launched you into a tantrum against her and with us ("feel free to delete and ban. It is for the best). This was the 6th or 7th time in a month that you triggered.  

I don't how to say this more clearly, 1T, this is high conflict stuff. A lot of members on the "Bettering" board are dealing with this high conflict stuff in their partner - we teach them how to make the best of a bad situation and teach how to "handle" their partners emotional volatility for the sake of the family.  "High conflict" destroys relationships and is not normal or healthy or justifiable.

It you want healthy and stable, you have to be healthy and stable.

There are so many other ways to handle her pulling back (a typical thing in many relationships) that would have been "relationship building" and having you both feeling better today. It's true, she might not be as attentive as she was originally, but relationships are about compromise, and this is on of those  "bread and butter" issues that most relationships encounter and the successful ones take in stride.

I really encourage you to read what you said. About her (corrupt, immoral). About yourself (emotionally stable). About us (not helpful). Is this who you want to be?

Her:
"I think the woman lied about who she was at her CORE.
I think it is she lied about who she was and her values and her lifestyle.
she is clearly starting to reveal herself as an entirely different woman than she presented.
Why work my mother like that?
she was dating others and others in her bed, while telling me how extraordinary I was
[her story] is crap
I don't know who she is
Something is so unutterably wrong here
I'm actually SCARED. Of what was going on, of who she was
What was the set-up? Who was "The Kid"? Why work my mother like that? Why the whole act? Why all the players?
Seriously terrifying stuff
I've said before what bothered me most about that last dinner was not the way she acted but her utter surprise and shock that I removed her from my life because of it.  All the little clues
not sure what the scam here is
I did not get she was this ferarri driving, gucci strutting, jet setter. "

You:
"The right choice was ending it in October (which again I got heat for). And stuck to my guns. The right choice was to stick to my guns the SECOND time I ended it
I have tried more than a few ways to disnegage graciously and otherwise. And still this woman I have not ever had a full conversation with is still engaging with me for some unknown, and I can only begin to suspect nefarious reason.
I tool the Personality Test and rated quite highly in Secure Attachment."

"I tool the Personality Test and rated quite highly in Secure Attachment.
I WAS quite secure in my attachment.
 I do not believe I am stuck in either avoidant or anxious.
I have tried ending this gracefully a number of times.
It was as gracious an end as you can imagine, clearly far more than she deserved.
I left a beautiful spray of lavender with a note telling her how much our time had meant... .
And I treated her with kids gloves because I bought the whole 'first man I've wanted to be with since my divorce a year ago even though many men courted"

"I went out on a date after 6 weeks of being put in a box without affection or sex.
I went out with a girl basically on a 'f this
Feel free to delete and ban. It is for the best.""

[1stTimer]

Well I guess I'm simply going to argue again :|

I have acknowledged I trigger in some circumstances.

I have argued AGAINST the narrative that I caused this breakdown, that I broke up with her to 'elicit' behavior.

When you recast things to fit your own take on what happened "sure she was not as attentive". That is not what happened and you know it.  I'm not some insecure guy who triggered on some sweet girl because she was not as "attentive" as she was before. If that were it I'd have a TON to work on. I won't repeat the whole set of circumstances that led me to break up with her graciously and tactfully. She deserved it. There was no other alternative. She denied anything was wrong. So talking wasn't going to work. Not was continiung to ask her out and get canceled on or rebuffed. Which left simply waiting on her whim which made no sense to me either.

What triggers me is not being validated. By which a) ignoring or recasting realities or b) ignoring my own on the ground take on what happened and what I felt.

You know I triggered on her outfit not because of the outfit but because when she returend to China she looked like an enitrely different woman and entirely different KIND of woman than the one she presented. And more to the point she looked like the exact kind of woman who could have been playing games with me along and stringing me along for this 'serious' relationship while she did God knows what with God knows who. I triggered on that and rightly so given the huge level of uncertainty she kept me in for weeks. So it wasn't a "photo" or a "dress" that triggered me was it?

Likewise I did not trigger on you because of the photo. I did precisely because of the above. No matter how many times I tell you what happened you recast it to fit your own take on me and the situation. In other words, it is invalidating to me because you have decided not just who I am but what I did and why I did it. And no matter how many times I correct you it is just recast into that narrative.

No one would "take in stride" their new partner doing what she did. It was nothing to take in stride. It was rude and hurtful and selfish and inexplicable.

I did say all those things about her. Because I'm unstable? High conflict? No. Because her behavior was confounding and hurtful and selfish and inexplicable. I've posited a few possibilities for why which saw her in the best light and still try to hold on to that. But only a fool would not consider the alternatives about the why of what she did or the who of who she could be. It would be impossible for anyone who experienced what I did with her from the beginning to 'end' and then see the pictures I did and what happened with my mother etc etc etc to NOT ask some hard questions like "WHO THE HELL IS THIS WOMAN?" and wonder what went wrong. Unless you simply start out with "1st is highly insecure, highly reactive, high conflict and anything I read here happened because of that".

For myself I've tried to look at the different possibilities of what happened, what she did, why she did it, what  I did, what I might have done differently, how I could have handled things differently, etc. You know I did because you've seen and heard me do that.

What I find so "funny" about this is you simply have not waivered from your take on what happened, who I am, why I did what I did. When she comes on like gangbusters and begs me for a month of my time and then finds ever excuse in the world to cancel and not be with me and not reply to me and show no affection to me she is just "less attentive". SHE reacted to my "sullnesses" over dinner which is why she was so horrid.  Let's not forget; she really does not like me as much as I thought and THAT is what triggered me.  She reacted to my high-conflict style even though she reacted before she ever experienced that and her friends all said "she is so happy because you never get mad at her and you never get upset and always take care of her and make her feel safe". THAT is my relationship style. When someone spits on that and treats me with disregard over I react. And this time I did with as gracious a break up letter as one can right. Since there was no other choice (oh wait of course I could have sat at home hoping she'd call me at some point when she decided it worked for her and not wondering what was going on or who she was with and just accept whatever she gave me w/o askng a question because I am that desparate).

I didn't say "feel free to delete it may be for the best" about her. I said it about you because honestly Skip while I try very hard to hear what you say and look at the possibility your take or view or opinion or suggestion may be right, it is fascinating to me that you don't grant me the same courtesy as the person who is experiencing the situation. I'm not sure if you can even hear this. I try very very very hard to hear you but what triggers me is being ignored.  If you could make the same effort to hear me as I do to hear you it might trigger me less. If just once you could read MY take on what happened and I felt and she said and perhaps impart some advice with the thought in mind hey maybe 1st is on the money on this it might help.

I don't need advice on how to "reconnect" to her by pretending to myself I'm some highly reactive insecure attachement style guy trying to reconnect with this woman whose only 'crime' was to "not be as attentive" for a few days and then had to deal with double-barrels from old high-conflict 1sttimer. Not only will it now work since it wont be reality, even if it did it will push me into the exact relationship I rejected when I broke up with her; one on her terms where she is so happy I never get mad at her for canceling and believes it means she can cancel and gives me what she wants when she wants it and asks for what she wants when she wants it. Why would I want that? Why would I want her?

I react strongly when the respect and honor and grace I treat other people with his dishonored, I react strongly when a woman asks and demands for commitment and does not give it. I could learn to react better I suppose but it won't change that I hate it and won't change that I won't accept it.

IF things ever work out with XL I'll tell you one thing; she'll know I'm not a doormat and she'll know that her joy at finding a man who doesnt' get mad when she is late means to treat him with respect and never be late if she can help it.

[1stTimer]

Outside of the specifics of what you had with her, do you know what you want in a relationship?

Hi Insom, I answered that in the other thread so will leave it there to save bandwidth thank you  I did reply to the 'do you think she is getting pressure from others due to racial/cultural/class ($$$) issues' with my very shortest post ever (anywhere :| ) "Yes".

It is precisely what I think. I think that she started telling people about me, I think her best friend back home told her son, T, to go see what was what because he shows up on weChat and in her life 3 days before her distance starts (at the PEAK of her "affection" for me).  We did not see each other again for 2 weeks, she made sure to not go on the romantic walks and canceled the big dinner I was to cook for her ahead of time.

And then lo and behold the next time I saw her was with 3 older married Chinese couples on a dinner that was ALL about her and me and us.

After which one of them, not her, invited me to spend time with her Wednesday and the other two couples whisked her away. The dinner was canceled because I would not accept it turning into lunch that could only happen with her friends present who were "very important they set  me up in business".

And for the most part I did not see her again until Translator Evening (the best friend's son) and then Mother's Dinner (best friend's son in tow). I got the invitation afterwards (I guess my home and mother passed) to dinner which included "just you and me! " which I believe was as much about her being "allowed" to be with me alone as it was a message to me. I got that at 2am so I'm guessing she got "permission".

So yes. I know I'll be told I'm reaching, that she just didn't really like me as much as I thought and her distance was because of my 'reaction' and my reaction was out of scale. It was not and it was not.

The girl is as connected to me as I am to her, she's still reaching out from China where I'd never have a chance to find her. Even with my silence.

If you just look at the whole timeline and you look at her photos at home I think it becomes clear.

[Insom]

Hi Insom, I answered that in the other thread so will leave it there to save bandwidth thank you Smiling (click to insert in post) I did reply to the 'do you think she is getting pressure from others due to racial/cultural/class ($$$) issues' with my very shortest post ever (anywhere :| ) "Yes".

Forbidden relationships (by "forbidden" I mean any relationship that is frowned on or discouraged by family and friends) are emotionally intense by definition.  Their forbidden nature creates a sense of emotional urgency that doesn't exist in relationships that are allowed to unfold without interference.  In literature they often end in tragedy.  In real life they are very often characterized by secrecy, conflict and shame.

[1stTimer]

Forbidden relationships (by "forbidden" I mean any relationship that is frowned on or discouraged by family and friends) are emotionally intense by definition.  Their forbidden nature creates a sense of emotional urgency that doesn't exist in relationships that are allowed to unfold without interference.  In literature they often end in tragedy.  In real life they are very often characterized by secrecy, conflict and shame.

Thanks Insom. Secrecy is certainly a component (I mentioned her friend T said about the flowers I left in her building "she wanted to keep it a secret") and conflict for sure. Shame not so much but who am I to say?

As Turkish pointed out when my friend pointed out how she did not look happy in her Socialite pics but was glowing with me, perhaps she is trapped in a situation and was looking for something different/real.

In any event I'm pretty sure as I said nothing happens unless I hit a home-run with this business. That is just a fact I think. I have been pretty adamant here in the US that I don't care for a woman that will only be with me if I "make it" but in this case it is less about me being a meal-ticket than my not being a source of shame in her life. I think a broke failed businessman is not a good future for us :|  I think the dinner went over so well not just because my mother was so 'great' but because she saw her sunken living room 10 feet from Central Park West home. She has mentioned this before 'how amazing you live right near the park!'.

If the issue still persists than it is 'class' but given her 'YOU like ME?' I don't get the feeling she feels like she is slumming.  She was in fact very excited when I told her how hard I've worked on this and not judgmental at all that I'd put every penny into it and had none. She bragged to everyone how hard I've worked every day for eight years and clearly because SHE works that hard and it resonated with her. Just pretty sure it did not resonate with them; this poor American is trying to get your money stupid girl.

This is my take.

Let's see if she replies to my reply; I backed off hard, didn't reply to the 'Than you so much, I'll miss you" from last week, didn't bite on the "Beautiful City of Chengdu" weChat updates (posted in English, starting with a selif of her face) but did finally respond to her direct "Hi. How  are you?" last night.

As I see it I'm playing my 'underwhelm' card now, letting her take the lead to a degree in communication, and working my butt off to close on my deals.

I also found an online human translation service, so when for instance I want to give her some details on what I'm doing I'll hire them to is it clear and I can speak in detail vs pidgkin.

Thanks for taking such an interest Insom it is appreciated.

[Skip]

I react strongly when the respect and honor and grace I treat other people with his dishonored, I react strongly when a woman asks and demands for commitment and does not give it. I could learn to react better I suppose but it won't change that I hate it and won't change that I won't accept it.

1T, I don't want to get lost in re-posting examples.  I'm not sure who you are modeling your relationship skills after (where you learned them)... .and that is often the problem. You have several "go to" moves (schema) and they are highly unhealthy. Your quote above is verbatim of the type of thing you read in domestic abuse recovery or anger management classes.

Friday you said you and your partner have something special. Saturday you see a photo and you told us all that she was a tramp and abuser.  You have mentioned many times that she owes you (she begged for it... .) and didn't deliver her part, and she deserves this vitriol.

You can dive into the minutiae and defend this, but that mostly shows is that you don't see anything wrong with what you are doing.

I'm not upset with you, 1T.  After 500 posts and really not seeing your own patterns, I feel that its in your best interest to make this stone cold clear. Coaching and subelty is not breaking through.

You can certainly continue on the same path... .maybe at some point you will start to see what it going on here... .maybe you won't... .but please remember this post/callout. Don't debate it, think about for a few weeks/months.

[1stTimer]

1T, I don't want to get lost in re-posting examples.  I'm not sure who you are modeling your relationship skills after (where you learned them)... .and that is often the problem. You have several "go to" moves (schema) and they are highly unhealthy. Your quote above is verbatim of the type of thing you read in domestic abuse recovery or anger management classes.

Got it Reacting to a woman who asks for commitment and doesn't return it and not being willing to accept that is a sign I exhibit domestic abuse. Got it.

Friday you said you and your partner have something special. Saturday you see a photo and you told us all that she was a tramp and abuser.  You have mentioned many times that she owes you (she begged for it... .) and didn't deliver her part, and she deserves this vitriol.

I think Skip you are simply so attached to your ego and pet theories you have forgotten how to read or think. I didn't say she "owes me". Now I'm some abusive guy beating his girlfriend for not delivering. I reacted (oncccccccccccccccccce again Skip) to what appeared to be pictures of woman 180 opposed to the woman she portrayed herself to be while she was here. Which put an entirely different spin on her unacceptable behavior.

Yup, I can call someone's treatment of me and behavior as being unacceptable without having anger management issues or being a latent abuser. I think she owes me the same respect and commitment she asks for. I think she owes me the respect of respecting my heart and my time and my body the way she asked for. Yes. Do I think I can MAKE her GIVE it to me? Naturally no. I think I can be upset and react when she does not. And I reacted. I broke up with her. NICELY. The only single time I was not "nice" to her was when I deleted her on weChat. Shall we call Social Services on me? Man what a s*** I am. I mean first I act all hurt and s*** when she asks me to dinner and ignores me and calls a car. What kind of man AM I? Then I delete her on weChat since this entire push and pull has gone on for weeks when I should have just stuck with my guns on the first break up.

I didn't once hit her with vitriol or call her a tramp to her face. I vented her in utter pain and confusion ON THIS BOARD, about behavior that was utterly painful and confusing. Utterly. By anyone's measure. Truly anyone's measure. Except yours Skip. Because you are so busy proving you are right you've lost the ability to listen. You need me to fit into your theory and no matter what I tell you about this situation you'll twist things around so I fit in it. So instead of getting some clarity on what could be wrong, I simply get MORE confused as I'm told her behavior is NORMAL and BECAUSE OF ME. Doesn't matter if I PROVE to you tht the horse came before the cart you'll tell me it didn't because your theory is the cart before the horse, reality be damned.

Yup, that's what I am in this situation; a domestic abuser. I guess she's addicted to abusive men since she's still reaching out from China. I must be some good abuser man if I have that kind of reach.

I'm not upset with you, 1T.  After 500 posts and really not seeing your own patterns, I feel that its in your best interest to make this stone cold clear. Coaching and subelty is not breaking through.

If you think my lasts posts to you were about being concerned if YOU were upset with ME then you really have not been paying attention at all. How can you coach if you cannot break yourself away from your own preconceived notions and pet theories? How can you be subtle if you can't grasp not only the subtleties but actualities of someone else's experience? What happened here does not matter. Just your perception and narratives as they fit your world or blogview.

Other people seem to be able to grasp what she did was wrong. Gems got that her cancelations were disrespectful and that was before anything else went on. I didn't go grab her by her hair and drag her home and say "You b****! You promised me!". I said "You said you didn't want something casual and I treated that with respect. You are treating this like something casual. I don't want to treat something special if it is casual. So I'm wishing you an amazing rest of your time here and a safe flight home. I am so happy I met you and so happy we spent time together". HOLY CHRIST! I just made Hannibal Lecter look like a Boy Scout. What anger issues I have! Clearly anyone can read that and see just how close I came to hitting her!

And man, no woman should have to deal with a man turning his back and walking away, the body is not meant to withstand that kind of physical trauma.

You can certainly continue on the same path... .maybe at some point you will start to see what it going on here... .maybe you won't... .but please remember this post/callout. Don't debate it, think about for a few weeks/months.

I don't need to do that. Nothing you have said has gotten me closer to understanding or solving. It gets me, as with the last time, questioning myself when I am being mistreated. Not questioning HOW I react but that I AM reacting and justifying other people's treatment of me. Not liking when a woman disrespects me when I respect her is not abusive and not angry. It is self-respect because, as you don't seem to pick up, what both women loved about me WAS precisely that I treated them with such care and respect and honor and gentleness. I mean you get that it must be special if this beautiful rich woman with access to rich handsome men on 3 continents got so enamored of me so fast right? I'm not gorgeous, I'm not tall, and I'm right now poor. Yet her and even the other girl fell hard and fast. Why? Those aren't things that I give I should not cherish or expect to be reciprocated and not spit on. Does that mean I can or want to hit or yell or scream? No. And I did not do that once.  I walked away from the nutjob. And tried several times to work things out with this woman since I'm still holding on to the woman I thought she was, that she said she was, that she seemed she was. Yet when you add the behavior to the pictures (nope not just because an expensive car or dress) you start to get the very real possibility she was not a very nice woman or at least one who played with my heart and is a woman who does that. Is she? I don't know. But clearly it is a very real possibility so in my confusion and pain I spewed on here, a supposedly safe pace to do that. But it's not. Because you have an agenda. And I truly think it has nothing to do with helping me.  I  have not heard you once in any or our engagements even display an iota of self-examination, of actually reconsidering your notion of what happened or who I am. In fact it leaves me damaged and questioning myself when OTHER PEOPLE mistreat me. I have nothing to question or apologize for with how I treated her.  Not the break-up and not deleting her weChat. The two single 'mean' things I did. Once with grace and one without a word of recrimination. Yeah man get the handcuffs out. No wonder she went to China she's probably from Indiana but my behavior was so scary she picked the place farthest in the world from me to be safe.

Oh wait. THIS reply is also an indication of my "anger issues" isn't it. Amazing.

I'll tell you something; if this post gets removed and I get 'banned' again we'll all know something is very rotten in denmark... .

[1stTimer]

I'm not upset with you, 1T.  After 500 posts and really not seeing your own patterns, I feel that its in your best interest to make this stone cold clear. Coaching and subelty is not breaking through

Here is what is amazing about my "patterns"; I make the right move based on the right instinct. Each time. And then I listen to other people who short-circuit that. I picked up pretty early on she was pulling back, was't sure why and posited that it was because she was scared of getting hurt. When I finally "broke up" nicely, which I caught grief on here for being "manipulative" it was the exact. right. decision. It did not feel right.  And she was already, if her friend is to be trusted, protecting herself by ending the relationship in her mind. Despite keeping me attached. Which is what I tried to break for myself. Nicely She gets what she wants, her heart protected, I get to detach nicely and protect myself.  No muss no fuss.  My instincts said she was ending it and I ended it for myself so as not to continue getting dragged into it. Which I now have been for another month of horror.

I also said she was terrified of getting closer since she pulled away at the height of her amorous texts and behavior. Nah you said, and gave me any variety of other reasons then that. But that is what it was.

When everyone told me to just do nothing and let her fade into the ether and not do the GG I ignored it and came close to amazing. And she's still reaching out. Because I KNEW she felt amazing and amazed and I made just the right gesture. So how are my instincts the ones that are wrong?

NOT breaking up was the wrong decision.

NOT reaching out was the wrong decison.

And, yes, not walking away after dinner was the wrong decision.

So how are my instincts and reactions wrong? It's only when they get spun around and around until I don't even know who I am that they start to BECOME wrong.

If anything happens with XL it will be beause of the foundation I laid. Because she knows she can count on me to be strong and kind and caring and always take care of her AND she knows I won't let her not be kind or caring and take care of me without walking away.

[Skip]

Oh wait. THIS reply is also an indication of my "anger issues" isn't it. Amazing.

It is and example of your high conflict coping, yes, of course.

Maybe you might want to look at it this way. Your last "love interest" was a very short relationship like this one (both under 90 days) and the issues and reactions were very similar. "She chased and begged me to love her (she said I was the best ever), then there was withdrawal (completely inexplicable, mind-blowing, unfathomable), then the high conflict, and then disparately trying to pick up the pieces afterward."

This is not pattern that healthy relationships go through in the first 90 days. You can change this to a more constructive pattern (for going forward or for exiting).

[1stTimer]

It is and example of your high conflict coping, yes, of course.

Maybe you might want to look at it this way. Your last "love interest" was a very short relationship like this one (both under 90 days) and the issues and reactions were very similar. "She chased and begged me to love her (she said I was the best ever), then there was withdrawal (completely inexplicable, mind-blowing, unfathomable), then the high conflict, and then disparately trying to pick up the pieces afterward."

This is not pattern that healthy relationships go through in the first 90 days. You can change this to a more constructive pattern (for going forward or for exiting).

Welp then I'll have to not make women fall in love with me so fast. The high-conflict only enters into it when I don't hold to my guns and stay broken up. I don't make the pattern you notice right? I mean, again, other than either a) attracting highly unstable women or b) being so darn fantastic women fall for me hard and fast. I certainly did nothing to make them do their initial withdrawal which means either a) they scare themselves or b) it is just a freaking pattern with them. So my only 'constructive' pattern moving forward is to a) run from women who fall for me so hard and fast or b) not care when they withdraw and just say by nicely and move on (as I tried to do with XL). It is not a very satisfying pattern even with all the high-conflict that follows.

And yes, since I know your "style" by now I get that the "completely inexplicable, mind-blowing, unfathomable" withdrawal means that I in fact had something to do with it. As you continually imply. I. had. nothing. to. do. with. XLs. withdrawal.

[Turkish]

This lady is back home safe, 1/2 world away, in her own home, surrounded by her family and friends, her 1/2 million dollar car, her ex and her daughter and her entire social circle at $10,000 plate parties. And still reaching out.

What feelings came up when you wrote this?

[Skip]

Welp then I'll have to not make women fall in love with me so fast.

1T, loading the thread up with extreme and unrealistic "counters" like this is not helping you. You are mocking (and have been mocking) what is being said to you rather than looking at the subtleties and merit of what is being said.

The intensity of connecting with someone often starts with overstated emotions and an unsustainable intensity that is followed by a pull-back and some degree of "fear of engulfment". In a really healthy relationship, the swing is within a certain bandwidth - in an unhealthy relationship (like BPD), the swings can be much more dramatic. Mature couples know this and give each other grace to adjust and compromise.

XL had a very busy life before meeting you - she sounds like Type A. Then she made herself very available to connect with you. Then she started the process of harmonizing and adjusting those two lives (old and new). This is how it normally goes.  And likely, some doubt was creeping in too. Normal. Not disrespect.

When navigating a relationship is important to see the reality for what it is, not what we want it to be. This is hard, but important.

The early proclamations of love are often overstated, fragile and volatile. There is no harm in this, unless we somehow latch on too tightly to things that are said. If we start to actually think we really are the smartest, strongest, most virile man our partner has ever encountered, we will delude ourselves into thinking that our withdrawal is a powerful motivator (she will wise up as she won't want to lose me). We might also adopt expectations (or entitlements) such she will value time with me more than time with anyone else, she will make herself available every time I ask, and I am her top priority. In reality, the most common reaction a partner has to this is to feel smothered and to pull back further.

Can you see the nuance here, 1T?

[1stTimer]

1T, loading the thread up with extreme and unrealistic "counters" like this is not helping you. You are mocking (and have been mocking) what is being said to you rather than looking at the subtleties and merit of what is being said.

Because there are no subtleties to what is being said. There is the repetition of the same premise over and over despite andy evidence to the contrary.

And no one has "mocked" you I disagree with you strongly, apparently that is verboten here. I'd say "mocking" someone is when you utterly ignore what they tell you about themselves and their relationship and keep making them discuss a reality that didn't happen in a public forum. That is mocking someone. Continually telling me that I broke up with this poor girl who was navigating a relationship  the way healthy adults to and I did so as a toxic fragil ego male to try to throw a hissy fit intended to bring her to heel back to our honeymoon stage despite my evidence to the contrary is mocking me.

Mature couples know this and give each other grace to adjust and compromise.

She was given grace. She was not 'adjusting'. You simply don't want to believe this because you in fact cannot grasp anything but your pet theories and simplistic relationship overviews.

XL had a very busy life before meeting you - she sounds like Type A. Then she made herself very available to connect with you. Then she started the process of harmonizing and adjusting those two lives (old and new). This is how it normally goes.  And likely, some doubt was creeping in too. Normal. Not disrespect.

Yup, see I've had relationships and I know how they work and evolve. I'm not 15. So when they evolve in a very strange and dysfunctional way it is pretty damn clear to me.  She didn't "start any process". I've lived "the process". She had an abrupt change of heart which she chose not to share with me. Nothing about this situation when you spell out the steps says "guy and girl fall in love. girl starts to traverse the normal arc of integrating her euphoric feelings with the reality of love and relationships, guy is immature prick who doesn't get that and starts lashing out trying to hold on to the fantasy". That is YOUR story. It is not MINE. It is not what HAPPENED. You WASTE MY TIME making me discuss it. You do not HELP. I start to think you are not HERE to help as this starts to really just feel like a viscious head game wrapped up in the guise of online "therapy".

The early proclamations of love are often overstated, fragile and volatile. There is no harm in this, unless we somehow latch on too tightly to things that are said. If we start to actually think we really are the smartest, strongest, most virile man our partner has ever encountered, we will delude ourselves into thinking that our withdrawal is a powerful motivator (she will wise up as she won't want to lose me). We might also adopt expectations (or entitlements) such she will value time with me more than time with anyone else, she will make herself available every time I ask, and I am her top priority. In reality, the most common reaction a partner has to this is to feel smothered and to pull back further.

Got it. Back to me being volatlie and fragile, insecure and ego-driven, XL as being a normal functioning adult.

Do you notice how often you TELL me why I broke up with her? You simply do not care what I tell you. Because I'm not talking to someone who cares about anything but their theories. I am a real person who lived a real relationhship. It simply has nothing to do with what you want or need to believe to keep promulgating the same story over and over. You did this last time. I'll say again simply for the record I know it will almost literally going in one ear and out the other; I didn't withdraw thinking she would "wise up". I withdrew because what was happening didn't feel right or good. It wasn't someone slowly adjusting to the reality of the relationship. It was a messed up and f-ed up 180 about face by someone who likely came under intense pressure from her rich and powerful family. She didn't feel "smothered" she walked away WHILST smothering me.

I know this all just reads as bla bla bla for you and then "ok so. back to you having a fragile ego and lashing out at this busy woman who is in fact having a normal relationship arc with you which you cannot handle because of your reactive and possibly abusive emotional state"

Notice btw I never mentioned anything about being "smartest" or "most virile" or "strongest" because those don't even resonate with me as they would with some fragile ego image of a male you keep trying to wrap me in. I mentioned how she felt treated and safe and cared for. Very different huh? Very different male. One who would react to situations very differently then you keep positing, in fact one who would react exactly like I did.

Here is a classic way you re-tell whatever I say "she will value time with me more than time with anyone else, she will make herself available every time I ask" and "she will feel smothered".

NOTHING about what I said implied I wanted the above or that I smothered her when she didn't get it. What I said 100,000 times apparantely to the ether is that literally the day after she with utter joy exclaimed she had a month for us to be together and could I make plans (texts snadwhiched between invitations to come live with her and protestations of always being there for me no matter what) she withdrew completely, canceled dates at the last minute without apology, and started canceling future plans and started withdrawing emotionally and physically. On a dime. That isn't explained by pet relationship theories. It IS explained by any of mine (family got involved, she got scared of her YES very intense feelings for me in the face of leaving in a month).  So she didn't have a chance to feel "smothered". She smothered herself perhaps, I did not. And when she kept withdrawing and kept insisting nothing was wrong I ended things. There goes the smothering theory huh?

Not a think about the facts here are acknowledged, not my own ENDLESS corrections that I did not break up to elicit a return to me. Not even a consideration I SAID THAT. Not even a recongition that her behavior was in fact NOT normal, was disturbing, emotionally harmful and dishonest. At every step of the way. I've tried to accommodate the facts of her life and tried to hold on to the vision of who she seemed to be to understand and give her and us space vs simply writing her off. Yet no matter what I say here, even with very compelling evidence that a powerful family interfered, we return to the same story; normal relationship arc, girl adjusts, guy lashes out since he lives in fantasy world and needs to be Big He Man and hopes the very fear of losing him will make her come back to the original fantasy, and he pushes her away instead because her behavior is normal and his is toxic. And the cycle gets worse because she keeps pulling away as a normal functioning woman and he is toxic and damaged.  Write that for whatever journal you need to write it for, heck you can even use the names XL and 1st if you want. It just is not my story.

Can you see the nuance here, 1T?

Er, *I* can. Can you see there is a situation here that actually happened to two people, not some relationship that exists in your mind to fit your pet theories and peeves.

You aren't helping Skip. You aren't leading me towards more healthy relationships. You aren't even discussing REALITY with me. XL didn't have a relationship, get all giddy about me being the most this and the most that while I tried to hold on to the honeymoon for months and years into a normally evolving relationship. Who cares what I say though? It's got nothing to do with me. This thread has nothing to do with me. It has nothing to do with the reality of my relationship. It is about you. And your issues. I really don't want to waste anymore time talking about a relationship that never happened, about things I didn't do for reason I didn't do them to serve some agenda or motive you have. Helping me doe not seem like that agenda. Or should I say helping ME. You might want to helps some vision of a person or some version of a person you have some triggers about but that person is not me and the narrative you keep on forcing onto this story has nothing to do with me. Not a person I know, many of whom are brutally honest people who call me on my s***, has a take remotely like yours. Some might be more charitable to XL than others, most of them wrote her off as being FOS weeks ago. But not a single person defends a single action of hers because there is nothing to defend. Unless of course you don't listen or have another agenda. I'm out.  I question not your take on things that happened but your entire agenda and motivation.

[1stTimer]

What feelings came up when you wrote this?

Some happiness I guess Turkish. My point is that even back home where she can safely not deal with me or us and surrounded by a plethora of very attractive options and lifestyle where should could easily have disappeared into the ether w/o my being able to even find her, she is still reaching out to me. It felt validating. Because as you know the situation has been hugely confusing and contradictory.  I'm trying to hold on to one of two possibilities (yes I get there is a continuum) of who she is and what happened. One is not so nice one is very nice. So I was holding on to the good one when I wrote this.

[1stTimer]

If your agenda IS helping ME than I challenge you to go reexamine what happened here without the bias or preconceived notions you have about me or the situation and try discussing it with me from that framework rather than your own. Yours is a relationship that may have occurred sometime somewhere in your experience, it did not happen here.

[1stTimer]

XL had a very busy life before meeting you - she sounds like Type A. Then she made herself very available to connect with you. Then she started the process of harmonizing and adjusting those two lives (old and new). This is how it normally goes.  And likely, some doubt was creeping in too. Normal. Not disrespect.

There goes that theory again. She didn't harmonize or adjust. She got herself out of control "in love" and future-bound with me and then with 5 weeks to go cut the relationship off with a knife (again not telling me in case I'd do the same to her). She wasn't adjusting. She was running. And protecting herself. There was no old and new harmonization. There was no "normally goes".  There was either a) a woman who got terrified of her feelings and shut down to protect herself (and not me), supported in fact by everything that followed and what her friend said or b) a woman who got yanked away by her elders in a culture that reveres family and elders (and didn't tell me because I'd then go away too) or c) was utterly messing with me but keeping me on a string (so didn't tell me) or even d) was full of s game player who just decided it was fun to have me on a string. None of them is very nice or mature or caring. I've given a great amount of space and allowance to her (except on this board where I vented my frustration and concerns) given her situation (married for years, chinese, langauge, culture, returning home, etc etc) but none of it changes that her behavior was anything but normal, supportive, caring, respectful.

Here is what I did (other than the venting on the board);

1) I calmly dealt with her about-face and cancelations for 2 of the 5 weeks she had left. I asked nicely if anything was wrong or we needed to discuss anything since when people start canceling last minute and then pre-canceling big events it generally means something is up. After 2 weeks of being hurt and dismissed and told nothing was wrong, I broke up with her. Why? Because she was leaving in 3 weeks, clearly nothing was going to happen in the time remaining to us and she'd be 1/2 around the world soon. Not much to pursue there and no reason to put my heart on the line.

2) I gave her the information she MAY have needed to decide to continue the relationship in the form of a nice letter assuring her if she was pulling away due to her fear of my not following or waiting that I would do both. AND if this was just a summer romance for her that was ok too I'd always remember it and the door would be open.

3) I sat and listened to all of her concerns and addressed each one of them and I'll repeat with great grace; I'm betting she was scared to death to show me her passport and how old she was (54 yo women do not do well here let alone in China) and without make-up. I made sure to make her feel loved and beautiful regardless. And her biggest concern, meeting my mother I immediatly arranged and turned into a spectacular evening and addressed all her concerns about where I lived, my family, the quality of my life etc.

4) The only single time that I reacted with any anger was when she was inexplicably rude at our last dinner. By anyone's measure. Enough so so my mother wanted to return her gifts and felt quite dishonored and insulted by making her home open to XL (which she had NOT wanted to do).  And I did not yell or call her names. I said "Have a good night" and I walked away. And when she could not reach out to ask or explain by the next day I removed her from weChat. Not to punish or elicit behavior.

That is the sum of my toxic treatment of this woman.  And of her "evolved" and "normal" behavior.

What is funny is SHE knows what she lost even if you don't.

[Skip]

1T, please stay in bounds. Everyone is speaking to you respectfully. You don't have to be inflammatory to be heard.

I shared my general thoughts on what I think are more constructive ways to deal with ebbs and flows of a typical 60 day relationship.

Why not close this thread out by doing the same - share your general thoughts for everyone reading on the best things to do in situations that are like what you describe below .

There was either

a) a woman who got terrified of her feelings,

b) a woman who got yanked away by her elders

c) was utterly messing with me,

d) was full of   game player who just decided it was fun to have me on a string.

What is the best way to handle a dating partner at 60 days that you have strong interests in and who has not been available for dates because she is "terrified of her [intense] feelings [of love] - fearing of vulnerability/abandonment?  Also, what do you want to be sure "not to do" as it would make matters worse?

If there is family [or extended family] disapproval of a relationship at 60 days and your partner has backed away, what is the best way to conduct yourself when dealing with the the family [or extended family]?  With the partner? Also, what do you want to be sure "not to do" as it would make matters worse?

Lastly, if you are at 60 days with someone who is showing signs of being a "user" -  extremely selfish and reckless with other's feelings - in the relationship mostly because they want something - what should someone do?  Also, what  do you want to be sure "not to do" as it would make matters worse for you?

[1stTimer]

1T, please stay in bounds. Everyone is speaking to you respectfully. You don't have to be inflammatory to be heard.

I'm sorry if you feel I am being inflammatory. I am and have been trying to tell you I feel the same about your seeming lack of interest or ability to accommodate or hear what I am saying outside of the narrative you decided on. I'm trying to learn about myself here and in part from you, can you perhaps try to hear from me about your own behavior? It makes it very hard. I'm trying to hear you and validate you and honor the time you are taking. If I don't feel heard or validate it makes it hard.  You don't need to agree with my take on things but you need to agree with a) my events and b) when I tell you, for instance, I did not break up to manipulate. Continually acting as if I never said that and that is The Truth makes it hard to have a dialog I am sure you understand.  If you find it frustrating I won't try to accommodate your POV imagine how frustrating it is when I find you won't accommodate my truth.

Why not close this thread out by doinng the same - share your general thoughts for everyone reading on the best things to do in situations that are like what you describe above .

I am happy to do so. This is all in retrospect now though. At the time it simply felt as if I was being bs'd and since she would not communicate I did what I thought best with a woman leaving in 3 weeks who had shut me out for 2; I gracefully exited.

What is the best way to handle a dating partner at 60 days that you have strong interests in and who has not been available for dates because she is "terrified of her [intense] feelings [of love] - fearing of vulnerability/abandonment?  Also, what do you want to be sure "not to do" as it would make matter worse?

I get it. Not abandon her. Not make her feel her feelings of not being love or being left or not being worthy are justified.

If there is family [or extended family] disapproval or a relationship, what is the best way to conduct yourself when dealing with the the family [or extended family]?  What do you want to be sure "not to do" as it would make matter worse?

Comport yourself with dignity and respect. As I did with every friend I was with. I was respectful to them and her, used chopsticks, made an effort to speak in their language, asked about their culture, discussed my business when they asked, didn't get into politics, etc. and made sure they knew that I heard them about how much she did for me and how much it meant to me.  Clearly even her translator got that vibe since I'm quite sure his experience with me and at dinner gave her the "go ahead".  When he send me his 'summary' I respectfully declined to answer but thanked him for his time because I said I can't answer what you said without adding in relevant details that have not been shared and out of respect I will not. As my only other option was to pretend or to elaborate or ignore.

Lastly, if you are at 60 days with someone is showing signs of being a man eater - extremely selfish and reckless with other's feelings?  What do you want to be sure "not to do" as it would make matter worse for you?

Break-up and walk away. Not send love letters. Or have fun being eaten while it lasts and expect nothing more.

I think you are pretty clear I am pretty clear that is not who she is. Clearly you know, when you take away the narrative that I overreacted to some natural progression in our relationship (which never occurred) there has been some extraordinarily confusing and contradictory behavior.  And since as this thing progressed before she left that was certainly one possible (if unlikely) scenario, seeing those pictures of her made that possibility very real. I perhaps have not done them justice, it is not a girl shopping at Bloomingdales and then at a baby shower.  That was like logging on to weChat to see the cute blonde schoolteacher I dated was actually Paris Hilton. I literally did not recognize her and that woman yes could have eaten me alive and had fun the whole time. I reacted.

I believe given all the scenarios I handled things well. I can't keep repeating that I didn't break up to get her in line. I was out of answers and questions and needed to protect myself at well in a losing scenario; the girl was leaving in 3 weeks.

And when it occured to me she might be running out of fear I gave her a way to come to me or return to me with no pressure at all.

If you want me to "post mortem" all I can say is my only other choices in mid-October would have been to a) just let her call the shots about when and where or b) tried to gently ask her again what was going on. Given that it was very hurtful to keep being pushed away and canceled on and given I'd asked her a # of times and she'd emphatically told me nothing is wrong AS her friends did I really saw no choice but to end it.  And she did not accept that because despite all her protestations she just keeps hanging around.

I would really appreciate it if you could step away from your own narrative of what happened and me and take a fresh look at the situation if you even care to. I did not lash out during a normal relationship progression and I did not try to manipulate a girl into a relationship.  Her behavior at every step (even her over the top affections) was strange and hard to understand and hard to respond to. I did the best I could do with a misstep here or there.  And it is not just cultural and not just language. Her reach out from China to get me back to WeChat was to ask me some hard questions, which I answered with honesty and care. And again I got back the equivalent of nothing "Thank you so much, I'll miss you too". Yeah sounds like a lot but says nothing. Because she didn't ask "Will you miss me".  And she's made sure on weChat to show me "The Beautiful City of Chengdu" to remind me and then reach out and see how I am. And ignored my reply.

I can only do so much dealing with an adult in a relationship and believe I've comported myself well. If I had lashed out at her in person as I did on this board, I'd be a total s---. I did not and used this board to scream in my pillow and return to her with a smile.

[Skip]

You don't need to agree with my take on things but you need to agree with a) my events and b) when I tell you, for instance, I did not break up to manipulate. Continually acting as if I never said that and that is The Truth... .

I think we discussed this, but let's look at it again. I never suggested that there was premeditated planned manipulation - when you break-up, walk-out, or block, you are usually in a flooded emotional state. Right? Emotions trump logic at these times.

So here is "The Truth" that you provided in the many detailed explanations of these events.

When you broke up with the last girl, you were really upset that she didn't react by coming after you and explaining that she now realized that she did you wrong. You said this.

When you broke up with XL (first time), you hoped and waited for her to come after you. When she did, that made you feel good. You were empowered and even held out a little before reengaging. You shared this.

When you walked away from XL the second time (in front of the restaurant), you were upset that she didn't come after you. It made you even more upset when she didn't so you blocked her on weChat, and waited for her to come after you. You weren't done - you were still thinking of traveling to China to stay with her.

Do you see how these actions - possibly subconsciously - are more about provoking a positive response than actually terminating a relationship?  In all three cases, you wanted the other person to be more connected with you... .these weren't terminations. If they were actual terminations, you wouldn't be in the lead position days after the fact plotting your "play" (using your word) to rehabilitate the relationship.

So, 1T, no one ever said you knowingly planned a manipulation (and you know that). What has been said is that this is your instinctive way (not a healthy one) to motivate the other person to come toward you. You even do it here - how many times in the last two threads have you mentioned being "banned".

And as you know, this tactic works (to an extent), it's learned behavior - which is why you haven't relegated to the "do not do" category with things like punching/hitting.

My point to you after the first breakup with XL is that it is doing more damage than you know and should be in the category of "do not do" category.  If you embraced this at the time, you would have not walked away and blocked her at the "last dinner". You would have realized that it was a relationship killer and while you survived it once, it would be unwise to do again.

I was trying to help you not sink the very relationship that you were trying to rehabilitate. I think, in hindsight, you can see that it was good advice. This was not about my ego. It is not a commentary about XL actions at any level. It's only about you.

My point to you now is, do not do this ever again with anyone unless you are done for good and want them to leave you alone for good. 

There is a lot of psychology to unpack to understand why you do this. I'm encouraging to open the door to seeing it.

Make any sense?

[1stTimer]

Ok I can see some of that is valid (subconcious). To clarify on first girl. When I walked out on the girl I didn't want her back, I wanted some explanation. I didn't "break up" with her she'd just broken up with me after weeks of getting me to commit and then pretended asked her and she was not ready. I'd really like to take that whole scenario out of this equation.

With XL. I can see where there could be subconscious desire to motivate behavior yet when I did 'break up' and I walked away and blocked from weChat there is no conscious desire to punish. It is when I am out of options (as I see it) and am getting hurt staying around.  Perhaps I simply need to learn to be more direct. And less scared of the answer. And yes perhaps it is a good idea to consider break-up more carefully and see if I am actually done.  I can tell you when I broke up the first time I was, when I walked away I was and when I weChat deleted I was.  If I had sat on those feelings for a day is the question would I still have wanted to do so?  That I can't answer, all I can do is "next time" do just that and see what I come up with.

So possible alternatives if I'd waited might have been reaching out to her again and pressing the issue as a we need to talk vs I'm walking away.  Perhaps at dinner I could have asked the same or even when she called the Uber. Something I said? Are you scared? What happened to last night? Etc.

So I get that I get to a spot I might not want to hear the answer and end it first. I can work on that.

I'm not really sure if it would have changed the outcome here. It would have removed some conflict and strife for sure but really only for her. It still would have left me confused and hurt. Because she WAS running. The why is unknown.

And yeah I guess perhaps after her dinner cancel (my friends and I can only make lunch) I could have said 'woah' and stepped back and tried to suss out what was happening (besides "liar!") and see that either she was scared of being hurt or being pulled back by family. What I a quite sure of however is that she was not havng an ordinary relationship arc.

If I seem triggered by this though it has seemed very much that the situation has been recast to this great girl traversing the normal arc of a relationship and this reactive angry guy lashing out at her and that is not what happened. Clearly her behavior was strange and hurtful and if she were on this board you wouldn't be telling her that and you'd likely be telling her "well what did you expect him to do?".

If I felt like I had that kind of support here I'd likely be more likely to take a breath and come here and see my next steps.  But I do find it... .debilitating... .to have each scenario cast as me toxic/reactive and her as adult/normal. Because it leaves me no place to go.

Anyway just babblng her by now I guess. I get where you are coming from. Thank you for your support.

My guess is this thing is done. I don't see us getting closer from 7,500 miles away, we didn't have the time to build on our connection, strife was introduced and I'm sure she'll see at least with all her possibiities it makes sense to just let us drift into the past. Maybe she'll reach out when she returns, I doubt I'll be open to it. And she still has not replied to my reply to her from two days agao so that should tell me something about my priority to her. Part of me feels she is just as conflicted who knows. It just sort of sucks because I've spent my adult years in two major cities (3 if you count my 1/2 year in Santa Monica) and I've never met anyone remotely like her or remotely as close to all the things I've hoped for. Then again if I take her words to be true then she has not met anyone like me in three continents. If I can get my biz up later this year we'd have made amazing couple. Oh well. Thanks again.