I was almost mortally wounded man.

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

IIf you embraced this at the time, you would have not walked away and blocked her at the "last dinner". You would have realized that it was a relationship killer and while you survived it once, it would be unwise to do again.

I will say this. The WeChat was a reasoned if not highly-emotional and hurt move I could have considered better. Walking away was not on any level manipulative or reasoned. My heart was bursting and my eyes were about to explode in tears. I was almost mortally wounded man. So I didn't say to myself "hey I'll stomp off in anger and see if she chases me". I could hardly see walking down the block and do not even remember getting home. Not a think in the world could have stopped me from walking away. I get tears in my eyes typing this remembering it so it was in no way shape or form any 'learned' behavior; it was literally the only thing I could so (other than perhaps falling to my knees sobbing at her feet). Not trying to be overly dramatic here just that there was no choice or artifice or manipulaton subconcious or otherwise at that moment in the slightest. Just survival.

[1stTimer]

IIf you embraced this at the time, you would have not walked away and blocked her at the "last dinner". You would have realized that it was a relationship killer and while you survived it once, it would be unwise to do again.

I will say this. The WeChat was a reasoned if not highly-emotional and hurt move I could have considered better. Walking away was not on any level manipulative or reasoned. My heart was bursting and my eyes were about to explode in tears. I was almost mortally wounded man. So I didn't say to myself "hey I'll stomp off in anger and see if she chases me". I could hardly see walking down the block and do not even remember getting home. Not a think in the world could have stopped me from walking away. I get tears in my eyes typing this remembering it so it was in no way shape or form any 'learned' behavior; it was literally the only thing I could so (other than perhaps falling to my knees sobbing at her feet). Not trying to be overly dramatic here just that there was no choice or artifice or manipulaton subconcious or otherwise at that moment in the slightest. Just survival.

[Skip]

Walking away was not on any level manipulative or reasoned. My heart was bursting and my eyes were about to explode in tears. I was almost mortally wounded man.

OK, you were really let down... .OK.

But then why would you then block her on weChat and "get into it" with the translator.  Communication was already very difficult, she was leaving the country, and these were your only two lines of communication. This was a kind of a scorched earth action on a lot of levels.

All subconscious motivations aside, what were your thoughts at the time?  

[1stTimer]

OK, you were really let down... .OK.
But then why would you then block her on weChat and "get into it" with the translator.  Communication was already very difficult, she was leaving the country, and these were your only two lines of communication. This was a kind of a scorched earth action on a lot of levels.
All subconscious motivations aside, what were your thoughts at the time?  

Like I said leaving was just visceral. The smiling "Ok see you next year!" that made it seem like all one big joke and there would be no Chengdu or nothing.

WeChat there were not really "thoughts" either just emotions. I was going over and over the last texts to see what I missed, saw all of her "I am so happy!" and "Come to me in Chengdu" and pictures and thought she was gone and I just didn't want to see her pictures or texts anymore it hurt too much. Really that simple. I just hit delete. Not punitive. I actually sent her a text before she left explaining this.

I'll say again too; if I could have asked myself why would I do this or should I do this if I'm in confusion and pain certainly a grown woman would have asked herself the same things before, during and after dinner.

Got into it with translator was not planned either and I don't doubt for any reason he was winding me up. Not sure why but he was.  Dinner hadn't meant that much? Chendgu was just as friends? Never considered me her boyfriend? Etc etc.

So none of those are thought or subconcious based at all. They are pure tripwire emotion. With him especially it was weeks and weeks and weeks of pent up confusion and pain.  "Dinner seemed like fun is all". "Dinner seemed like FUN? YOU explicitly told me when we were discussing the imediments to moving forward that was her biggest issue; in Chinese culture it is so important to introduce your serious girlfirend/relationship to the parents. I did. She made an hour trip on her last Friday to meet my mother and you made a two hour trip from New Jersey when you hardly know me and don't know my mother becauseit seemed "FUN"?"  Now truly I should not be so easy to spin-out but I was an unholy mess then. I have her just reaching out again from China now possibly believing I was cursing at her in a text and the guy who can explain it is BSing me for some reason.

So again none of this is because I planned "hey I'll walk away and she'll come running" or "I'll block her on weChat and she'll invite me to Chengdu because she is so scared of losing me " or "I'll tell him so he'll tell her". It was pure unadulterated emotion. You might have gotten just a tad of what I've been feeling her Skip but any of my reactive/reactions aside it has been a horridly confusing 6+ weeks that went ping-ponged back and forth between joy to despaire to hope to joy to despair to hope to joy to despair to hope, all without any real answers at any part of that cycle.

I reacted. Plain and simple.

[1stTimer]

OK, you were really let down... .OK.

Really let down is when Kawhi left the Spurs Skip. I was crushed and confused and unable to process or talk or think. There is a difference. This is right after the spectacular hight the night before. This cycle had been going on for weeks.

[1stTimer]

My point is there really is no subconcious "I'll manipulate this way". I've broken up with one girl in my life before this, the woman I lived with for 4 years. We sat down and spoke. I didn't 'break up' with psycho-girlI walked out on her when she pulled the bait and switch on me and broke up with me. I didn't want to be near or with her. And yes I spent many weeks confused. But I didn't say what I said to get her to be with me.

And ditto XL. I don't need to figure out how to not use break-ups to get what I want because it was never a pattern and is not now. I need to figure out how to de-escalate when I am overwhelmed by emotion. Not only for me but because people can control me as I think the kid found out.

[Skip]

I reacted. Plain and simple.
... .pure tripwire emotion
... .pure unadulterated emotion
 

I hope you hear yourself and understand why I said earlier that this is the type of thing that is what is dealt with in anger management. I know that is uncomfortable to go through this.

It's not something to look at as "I probably could do better". You probably want to take this head on.

I know it took lot to lay this out. I hope it helps.

PS: The basis of tripwire emotion has underlying subconscious intent and learned behavior by definition. There is no pure or simple in aggressive or angry "tripwire" behavior. There is a reason you did this rather than scream, or punch a wall, or self injure yourself.

[1stTimer]

Not sure where sceaming and punching walls comes in here. I didn't suggest I wanted to punch anything or anyone or even felt violent. I stopped thinking. I reacted. Are you saying there is a reason I STOP thinking?  I'm not looking to figure out how to scream or punch a wall instead. I'm looking to try to learn some version of 'count to 10' so I can myself back to thinking and not reacting.  There would be no reason to lose it and give up all I'd gained when I talked to him unless you are suggesting I was being intentonally or subconciously self-destructive which is not a bent of mine.  And I'll say again when I react so strongly it is because my instincts have kicked in high gear and quite accurately. I'm only trying to figure out how to harness that.

Do you see my frustration? If you gave what I said happened and what I said some credence you might find a way to come at this from some other perspective than endlessly making me feel like some toxic reactive insecure man. Let's try this one on and come from it maybe we can actually make some progress. Just try this with me please:

XL was NUTS about me, her words and actions were aligned with her feelings

Translator (T) suddenly shows up in her weChat the last week in September. The week she is at the height of her love and if she were gushing to me about her feelings you know she was gushing to her friends, particularly her best friend, his mother. And he just... .appears?  

The week she finds out she has a month and practically orgasms becaues she can spend it with me

She invited me for dinner with her and him and his GF, I could not make it due to a toothache.

They have two more events that week. And this is precisely when she unexpectedly starts canceling. Not 'harmonzing'. Canceling romantic walks. Dinners. Ignoring compliments. Cancel the UPCOMING dinner. "Nothing is wrong" but something is. And when do I see her again Skip? At a dinner with 6 Chinese Elders where I am the Guest Star

She's escorted away and one of the elders asks me about Wednesday. Not her. Him.

When her "friends" cannot make dinner she REFUSES to see me without them. "My friends and I can only make lunch".

When I finally see her again it is with T.

And T has to come to dinnner.

Which we "passed" clearly because suddenly she is her again, over the moon.

And not only do I get the 1/2 dozen I am so happy's I get a 2am text inviting me to dinner "Just you and me! ". I remember the text because I woke up thinking I'd dreamed it. So she got some permission I believe AND to see me alone FINALLY.

I can't tell you why or what happened between then and hte dinner but it was something and it was not me. Whoever was coming in from China was involved because she was super uncomfortable and could not look me in the eyes. And "See you next year" is a pretty clear message.

She is still reaching out to me from China, where her pictures make it clear she lives a gilded life if not in a gilded cage.

If you just get off a moment of my reactions which while possibily ill considered in retrospect made sense for anyone with a heart you can see there was a lot going on here which clearly incldes:

She was crazy about me. From the beginning to now.

Somoene got in the way. Definitely herself but likely her family and friends.

My reactive state did not help for sure. Maybe a stronger and silenter approach would have made it safer for her to come to me instead of ping-ponging between her own fears, the pressures from them and the pressure from me. So I'm not writing off my reactions. I'm writing them off as being THE explanation of WHAT happened.

If you let go of "reactive 1sttimer pushed a woman away who was on the fence anyway because he thought she liked him more than she did" you can see that what I'm saying makes sense. And if I'm going to have any hope of this being something one day, I need to make sense of it. Yep I need to learn to handle my emotions and fears. But that is not THE thing that is going to make this have a Happy Ending if that is even possible to it.

[1stTimer]

And my larger point is, I get you want to "fix" my 'anger management' issues. If I concede those can we move on?

Because I'm not trying to solve that even if I DO have that right now. I'll shelve it and go to Anger Management courses next year ok?

If I were MAHATMA GANDHI this situation with XL would still exist because it is not a scenario that was caused by any 'anger management' or could have been fixed if I'd dealt with my supposed issues.  However *I* dealt with this scenario we'd still be likely where we are now. Maybe with a little more hope, maybe not, but right. here.  Because the things she did she did w/o any 'anger' issues from me. There is an issue THERE.  I cannot solve it.  Even taking away my 'break-up', my walk away, my WeChat delete and my argument with Translator. If I was in the most centered calm place each of those times we'd still have the situation we do which is what I'm trying to deal with and solve.  That is why I am here. Not for anger management courses.

If you want to work with me on that I'm glad to and appreciative of your help. But I'd really like to stop going own the 1st Reactive Toxic guy caused this because, again, it is not helping me here. I'm trying to figure out if there is a way to hold on to or reconnect to the second woman I've loved in my LIFE and perhaps, if I am right about the woman I'm trying to hold on to, a woman who comes across once or twice in a life. Will "Anger Mangement" if that is an issue of mine need to be addressed either way? Sure. Meanwhile, I'm trying to not lose the girl. And I didn't lose her because of my issues. Maybe didn't help but it isn't what happened here.

[Skip]

I am being respectful to you. Please do the same.

One last inquiry:

My reactive state did not help for sure. Maybe a stronger and silenter approach would have made it safer for her to come to me instead of ping-ponging between her own fears, the pressures from them and the pressure from me. So I'm not writing off my reactions. I'm writing them off as being THE explanation of WHAT happened.

The translator relayed this message: “She hasn’t never met someone who cares so much about her. But she was worried, since she was not teenage girl anymore. She cannot just follow her own feeling and passion and go into a relationship.”

Why did you dismiss this? Wouldn't this likely be something XL told him. Could this be exactly what she is conflicted about.

When I read it, I took it to mean that she is very ambitious and driven right now and feels a relationship like the one you both had might be too demanding of her / conflict with her ambition.

Not unlike the dog lover who doesn't have a dog because they travel and feel it wouldn't be fair to the pet. One can love dogs, but be conflicted about owning one. One can be attracted to a partner, but conflicted that the relationship might be too demanding at this time.

Does this seem reasonable? Might the dinner with your mom have highlighted the the type of things she liked about the relationship. Might that last date and aftermath have highlighted the type of demands associated with being in a relationship that concerned her?

If not this, what else could "she was not teenage girl anymore. She cannot just follow her own feeling and passion and go into a relationship" mean?

[1stTimer]

Gotta love the quotes you pull for new threads man ;)

I am being respectful to you. Please do the same.

One last inquiry:

The translator relayed this message: “She hasn’t never met someone who cares so much about her. But she was worried, since she was not teenage girl anymore. She cannot just follow her own feeling and passion and go into a relationship.”

Why did you dismiss this? Wouldn't this likely be something XL told him. Could this be exactly what she is conflicted about.

When I read it, I took it to mean that she is very ambitious and driven right now and feels a relationship like the one you both had might be too demanding of her / conflict with her ambition.

Not unlike the dog lover who doesn't have a dog because they travel and feel it wouldn't be fair to the pet. One can love dogs, but be conflicted about owning one. One can be attracted to a partner, but conflicted that the relationship might be too demanding at this time.

Does this seem reasonable?

If not this, what else could "she was not teenage girl anymore. She cannot just follow her own feeling and passion and go into a relationship" mean?

I don't dismiss this. I didn't dismiss a thing she said in that. She said all the things I KNEW were the issue. Getting to attached before we left to the point of "I can't live without her/him" and then flying away in pain trying to figure out how to reconnect to a person you love that doesn't speak the same language and lives 7,500 miles away. I never doubted she meant that.  What I could not reply to was getting that when she flew out and replying to HIM about it as if she had said that 6 weeks ago, not after spending a month keeping my heart in it, not after saying I have to meet your mother and making it seem so transformational.

In other words, it was a converation for the end of September so we could figure it out together and *I* could not be at "can't live without you" when she flew out. The meat of it makes sense and always did, I called all that weeks ago and many people dismissed it. This is why I said it is only part of the truth.

I don't think this is about ambition. If she lived here and I spoke Chinese there would (presumably) be no issue.

So I get it and got it; she was (as I've said) scared that to be that intense by the end of September could only lead to head-over-heels spending the 'month together' as she wanted. This leaves us both crushed, not knowing if it is feasible.  And (at the time) her not knowing if I was willing to make those sacrifices.  It was a smart gutsy mature move. She just didn't tell ME and didn't want to. Because if she moves on I move on. I'm guessing as she said in her text before she left "I don't have enough English to say all my thoughts".

She's an adult woman and wants a relationship she can count on and build on. I get it. I want that too.

Perhaps asking to meet my mother and make it so important was not the right move. Perhaps with more Enlgish she could have said 'this was a great step, I am so happy. Come to me in Chengdu and we can see what we have" or some such. But clearly if she could communnicate this to him while she got on a plane she could have said it weeks earlier.

Anyway, done is done.  I think she messed up. I think I messed up.  The question now is do both of us want to do anything about it. And what. I'm trying to figure out how to give her enough space without just disappearing from her life. I really and truly think we have enough to come together, I think it is that strong. I can't tell her how to handle her end. She seems to have made some decision about that; she invited me to wechat immediatly, she communicated her issues ("stop being angry", "please make more effort to understand me and understand how hard the language is for me", "what does this text mean").

I've been very gentle in return. I answered her questions, I answered her text in a few hours rather than imnmedialty and gave a nod to her Beautiful City of Chengdu.

Maybe I'll like one of her pictures I don't know.

Maybe I'll start sharing some of my life on WeChat (planning on doing that for the T-Day parade from my window).

I'm trying not to trigger like I could right now since she texted me "How are you?" Sunday night and still has not replied to my response from 2am Monday. Just be chill.

IF we can get to some comfortable wechat vs just drifting apart and the time seems right I'll suggest the letter exchange.

I will let her know I've started studying Mandarin. So she knows it is important to me to communicate to her too.

I dunno man.

I did find a service that has human translators who will do short texts too so if I have something important to say at some point I can make sure I know what I'm saying and so does she.

And I'll skip having The Kid over for dinne and just ease him out of the equation.

These are just sort of rambling ideas.

Oh lastly; I think part of 'not a teengage girl / emotions' thing just has to include seeing where my business goes. as much as she said she doesnt' care and is so proud, I don't think any family like hers or even her are going to be much enamored long term of a guy who is struggling. So this gives me more motivation to get my deals done if I can and ASAP. I'll bet if I pulled that off I could wrangle that invitation to Chengdu again and if I showed up even semi-conversant in Mandarin could make up a lot of ground.

[1stTimer]

.

Does this seem reasonable? Might the dinner with your mom have highlighted the the type of things she liked about the relationship. Might that last date and aftermath have highlighted the type of demands associated with being in a relationship that concerned her?

If not this, what else could "she was not teenage girl anymore. She cannot just follow her own feeling and passion and go into a relationship" mean?

Sure. Good points as I'm sure both dinners gave her (ha) food for thought.  Yet again, she still reached out before she flew out, when she landed and when I contacted her back onto weChat. So the balance is at least... .not fatal. And she did say this "to my mother" (meaning me since it was my phone she texted to) "I think your son and I will work out our problems".

I think she means just what she is saying; that she likes (loves?) me a lot but can't let that interfere with reality like she's a teenager. She's a 54 year old Chinese divorce living in China with a rich family and business ties to her ex who speaks a little English. I'm a ** year old ;) American living in NY, speak 4 words of Chinese and am struggling to get my business of the ground. Two smart people would take some time. I'm guessing again her biggest issue is not language but my business as I'd think her friends who were NOT in love with me would be much more skeptical of my potential. And she's Chinese so friends/family are very very important.

So since I have limited things I can to do connect with her other than trying to keep that alive, is to get the business launched finally and learn Mandarin. I'd say those two together would be quite key.

[Harri]

Hi 1stTimer.  I've been following your posts for a bit now and just have a few comments to share and see what you think.

When we talk about learned behaviors we are not talking about behaviors you actively try to learn like tying a shoe or riding a bike.  The learned behaviors Skip mentioned are behaviors we pick up by observing what works for the people who surround us and what works as we interact with them, usually in childhood, and we then incorporate those that fit our own personality into our go to or instinctive behaviors (sometimes with a twist of our own!   ).  So when you talk about how you reacted to some of the events that happened, I see them very much as being learned behaviors, some of which are not serving you well.  That is okay.  We all have them.  The point is to recognize it (as hard as it is) and then work on them.  That is what hundreds of us are working on here right now. 

I will say this. The WeChat was a reasoned if not highly-emotional and hurt move I could have considered better. Walking away was not on any level manipulative or reasoned. My heart was bursting and my eyes were about to explode in tears. I was almost mortally wounded man. ... .I could hardly see walking down the block and do not even remember getting home. Not a think in the world could have stopped me from walking away. I get tears in my eyes typing this remembering it so it was in no way shape or form any 'learned' behavior; it was literally the only thing I could so (other than perhaps falling to my knees sobbing at her feet). Not trying to be overly dramatic here just that there was no choice or artifice or manipulaton subconcious or otherwise at that moment in the slightest. Just survival.

This is, by your very description, a reactionary response.  I am not saying this makes you bad or immature and I don't think it does.  We all have reactions to emotionally painful events.  It is okay that this is what you managed to do at the time.  The point of this board and the work we all do here is to see what we can change.  **all we can change is us.**  Our behaviors, our thought processes and how we react to triggers or sensitive issues.  So all the analysis of what happened with XL and her feelings or what might be happening behind the scenes is not the primary issue when we talk with you.  Our focus is on you and helping you change and learn better ways of handling things.  Like you said, you need to learn how not to react (you said you need to learn to count to 10 or some variation of that).  I think that is what Skip has been saying to you.

My reactive state did not help for sure. Maybe a stronger and silenter approach would have made it safer for her to come to me instead of ping-ponging between her own fears, the pressures from them and the pressure from me. So I'm not writing off my reactions. I'm writing them off as being THE explanation of WHAT happened.

Okay, so your behaviors are not the explanation for what happened so now what?  You are just at the whim of whatever XL and her entourage does?  Looking at what we can change within us to help us in a present or future relationship is not about blame.  It is about responsibility which I equate with freedom.  Looking for patterns in our behavior is important.  How else are you going to change and learn better ways of Being?

So you have admitted how some of your reactions are unconscious... .and that is excellent.  Bringing them into focus and awareness is the first step to changing them (I feel like there should be dramatic music playing with the way I wrote that... .sorry, I digress).
One thing that I found helpful in learning to regulate my emotions was to change the words I used to express my feelings.  I used to be angry and very easily blew up... .everything sucked and was poo and all sorts of over the top words and adjectives.  All they did was feed my anger.  (I am talking about anger because that is what I can relate to... .pick your own emotion  )  Changing words and phrases to stuff like "yep, this is unfortunate" or "wow, that hurt" rather than wow I'm want to die!  took some time but it worked and as I changed the words I used, my thoughts began to change and my emotions followed. 

Okay, so I shared.  I don't know if that applies.  If it does great... .if not, just leave it.

Take good care 1T   

[1stTimer]

Hi 1stTimer.  I've been following your posts for a bit now and just have a few comments to share and see what you think.

Thank you for taking time to Hari.

... .The point is to recognize it (as hard as it is) and then work on them.  That is what hundreds of us are working on here right now.  

I do get this Harri I really do. I reject that part that says this is some learned behavior to elicit a reaction or even punish. I'm leaving out the walk-away as there was no way in the world I could have stayed there a moment longer. However the Break-up and WeChat, as reactionary as they were, had really no component I can discern meant to bring her to heel.  They were out of total anger/pain/frustraton since, to me at least (and especially by WeChat) I'd exhausted every other measure. Certainly by weChat man. Even the Translator rant. It is really where I get to the point of a) nothing I do is going to affect this and b) I am being lied to/used/manipulated. Certainly a common thread by break-up, wechat, translator. Maybe a thing to do is when I hear that voice telling me back step back and think it through. But I've been rejecting the 'break up to manipulate' vs react to feeling manipulated/used. Even when I articulate it like that it helps me to recognize it and try to find some solution. I've resisted the manipulation tactic part of it as it did not feel right and in fact i realize almost offensive because I am reacting so strongly to being manipulated.

Our focus is on you and helping you change and learn better ways of handling things.  Like you said, you need to learn how not to react (you said you need to learn to count to 10 or some variation of that).  I think that is what Skip has been saying to you.

I understand and appreciate it. Perhaps I could have been clearer that I am looking for ways (besides not losing my cool) to understand what has been going on and to find some path together because I can't even practice not losing my cool if I don't interact

Well, not totally true as I type that. For instance, she texted me sunday at 8pm "Hi. How are you?" I texted back at 2am (her 2pm) "I am well thank you. How are you? I saw your pictures of Chengdu it is more beautiful than I imagined". No reply yet. And I can see by her latest update she has been back on. VERY triggering.  And I notice my mind running all over the place with that. So trying to not, as my friend calls it, "go dark".

Okay, so your behaviors are not the explanation for what happened so now what?  You are just at the whim of whatever XL and her entourage does?  Looking at what we can change within us to help us in a present or future relationship is not about blame.  It is about responsibility which I equate with freedom.  Looking for patterns in our behavior is important.  How else are you going to change and learn better ways of Being?

I don't think I'm at their whim and get I could have in those 2-3 cases handled myself better. Mostly I think I handled myself really well. And when I didn't, I didn't help. But I'm still at needing to find other things to address then just my tendency to lose it when I finally feel cornered/lied to.  Because whatever pulled her away (scared as per his letter of getting to close, family intervened, even lost interest but I doubt that highly) she not only did not communicate that in chinse or english or google transate, she communicated just the opposite.  And making the Mother Dinner so important from a cultural and relationship perspective both before and after and right after making it seem not so important (and having The Kid basically say that) seemed highly disrespectful and manipulative so played right into my trigger.

And I get if I'd had tools to not trigger on that the next night things might be better now but they wouldn't change those facts. Someone is lying or someone is scared and not owning up and allowing me to suffer because they can't

Changing words and phrases to stuff like "yep, this is unfortunate" or "wow, that hurt" rather than wow I'm want to die!  took some time but it worked and as I changed the words I used, my thoughts began to change and my emotions followed.

That is not a bad idea thanks. I go all Tourette's under my breath when I'm starting to lose it so that would be a good time to notice and do the 'fudge marmaluke arsenal pooppoo' instead and introduce a little "levity". I'll try it.

Okay, so I shared.  I don't know if that applies.  If it does great... .if not, just leave it.

I appreciate it, I really do and will try to work on that thing. I'm still sorta stuck with a much bigger thing (her) and I guess no one can answer that or solve it except her. As we round into the end of November I might just have to accept it is over.  Which is a hard hard pill as I waited about 16 years since I last felt this way and thought I never would again. I get the lesson would be "you thought that before and see what happened" but that doesn't change it too about 3 decades for the first time and another decade and a half for the second. And this was not just some girl on the corner.  So I'm trying to quiet my mind that she has not gotten back to me and not go the "Crap! Just when she reached out he talked to her!" or "She was just being nice she's lost any feelings" etc etc.  I'm trying to keep my mind focused on the good things that did happen e.g. it was so important to make a trek on her last Friday here come to meet my mother and it made her joyous, she told "my mother" that "your son and I will work out our problems" and she texted before she took off and after she landed and answered me at 4am in 1 minute a week later and invited me back on weChat and I'm still not blocked.

Just trying to hold on to good stuff to not let the dark stuff spin out of control and I'll try you 'oh fudge' trick when and if it does and try to get back to it.

Take good care 1T  

Thanks and right back at you Harri

[Harri]

Hi again.

I do get this Harri I really do. I reject that part that says this is some learned behavior to elicit a reaction or even punish. I'm leaving out the walk-away as there was no way in the world I could have stayed there a moment longer. However the Break-up and WeChat, as reactionary as they were, had really no component I can discern meant to bring her to heel.

Okay, let's put the focus on you.  You said you were reactionary so we are on the same page there.  Rather than focus on XL, lets focus on you right now.  Would it be fair to say that you reacted the way you could to make 'it' (the situation) go away?  To just get away from the frustration and hurt and the pain and the tears that were burning in the back of your eyes and tightening your throat?  (I am talking here about the goodbye after the short dinner).

 

Maybe a thing to do is when I hear that voice telling me back step back and think it through. But I've been rejecting the 'break up to manipulate' vs react to feeling manipulated/used. Even when I articulate it like that it helps me to recognize it and try to find some solution. I've resisted the manipulation tactic part of it as it did not feel right and in fact i realize almost offensive because I am reacting so strongly to being manipulated.

Ooo!  I hate being or feeling like I am being manipulated so I can relate.  Do you react to it strongly in other situations in your life?  I do... .or did.  I am getting better at dealing with it but the inner dialogue that goes on in my head is hard to quiet down.  Does that happen to you?  I have worked on this a lot and what i found is that sometimes what triggers me the most are the very sort of things I need to change in me.  So maybe the intention is different but the result is what matters.  Your reactions did not resolve things nor did they bring XL closer to you.  Yes, I know you get that.   

Anyhoo, back to you.  I don't think you were being told that you were being consciously manipulative.  Learned behaviors are usually not things we do consciously.  My ex would break up, walk away, and to me it came across as a way to bring me to heel (I like the expression you used here... .very descriptive and appropriate for my ex).  I agree that the context in which your behaviors happened is important but only to the point of seeing how you act in tense, uncomfortable and painful situations.  We can talk about XL and her behaviors and what she said till next week and it wont help.  I will tell you that if I were on the receiving end of your breaking things off the way you did or walking away, I would see it as being manipulative and I would pull away for sure.

No reply yet. And I can see by her latest update she has been back on. VERY triggering.  And I notice my mind running all over the place with that. So trying to not, as my friend calls it, "go dark".

Good.  Going dark is not healthy and won't help your situation.  It would be doing more of the same from what it sounds like.  Again, those dang learned behaviors. 

That is not a bad idea thanks. I go all Tourette's under my breath when I'm starting to lose it so that would be a good time to notice and do the 'fudge marmaluke arsenal pooppoo' instead and introduce a little "levity". I'll try it.

  REcognizing your feelings and accepting them, no matter what they are, without judgement, and allowing yourself to feel will help to not let them build and help keep you from going all dark.  Laughter is good too because lets face it, some of my inner dialogue is so weird I have to laugh. 

Mostly I think I handled myself really well. And when I didn't, I didn't help.

Well, you did not help, but you also made things worse. 

Just trying to hold on to good stuff to not let the dark stuff spin out of control and I'll try you 'oh fudge' trick when and if it does and try to get back to it.

Okay, so here is an exercise on not using over the top language to explain (and unintentionally inflame) our feelings:  The title of this thread is a direct quote from you in your last post.  How would you re-write it?       

[1stTimer]

Hi again.
 Okay, let's put the focus on you.  You said you were reactionary so we are on the same page there.  Rather than focus on XL, lets focus on you right now.  Would it be fair to say that you reacted the way you could to make 'it' (the situation) go away?  To just get away from the frustration and hurt and the pain and the tears that were burning in the back of your eyes and tightening your throat?  (I am talking here about the goodbye after the short dinner).

Harri I just have no words for it. I was about as happy as I had ever been the night before. I kid you not the moment in my kitchen was one of top 3 in my life. The repeated texts about how happy she was. The 2am text inviting me to dinner to "our place" and HER excited "just you and me! " because there had been no you and me for a month at least. I didn't even think when I turned away. I was a zombie. I was stunned and bereft and felt yes, set up. The smiling "okeydokey see you next year" really did it. I didn't process until later she was likely as bereft/confused as I (unless somehow she acted the last night which seems impossible).  I didn't do anything to do anything I just turned and stumbled away. I literally do not remember getting home. Not trying to sounds so dramatic but it was. I've had some bad moments in the last 15 years this is close to the top. No counting to ten would have stopped it I couldn't remember the # 1.

 

Ooo!  I hate being or feeling like I am being manipulated so I can relate.  Do you react to it strongly in other situations in your life?  I do... .or did.  I am getting better at dealing with it but the inner dialogue that goes on in my head is hard to quiet down.  Does that happen to you?  I have worked on this a lot and what i found is that sometimes what triggers me the most are the very sort of things I need to change in me.  So maybe the intention is different but the result is what matters.  Your reactions did not resolve things nor did they bring XL closer to you.  Yes, I know you get that.   .

Yep they were not intended to get her closer, that has been my point all along. Not the break-up. Not the walk-away. Not the WeChat. It was just pushing pain away before it could hurt me more. I've lost a lottttt in the last 15 years and I think I've learned to push it away before I can lose more. I dont know man. Yes I hate being manipulated/lied to/made a fool of.  That dinner absent the mother's dinner would have just felt bad. After tht transformational night that not only affected me (for a fact), her (if you take her words and actions and energy it was at least a much as me), The Kid ("most amazing night since I;ve been in the state") and my mother. ALL that energy emenated from her joy. So the next night it just felt like a set-up. Maybe I need to check that where the comes from. But honestly it has been a them in my life for awhile, love and business; I get my face right up against the glass and get to see this amazing life I can have and then BAM! some big farce of a joke pulls it away. It's happened enough so I'm super triggered by it. So instead of seeing "this girl was amazed by me and us last night she is terrified" I ran it through the Story Filter. I get that man. I do.

We can talk about XL and her behaviors and what she said till next week and it wont help.  I will tell you that if I were on the receiving end of your breaking things off the way you did or walking away, I would see it as being manipulative and I would pull away for sure.

Really? You might not look at your own behavior though? If you had just invited your bf out to your first dinner in weeks and your last in months and you were preoccupied with meetings, called an Uber 1/2 through and then gave him  a perfunctory "Ok see you next year" to summarzie the amazing thing between you? YOU would not watch him walking away and say "S***. I f**** up". You'd just say "what a manipulative b****"? See that has been my issue all along. Not that she might get hurt by the behavior. But that even the next morning all she could come up with was "why ? ? ?". Becaues how can you NOT see what you did? And if you don't what the heck is wrong with you.

.  

Well, you did not help, but you also made things worse

Yup. Nothing I can do about that except recognize it. Yet if anything is to come of "us" I also need her on the other end getting to that on her own about her behavior. Because all of my "need to learn not to trigger" etc won't do me a lick of good if she does not see what she has done or have the ability to say "geez I was a d*** at dinner no wonder he walked away".

Okay, so here is an exercise on not using over the top language to explain (and unintentionally inflame) our feelings:  The title of this thread is a direct quote from you in your last post.  How would you re-write it?    

:
I was emotionally eviscerated, after having my heart drawn and quartered by a she-devil?

I was hurt and shocked and had no idea what to possibly say so I turned and walked away since I could think of nothing else to do.

I know I keep returning to this but I'll still say; no chance anything happens here however much work I do here if she is not going to.  Right now I'm trying to figure out BALANCE. Because if I just go silent I think this thing dies. If I push it it dies. I need to feel out when it feels like we've both stopped spinning and can make start slowly talking again. I also feel like I need to feel her out on if she thinks it even makes sense to try to move towards each other. I just need to figure out how to be sorta silent inside to figure out when/how to do this. We didn't date for months and haven't been on a date for weeks so this thing can easily die. My guess honestly is it will and maybe she'll reach out when she returns. She's said that more than a few times I realize on our first break-up: "I have a language problem! When I return I'll be fluent I'll return to you. You are welcome in Chengdu". I realise in remembering those post break-up posts what she was saying; bye for now this is too hard. Let's pick this up in Chengdu and when I return. Ah frig man. I dont know anymore.

[Harri]

I believe you when you say your feelings were very intense the night you walked away.  I would hazard a guess and say they were pretty strong when sitting at the table while she was on the phone and when she was calling uber.  I understand the feelings and how strong they were.  I also think she sensed them as well.  Feelings that intense are obvious and easy to pick up on.  There is no way you were hiding them completely.  XL may not have understood or she may have withdrawn being overwhelmed with her own feelings and then yours on top of it.  Again, this is not blame, just a different perspective and how your story comes across to me every time I read it or when you repeat certain parts of it.  

Feelings just are but they can overwhelm others, especially when we go to our dark places or become overwhelmed.  The two of you could not really communicate and had to rely on a third party or some translator app to communicate and there is no way it conveyed the nuance that is present in these sort of situations.  What you are both left with are words that may not quite fit the situation or the feelings and the feelings themselves which are universal and will be more intense and possibly more threatening.  

Yep they were not intended to get her closer, that has been my point all along. Not the break-up. Not the walk-away. Not the WeChat. It was just pushing pain away before it could hurt me more. I've lost a lottttt in the last 15 years and I think I've learned to push it away before I can lose more.

Okay, so this is really important and insightful.  You withdraw to protect yourself.  To make the hurt stop.

So the next night it just felt like a set-up. Maybe I need to check that where the comes from. But honestly it has been a them in my life for awhile, love and business;

You definitely need to see where that comes from.  It may take a while to figure it out and that too is okay.  Be aware of your tendency and how it can bit you in the butt and how it can come across to others.  

I get my face right up against the glass and get to see this amazing life I can have and then BAM! some big farce of a joke pulls it away. It's happened enough so I'm super triggered by it. So instead of seeing "this girl was amazed by me and us last night she is terrified" I ran it through the Story Filter. I get that man. I do.

Good, I am glad you see it.  So you can see your feelings do not define her actions, but they do govern yours.  That is what being triggered means.  Often seeing things in the present that are really from the past.  Can you trace back to the first time this feeling happened (in your life I mean, not with XL)?  You have said that you do not think XL was manipulating or lying to you, but that you felt manipulated, lied to and played right?  Follow the feelings and attach them to the behaviors.  Make that connection and then you can really work on things.  Regardless of who did or said what that was wrong, you need to own your reactions and learn to respond instead.  We all need to learn this.
 

Really? You might not look at your own behavior though?

Yes, I would look at myself and my feelings and hopefully recognize what was going on for me (fear, uneasiness, sadness because I was leaving, etc) but I would also be very aware of your feelings, none of which you are talking about (never mind that we really can't) and I would do my own version of "I have to get away from the intensity and hurt" just like you did when you walked away.  It goes both ways 1T.  

But that even the next morning all she could come up with was "why ? ? ?". Becaues how can you NOT see what you did? And if you don't what the heck is wrong with you.

What is wrong with you that you could not see how some of your behaviors affected her?  Or how your feelings were quite obvious to her?  Again, it goes both ways 1T.  I will keep pulling the focus back to you.  Not to make you wrong but because that is all you can control and work on.  Figuring her out and pointing the finger at her is not going to help the most important person---> you.

Because all of my "need to learn not to trigger" etc won't do me a lick of good if she does not see what she has done or have the ability to say "geez I was a d*** at dinner no wonder he walked away".

Hmmm... .again, your focus is on her.  She is thousands of miles away and the two of you have a lot of emotional barriers going on.  The benefit of working on your triggers and your behaviors is so that you can stop repeating the same patterns and seeing the same themes crop p in your life.  So you can learn to respond rather than react and so you can actually gain freedom from being ruled by your own emotions.  Remember this:  

I get my face right up against the glass and get to see this amazing life I can have and then BAM! some big farce of a joke pulls it away. It's happened enough so I'm super triggered by it.

That is the point.  Regardless of what happens with XL.

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YOU would not watch him walking away and say "S***. I f**** up".

... .and come running after you? For a second time in 3 weeks?

your prior "friend" did not. XL didn't Harri said she wouldn't

I wouldn't. My girlfriend did this once early in the relationship. We didn't reconnect for 7 days when she finally called me. I told her that this doesn't work with me, the next time will be the last.

Ironically, my girlfriend wouldn't respond to it either - her ex-husband did this to her and she listed it as one of the things she hated in the marriage (and she ignored him and shut down when he did).

A healthy adult is not going to be responsive to this. This is a tactic that works for a teenage girl with her parents. Social media blocking - also a teen tactic. XL raised a daughter - she has seen all this before.

[1stTimer]

I believe you when you say your feelings were very intense the night you walked away.  I would hazard a guess and say they were pretty strong when sitting at the table while she was on the phone and when she was calling uber.  I understand the feelings and how strong they were.  I also think she sensed them as well.  Feelings that intense are obvious and easy to pick up on.  There is no way you were hiding them completely.  XL may not have understood or she may have withdrawn being overwhelmed with her own feelings and then yours on top of it.  Again, this is not blame, just a different perspective and how your story comes across to me every time I read it or when you repeat certain parts of it.  

I don't miss that part. Her picking up my feelings.  Yet by that point there was very little to say given the back and forth of the last few weeks. And we have... .language. I was doing my best with the little we had to communicate I wasn't sitting like a log. I made a joke about Fish Surgeons, I showed her on the phone where I used to live, I asked about her flight, etc. I was not sitting like a log sulking as has been suggested.  Hiding my feelings with the Uber would require me to be a Shaolin Monk (no pun intended). I've mentioned I thought in fact she was calling a car for US to go somewhere.  In any event I don't miss that my feelings were "picked up on" by her yet I didn't walk in with those feelings. I walked in very happy. And I kept hitting walls and no eye contact. And then the phone came out. So I don't think it is accurate to say my feelings controlled or overwhelmed the situation.

Can you trace back to the first time this feeling happened (in your life I mean, not with XL)?  

No Harri,I've been trying to say on this board even going back to last girl is I have been in a 10++ year cycle of loss and inexplicable set-backs. No one believes me. It literally feels like being cursed. I won't bore you with the 1000 inexplicable coincidences that seem to have kept me in this limbo of a life despite almost 24/7 efforts. Here is just one example however of 'similar' girl "Surprise! No Prize for you' scenario. Years back, very cute bartender I hit it off with whome I did NOT ask out because I know that is no-no. She however says 'we should hang out outside of here'. Ask her to Shakespeare in the park, I put a bottle of great Zinfandel into Starbucks Cups and add a 'Red Wine' check box on the cup. Shakespeare under the stars, amazing night. Next night she invites me to meet her, same bar, she is going on vacation. I walk her to a cab, we get two Bacci candies (the ones with the fortunes). I forget what mine says but it was relevant to 'us'. She opens hers and smile and says "I'll tell you from the cab" kisses me goodnight. She texts "You are going to kiss your new love soon". Great huh? She returns to the bar from vacation and I say something about dinner and she says "Oh sorry I don't date customers". An no didn't miss a f-ing thing.  So "first time"? No idea but this has been a cycle with dating and business for years which is just sucking my life away.

So yeah dinner definitely seemed like yet another "Surprise! Got you!".

You have said that you do not think XL was manipulating or lying to you, but that you felt manipulated, lied to and played right?  Follow the feelings and attach them to the behaviors.  Make that connection and then you can really work on things.  Regardless of who did or said what that was wrong, you need to own your reactions and learn to respond instead.  We all need to learn this

.
I'm not sure on 'make the connection'. I am not sure I even felt 'lied to' that night. I just felt like I was right back in the cycle. Amazing energy then it is pulled away.  Mostly I was thinkng "Why did she even INVITE me?" Because I didn't push after the great mother's day, I just figured we just set up some great energy for when she was away. I thought that was our send-off. She is the one who excitedly invited me out ,not out of obligation but totally spontaneously, joyously, repeating her Chengdu invite and stressing "just you and me! ".

So naturally I'm going to start feeling strange about the girl sitting across from me who can't make eye contact, can hardly make small talk (yes, I was trying), and calls an Uber. Since she says she didn't know what was wrong it seems to me it just seemed normal to her.

I'm unsure what you think my response should have been. Small talk didn't work. She was hardly there. Eye contact didn't work. So what was left was slurping a whole fist with chopsticks.  And where it got weird is she asked for my full name again, said her friends wanted to invite me to something (?) then took her phone out and started makng a call.I assumed it was her friends she mentioned. She said "I called an Uber" so I figured for wherever we were going, i.e. there must be some surprise, some send off right? Nope.

So again unclear of my options now. Smile? Say okey dokey I'll take those few minutes she gave me in silence and be happy? Not show my feelings? Put on a fake smile? Say sure ok uber it is hey it's been fun?

And again it was the cheesy smile "Ok see ya next year!". If our genders were reversed Harri I'd have gotten a backhand slap out of that. I just said "ok good night" and then walked away. Because what else WAS there to say? "See ya next year!"? Clearly not a hug. Clearly nothing emotional since that was shut down. A fake smile? An attempt at a kiss that would be rebuffed? Please, I'd really like to know what my option was besides simply saying "Ok good night".

And clearly don't see how anything I did above is affecting HER in anyway that makes HER feel hurt or rebuffed. I had no option for reply. No way I was repeating 'see ya next year! see ya next time'. No hug, no kiss, no affectionate words were even possible it was shut down.

I just simply don't buy that if you were in the same scenario with a man visiting you'd had an affair with and he did that you would not feel utterly used and discarded. And I didn't slap her or yell at her or scold her. I said "ok good night" and waked  away.

Not sure why I'm gettng so much flack for that here honestly.

What is wrong with you that you could not see how some of your behaviors affected her?  Or how your feelings were quite obvious to her?

But I do see. I've addressed them with her. I haven't ever gotten a measure of reciprocation from her about that. My feelings had to have been obvious to her. I get it. And then... what? I didn't walk in with those feelings. They developed over the course of the dinner as I tried to make some conversation. So she noticed as she was either preoccupied or shut down or scared or whatever she was that her single word answers were starting to affect my mood? That makes it seem like MY reaction to her is what caused her to leave. According to her she was simply going to pick up clients which if that is to believed meant my feelings were inconsequential. She put in her 30 minutes and moved on to her business. I was supposed to happily accept the time and the silence.

I mean seriously. If I did that to a woman I'd pick up her feelings and not turn the night around because she felt hurt by my behavior. And yeah if she just said 'good night' and walked away I'd get I deserved it.

So you can learn to respond rather than react and so you can actually gain freedom from being ruled by your own emotions.  Remember this:   That is the point.  Regardless of what happens with XL.

I get that part, I do. WeChat, bad move. Response during dinner and walk away with just good night I don't. I had no options. There was a WALL.  And I'm truly not clear how a response would have differed from my reaction. Other than faking calmness and happiness and repeating 'Ok yeah, see you next year! Bye!' and opening the door to her uber.

[1stTimer]

... .and come running after you? For a second time in 3 weeks?

I did not walk out on her before. I broke up with her. She didn't come "running back". They are not analogous behaviors at all. I'd hardly be shocked if I kept canceling on a girl I was dating without excuse or apology and made it clear I didn't want to be intimate with her and made my friends more important than a dinner with her and I was leaving in 3 weeks. I'd get it. Really. And either be honest (not that into you; scared of getting to close, whatever) or prioritize her if she were important.

your prior "friend" did not.

Can I ask again you please leave her out and stop making analogies about her? I didn't "walk out" on her there was no similar behavior. You said that even during that incident and I've corrected you multiple times. I didn't "break up" with her. I allowed myself to get spun into some insane commitment scenario of ever increasing hurdles and when I finally cleared the last hurdle she acted like I'd asked for something she didn't want and broke up with ME. Inexcusable insane behavior. I walked out on her in shock and disgust. Not to "make a point". Please just leave her out of it she doesn't belong in the same Universe as XL. It is profane to even mention her here.

XL didn't

XL didn;
Harri said she wouldn't[/td][/tr][/table]

I wouldn't. My girlfriend did this once early in the relationship. We didn't reconnect for 7 days when she finally called me. I told her that this doesn't work with me, the next time will be the last.

Well I guess we part company here too. If my GF used it as a way to get things she wanted or to get her way I'd hate it. But in context and the right situation, I'd completely get it. I don't want a 'harumph' drama queen. But goddamn if I spent 3 weeks canceling on my gf without excuses day after day and week after week and as a last straw cancelled a dinner *I* asked for because my friends couldn't make it and I said 'well the only time my FRIENDS and I are free is lunch" and she faid F this and broke up with me I wouldn't think something was wrong with her.

Likewise if I invited her to a last dinner before I left for months, the first I'd made time for with her for weeks and then sat there like a monosyllabic log and called for a car 1/2 through dinner and said to this woman I'd made love to and pretended to want a future with "Ok see ya!" as if she were just some disposable toy, yeah man I'd get and deserved her turning on her heel. Context. WHATEVER reason I was acting the way I was. If I was distracted by business and felt I'd done by duty and given her my valuable 30 mins she should be grateful for. If I was overwhelmed by sadness and confusion and could hardly speak. I'd get why she turned and left an would not consider it manipulative, toxic or immature. Context.

A healthy adult is not going to be responsive to this. This is a tactic that works for a teenage girl with her parents. Social media blocking - also a teen tactic. XL raised a daughter - she has seen all this before.

Not even worthy of a response as it is nasty and mean spirited. If she raised a teen daughter she also knows how s**** teenage girls can be and can see her own behavior. If XL is so 'attuned' to 'grown up' behavior and teenage behavior she is in tune enough to see her own behavior was juvenile and hurtful.  You KEEP calling XL the healthy adult here and I get tired of it. Her behavior was decidedly not adult and not caring. She doesn't get to act like that and then get upset when someone else acts out.  Deciding you are checking out of a relationship and not telling the other person and leading them to believe it still exists because you may want to revisti it is not ADULT or HEALTHY. Her behavior at dinner was not ADULT or HEALTHY no matter how I responded.  Every response I had was taken from me at every step of the way; feedback, response, emotional honesty, ANY kind of honesty. So I'm not the teenage girl here, please refrain from that analogy. It is insulting and my behavior doesn't warrnt that. Sorry if you got up on the wrong side of the bed.

Here is what else the 'healthy adult' did not respond to; gentle probing if there was something wrong when she distanced herself emotionally and physically, direct questions regarding the same, letters offering her both a graceful out AND a door to walk through, 'negotiations' about her concerns, space and time, and having every one of her concerns addressed graciously and with love and caring, apologies, explanations, you name it. And you wonder why I'd break up or walk out? This "adult" did nothing except take care of her own heart and needs and shut down utterly in terms of sharing a single feeling with me and continues to do so.That is HER mechanism. Does it trigger me? Sure. As a f(( teenage girl? No. As a man who opened and committed his heart to a woman who asked for it and continued to.

Note my most recent exchange with her where she dragged me back into weChat the moment she could. She asked pointed questions about anger/unhappiness, understanding her more, to explain the text. I REPLIED like an adult, gently, explained in detail. As I did in fact regarding the last dinner before she left. Her reply after 3 days "Thank you very much. I miss you". That is not a reply. That is a fortune cookie. She's a smart lady. She could reply and get it translated. She has refused, once she decided to 'protect herself', to give me a thing but sitll wants to hear from me.

Note our 'translation' evening. It was not about me. It was her concerns; you'll date other women, I'm too old, you won't like an ambitious woman, I don't know your mother. ME addressing HER issues and needs. I had to PRY out of them whether she saw this as a serious relationship she wanted to pursue.

My reactions here aren't tantrums because I'm not getting what I want. They are frustrations at a woman (ya know the 'adult' and 'healthy' one here) who has decided that the way to have a relationship with me is to keep her heart and feelings and thoughts protected while asking for mine. That has been the theme and the meme for weeks. She ain't the adult here. She may have been a mother for 20+ years but she also has not DATED and has lost the ability. I don't know how her marriage transpired but clearly she picked up some bad habits. Yep I've got mine but she has hers.

Note our LAST exchange was her reaching out to ask how I was and I replied Monday 2am. We are going on 3 days. Was the point to let me know she just doesn't care how I am? Clearly she knows what the emotional impact and implication of inviting me back on weChat and saying "Please understand me more" is. She's the adult here right? Yet I'm right back to distance on her terms. So i get to wait. For her to want more. Or to post "subtle" reminders like "The Beauitful City of Chengdu" the day after she invites me back to WeChat. That is adult? THAT is teenage.

[1stTimer]

A healthy adult is not going to be responsive to this. This is a tactic that works for a teenage girl with her parents. Social media blocking - also a teen tactic. XL raised a daughter - she has seen all this before.

and this is the exact kind of interaction I referred to earlier. not even the tone but the meme; other person (her or last girl, doesn' matter) mature, healthy, behavior understandable and acceptable. Me: reactive, toxic, immature and now I'm a teenage girl.

And the only way you can get there is to utterly ignore the realities of what happened. I didn't stomp out in a snit because she wouldn't kiss me. Or agree on a vacation spot.

I walked away after saying "ok good night" because there was nothing else to say and no other action or response because it was all. shut. down. and it hurt.  And I'd spent literally WEEKS putting myself on the line, waiting, being patient, being kind, understanding, answering concerns, making gestures, writing letters, trying to understand, and being true in body and spirit to what she asked for.   And other than addressing her concerns and needs got almost nothing in return, really not a WORD. Yup she was worried I'd sleep around.  She thinks she's too old. Check. Needs to meet my mother. Scared I won't follow. Scared I won't visit. Scared I''m a player. Needs to know what I like about her. Needs to hear from her friends I'm serious. Got it got it got it.  But she's not going to risk a thing while getting all that.  Because God forbid she puts her heart on the line while asking for mine. I mean it is ok for her friend to know (while she comes to Meet My Mother) that she checked out weeks ago to protect "us" just not me. Why do YOU think that is? Because she is a healthy adult?

So the situation in CONTEXT is a woman who has spent weeks keeping me in the dark, in pain, in confusion, without really a WORD about her commitment or feelings which she suddenly put in a box so much she can't say I miss you or even "Dear" like she did 100 times a day, can't even REPLY to them is sitting like a stone after I've done literally everything a man can do to make HER feel assured and wanted and loved though word and deed.  And I'm on the street after being emotionally stonewalled on our last night together for 1/2 a year that she just cut short and she's basically saying 'buh bye!' like it is all a big joke. At a dinner SHE asked for. So I said 'good night' and walked away. Yup. She's the healthy adult and I'm the teenager.  That takes an act of willful ignorance to get to.

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Stage Four Rather than face the pain and overwhelm they expect to experience, partners who have reached this third 'defensive' stage, may progress to the forth and final stage of breakdown, characterized by a breakdown of basic trust between the partners, and increasing disengagement in the name of self-protection. Like a steam-valve in a pressure cooker, the partners start avoiding one another so as to minimize their conflicts. Gottman calls this final stage, "Stonewalling", perhaps after the image of a partner hiding behind a stone wall designed to protect him or her from further assault. Unfortunately, there is no way to love your partner when you are hiding behind a wall to protect yourself from him or her.

The "four horsemen" breakdown sequence plays out amongst the backdrop of partner compatibility. Basically compatible partners may demonstrate a whole lot of conflict, but they don't often become contemptuous and angry with their partners, because there are by definition few things that they will disagree upon. In contrast, partners who start out with incompatible goals, values or dreams are far more likely to get into seemingly irresolvable conflicts. Also, once the process of contempt, defensiveness and avoidance begins, small incompatibilities can become magnified as spouses pursue other interests as an alternative to conflict.
https://bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down

John Gottman's research has concluded that there is an 88% divorce rate among  couples where this tactic is present (stonewalling, faux break ups, walking away, etc,) The number is likely higher in unmarried couples who are not in therapy.

It very well may be the only option you feel you had... .it may the best you could do... .but it is a destructive action if preserving the relationship is desired... .regardless of the cause.

Nonetheless, you have pointed out that your relationship was not won or lost on this single action.  I agree.

The relationship was teetering on the edge after a breakup and 30+ days or no one-on-one time. There was bad chemistry in that last meeting and there was no buffer, and no extra day, to recover from a bad chemistry day.  The walk away, the social media blocking, and the rant with the translator certainly punctuated the fall, but the resultant bad chemistry from the totality of what happened was most likely the most detrimental thing to the relationship.

[1stTimer]

The relationship was teetering on the edge after a breakup and 30+ days or no one-on-one time. There was bad chemistry in that last meeting and there was no buffer, and no extra day, to recover from a bad chemistry day.  The walk away, the social media blocking, and the rant with the translator certainly punctuated the fall, but the resultant bad chemistry from the totality of what happened was most likely the most detrimental thing to the relationship.

You can write it off if you want, I don't. I also do not believe he shared my 'rant' and my rant btw was not attacking. Much of it as he got was simply my sadness and my love of her. It wasn't 'that g b' rant.

If the "bad chemistry", the walk, the social media, etc destroyed us there would be no reason to reach out to my mother, no reason to text before she took off, no reason to text when she landed, no reason to reply at 4am a week later the moment I texted a nice message ("mostly you make me happy"), no reason to invite me to WeChat (I mean NONE at all), no reason to ask me to understand her more, no reason to ask for clarification on the text, no reason to reply 'thank you very much. I miss you", no reason to do the Beatiful City of Chengdu (yes for me) the day after I reconnected, no reason to reach out and say Hi how are you.

She could have flown 1/2 around the world and let her phone expire and I'd have zero chance of ever reaching or seeing her again.

I'm not denying what happened hurt us, OR my actions did not make it worse. I truly and completely get it and feel horrible about it. For myself, for her, for us. I don't get the feeling she has the ability to deal with or commnicate things like this. Possibly culturally, possibly because she has not been in a romantic relationship for decades. I get that and should have been far more attuned to that rather than my own hurt.  So expecting her to be as communicative as I or to deal with a relationship when she hasnt had one since I was probably in  my early 20s was stupid and selfish. I get that too.

I think in whatever limited way she has she is trying to reconnect otherwise she'd have simply not replied and disappeared into the middle of China which may as well be Mars.

So, using some of the insights I have about myself here, I'm going to try to gently re-engage. Maybe that simply comes down to light banter, I learn Mandarin, get my biz together and we see when she returns if there is something still. I truly believe there is Skip because, given we haven't had a freaking conversation something deep and amazing is keeping us both engaged.

My plan for tomorrow; I'm going to video the Tday parade from my window and send her some clips and tell her how special that day was for me growing up, how we used to have 100s of people by, etc.  Some nice 'postcard' from NY happy and upbeat. See if I can establish some nice conversation that goes beyond 'Hi how are you?" but doesn't even venture near any thing in the past or about "us".

[1stTimer]

The walk away, the social media blocking, and the rant with the translator certainly punctuated the fall, but the resultant bad chemistry from the totality of what happened was most likely the most detrimental thing to the relationship.

Addendum to whether this is 'over' or not. The above are detrimental things from her perspective. I have determinantal things spanning weeks before this when she was "protecting" herself.

None of this has changed how I feel about her at my core or my wanting to pursue this. When you add that into the language and distance it is pretty remarkable.

As per my last post she is clearly still holding on to some hope or vestige as well.

Whether this is enough time will tell but given all the challenges it is pretty remarkable both of our hats are till in the ring. I'll report back after Tday Wechat.

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You can write it off if you want, I don't.

I don't have any insight into this nor do I want to speculate. You are broken up. Yesterday you said it is done... .did you mean that yesterday or was that emotion in the moment? Today - "clearly there is hope" - great.

When members come to Saving a Relationship Board the key thing we spend time on is "how are you going to be different?". If they go back with the same formula and tools, it's 99% sure they will come back with the same result. They might recycle a few times, but we have few examples of long term recovery without significant changes. The mantra there is nothing changes without changes.

You face a bigger challenge than most members who have been in relationships longer and are local to each other.

In reading your posts for the last month, you have been absolutely steadfast on your belief in your instincts, assessments of her, and your relationships tools/skills. You have have vigorously defended them and debated/dismissed any suggestions of change. You have assessed XL as having severe fear of abandonment and not having the aptitude to date. Anytime you feel insecure, you have questioned her integrity, her fidelity, and her authenticity. You have repeatedly stated that your actions, "while they could be better", are not central to the state of the relationship today - it is her fears, possibly her elders, her dating aptitude, her selfishness and/or insensitivity that has brought the relationship down.

What will be different in the next round if she opens up to it?

The above are detrimental things from her perspective. I have determinantal things spanning weeks before this when she was "protecting" herself.

OK, there is more to add to that list of her issues.

If the two of you sit down to reconnect, what needs to change to make this work? 

[1stTimer]

In reading your posts for the last month, you have been absolutely steadfast on your belief in your instincts, assessments of her, and your relationships tools/skills. You have have vigorously defended them and debated/dismissed any suggestions of change. You have assessed XL as having severe fear of abandonment and not having the aptitude to date. Anytime you feel insecure, you have questioned her integrity, her fidelity, and her authenticity. You have repeatedly stated that your actions, "while they could be better", are not central to the state of the relationship today - it is her fears, possibly her elders, her dating aptitude, her selfishness and/or insensitivity that has brought the relationship down.

I'd stand by most of that yet. I'll clarify a few things; I don't think she has a "severe fear of abandonment". I think she had a realistic fear of falling in love in October given where we were in September and feared going past the point of no return and then having to fly 1/2 around the world and being hopelessly in love with an American man who didn't speak English. The Kid said as much. I never characterized any personality disorder. I called the issue well before it was clarified to me (and was roundly debated about it).  Her fear  AND her inability or unwillingness to share that and to keep me in the dark ARE central to what happened. How I dealt with it is another story. I've said I could have handled it better. Things might be better now. I don't know.

I stand by her not having the EXPERIENCE of dating, of dealing with break-ups or heartache or communication in a romantic relationship since likely it has been decades since she has.

And I questioned her authenticity not when I felt insecure but when her actions were confusing and questionable.  I didn't start with "her integrity, her fidelity, and her authenticity" as a kneejerk reaction when she pulled away or when I broke up with her.  Those entered in slowly as she simply refused to communicate, shed light, or in any way other than getting her own fears/needs/concerns met gave me any solace/insights. At some point it became questionable.

At some point a person saying "nothing is wrong you have nothing to worry about" who suddenly goes to Boston for ten days and, intentionally or not blocks you from their updates, and stops texting you starts to become suspect. For any sane man or woman.

When a woman tells you she is a simple public school teacher and hasn't dated in a year after a divorce from a simple man she wanted more from and suddenly you see pictures of her looking like the Chinese Paris Hilton, you start to question who she is and if your choice to remain trusting and faithful to her was the right one.  

You keep casting this as some relationship issue I have. I do not and never have.

Her issues ARE central to what brought the relationship down.  If I had reacted differently at any stage things might be better they'd still be largely the same.  Because she was not going to communicate or share or do anything to risk herself. That is all a fact. Mine is I could have been less reactive. But our issues aren't because I am 'insecure' I was secure through a lot of behavior other men would have run from and understanding a well. I'm not adopting some personality issues or disorders in order to move forward with her or this and NOT discounting some real issues about her that she continues to display. As per prior posts one of those being inviting me back into her orbit and then ignoring me (again). I'll find a way to not react and I'll find a way to not trigger and I'll find a way to not  fall into the old dialogue and be more open to who she is and where she is coming from instead of who I am and where I am coming from.

None of this changes the facts on the ground about what happened. It isn't about 'pointing fingers' it's about not taking ownership of what I don't own (which won't help me or her) and taking ownerhsip of what I do own. Which is why I'm here right?

So I can be more understanding about who she is and where she comes from and her fears and concerns and her communication style and not let it trigger me. And then I can either give her all the space in the world or figure out some way to give her a safe place to tiptoe back in and make sure to never trigger again.

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Her issues ARE central to what brought the relationship down.  If I had reacted differently at any stage things might be better they'd still be largely the same.  Because she was not going to communicate or share or do anything to risk herself. That is all a fact.

What does she need to own/fix?

You keep casting this as some relationship issue I have. I do not and never have.

What do you need to own/fix? Anything?

[1stTimer]

What does she need to own/fix?

I can't really call her needs since I still don't have any accurate assessment of what happened I'm still spinning between all the possibilities. If she is who I thought and we had what I thought?

She needs to learn to communicate even if she can't speak English. Clearly she was able to with my mother. And no it wasn't because I'd shut her down, my whole month was her not communicating.

She needs to learn to take me into account when she makes decisions or take actions. She's great at things like knowing I wouldn't want to see the 'no thanks' text from her friend before I had my Big Meeting so clearly she can think about me and take my concerns into account. She does not seem to be able to when she is involved. Most of this to me seems to be putting her heart on the line. As I said even recently when she asked me to open up about a lot and I did and I got a very unrevealing reply. She either can't or won't say anything that puts her heart at risk thought she is more than willing to ask me to do so.  That is quite hard on me.  I'm still sitting her 2  1/2 days later after replying to her text wondering and waiting. I'd never do that to her.

What do you need to own/fix?

Me

Haircut.

Ha.

Well #1 is not let the trigger voice take over. Part of that I think is being prepared not just listening for it. Like when I talked to the Kid. I should have been prepared for anything and reminded myself to listen not talk.

In fact #1 might be to learn to listen not talk. Or whenever I have a choice between the two choose the former. I guess I always think words will solve things and they clearly never do, mostly the opposite. A hard lesson but true.

I need to learn to hear her not from my own perspective but hers. If I wrapped my head around her reality instead of mine, I'd probably be in a lot better position now since I would not have been saying 'aha!' or 'she doesnt' love me' or whatever I thought and instead I'd be much more in tune with her reality; frustrated by language, first serious intimate relationship in years, pressure from family and friends, leaving in a month, challenges of business and friends and study and me. And I'd have come to some better conclusions about WHY which would have let me come to better decisions about what to say or do or not say or not do next.

I still think my best communication was my first letter. It was strong, and confident and caring and gave her the space to leave and the space to re-enter. If I can hold on to the spirit of that moving forward I think it will be good.

Also I think what I can 'fix' is trying to fix this ASAP. If we have as much as I think or hope it can survive a few months, even if we both date and just continue to slowly rebuild our connection. She returns in the summer maybe my goals are in no paritcular order 1) get my business up and running and get some security and peace and stability back in my life. Not having that influences my behavior and decision significantly. 2) re-establish some nice easy connection with her. let us both reexperience that simple and nice energy 3) learn mandarin. Partially because it will help to talk to her more and partially to demonstarte that talking to her is important enough for me to make the same effort.

[1stTimer]

What do you need to own/fix? Anything?

Possibly, not be so quick to ascribe nefarious agendas to other people's behavior and altruistic ones to my own.

[tin]

Thank you for sharing your struggles and opening up yourself for others to weigh in on their thoughts and interpretations. It's interesting to get a glimpse into other peoples thought processes.

Starting a new relationship is so intense. The excitement, the hope, the fear, the uncertainty. The excitement about the chemistry and attraction and wanting to get to know each other, the hopes about the future, the fear about whether this person is a good match who will treat you well and not damage you or your life if you let them in, the uncertainty about whether you really like them, or if they really like you. I haven't really dated for several years since I was in a long relationship. my friend gave me the advice that when I start dating (was poking around on a dating app out of curiosity and loneliness) to just start off with no expectations, just getting to know each other. And gradually see if I want things to process, if the other person wants things to process and then figure it out down the line. The very idea of it makes me feel stressed and anxious, and self critical, and critical of the potential person. It makes the idea of dating feel very stressful, emotionally exhausting, and draining. Part of me remembers back when I was single, and I would be relaxed and enjoying myself at a party or on a camping trip or whatever, and I would just talk to new people, share what was on my mind, my philosophical theories of the moment, and eventually realize that the person I had been talking to was actually interested in me romantically. It's like a flip switches in me and it's much less fun and enjoyable and I start analyzing them, and our conversations, and I wonder how much of that is hinged on the "expectations". I wouldn't like it when they would indicate an expectation of a relationship and would become critical of every potential problem and start getting worried. And become distant and aloof. Whereas when I just interacting with them for the fun of it, and without any expectations, and blissfully ignorant about their interpretation of the interactions and their expectations- just talking, maybeee sometimes even cuddling, and being in the moment without examining what I want out of a relationship and whether they offer that. I wish I could hold onto that mindset of enjoying getting to know someone, perhaps with stronger physicals boundaries until later on or after figuring out whether I want a relationship and how to handle that possibility? Since those days I've become much more wary about any interaction with new people, and continually worry about sending any sort of message/flirting vibes (possibly picked up that anxiety from repeated encounters of falling into something getting caught up in the moment, or all the accusations from my ex whenever I would talk with a guy, my ex would think I was into them).

While you and this lady might have had an intense connection and really enjoyed that, and physically and emotionally jumped into each others lives, and then later tried to sift through things. It seems like there's no one right formula of course, but I hope that I can figure out how to be present in the moment and enjoy the company and fun/excitement/validation of getting to know someone and seeing where it goes, while both reflecting on what I want, and not getting overly paralyzed into analyzing the situation and getting preoccupied with imagined futures unknowns.

I think the idea of counting to ten makes sense when feeling emotionally overwhelmed. I get very emotionally overwhelmed in these sorts of situations too. I think focusing on the breath- and taking a few slow long breaths can help. I also think there are some 'grounding' exercises that help too- taking a few moments to ground into the present moment- to notice what you see, what you smell, what you feel, etc. Just observing the moment. And reminding yourself of where you are. When I get upset sometimes I just want to shut down and hide and watch tv and shut down. But sometimes I channel that anger, anxiety, etc to something physical- cleaning, going for a walk, brushing my hair, washing my face, drinking some water. Brushing my hair circulates the blood in the scalp or something and makes me feel energized. Splashing cold water of course feels good. And those acts of self care can remind me that I'm important and I need to value myself regardless of what someone else thinks about me, regardless of what's going to happen in the future. I talked to my T about these alternatives, bc the grounding exercises (breathing and noticed my present moment) can make me feel more emotional, more aware of how upset I am. And those little self care actions can help in a moment of getting caught up in my head and spiraling while the breathing/observation tactics are more helpful when I'm not in a moment of emotional turmoil but trying to stay centered, grounded, and present in a typical moment rather than dissociating, suppressing, trying to pretend based on how I think I should feel/do/be rather than listening and allowing how I truly am.

I think you are far from alone in your struggles to remain calm and centered when feeling so hopeful and excited, and noticing mixed signals and uncertainly about what the relationship will bring, if it's going somewhere. And certainly the deadline of figuring it out since there's so much pressure to figure it out within the limited time available - so many other people involved (all her friends and such know about you two and observing it play out, etc.).