BPD (him) meets CPTSD (me) and clashes over space

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I thought my boyfriend (with BPD) and I were doing pretty well overall and making a fair job of playing a crap hand. But yesterday something happened that is making me totally rethink whether I want to stay with him or not. I will need to post some background context about myself for this to make sense, so bear with me.

Like many people on both sides of BPD/non relationships, I had a traumatic childhood. With a lot of work, I gradually recovered from most of it and built for myself a secure and stable foundation of self-love and acceptance that is rock solid. Neither he nor anyone else has the power or ability to undermine it. But there are still a few residue triggers for me that lead to emotional flashbacks where the stable, secure, confident person I have become temporarily regresses to a terrified child.

One of these triggers is feeling like I don't have control over my space/home. One way that people with complex PTSD from childhood can ground themselves during emotional flashbacks is to consciously affirm all the resources that are available to them now which they didn't have back then, and this is something I practice regularly. One thing I need to be able to say to myself is this "When I was a child, I had no escape route, no place of safety, security and privacy. Now I am an adult with my own home. I control that space. I choose who to let in. I can always go there to retreat and feel safe. This is something I have now that I didn't have then". And this makes a big difference to me.

My boyfriend knows all of the above. I have talked to him about it in-depth.

Well... .For the last week or so I was trying to quit smoking and doing really well. I was worried about my boyfriend coming to stay, because he is a smoker and I thought it might be too soon for me to be around another smoker. In addition to that, I suffer with terrible PMS (probably undiagnosed PMDD) and my period is due soon. So, all in all, I wasn't feeling up to boyfriend coming to stay. I felt the need to be alone and practice self-care. I felt the need for space from other smokers in order to stabilise my new non-smoking routines. And I felt the need to be free to be irritable or weepy without having to take care of his feelings about it. I needed to focus on me.

So I explained all this to my boyfriend and said I would appreciate it if we could put his visit back by a few days. I took care to say that I loved spending time with him but wanted to be at my best when we did so I could enjoy it more. I took care to say that one reason I was quitting smoking was so that I could be around longer and enjoy a future with him. I did all that, but... .It still (predictably) triggered his abandonment issues. And those triggered a stream of ceaseless and super-personal abuse. I could have coped with that just about, but... .

Then (hours later) he texted me and said "I'm on the train and I'm coming up to your house whether you like it or not and there is f*** all you can do to stop me".

Then I was triggered. I was a terrified child again, who would be trapped in a house with an abuser, unable to escape. I can't explain how frightened I felt, but those here who have struggled with PTSD and emotional flashbacks will understand.

It took everything in me to fight the sense of powerlessness and helplessness and remind myself that I am not that child and that I do have the right to control my space and the power to enforce that boundary. So I phoned him and said that, if he does turn up uninvited, forces his way in and refuses to leave, then I will have no choice but to call the police to remove him. I didn't feel good about this. I felt crap about it, to be honest. I felt like a complete b**ch. But I knew that I needed to say that for me, for my mental health.

Well, as you'd expect, he didn't react well to this. More verbal abuse, an escalation in threats. And a mocking, gloating, contemptuous insistence that if he wanted to come to my house then he would and not even the police would be able to stop him. And he was laughing in cruel way about how there was nothing I could do. Then he hung up and started sending teasing texts "You have no way of telling if I'm lying or not. Lock your doors cos you don't know if I'm outside right now" and things like this. Then he said he'd turned back and wasn't coming. Then he said he'd lied about that and was waiting round the corner and would stay there all night. And general ongoing head f*** stuff like that.

And I confess I was an emotional wreck.

He didn't turn up (thank God) but I will never know whether he was outside or whether he ever even set out. And I am determined not to try and figure that out - I won't give headspace to those games. The point remains that he was blatantly trying to mess with head and leave me on edge waiting for my door to be kicked in. And he was trying to undermine my feeling of being in control of my own space, when he knows how much it means to me. (Please, no one tell me not to mind read - it was blatant).

And I do not ever want to feel like that again.

Maybe I could have posted this on the bettering board. Maybe I could try to learn not to let this get to me, how to reinforce my awareness that I'm not a child and I do have choices and the power to enforce my boundaries now. Maybe I could try to learn how not to be rocked by this kind of thing in future. But... .

Honestly, why should I? (Rhetorical). I have put so much work into changing myself and my attitudes and reactions, into making me and only me responsible for my emotional states and well-being. And I have done really well. And now I kind of feel "No. There are limits. There are limits to how much I have to learn how to handle. Some things no one should have to handle." And I kinda feel this is one of them. I kinda feel I shouldn't have to learn how to emotionally strengthen myself to the point where I can detach from threats to invade my space - I should just detach from any person who even tries it.

But, it's early days. I need more time to think and process before I decide which way to jump. What I do know for certain though is that I will never let him reduce me to that place of childhood terror ever again. IF I continue in the relationship, it will only be if I know that, next time he tries this, I will not wait in terror to see if my door gets kicked in - I will call police on first threat and ask them to warn him off, I will keep my phone by my side in case they need calling again, I will remind myself that I do control my space and don't have to let him in when he's being abusive, and then I will get the hell on with my night and not give it another thought. Whether I stay with him or not, I will not be put in that place again.

[Bnonymous]

I thought my boyfriend (with BPD) and I were doing pretty well overall and making a fair job of playing a crap hand. But yesterday something happened that is making me totally rethink whether I want to stay with him or not. I will need to post some background context about myself for this to make sense, so bear with me.

Like many people on both sides of BPD/non relationships, I had a traumatic childhood. With a lot of work, I gradually recovered from most of it and built for myself a secure and stable foundation of self-love and acceptance that is rock solid. Neither he nor anyone else has the power or ability to undermine it. But there are still a few residue triggers for me that lead to emotional flashbacks where the stable, secure, confident person I have become temporarily regresses to a terrified child.

One of these triggers is feeling like I don't have control over my space/home. One way that people with complex PTSD from childhood can ground themselves during emotional flashbacks is to consciously affirm all the resources that are available to them now which they didn't have back then, and this is something I practice regularly. One thing I need to be able to say to myself is this "When I was a child, I had no escape route, no place of safety, security and privacy. Now I am an adult with my own home. I control that space. I choose who to let in. I can always go there to retreat and feel safe. This is something I have now that I didn't have then". And this makes a big difference to me.

My boyfriend knows all of the above. I have talked to him about it in-depth.

Well... .For the last week or so I was trying to quit smoking and doing really well. I was worried about my boyfriend coming to stay, because he is a smoker and I thought it might be too soon for me to be around another smoker. In addition to that, I suffer with terrible PMS (probably undiagnosed PMDD) and my period is due soon. So, all in all, I wasn't feeling up to boyfriend coming to stay. I felt the need to be alone and practice self-care. I felt the need for space from other smokers in order to stabilise my new non-smoking routines. And I felt the need to be free to be irritable or weepy without having to take care of his feelings about it. I needed to focus on me.

So I explained all this to my boyfriend and said I would appreciate it if we could put his visit back by a few days. I took care to say that I loved spending time with him but wanted to be at my best when we did so I could enjoy it more. I took care to say that one reason I was quitting smoking was so that I could be around longer and enjoy a future with him. I did all that, but... .It still (predictably) triggered his abandonment issues. And those triggered a stream of ceaseless and super-personal abuse. I could have coped with that just about, but... .

Then (hours later) he texted me and said "I'm on the train and I'm coming up to your house whether you like it or not and there is f*** all you can do to stop me".

Then I was triggered. I was a terrified child again, who would be trapped in a house with an abuser, unable to escape. I can't explain how frightened I felt, but those here who have struggled with PTSD and emotional flashbacks will understand.

It took everything in me to fight the sense of powerlessness and helplessness and remind myself that I am not that child and that I do have the right to control my space and the power to enforce that boundary. So I phoned him and said that, if he does turn up uninvited, forces his way in and refuses to leave, then I will have no choice but to call the police to remove him. I didn't feel good about this. I felt crap about it, to be honest. I felt like a complete b**ch. But I knew that I needed to say that for me, for my mental health.

Well, as you'd expect, he didn't react well to this. More verbal abuse, an escalation in threats. And a mocking, gloating, contemptuous insistence that if he wanted to come to my house then he would and not even the police would be able to stop him. And he was laughing in cruel way about how there was nothing I could do. Then he hung up and started sending teasing texts "You have no way of telling if I'm lying or not. Lock your doors cos you don't know if I'm outside right now" and things like this. Then he said he'd turned back and wasn't coming. Then he said he'd lied about that and was waiting round the corner and would stay there all night. And general ongoing head f*** stuff like that.

And I confess I was an emotional wreck.

He didn't turn up (thank God) but I will never know whether he was outside or whether he ever even set out. And I am determined not to try and figure that out - I won't give headspace to those games. The point remains that he was blatantly trying to mess with head and leave me on edge waiting for my door to be kicked in. And he was trying to undermine my feeling of being in control of my own space, when he knows how much it means to me. (Please, no one tell me not to mind read - it was blatant).

And I do not ever want to feel like that again.

Maybe I could have posted this on the bettering board. Maybe I could try to learn not to let this get to me, how to reinforce my awareness that I'm not a child and I do have choices and the power to enforce my boundaries now. Maybe I could try to learn how not to be rocked by this kind of thing in future. But... .

Honestly, why should I? (Rhetorical). I have put so much work into changing myself and my attitudes and reactions, into making me and only me responsible for my emotional states and well-being. And I have done really well. And now I kind of feel "No. There are limits. There are limits to how much I have to learn how to handle. Some things no one should have to handle." And I kinda feel this is one of them. I kinda feel I shouldn't have to learn how to emotionally strengthen myself to the point where I can detach from threats to invade my space - I should just detach from any person who even tries it.

But, it's early days. I need more time to think and process before I decide which way to jump. What I do know for certain though is that I will never let him reduce me to that place of childhood terror ever again. IF I continue in the relationship, it will only be if I know that, next time he tries this, I will not wait in terror to see if my door gets kicked in - I will call police on first threat and ask them to warn him off, I will keep my phone by my side in case they need calling again, I will remind myself that I do control my space and don't have to let him in when he's being abusive, and then I will get the hell on with my night and not give it another thought. Whether I stay with him or not, I will not be put in that place again.

[Notwendy]

First, I want to commend you for your boundary- recognizing that you needed time alone for self care, that having someone smoking around you would make it hard for you to stay the course of quitting, that you were not up for company- you were irritable, and that this is not a good time for him to visit. You expressed this to him. That took some strength.

His reaction to your boundary was not supportive. You also mentioned the consequences- if he shows up- you will call the police. He didn't show up. I hope that if he did you would have followed through on this. It's important that when we state a boundary and consequences- that we do follow through, otherwise our words don't have meaning.

Basically- we can not control another person, only ourselves. If we specifically ask someone to not visit, and they choose to do that,  then, our option is to call the police to have them removed. People learn by natural consequences. The consequence of trespassing/harassment is to face the police. Your BF needs to learn that. If you were to allow him to visit when you told him not to, he would not learn that.

Good for you for sticking up for yourself.

I don't know the future of your relationship but you want one where your boundaries are respected. The choice your BF has is to either do that or not- and face the consequences of his choices.

What you may have experienced is the extinction burst in response to your boundary. Sometimes a person may escalate to get what they want. What you need to do is to hold firm to the boundary through the escalation response in order for them to get the message that a boundary is a boundary. If your BF has done this before- escalate- and gotten what he wanted then this may be a learned behavior pattern for him. To change that, you have to hold your ground. Also stay safe. Do not hesitate to call the police if he shows up angry and threatening or you feel you are in any danger from his behavior.

You do not have to just tolerate someone who does not respect your need to feel safe in our own space and your boundaries. You have choices. You do not have to detach from your feelings- they are your feelings and feelings help inform us of our own boundaries and needs.

[Bnonymous]

Thank you, notwendy.

If I'm honest, I posted this on the conflicted board because I wanted to focus on taking care of me rather than facing what I did wrong in this situation. And I did do some things wrong. I overlooked his needs because I didn't have space for both his and mine at that time. I'm not saying I should have let him come round - I know I shouldn't - but there are other things I should have picked up on and addressed as well as sticking to my boundaries.

For example, one thing he kept saying was "you'll do this at Christmas too - you'll decide you're not in the mood and let me down at Christmas" (people, please note I'm in the UK, so there isn't a holiday here at the moment). He has some truly horrific memories of childhood Christmases (which I won't go into detail about, because he told me in confidence). Because I was so upset and scared, I missed this fear of his and didn't address it. I could have held firm to my boundaries but also reassured him that I was absolutely committed to spending Christmas with him and that I would not let him down about that. I didn't. I just ignored the comments about Christmas.

Basically, I was in a place where I just didn't have room to acknowledge or address his feelings, needs, and worries. And that didn't help.

(Btw, first thing I did when I felt the flashback coming on was go to the shop and buy a pack of cigarettes. *sighs*. But I am still drawing pride and encouragement from the fact that I went a week without one and I intend to try quitting again as soon as the PMS abates.)

ETA: I've just read back this post in a detached way, trying to see it as an outsider would, and have realised that, actually, no, I shouldn't have said those things about Christmas and it's lucky that I didn't. Because I guess I'm actually not 100% committed to spending Christmas with him - I'm only conditionally committed to it. I am only committed to spending Christmas with him IF we are still together then and IF he refrains from abusive behaviour. So it's fortunate that I didn't say that after all.

[Notwendy]

Regardless of what board you post on, nobody should tell you to stay or leave. That is completely up to you. Also, on either board, it remains important to look at our part in conflict- as that is the only part we can change or work on.

One part of looking at ourselves is to consider when we are not emotionally or physically available to pay attention to someone else's needs. While pwBPD ( and also others including ourselves) may tend to take this personally, it isn't personal but a part of  being human. When we are in this state, we need to be able to take care of ourselves and take care of the situation. An acronym for this is HALT - hungry, angry, lonely, tired, and we can add more: triggered, sad, scared, stressed, PMS- or whatever situation makes it necessary to pay attention to our needs.  

I think pwBPD tend to make these times about them, but I also think we share this characteristic- it isn't limited to BPD. They may feel abandoned when we do this and have strong feelings of abandonment. I think it is the tendency of the non to give up our own self care to soothe them, but this isn't our job. It may ease their feelings in the moment if we do step in to soothe them, but in the long run, it isn't good for us or for them. They need to learn to self soothe and so do we- in a non damaging way. Smoking, drinking, doing drugs, overeating, over spending, raging and other activities are self soothing but are also self destructive. Resting, spending time alone, listening to music, exercise are healthy ways of self care. You are trying to substitute smoking for a healthier way and this is commendable. Since you are giving up one of your coping mechanisms, you may feel more irritable at this time. This is normal until you adjust to a healthier way to cope. Your BF may hear you but also feel more abandoned by this- and react. Your job is to stay calm and not step in to "fix" his feelings by giving up your self care. You can still act caring to him, but firm about your boundaries. He has the choice of how he will respond.

Your BF may not like it, but you have the right to self care.  

[Bnonymous]

Thanks notwendy.

I, personally, wouldn't judge someone's coping mechanisms as "healthy" or "not-healthy", in that way. Every situation is unique. I know people who drink as an alternative to taking heroin, people who smoke cannabis as an alternative to drinking, people who drink as an alternative to cutting etc. I think every situation is unique and people do the best they can with the tools they have in the situation they are in.

Giving up smoking was a personal goal, not an attempt at self-improvement or finding healthier coping mechanisms. I appreciate your support, but please don't commend me, as I don't see it (or want to see it) that way - I have learnt from experience that, for me, personally, as an individual, it doesn't help to look at it that way.

ETA: I enjoy smoking. I always have. I smoked from the age of 15 until trying to get pregnant with my daughter in my mid-twenties. I then stayed quit for 15 years and I missed it every single day of that time. I love smoking - it's not just about addiction - it's also a sensual and aesthetic pleasure for me. I always said to myself that, once my daughter was nearly grown up, I would start again. And I did and have been smoking for eighteen months and enjoying every minute of it.

But then I met my boyfriend. And he has no one else. He is so "difficult" that he drives everyone away. I don't want him to lose me to a heart attack or cancer and be left with no one. So I want to quit for him. Not for me. I really feel that I have lived a full life and achieved all of my goals and am ready to go when the reaper calls now (once my daughter is grown up, and she almost is). For myself, I would willingly pay the price of loss of years or decades in order to have the here-and-now pleasure that smoking brings me. And that's my call. But I don't want him to lose me and that is my motivation to quit.

[Notwendy]

OK , I understand.

So let's keep it at- you are trying to make a change and need some self care. Whenever we make any change or need self care, our SO's may become uncomfortable for a number of possible reasons. Taking some time for self care is reasonable, but if it makes our SO's uncomfortable, they may not respond in a supportive manner. Still, if the goal is self care, then we need to maintain that boundary, even if it is difficult.

[Bnonymous]

Thanks for your understanding, notwendy. I hope I didn't come across as rude - I just don't want to receive commendation that isn't deserved. :-)

My taking time for self-care is definitely something we both struggle with. He does appear to feel threatened by it and I guess, my focusing on me feels like I'm abandoning him. I struggle with FOG about it. Like a lot of women (and some men and non-binary people too), I was raised to put everyone else first and it does take a lot of work and conscious effort to remember that I am "allowed" to think of me as well. The practical aphorism "Put your own lifejacket on first" helps me a lot with this.

[Notwendy]

I can relate to this. I grew up with a BPD mom and everyone else in the family had to put her feelings and needs first. It was what felt "normal" to me. She is also verbally and emotionally abusive and I can relate to not feeling safe in my own home- unless I was actively engaged in doing something for her. The saying "if Momma 's not happy, nobody is happy" was certainly true for my childhood home.

I grew up believing I had to be the one to care, make people happy, fix their feelings and ignore my own needs in order to be loved and it is no surprise that I attracted partners who were attracted to this kind of partner.

I also experienced the reaction when we choose to care for our own needs and have boundaries and it is difficult, but to have this, we have to endure our loved one's disappointment and anger, which is hard for people raised to fear this like many people here are.

It takes some self work to do this. Support helps. I hope you will find this kind of support here- regardless of the outcome of your relationship.

[Cat Familiar]

I'm hearing two distinct messages in your posts:

1. you are quitting smoking because you want to increase your longevity so that your boyfriend, who doesn't have anyone else in his life due to his difficult behavior, doesn't lose you to an early death relating to cancer or a heart attack

2. you are not sure that you want to be with someone who doesn't respect your boundaries and tries to terrify you with threats of breaking into your house uninvited

How does holding these two conflicting messages feel? What other criteria do you hold that might also be relevant?

[Bnonymous]

Thank you for your kind post, notwendy.

Hi Cat Familiar,

Before this happened, I was trying to give up smoking so he didn't lose me.

When this happened, I then started again.

Now, I don't know whether I want to be with him or not. In case I continue the relationship, I want to make the second attempt at giving up smoking as close as possible to this one so that it will be easier to achieve than if I get back into the habit again. But if I end the relationship, then I will consider myself free to smoke again. At present, I want to continue the plans to give up smoking as though I will continue the relationship, because I recognise that my mind is not yet made up whether to stay or leave.

It seems most sensible to act as though staying - there's nothing to lose by quitting smoking again for a few weeks while I think this through. Whereas, if I worked on the assumption that I would be leaving, returned to smoking freely, and then ended up staying, I would have to start breaking habits all over again. So the logical thing to do, whilst on the fence, is to proceed with quitting again for the time being. Bit like Pascal's Wager: when not knowing the various possible futures, weigh up the utility and disutility of each course of action in each of them and act in accordance with the one that has the highest possible utility score.

[Bnonymous]

Sorry to double-post, but I don't think I was clear enough before. I think the present tense used in the part about why I want to stop smoking was for convenience and simplicity's sake, rather than representative of emotional conflict. But, thinking about it, yes, it's still the case that I don't want him to end up with no one and that would be hard if I left. But I also know that it wouldn't be right or fair on either of us for that to be a factor in my decision.

Re your question about other criteria, Cat Familiar, I'm going to copy-paste a post of mine from another thread that was an answer to the question "Why do you stay?" This is the other side of my conflict. You've just heard some of why I want to leave, here is some of why I want to stay:

"I stay because I love him, mostly. But also:

I stay because I am willing to ride the lows to get the highs. The lows are pretty low, but the highs are very high. And it balances out as more than worth it.

I stay because of our shared attitudes towards emotion; we are both very comfortable with feelings and talking about feelings and expressing feelings (the good and the bad). I was in an unhappy marriage for fifteen years before I met my boyfriend (marriage ended first, then I met him) where there was very little expression of emotion or room for feeling - I felt like I was suffocating. I feel like I can breathe in my current relationship and that is something I really appreciate and value.

I stay because he shows incredible self-awareness, courage and honesty in the times when he is not triggered or dysregulated.

I stay because, during those times, there is a closeness and intimacy that feels profoundly meaningful. And an incredible level of trust, where we can both let ourselves be vulnerable without fear of judgment or rejection.

I stay because there's a mutual click, a connection, a recognition, a feeling that this is someone who gets it, gets me, like no one else ever has.

I stay because I feel comfortable and at home with him.

I stay because he makes me laugh.

I stay because he intellectually challenges me and makes me look at things from different angles and I find that stimulating.

I stay because the physical side is incredible.

I stay because his enthusiasm for the natural world is contagious and makes me feel like I'm discovering the miracle of it all afresh.

[... .] It works because we have shared passions and because we are both emotional people who appreciate emotion and are comfortable talking about it. It works because we feel comfortable and at home with one another and (when he isn't dysregulated or paranoid) there is a trust between us that is quite beautiful.

Perhaps, in short, it works because we can talk to each other. Whatever the issues or problems or history, we can talk it through with trust, awareness, and respect. It's just a matter of getting the timing right - he can't talk in that way when he is dysregulated or suffering paranoia, but, if I give him space, he will eventually soothe himself and then he will initiate conversations about what happened and what went wrong, addressing the issues with great honesty and courage - he will look at himself and his feelings and history and motivations and try to discover why he does the things he does, and he will share those thought processes aloud. And it blows my mind, makes me go weak at the knees. There are few things more attractive to me than self-awareness and responsibility and (when not dysregulated) he has these in abundance."



I suppose what I'm asking myself now is: has the balance tipped? Does it still feel worth it even after this? And has the trust now been damaged to a point where it might be too difficult to repair it?

[Notwendy]

It sounds like the two of you have some great things between you. Since the two of you are able to talk about your feelings when you are both calm then there is the possibility you can talk about what happened.

It looks like the two of you both got triggered in different ways- and one doesn't have to have BPD to be triggered. I did some work with a counselor on triggers. Yes, someone can trigger me, but who owns the trigger? Them? or me? Me- and if I own the trigger, then I can work on it. This isn't the same as detaching and tolerating. It's actually learning to self soothe when triggered and look at the situation objectively.

I would say that your BF probably knew better but when you stated your need to be alone, he took that as rejection and it triggered him. Yes, he acted like a jerk about it, and that triggered you. I would say he should not have done what he did, but the trigger part is something you can work on. This doesn't mean tolerating abuse, but being able to self soothe better when triggered. That takes practice but it is so worth it. The great thing about working on the triggers is that you get to keep the skills you gain, and they are yours for any relationship. It seems you are already learning to do this with boundaries and self care. When both of you are calmer you two may be able to talk about this and see where things go.

[Bnonymous]

Thanks notwendy. You are absolutely right about all of that.

And, yes, my last post helped me clear up my feelings a lot, and that's what I was thinking too: I'll wait to see what comes out of the next opportunity for a proper conversation about it, but, for now, I am thinking that (awful as it was) there is too much here to throw away over it. I'll see how it goes when we talk.

I think we're all lifelong works in progress. I have come so far in the last decade or so, but the journey is far from over - there are still things I can do re triggers and boundaries. I was just thinking about this and decided that one way for me (not necessarily everyone) to think about boundaries is as the promises I make to my inner child that adult me will always keep her safe now. Realising that, I see their importance even more. I don't think I would react the same way if it happens again - I would be prepared emotionally and resolved to call the police if I had to - I think that knowledge will stop the child in me from waking up and taking over. :-)

[once removed]

If I'm honest, I posted this on the conflicted board because I wanted to focus on taking care of me rather than facing what I did wrong in this situation.

at the end of the day, there arent a lot of good, skillful ways to deal with a person (loved one or otherwise) who is threatening to break into your home and taunting you about being outside/around the corner.

have the two of you spoken since?

[Radcliff]

Bnonymous, I'm sorry you had a PTSD trigger hit so hard.  I have had my triggers hit so hard it was incapacitating, and it is painful and terrifying.  I can't see that you did anything wrong at all.  Setting a hard boundary was exactly what you needed to do.  And as for whether you could have been softer with him, you need to be free to be vulnerable and under the weather sometimes.

I share once removed's question -- have you talked with him since the incident?  Have you talked about the incident?

RC

[Bnonymous]

Thanks, onceremoved and Radcliff.

No, we've not spoken yet. The usual pattern is that, after any incident of any kind of conflict or his acting out, I am painted black for a while and he doesn't want to talk to me. This phase could last anything between a few days and a couple of weeks. Then there are two ways he comes out of it: either he spontaneously phones me in tears crying about how awful he is and begging me not to hate him or he starts with a "how are you?" text and gradually thaws. The mature conversations come later, a couple of days or weeks after he first makes contact.

I try to discourage the tearful, begging, self-flagellating approach, because I don't think it's good for him at all. Firstly, it's just a total polar reversal of the him-angelic/me-demonic picture, instead of a healthier balance. Secondly, it doesn't do his self-esteem any good, makes him feel small and is likely to lead to resentment because of that.

I try to emphasise responsibility over guilt and try to encourage him to substitute the latter with the former. Guilt isn't really the problem - it's actually shame that is the problem, but, because he can't feel one without the other, I simplify and speak of "guilt" when I mean "shame," because that is his language for it. But semantics aside... .I try to remind him that there is a healthy mean between "wasn't my fault - I did nothing wrong" and "I'm bad, I've always been bad; you must hate me; please don't hate me". I say responsibility is not about blame; it is about having power and control over our actions and the ability to influence the world. I tell him responsibility is linked with agency and that agency helps us to feel empowered and safe.

I read a wonderful phrase by onceremoved on another thread: 'what defines responsibility to me is to go from "i am the problem" to "i am the solution".'

I think this is brilliant and captures succinctly and accurately what I tend to take ten minutes waffling around incoherently to try and express. It so struck me that I have written it down and will use this to explain what I mean from now on.

But, yeah, the conversations mentioned in my "why I stay?" answers happen later. And these are the ones where he does walk the right line, where he takes responsibility without letting that crush him. I love to see him like that.

Thinking about it, I reckon the tearful phonecalls are happening less and the moves into responsibility are happening quicker... .It might be wishful thinking though!

What I do know though is that the responsibility-taking, open and honest conversations have been happening reliably for quite a while now, and I actually trust that they will this time too - that's a good feeling.

[Radcliff]

Bnonymous, thanks so much for that update.  You've got a healthy approach to all of this, and it's nice to hear that you're perceiving progress over time.  Success with a pwBPD requires both compassion and boundaries.  Some of us get the compassion part right, but not the boundaries part.  I believe that when we fail to have boundaries, we're depriving the pwBPD of the experience of learning from the consequences of their actions.  It sounds like you're avoiding this trap, and that's both protective for you, and increases the likelihood of a good outcome for the relationship.

Please keep us posted!

RC

[Bnonymous]

Thanks, Radcliff.

Unfortunately, things seem to be getting worse and I am definitely conflicted now. I don't want to walk away from all the good aspects of the relationship, but... .The bad ones are starting to feel worse now.

He reached out a few days ago with insignificant texts, then he called me and we talked. It wasn't the mature conversation yet, but it seemed to be heading there. It was 99% focused on his feelings, with very little space for mine, but I was prepared to give it time and was expecting the two-way conversation to happen face-to-face.

So I texted "If you want to come up this weekend, I'd like to see you. But, after that, I'm going to need at least a week to make the second attempt at giving up smoking". Well, through the BPD abandonment lens, all he saw was "I won't want to see you for a week" and it started him off again.

I then got a barrage of seriously abusive texts, to the point where I had to say "If you continue to send abusive texts, I will have to block your number". He did and I followed through and blocked him.

To me, this is a big thing and a suggestion that the relationship is all but over. As I see it, people in relationships do not block each other's numbers; people in relationships are there for each other and welcome each other's contact; they don't block one another. It seems like a nail in the coffin of the relationship, a closing down of both availability and trust. I have never done this before and I didn't do it lightly.

I didn't disappear out of reach altogether - I have a landline he can call me on (he just can't send texts to it, so can't do the written abuse thing). He did so yesterday. And it was pure gaslighting. He insisted he hadn't meant any offence and I had taken his comments the wrong way etc. Really insisted on it. Well... .I don't particularly want to post the texts, but there was no room for doubt that they were abusive, no room whatsoever. Unlike him, I very much see things in shades of grey and ambiguity and as matters of interpretation etc, but these texts simply could not be seen in that light. They were unambiguously and seriously abusive.

The gaslighting was too much. I ended up losing it a bit and saying "I cannot sit here listening to this and allowing myself to be gaslighted. I cannot. Sorry" and hanging up.

This is looking serious now. Part of me thinks to keep the faith and 1/ remember all the good and the progress we have made, and 2/ remember that the proper two-way productive conversations always come and just wait for them. But the rest of me thinks we may have reached a point of no return and that it might be better to accept defeat and make a start on the grieving process sooner rather than later.

[Notwendy]

Bnonymous- the direction you wish to take your relationship is completely up to you. You have the choice- stay with this or leave. From what I have seen, few relationships are all good or all bad, as people don't tend to be all good or all bad. There are good aspects of your relationship but the decision to stay or leave isn't based on only the good aspects but the relationship as a whole. Either decision, to stay or to leave, is not an easy one- but it is one you can make based on your values.

People can have different deal breakers in a relationship and that doesn't make them wrong. It's about choosing what you value in a relationship. It doesn't involve any judgement of you. For some people, religion may be a deal breaker and others may not care about that. Other deal breakers could be infidelity, verbal abuse, addiction, or any number of aspects that a person does not tolerate in a relationship.

You have been clear about the boundary you need- you want to quit smoking and don't want to be around a person who smokes at the moment. You don't want to receive verbally abusive messages. Your part here is to hold your boundaries.

Your BF has choices too. He can respect your boundaries, or not. He can decide if he is invested in the relationship enough to handle a week away from you, or not. In any relationship- both people can choose their actions and if they want to stay or leave. This can be a scary thing to face when setting boundaries because his response is unknown. Your part in this is to focus on you- your feelings, settling yourself, your boundaries and the task of quitting smoking and deciding what you want to do about the relationship. His part is up to him.

[Bnonymous]

Thanks, notwendy.

I don't have any red lines for a partner's behaviour that would make me leave the relationship (well, extreme things like murder or arson, perhaps, but nothing in the realms of probability).

I do have boundaries, but these are separate to whether or not I stay in the relationship. I can enforce my boundary about my space by calling the police if he turns up when he has been asked not to. I can enforce my boundary about abusive texts by blocking his number. Just as examples. I don't feel that I have any boundaries that would require me to leave the relationship to enforce them.

The question of whether or not to stay is a question of whether or not the relationship is, overall, good, bad, or neutral for my mental health. This is the question that I am now reevaluating

(I am as close to certain as it's possible to be that he wouldn't choose to end the relationship under any circumstances, so I never worry about that possibility when setting boundaries. Also, cold as it might sound, I'm not afraid of being left - some of the happiest years of my life were spent alone, and I know can not only survive, but actively thrive out of the relationship. Question is: can I do so *in* it?)

[Bnonymous]

I suppose another question I am asking myself is regarding whether I can live by my values in this relationship. I am not comfortable with blocking a partner's number or hanging up on a partner - this is not the way I want to behave. So, although I can enforce my boundaries without leaving the relationship, the things I am having to do to enforce them are things I'm not comfortable with doing, things that are (at least to some extent) against my values.

So this is another reason why I may need to leave. It wouldn't be good for my mental health to stay in a relationship where I feel I need to act against my instincts and my values in order to enforce/defend my boundaries. But this is still about me and my behaviour and values, not him and his. I very much embrace the idea that I am only responsible for my side of things - that is both intuitive and logical to me.

For me, the most important thing is living by my values. And it tends to make me ill when I find myself in rock-and-hard-place situations where there is no way to do that. E.g. It is a value/boundary "I will not allow myself to be subjected to abusive texts" and it is a value/boundary "I will not block my partner's number" - so, unless I walk away altogether, I'm going to have a hard time looking in the mirror whatever I do, because there will be "moral residue" either way. Hence, I am thinking that I might have to walk away in order to live by my values. Unless I can figure out ways of enforcing boundaries that don't involve sacrificing other boundaries... .

[Notwendy]

The question of whether or not to stay is a question of whether or not the relationship is, overall, good, bad, or neutral for my mental health. This is the question that I am now reevaluating



This is a very important boundary- protecting your mental health is a boundary. How to do this in or out of a relationship is an important consideration. We are all different and so are our relationships- our own mental health needs are unique. Now you are considering what is the best thing to do for you.

[Cat Familiar]

His behavior of attempting to trample on your boundaries with abusive texts and gaslighting phone calls have created a circumstance where you've needed to block him, then hang up, which are behaviors that you don't feel are congruent with how you want to behave with a romantic partner. What seemingly triggered this recent outburst from him was your request for space after a planned weekend visit.

Having been in a LDR with a pwBPD myself, I'm wondering how often the two of you have spent time together. My observation based upon my own experience is that a pwBPD can present very well when seen infrequently. However, when spending more time together, the less-than-desirable BPD behaviors tend to manifest more often. Should you remain in this relationship, what level of frequency would you be seeing each other?

[Bnonymous]

Hi Cat Familiar,

We usually spend three nights per week together at my home (together all the time from the evening he arrives until the morning he goes back). It's frequently more than that - often I'll stay one night at his in addition to his three nights at mine. That's the usual pattern (has been for at least the last 18 months). So we're pretty much part-time living together.

Occasionally he has reasons to need to skip a week (that's happened maybe three times this year - I've been perfectly relaxed about it on each occasion). Occasionally I have reasons to need to skip a week too - that happens even less. And, well, we've seen what happens when it does... .

[Cat Familiar]

We know reciprocity is not a strong suite of a pwBPD. And that especially goes for anything that triggers their abandonment issues. How might you see this playing out in the future?

[once removed]

For me, the most important thing is living by my values. And it tends to make me ill when I find myself in rock-and-hard-place situations where there is no way to do that. E.g. It is a value/boundary "I will not allow myself to be subjected to abusive texts" and it is a value/boundary "I will not block my partner's number" - so, unless I walk away altogether, I'm going to have a hard time looking in the mirror whatever I do, because there will be "moral residue" either way.

if you choose to end the relationship, dont approach it in a way that isnt true to your values.

why? because if you do, at worst, it will complicate things, and at best, youll kick yourself, and no one needs that when theyre going through a breakup.

this (blocking) is something that can be undone either way. it happens, but its not something you would want to repeat, doing it, undoing it.

Unless I can figure out ways of enforcing boundaries that don't involve sacrificing other boundaries... .

you dont have to share the texts here, but it would help to have a better impression of what happened, what was said, and has anything like it happened before.

[Bnonymous]

Hi onceremoved,

I wouldn't end the relationship in a way that wasn't true to my values; I would end it because I couldn't find a way to stay in it that is true to my values. If I stayed in the relationship, how could I enforce the "I will not be subjected to abusive texts" boundary without blocking? I can't see any other way to stay in the relationship and yet defend that boundary. Which is why I want to end it.

I really don't want to talk about the abusive texts. It's not minor stuff - it's heavy duty very personal abuse. It's not just swearing or insults (I'm comfortable with swearing and insults are water off a duck's back to me). It's very targeted, very abusive stuff.

For example, he knows that I was raped when I was a teenager by a friend's father. He will say things like "I think it's disgusting that you went with a 60 year old man - your parents must have been so ashamed of you - if my kid acted like that, I'd kick her out for bringing shame on the family" or "I'd better be careful sleeping with you, cos you've got a history of crying rape when men don't come back for seconds".

See? No ambiguity whatsoever.

It's been going on for a long time. Usually my response is to ignore the abuse. Sometimes I'll say things like "You know that it's against your values to say things like this. And it hurts people to act against their values. This is causing you pain and is cruel to both of us, please stop". Or "This is abuse. And I know that is not who you want to be." Or "The only person you are hurting is yourself by acting in ways that leave you feeling small and ashamed. You're trapped in a vicious cycle and only you can break yourself free from it".

But, most often, I ignore it.

The reason I didn't want to tell the board is because I can imagine people imposing every stereotype under the sun "She confuses abuse with love," "She thinks she doesn't deserve better," "She is so scared of being alone, she'll tolerate anything" etc etc. And none of that applies here - it really doesn't.

I am not scared of being alone. I don't for one minute think such behaviour is love - it isn't - it's abuse, plain and simple. I am well aware that I deserve better.

But, contrary to appearances, it's not about me. It's really not. And I recognise that, so it doesn't affect me - I know who I am, I know what my truth is, and my sense of self and my self-esteem are rock solid - this kind of abuse can't shake them.

It's about him. It's about serious mental illness and extreme trauma. He doesn't say these things because there is something wrong with me - he says them because there is something wrong with him.

It isn't a deal breaker for me. I expect to be judged for that. I expect people to think it should be a deal breaker, but it isn't.

But, after being on these boards a few weeks, I started to think that maybe I should take steps to show him that this is unacceptable (instead of just telling him that). And that's why I think temporarily blocking when he does this might be the way to go. But, yeah, I don't want to keep doing that. Because I'm not comfortable with it. So... .Staying would mean either 1/ being untrue to my values by blocking when he gets abusive by texts, or 2/ finding a different way to handle the abusive texts.

Any suggestions for a different way to handle it would be most welcome - I really can't think of any.

(I call "I will not be subjected to abusive texts" a boundary, but, to be honest, I'm not sure that it actually is an authentic boundary of mine - I guess I'm just thinking that it *should* be, that I would help him more if I made it into one... .Maybe this is what is causing my confusion, that I am trying to adopt a boundary - "I will not be subjected to abusive texts" - that doesn't feel authentic to me?)

[Bnonymous]

This is very difficult to explain... .Trying to summarise... .

1. The abuse itself doesn't particularly bother me, because I know it's coming from the extreme trauma he has suffered in his life. It doesn't feel personal. It doesn't get me down or make me doubt myself. It doesn't upset my inner peace.

2. I fear that, by not taking steps to prevent it from happening, I am permitting him to act in unhealthy ways and teaching him that it's acceptable (even though I tell him that it isn't). I feel a great deal of social/media pressure to have a boundary against abusive behaviour (though I don't think that I actually *do* have such a boundary - I just feel like I'm "supposed to").

3. The only way I can think of to address the above is to temporarily block his texts when he gets abusive (he doesn't say things like this on the phone or face-to-face, only by text message).

But

4. I am not comfortable with blocking him - that does go against my values.

So

5. I feel that the only way to act truly to both my own values (not blocking) and the value society insists on (don't stand for abusive behaviour) is to end the relationship.

Maybe I should just have the moral courage to act authentically and not try to manufacture boundaries that I don't really have? If *I* am not disturbed by the abusive texts, maybe I shouldn't feel that I *have to* make a boundary against them?

[Notwendy]

Bnonymous- I get the sense that you feel influenced to set a boundary on your BF's verbal abuse. IMHO, this is your relationship- you are the one who can decide if the relationship works according to your own values- whatever they are. If what your BF says to you is not an issue for you, then it is entirely your right to decide that.

People come to this board mostly because they have difficulty in their relationships and hopefully gain support for how to deal with that. But what is a difficulty for one person may not be one for someone else.

The main boundary I see you concerned about was needing some time to yourself to quit smoking and that you felt distressed when he said things like "I am coming over" when you had asked him not to. The boundary of time to yourself is important to you.

If you don't feel comfortable blocking him, then don't block him. I hope you feel encouraged to be true to yourself here on these boards and with him and others.

[Bnonymous]

Thank you, notwendy! That's a lovely, kind, non-judgmental response and I really appreciate it. 

Yes, that's it. I think I am feeling like I should be a better non. I think I am feeling like I can't be a "good" non (in the lights of the literature I'm reading) and be true to my values at the same time. And it's messing with my head a bit.

I do want to be clear though that, obviously, I don't think abusive behaviour is ever acceptable - it's against my values in the sense that it is not in accordance with my conscience and thus not something I would ever engage in (as I think it's wrong).

But being on the receiving end is a different matter altogether. I don't want to hold myself responsible for what he does in that sense. I completely understand that other people might also have a boundary that they won't allow themselves to be on the receiving end of such abuse, but I don't have that boundary.

The reason I don't is that such abuse doesn't "work" on me - it doesn't make me ill or hurt or self-doubting etc. Ten years ago, I would have needed such a boundary because I would not have been psychologically strong enough to have mentally defended myself from it (i.e. it would have got under my skin and into my head and been very damaging to my sense of self) but, nowadays, I kind of take it like a therapist would; it doesn't get in, it doesn't affect my sense of self or disturb my serenity.

You are correct that having my need for time to myself respected IS an authentic boundary of mine. It IS important for my mental health that I feel in control of my own space and who comes into my home and when. The way he behaved about that DID affect me emotionally. I guess my boundaries regarding how I will allow myself to be treated reflect the single value/boundary of "I will not allow my mental health to be compromised" (as you observed, notwendy). If I feel that a behaviour of his is adversely affecting my mental health, then it's a problem for me; if it isn't, then it isn't.

Oh, and the gaslighting was a genuine problem and "I will not be gaslighted" is a genuine boundary. Usually he admits when he has been abusive. This time he tried to convince me that I'd completely taken him wrong and he hadn't meant to cause offence - I had much more of a problem with *that* than I did with the abusive texts themselves.

(Sorry for long posts - I am mostly trying to walk round a few things and get them clearer in my own head.)