Round two, she's triggered by a friendship of mine

[PurpleFlower]

Hello all, I took a little break from this website largely due to the break in my relationship. My previous post can be found here:https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=327928.msg12989773#msg12989773. The gist of it is that it ended with my breaking it off after her pushing extremely hard and attacking my insecurities. After two weeks I reached out, and for a little while we communicated only by email. After the initial breakup her parents became more supportive of her getting help, and she has since gone on medication. Things were a lot better the second time around, I listened more, she made more of an effort to be understanding and bring her emotions under control, and in general things were good. Less blow ups, and in general, more love. She made more of an effort to be supportive, and started to do a lot more things that she felt she had been lacking in doing (complimenting me, talking things out, taking control back when things got out of control.)

Things melted down really badly this past week, and I know I'm personally having trouble keeping it together right now.

I have a friend, who I'll call F. I've known F for a long time, almost a decade, and yes, she is a woman. I believe I mentioned her in my original post, but she was invited to my graduation a while back, where SO was also invited. This alone led to some choice encounters ("why do you need her? why did you invite her? I'm not enough?") but we got through it.

Things got complicated this summer because F confided in me that she cheated on her boyfriend with her roommate. I listened, and gave her some advice, but indicated that cheating wasn't really ok. Frankly, I didn't see this as being an issue, and I felt the matter was laid to rest. On thanksgiving, SO was on facebook and was wondering why I still liked F's pictures.

Here's the complicating factor. SO was cheated on by her previous boyfriend, and most of her borderline tendencies only started to arise after she was cheated on. Because of this she believes it to be an instigating event in her current mental illness. She asked if I still talk to F and I said yes, but that I wasn't happy with her right now because she cheated on her boyfriend. I got a huge tirade of extreme vitirol I won't repeat here. Suffice to say words were dropped (words beginning with 'w', 's' and 'r' as well as direct attacks on me, claiming I want to sleep with F and various 'r' words related to the 'children' we would have.) She then begged for me to help her because she was sick and throwing up. I told her I'd talk to her as a friend until she went to sleep. We talked briefly and then... .total radio silence.

I honestly felt blindsided. I had to coax out of her via email (because I blocked her phone number when the vitriol started. This was something we agreed on when we started the relationship again, that if it ever happened one of us would block the other person and we'd try to take a step back and reevaluate before talking again, kind of a time out thing) exactly why she stopped talking. She eventually, finally, only on sunday, revealed that even thinking about me being friends with someone who cheated triggers her and makes her vomit.

The problem is, she's aware of how absurd it is to ask me to stop being friends with her. She said explicitly that it wouldn't be ok for her to make me choose between the two of them. And I agreed. It's not fair. But at the same time I told her it felt like she was, if not explicitly, implicitly making me choose by not talking to me and 'removing herself from a triggering situation.' She's said she no longer feels safe being in a relationship with me because I'm friends with a cheater.

I honestly don't even know how to approach this. We've been talking via email, and I was able to see her yesterday and we had what I thought was a productive conversation in person where I laid out why I'm displeased with F, how I don't condone cheating, etc. How I really didn't feel comfortable after the things that SO said. And it felt like we really were working towards moving forward.

Thursday morning she had an unrelated meltdown, and she was so scared by it she said that she was finding a therapist no matter what. She stopped seeing her last one because he didn't do DBT and she felt it wasn't helpful, but she's been stalling on finding a new one. She told me yesterday that her parents said they'd pay for an out of network DBT therapist since non are in network and I said I was happy for her and glad she was looking for treatment.

My problem is this morning, where she said she can't keep pretending things are normal and if she "needs to move out of the way so that F can be in my life I should let her know." I'm struggling with how to approach this using SET because I do feel it's unfair what she's making me do, because of a few other things in her life.

SO still likes and follows her ex-boyfriends Instagram, and I have never seen her get triggered when his name or even his actions in cheating on her are brought up. In fact, she seems to barely register it. Further, one of her friends, the head of a sports team she's on (E) has been trying constantly to get her to sleep with her even going so far as to say "PurpleFlower won't have to know." This too, doesn't trigger her. Although to her credit it does make her uncomfortable and she has started to stop talking to E because she feels uncomfortable with it, especially when E ignore her "no, I don't see you that way."

Because of this, I'm starting to feel like it's more than just the cheating. I feel like it's more than just "you're friends with a cheater." I honestly don't know how to talk to her about this, and this morning I asked her about if it's really about the cheating, and also told her that I feel like she's implicitly making me choose. I'm starting to feel like I'm really bad at this, and I'm reaching out for help because I don't want this to be what breaks us apart. I don't know how to approach telling her, look F is a friend and I want to keep her in my life, but really I barely talk to her right now, I haven't seen her since June, and like, I've never had any interest in her beyond the friendship we have. But the way SO is acting, it seems like if I say that she's going to leave, as she's said multiple times she has to "take care of herself" and "avoid situations that are triggering to her" even going so far as to berate me for "keeping someone in your [my] life that triggers me so much."

I'm sorry this got so long, but there was a lot of background, and I needed to get it off my chest. I've been trying to stop reacting so harshly, but sometimes when she starts on this vitriol like she did on Thursday (she had a repeat performance via email yesterday morning when I indicated that yes, F will be in my life) I get extremely stressed and anxious and it becomes difficult to stay calm. I've made some mistakes in terms of things I've said, but I really want this to pass becauseI don't feel like it's fair for her to ask me to choose. I've tried to explain how being cheated on hurts and I understand why she's hurt when cheating is brought up, but that F has no bearing on SO's life, nor on my personal beliefs that cheating is super not ok. But alas, it's all for naught. Thanks for listening, friends. I appreciate it.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Radcliff]

It sounds like this situation has been stressful and exhausting, but the good news is that you can make it a lot better, and you don't even have to do anything complicated -- just stop doing some things that are making things worse.

First, stop talking about cheating.  It sounds like you might be falling to the temptation to “justify, argue, defend, or explain” (JADE).  She's emotional and not rational about this.  She's "overreacting" by the standard you or I might apply, but no amount of talking will convince her of that.  It will just invalidate her feelings and inflame the situation.

Here's how you stop talking about cheating -- stop talking about your friend who cheated.  It sounds like she's not even a major friend.  Tell your SO once that your friend is not that close, and you only talked to her X (however many) times in the last three months, and you don't expect to be talking to her any more than that.  Say your friendship with her has nothing to do with your relationship with your SO.  If she ever brings it up again, refer her back to the original conversation, and refuse to discuss it.  Your refusal needs to be calm and firm, and you can't even get sucked into discussing it a little, otherwise she'll keep pushing.  Even if you've read it before, review this page on setting boundaries.

Regarding her vitriol, boundaries come in there, too.  You need to stop listening to it.  Disengage calmly and stay away from stimuli that stress you out.  With practice, good boundaries get easier to implement, and greatly reduce your stress (poorly implemented boundaries or ones implemented without confidence increase your stress).  You could implement a boundary against vitriol by blocking her, but I would not suggest that you do an indefinite block and also do not try to recover the relationship via e-mail, which is a terrible tool for that (it takes massive energy and makes things worse). 

An indefinite block is punitive and harmful to the relationship.  Instead, do a temporary block, and say how long it is for.  You don't even have to call it a block, just say something like, "I need to step away from my phone for 3 hours for some cool down time, I'll check in with you at 5pm."  Don't try to get her to agree, and don't argue about it later, even if she is angry with you.  Just do it.  Then check in with her when you say you will.  My BPDw used to repeatedly call me at work in the middle of the day with vitriol, when I needed to concentrate on work.  The strategy that worked for me was to block her until the end of the work day so I could focus on work (having something else you need to do also helps it seem less punitive, and may make it easier for you to implement the boundary).

OK, in summary, stop talking about cheating, stop talking about your friend, and implement boundaries against vitriol.  Do those changes sound like things that might work for you?

RC

[PurpleFlower]

Radcliff - Thank you for your kind words.

In regards to her being a major friend, I'd say she's more than a minor friend, but not a major friend and she is the only person of the opposite sex I'd consider a friend besides my SO.

I know that an indefinite block is harmful, and for that reason when I or she blocks it's always "I'm going to block you for an hour until we can calm down." This block is unnaturally long, largely because I told her I was going to unblock her but she had a minor panic and told me not to just yet because she was scared of what she might say or do. Trust me, email is the last way I want to communicate. Unfortunately she has me blocked everywhere else.

I think I am definitely falling into the JADE trap. I've been prone to doing that in the past, and I've tried to move past it but it's really hard! I appreciate your advice on talking about it once and then calmly and firmly referring back to it and refusing to discuss it further. I have already told her that I talk to F maybe once a month at most, and I've only seen her every 6 months at most. I'm also never the one to bring up cheating, but I do fall prey to talking about it if she brings it up.

It's hard, though, not to get sucked in if she starts talking about how she's going to isolate herself from me if I keep being F's friend, etc. How we should break up if I'm keeping F in my life. These kind of responses scare me, I suppose, because what if she goes through with it? But I think I need to realize that if she does then it's her choice and not on me. I realize that in many ways I'm making it worse. It sounds like my bad or weak boundaries have caused a lot of this.

Let me walk through this. If she brings up F again or cheating, I will explain that F is not a major friend, that our friendship has no bearing on our relationship, that I do not talk to her often and see her often. If she presses I calmly and firmly indicate that we've already discussed this.

Might I ask if you have any advice as to how to come across calmly in text? Sometimes when I think I am being calm and firm she mistakes it for anger, which she claims is just her low self esteem, but maybe it's on me? I would normally say something like 'SO, we've already discussed this before.' Or something like that.

[Beneck]

Might I ask if you have any advice as to how to come across calmly in text? Sometimes when I think I am being calm and firm she mistakes it for anger, which she claims is just her low self esteem, but maybe it's on me? I would normally say something like 'SO, we've already discussed this before.' Or something like that.

Hey!

How about:

1) Use more emojis, such as

2) Try validating. For instance: "SO, I understand that you are upset about x and y, but we've already discussed this before"

Just my 2 cents.

Also eagerly waiting for the suggestions of others!

[once removed]

i had a similar situation.

this involved, indeed, a very minor friend. an internet friend, whom ill never meet, totally non flirtatious. but she messaged me late at night while my ex and i were in bed. hell broke loose. even days later, when things calmed down my ex was pushy about me ending the friendship. i refused, for a variety of reasons.

no right or wrong answer here: is this a hill youre prepared to die on?

[Radcliff]

Yes, it's super hard not to get sucked in.  When we try to implement boundaries, our pwBPD will push back, and they'll raise the stakes until they get us to react.  Very often, they'll use leaving the relationship or isolating us from them as a weapon.  They are reacting out of fear, and are using whatever works.

It's very common for us to be afraid of losing our pwBPD when we start to implement boundaries.  But if you're studying boundaries, getting support here, implement a boundary with compassion and firmness, and she leaves because you won't disengage from a once-a-month friend, what will have happened is that you will have made an appropriate stand for a healthy relationship and she will have opted out, essentially saying, "I'm not prepared to have a healthy relationship." 

If she brings up the friend again, consider telling her what we've talked about using the S.E.T. (Support, Empathy, Truth) format.  Think about the difference between that and JADE.  She very likely won't come to see it the same as you in the moment -- your job is to say your truth in a way that is as low-conflict as possible.

As far as how to respond in text, I would suggest that you work very hard to not discuss emotional issues over text.  Really.  It will take a huge amount of energy and likely be upsetting to both of you; it's just not the right medium.  Work at empathetic deflections, like "I can tell this is really important to you.  I want to think about what you've said, and talk about when we are together."

One last thing -- you said that she asked you to keep blocking her because she was scared about what she might say.  Whose responsibility is it to keep her from saying bad things?  Her asking you to block her to protect you, and you blocking her to protect you as a boundary when she does something may seem pretty similar, but they are different in a fundamental way.  Can you explain the difference?

RC

[PurpleFlower]

Thanks Radcliffe, I appreciate it.

So uh I think I made things way worse. I asked her not to read my messages about calling it a choice but she did anyway, and she's been really cruel since then. Saying she can't believe I put them on the same level like that. Last night was bad because I tried to explain to her that I wouldn't be talking to or seeing F because, well, I don't, but also because it triggers SO and she apparently took that to mean that I would keep doing it if SO wasn't around. Which is patently false, I see this friend once, maybe twice a year, and we don't talk in between that.

I've been called abusive. Manipulative. A... .le. Liar. I was told multiple times to "enjoy f... .g F" (although much more colorful). I've been told I never used to be this way. That all I do is hurt her. I told her I was blocking her until 9 (two hours, less actually) so we could calm down and then talk and she called me abusive, mean, f... .d up.

Then at the end of it all she asked if we could get married. Right now. And I said that one day maybe, but right now I didn't feel comfortable, and she took that to mean I was rejecting her. I was told again that I f... .F. That I sleep with her, that I probably have STDs. This is patently absurd, the only person I've ever slept with is SO and she knows this.

I tried to use SET, to explain that I understand she's upset and that I would like to talk about this in person but I get shut down. She keeps calling me abusive, and that she doesn't want to see me again.

I feel depressed. I'm convinced I'm abusive, I'm convinced this is all my fault. This morning I didn't even want to get out of bed which has never happened to me. I don't even want to continue with the day I just want it all to stop. And I told her, in a disregulated state myself, that right now I hate her, what she's saying and doing. That I hate what this relationship has become. That I hate myself. That I hate what I've done. That she's not acting like the SO I fell in love with. And yeah, that probably made it worse, but I held out and was patient for so long I just snapped I guess. I tried multiple times to tell her that I understood she was upset, but that I've already explained everything about F and that if we want to talk more about it we should talk in person. And then eventually she'd just blow up anyway because I "wasn't denying that I would see her." While telling her that I had already talked about it, I tried to set up a time for us to meet in person tomorrow so we could talk more in person but she just ignored my texts about it.

We had a bit of a conversation on Wednesday in person and things seemed to be improving, Thursday we talked briefly again about it in person, but she started to get deregulated because today I wouldn't be able to see her since I'm spending time with my family and that's what started the downward spiral. I hate myself.

Guys I made it so much worse and it's all my fault. I didn't set boundaries and I didn't use SET and it's all my fault. I just want everything to stop.

[once removed]

Strength: It takes a great deal of strength and emotional stability to be in a BP relationship and not be emotionally injured by it.  A person in a weak emotional state, who feels wounded/abused, or depressed is likely to be consumed by the relationship, confused by the intense rages and idealization, and finding their self worth in decline.  If you chose this path, you've got to be very strong and very balanced.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/what-does-it-take-be-relationship

i know that a lot of this is very new, and that none of it is easy.

in conflict like this, we cant make things better until we learn to not make them worse. the first step in that regard, is Stopping the Bleeding.

youre both in a high emotional state at the moment... .shes lashing out out of hurt, and youre defending yourself, explaining (JADE), and all of this, right now, is gasoline on a fire.

we have a 3 minute video lesson on ending conflict... .can you give it a watch and let us know what you think: https://bpdfamily.com/content/ending-conflict
 

[PurpleFlower]

Thank you once removed, I appreciate the advice. I have read the page you linked, and am thankful that I'll be seeing my therapist again next week, which should help me regain some of my own emotional strength which has been sapped in the past few days. I realize that my weakness right now is a great detriment and I'm hurting the relationship.

Right now I feel like things are irreparably bad, things she's said, things I've said in response lashing out, it's not pretty. I sent her an email talking about how I think we need to calm down, how I'll be looking at some resources and going to therapy since I feel like I've been dropping the ball on my end.

It would be helpful for me if we could walk through an example of trying not to JADE and how to reduce a conflict, using an example from last night, if somebody could oblige me with any advice on how I responded and how I could have responded better.

She says "what happens now" and we talk a bit how I think maybe we should take a break/break up until we are both feeling better, and she responds "I would like to get married." I asked, "Right now?" and she said "yes."

My verbatim response was
"I would feel more comfortable if you finished the school year first. [context: I graduated last June, she is a year below me and graduates next June]
I’ve been enough of a distraction from your studies already.
Also given how I feel about myself, my current emotional state, I do not think it would be a healthy marriage.
I would like to get married some day. But I feel like that’s a discussion I would like to have in person."

She fired back instantly with
"then let’s take a break and come back to me when you want me.
wow.
you really did just reject me.
holy s... t.
seriously Purple Flower
you don’t f... .g want me"

I got pretty riled up at this response, and told her I felt disrespected. I think maybe my first response should have been better. Instead of saying the marriage wouldn't be healthy, I could have talked more about how I wanted to work on us. A little bit later I indicated that I felt like she was trying to use marriage to fix us, which maybe I should have included earlier. I think I just failed at expressing my feelings, that we're not in a position to get married right now (for more reasons beyond just the unhealthy cycle we were/are in), and that while it is something I would like for the future, I would like to discuss it more in person (I tried to do this, because emotions are hard over text, as Radcliffe pointed out.) I tried very hard to use 'I' statements, to talk about how I feel. I would like some advice on how I responded though, and how maybe I could have diffused the situation quicker or better. It would be greatly appreciated, if not maybe for now, perhaps for the future.

[once removed]

the first thing that jumps out at me is that proposing marriage is a really wild and impulsive swing... .which i suppose is pretty characteristic of BPD traits, though not unique to them... .i once did the same thing myself.

shes setting you up to reject her when she does that. dont shut it down, but why respond as if its a serious and thought through proposal? see it for what it is, and then its easier to work with.

I sent her an email talking about how I think we need to calm down, how I'll be looking at some resources and going to therapy since I feel like I've been dropping the ball on my end.

good move to stop the bleeding. a healthy, communicated time out to take some space for yourself is always preferable to heated/escalating engagement.

It would be helpful for me if we could walk through an example of trying not to JADE

learning not to JADE is a great stop the bleeding tool. JADE drives circular arguments, or puts a person on the defensive, or it validates the invalid, or it escalates conflict. learning to let go of the impulse (wont be easy) will give you a lot of emotional space.

My verbatim response was
"I would feel more comfortable if you finished the school year first. [context: I graduated last June, she is a year below me and graduates next June]
I’ve been enough of a distraction from your studies already.
Also given how I feel about myself, my current emotional state, I do not think it would be a healthy marriage.
I would like to get married some day. But I feel like that’s a discussion I would like to have in person."

she proposed something irrational and desperate, very much in the moment, telegraphed "save me". you responded with a list of thought out reasons why its a bad idea. there is no win in that. all a person in that desperate state will here is "i dont want to be with you."

She fired back instantly with
"then let’s take a break and come back to me when you want me.
wow.
you really did just reject me.
holy s... t.
seriously Purple Flower
you don’t f... .g want me"

you will learn to see this coming from miles away.

I got pretty riled up at this response, and told her I felt disrespected.

it will never help a person that feels shut down and is wanting you to soothe them in a dysfunctional way, to respond with what they are doing wrong and how they can soothe you, any more than it would have helped to tell her how much you loved her and do want her and werent rejecting her.

when someone comes at you with something completely unreasonable, counter with a mature response, that doesnt do so directly, but leaves them to see the absurdity, and self soothe.

as a rule, dont threaten or talk breakups unless you are prepared to follow through. she over compensated in response, and you werent prepared to follow through. if you were, rather than entertaining the idea of marriage, the only response is to reinforce that you want to breakup.

but lets say, hypothetically, you hadnt proposed a breakup, and she just came out there with the marriage talk.

i might have said something (only for example) like "let me reflect on that, and lets talk about it later." maybe i would have tried lightening the mood (and dodging) with something like "wow, you sure love me huh". you know her best, and youll need to personalize it, those are just ideas.

does that make sense?

[PurpleFlower]

once removed - Thank you for taking the time to walk through this with me, I greatly appreciate it.

shes setting you up to reject her when she does that. dont shut it down, but why respond as if its a serious and thought through proposal? see it for what it is, and then its easier to work with.

I never actually thought of this this way. I knew she was setting me up to reject her, she's done it an uncountable number of times before, and I have started to notice and see it, but I don't know why I didn't realize that I shouldn't respond to it as if its a serious proposal. For some reason I've had difficulty realizing that I should be responding to it (maturely) as absurd.
 

as a rule, dont threaten or talk breakups unless you are prepared to follow through. she over compensated in response, and you werent prepared to follow through. if you were, rather than entertaining the idea of marriage, the only response is to reinforce that you want to breakup.

This is a good rule that I personally follow. And I have followed through on it before (we broke up once before). When I suggested it now I was fully and willing to go through with it. It's what I thought (and to an extent still think) is the most healthy option for both of us. In lieu of breaking up though, I'm going to redouble my efforts not to JADE.

i might have said something (only for example) like "let me reflect on that, and lets talk about it later." maybe i would have tried lightening the mood (and dodging) with something like "wow, you sure love me huh". you know her best, and youll need to personalize it, those are just ideas.

does that make sense?

This does make sense, and I appreciate it. The second response would have gone over poorly last night I fear, although the first is good. It seems to me that the step I took was actually defending and explaining (DE) in disguise, even though I did not recognize it as such. When she does something like that, then I seem to be learning that I should make sure she knows she's heard ("I understand" or "I can tell this is important to you" or "I hear you") and then letting her know that I have truly understood and want to take some time to process ("Let me think about it" or "let me reflect on that"). I should also be gently pressing to discuss it in person too, since text sucks for this ("Let me reflect on that, and then let's meet tomorrow/saturday/etc. and talk about it.") Can I ask for some advice if this doesn't work, or if she reacts in a way I didn't anticipate? For example, what if she presses me for an answer now? Or redoubles her efforts?

A short update, she initially responded poorly to my email, but told me she'd text me when she felt better. She texted me for a bit about a Christmas tree she bought, she sent me some selfies and I told her how beautiful she looked, and I said "I love you" and she responded with "you do?" which... .I'm surprised but it really hurt. She then asked if it was ok if she blocked me for a bit again and I said I understood. It's going to take some time to rebuild this but I'm trying.

Working through these JADE examples is really beneficial to me, and is really helping me understand SET and other validation tools a lot better, as well as how to respond to dysregulation. I've also been reading The High Conflict Couple, which I bought a few months ago but finally committed to reading and internalizing. Would it be a bother if I worked out another one?

We've been together a year, you'd think I would be better at this :/ I'm kind of ashamed that I'm not.

[PurpleFlower]

This is a good rule that I personally follow. And I have followed through on it before (we broke up once before). When I suggested it now I was fully and willing to go through with it. It's what I thought (and to an extent still think) is the most healthy option for both of us. In lieu of breaking up though, I'm going to redouble my efforts not to JADE.

I want to clarify, that the return of marriage didn't immediately follow my suggestion of breaking up. There was a few texts in between, where she indicated and claimed that breaking up was not what she thought was best. Then she suggested marriage, a little out of left field. However, I can see how this is only confounding details that are irrelevant. I didn't follow through with what I suggested, which is the main point you were trying to make which I didn't quite get on my first read through, apologies!

[Radcliff]

You're getting some great advice from once removed here.  I particularly liked the observation that the marriage bid didn't have to be received in the same way you'd receive a rational suggestion. 

Hang in there.  It takes time to get good at minimizing conflict.  You will have setbacks.  When you're feeling tired or vulnerable will be the toughest times.  One of the most important keys to minimizing conflict is to not be reactive, which requires us to be mindful and see their zinger coming but not let it hit our heart.  Reality checking with us here may help to build your confidence in your perceptions (i.e. you are not abusive or crazy).  If we are confident our perception of reality, and know that a sudden proposal of marriage is not reasonable for example, we feel less threatened and we're better able to respond in a nonreactive way.

RC

[PurpleFlower]

Radcliff - Thank you for that. I know that for me, when I'm tired is always the worst and toughest times for me. That was why one of the boundaries we set in place when we started the relationship again was that we would both go to bed at midnight (she used to stay up until almost 2, and I used to be pretty bad and extricating myself from that to sleep myself and would stay up with her). This, at least, was a boundary I successfully put in place. That has actually really helped.

I've emailed her saying good morning and that I hope she has a good day. Her response to "I love you" still bothers me, and I keep thinking she doesn't love me anymore, but I'm trying to stay positive and just give her the space she wants to work through her emotions. I really want this to work which is why I've come back here so that I have a support system. I really appreciate all of you.

I still feel abusive because of the things I said, but hearing that I'm not from you, Radcliff really helped and I didn't even realize how much it would, so thank you.

[Radcliff]

One tool I used was journaling.  I wrote down the things I was experiencing, what my wife said and did to me, in as neutral a way as possible.  And when she accused me of being abusive, I genuinely expressed my concern for her feelings and asked her to tell me more so I could learn.  I never validated that I was abusive, just tried to learn where her feelings were coming from.  Often "abuse" to her meant that I'd simply hurt her feelings.  This combination of privately recording what I was experiencing and trying to calmly reach through the noise to find out what was distressing her both validated to me that I was receiving abuse and that I wasn't abusive.

RC

p.s.  One other tip is to develop a "BPD translator" in your head so that when she says "You're abusive," you start to hear "You hurt my feelings."  This can help avoid the feelings of injustice and upset that might otherwise throw you off your game.

[PurpleFlower]

That's a good tip Radcliff! I kept a diary for a while but I fell out of practice and I was planning to get back into it as I feel like when I did it it was immensely helpful.

Unfortunately I've already somewhat validated I was abusive by telling her I feel abusive :/ But at least in the future I know some better techniques to try avoid doing that. I feel like I've done too much wrong now to recover this relationship though which really bums me out.

[once removed]

For some reason I've had difficulty realizing that I should be responding to it (maturely) as absurd.

maturely is key. you dont want to treat her as if, or make her feel shes stupid. dont shut her down or reject her, but parry with maturity. its kind of like Radcliff was saying about translating... .people with BPD traits tend to exaggerate and express themselves in over the top ways, impulsively. see it for what it is.

if i accused you of liking to punch babies, you wouldnt respond to me with a well thought out argument about how you dont like to punch babies.
 

When she does something like that, then I seem to be learning that I should make sure she knows she's heard ("I understand" or "I can tell this is important to you" or "I hear you") and then letting her know that I have truly understood and want to take some time to process

the key to these communication tools is authenticity and sincerity (they can be awkward at first). if they arent authentic or sincere, or how you talk, the person on the receiving end will see right through it, and/or feel talked down to. so, the above are all fine examples, if they are how you speak to your girlfriend.

making sure someone feels heard can be either more or less than saying "i hear you". sometimes actions show it just fine.

one very effective tool that avoids JADE, and demonstrates that we are listening at the same time (and can come in handy in this particular case), is to use the power of asking validating questions: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=273415.0

Can I ask for some advice if this doesn't work, or if she reacts in a way I didn't anticipate? For example, what if she presses me for an answer now? Or redoubles her efforts?

anticipate that she might react in a way you didnt anticipate, especially if you are changing the way you respond. this is where asking validating questions can be useful, and why its another good alternative in this scenario. asking questions doesnt reject her, doesnt validate the invalid, isnt a yes or no, but demonstrates that you are listening. for an impulsive and sensitive person, they may start to think through and see what they are doing.

Would it be a bother if I worked out another one?

please do! this is the place to get feedback on our approach.

[Radcliff]

I understand about validating the invalid and admitting to being a villain when it wasn't true.  I've been there and done that.  Between getting our own sense of reality bent by the pwBPD, and our desire to get things calm again, it's a definite risk that other members have succumbed to as well.

I'm sorry you are feeling like you've done too many wrong things for the relationship to recover.  These situations are tough, and destined to make us feel bad about how well we're "performing" at times.  The best you can do is work with the tools you have, and work to build your toolkit.  I'm impressed to hear that you're reading The High Conflict Couple.  That's a great book.

RC

[PurpleFlower]

one very effective tool that avoids JADE, and demonstrates that we are listening at the same time (and can come in handy in this particular case), is to use the power of asking validating questions: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=273415.0

This was actually a really illuminating post I hadn't read yet, and I appreciate you sharing it once removed. It's been really informative, and I intend to start applying some of those lessons now. I realized I've been using "why" questions a lot, and so I'm going to try transition more to "what" which makes it easier to ask a validating question.

Radcliff - Thank you for your kind words. I'm doing my best to better myself right now, in our time of low communication. I'll have to try harder not to succumb to validating the invalid (I did it before the breakup as well, it's something I seem to be prone to do :/)

Short update, we emailed a bit, she asked me to explain some things in a paper she was reading. She's now feeling like she's annoyed me because I mentioned I hadn't been able to get done what I wanted to get done, and I've been trying to apply some lessons here in my response, asking what is making her feel that way. She said she annoys and upsets me, so I asked what I did that made her feel like I'm annoyed or upset, so that I can avoid it in the future. It may have sounded a bit stilted at first, but I think it's a better response than I might have otherwise given.

I'm going to work out another JADE example at some point, I'm just trying to think of a few from my personal experience so I can learn from my mistakes. Thank you all for your comments, they're helping me regain my internal balance!

[PurpleFlower]

Ah bad start to the day. This morning I woke up and saw that she had sent me a few emails last night about F, asking what I would do if she messaged me. I sent this this morning

Good morning

I can tell that all of this still bothers and upsets you, and I understand. So I would like to talk about it in person tomorrow, to make sure that everything is heard. In the mean time, what can I do to show you that I don’t hate you? How would you handle this situation?

And if I might ask two more questions, do you think we will get through this? Is it over?

I got... . a bad response. 5 emails telling me that she didn't want to talk about it in person, there was nothing to talk about, she already knows I'll keep talking to F, why did I have to say I would stop 'for SO' rather than just because F 'sucks', she doesn't want to hear any more of my lies, that dodging the question made her way worse and she woke up this morning feeling fine but then I had to go and ignore her question and trigger her, how now that I took so long to reply and dodged the question nothing will make her believe that she isn't second in this relationship anymore. She said me evading her question makes her feel like s... t. I just want to talk about it in person?

She said it's not over but the tone of her emails sounds so done with me. Seriously, I can count on one hand the amount of times I've seen F in the past two years, I don't ever reach out to her, she's always the one instigating conversation with me, and even then it's once every two months, at most. And I've tried to explain this but to no avail.

[Radcliff]

You were doing OK for the first two sentences.  Questions can add a lot of pressure, especially over e-mail.  Asking about the state of the relationship over e-mail is not likely to end well (that's a super tough one even in person).

Here are your first two sentences:

I can tell that all of this still bothers and upsets you, and I understand. So I would like to talk about it in person tomorrow, to make sure that everything is heard.

The first sentence looks pretty perfect as far as I can tell.  As I read your second sentence, thinking about how it might feel to your SO, you are talking about what you want, almost as if it is giving her directions.  I completely understand that's not what you intended.  When I write e-mails I reread them several times pretending to be the person who will receive them, and trying to see alternative interpretations.  This is super time consuming, and I sometimes still crash and burn, so that's why I like to keep e-mails short and try to move it to in-person as you did.

For an idea on a re-write of the second sentence:

I can tell that all of this still bothers and upsets you, and I understand. I would like to hear how you feel and get to a better place with you.  I think I could do much better at this if we could talk in person.  I'd be happy to meet tomorrow if you'd like.

Do you see the difference?  

RC

p.s.  We are honing your craft here.  It's about controlling what you can control and bringing your best.  You can do your best on your half, and sometimes she will still bring drama.  Don't fall into the trap of thinking if you can just get everything perfect, her half will be perfect, too.  Just bring whatever your best is at the time and keep growing.

[PurpleFlower]

I completely understand that's not what you intended.  When I write e-mails I reread them several times pretending to be the person who will receive them, and trying to see alternative interpretations.  This is super time consuming, and I sometimes still crash and burn, so that's why I like to keep e-mails short and try to move it to in-person as you did.

Ah, I see! I framed it more as what I wanted instead of indicating that it would be mutually beneficial. Thank you very much Radcliff!

Updates, because venting and thinking out loud helps a lot: she called me, she was alone and sad, I asked her about things and things were good until I asked her what I had done that made her think I hated her besides saying it when I snapped, and she said, ignoring her questions. I asked on the phone if she hated me and she said no. She then said that a lot of problems in this relationship have been caused in this relationship because I ignore her questions. She then told me she was going to hang up and wanted me to answer the questions, and then she sent an angry email talking about how I was trying to trap her when I had simply said that I avoided answering questions because when I do it over text what I say triggers her.

I sent back an email answering her question, telling her that when I said I'd stop seeing her if SO asked I was simply using her words (she had said before "If you wouldn't stop seeing her because it triggers me then we're done") and how that's all I was doing. I explained that I don't talk to F on a regular basis, as I've said before, and then mentioned that she had hung up while I was explaining this on Thursday. I tried to keep a pretty neutral tone throughout the email about it and then ended it with I hoped that she has a nice day. She fired back immediately with "You don't dislike her. Your actions show as much. Sorry I can't be her." (This worries me because I think she thinks I condone the cheating. If she cheats on me to try "be like her" I might just fall apart... .)

 I'm not really sure how to respond to this. I'm going to let it simmer for a while, but I might ask her what actions? She'll probably say my dodging questions. She said multiple times last night that she doesn't want to talk about it in person because I've said everything I need to by dodging her question. Advice greatly appreciated. I'm actually worried that if I take too long to respond she'll see that as "proof" that she's right, that I don't dislike her. Which I suppose is partway true, but it's not like I like F either. I'm pretty ambivalent towards her actually, even if I have known her for a long time.

Have I really been causing problems by dodging hard questions like that? It's not really dodging either, in the past I've been trying to parry but with limited success. I've typically been trying to get her to talk about them in person in the past and then eventually snap and answer them over text or email like I just did. Is this all my fault? Is my snapping and eventually answering them over text undermining my work? I tried really hard on the phone to be validating too. She kept asking if I hated her and said no, and that I understood she was hurt. Things like that. Now I can't shake this feeling that this is all my fault :/

[PurpleFlower]

Oh wow she sent me two more emails, the first one asking what I'd do if she messaged me asking to eat my dog. That's like... .super racist and not ok. The second she said "fine. you move on quick I guess. I’m glad you would keep talking to her anyway because you hate me so."

I'm stunned into silence. Genuinely don't even know what to say now.

I hope I'm not overstepping my bounds posting so much. This has just genuinely shocked me and I don't even know how to respond.

[once removed]

my ex partner did this about my ex girlfriends, and female friends. i got a lot of go "  so and so" or "go  your  :cursing:s". there really isnt a response to that. its just an immature way of blowing off steam, and you dont want to take the bait.

a couple of things here... .

i dont see her tone as one that sounds done with you. if she were done with you, she would have dropped all of this. shes upping the ante in an effort to get her way.

this "you hate me" thing, is very black and white thinking; you dont want to give it too much credence, in the same way as her marriage proposal. it is more over the top, exaggerated stuff.

and then eventually snap and answer them over text or email like I just did. Is this all my fault? Is my snapping and eventually answering them over text undermining my work?

it may possibly be undermining your work.

she has learned from experience that if she ups the ante, she will provoke a reaction and get a response. its going to take firmness and consistency on your end before she learns that its not a constructive way to communicate with you or have her needs met. but when you begin to change your response, you can often expect things to get worse before they get better. this is what she knows, and it has worked; she will continue, and try even harder in an effort to get that reaction. see it for what it is.

Oh wow she sent me two more emails, the first one asking what I'd do if she messaged me asking to eat my dog. That's like... .super racist and not ok.

hm? can you elaborate on this?

[PurpleFlower]

once removed - Thank you again for your kind comments. They are greatly appreciated.

In regards to the racism thing. F is Japanese. SO emailed asking "what would you do if F asked to eat your dog?" (My family just adopted a new dog after we put our last one down about a month and a half ago). It was super racist and not ok.

SO is going on about marriage again. We're not fighting about F anymore, still only email though. But she gets upset when I say I want to get married "some day." Which is true, I do. But I'm not ready now. Our positions in life are too unstable, she's too unstable, both of us could be going through a massive move in a year or less (graduate school). It's simply not feasible. And I've been trying to counter with "I want to consider your points" but she's just taking it to mean I don't want to get married at all. She's lashing out in anger, and I'm trying not to JADE but it's hard. I'm trying to just say things that I would be more comfortable to talk in person but I'm simply not equipped to deal with this situation honestly. Help!

[once removed]

But she gets upset when I say I want to get married "some day." Which is true, I do. But I'm not ready now. Our positions in life are too unstable, she's too unstable, both of us could be going through a massive move in a year or less (graduate school). It's simply not feasible.

is it true?

its an honest, rhetorical question.

i said it to my ex. i thought i meant it. i couldnt see it at any point in our future.

and if thats the case for you, its likely she senses that.

its certainly good that its not something youre inclined to jump into. is it really something you want, and are inclined to do, with her? if so, it may be that there are some points here you can work with.

[PurpleFlower]

Yes. It is true. But I'm a pragmatic person. But marriage right now is infeasible. I want to marry her at some point, I would love to spend the rest of my life with her if I could just figure this damn thing out.

Things have been hectic. She was upset that when we went on a date on Tuesday I "didn't make her feel loved" because I was sad. We also went skating together and then she broke away for a bit to practice and I tried to work on my skating so she would be impressed (only my third time on the ice) and apparently she felt I didn't want to be in this relationship anymore because I didn't watch her when she was skating. :/

Apparently I'm also abusive now. Again. Yesterday she started breaking down because of something stupidly inconsequential (I didn't tell her this, of course. That wouldn't have been a good response) and I told her I'd block her so we could calm down since she was getting heated and calling people the w words. I said I would unblock her at 9 (three hours later) after we were calm and precisely at 9, not even 9:01 I messaged her to talk and got "Abuse." as a response and then nothing more until today when we exchanged Christmas gifts. But she keeps going on about how its psychological abuse to shut her out if she gets bad. How it's abuse. Today I told her (in person) I didn't block her because she was bad, but because I couldn't handle it and like always just need some space to calm down. Doesn't matter. Abusive! Everything I do. Abusive! When I called the police to try get her help in September that was abuse! Everything is abuse now. Literally everything. God it's infuriating. Seriously. Am I mad? Am I going mad? Am I the abusive one? She sent me all these emails about how she dropped all her friends because of how they felt about me (?) how she has no one except me, and now I'm leaving her and that's abusive. How the silent treatment is abusive. Abuse abuse abuse abuse.

I haven't conceded that I'm abusive this time. I've just been saying I hear her concerns and that I won't block her anymore and when we were in person we both agreed we would figure out a better way to handle our problems instead. But am I abusive? :/

[once removed]

taking a healthy time out can be ideal when both parties are heated and everything is just getting worse.

its a fine line between doing so and the other person feeling punished.

"you do this or say these words and im going to block you" feels like punishment to her.

I haven't conceded that I'm abusive this time. I've just been saying I hear her concerns and that I won't block her anymore and when we were in person we both agreed we would figure out a better way to handle our problems instead. But am I abusive? :/

im not sure "abusive" is a constructive term here. the two of you had an arrangement with the blocking thing... .maybe its no longer constructive or went overboard. its good not to jump on or argue about it when she accuses you of being abusive. it is good to listen to how she feels about the blocking, and what she feels might be a better way.

[Bnonymous]

I am locking this thread as it has now reached the posting limit. The original poster is welcome to start a new thread to continue discussing this topic.