I would like to hear your experiences on boundaries and implementing them

[5min]

Lucky/Red5, I would like to hear your experiences on boundaries and implementing them. My wife is also violent and when I try to distance myself, she goes into a rage hitting me and slapping herself, slamming me into the door frame, even smashed through the door with a bat. The violence has escalated over the last 7 years.

[RolandOfEld]

Hi 5min, this is an important topic so I suggest opening it to all members to get more feedback on your thread. Hope you don't mind if I weigh in.

My wife was violent, too. Following the advice of the members here, I reported her behaviors to the local police. I didn't have her arrested or make a big show of it, but put it on a record. Then each time I told her what I did. No happy reaction from her, but eventually the violence toward me stopped.

I suggest you make a friend at your local police station and see if you can start a record without police needing to take any followup action. But you can certainly warn her of followup action if it continues.

What do you think?

~ROE

[Red5]

Lucky/Red5, I would like to hear your experiences on boundaries and implementing them. My wife is also violent and when I try to distance myself, she goes into a rage hitting me and slapping herself, slamming me into the door frame, even smashed through the door with a bat. The violence has escalated over the last 7 years.

Hello 5min,

(background) I'm over fifty now, .I've been a relationship - marriage with uBPDW for eleven years, and we've been married for seven plus years now... .she is my second wife, she was also previously married, both these prior marriages lasted over twenty years each, respectively... .

It wasn’t up until maybe three years ago that I really understood what a so called “healthy boundary” even was… I understood what it meant maybe, a “facsimile” thereof… as to call an “event” a “deal breaker”… or something I wouldn’t stand for in a relationship… ie’ my first wife committing serial adultery, or neglect of our children... .or any other (myriad) of not (none) acceptable behaviors by one or the other party in a relationship – marriage.

I understood the term “doormat”… and I have served in that capacity many times.

Life is tough, and it’s tougher if you are not “in the loop”…

So, in my current marriage (we are now separated)… boundaries… yes, I tried my hand at them… ie’

*Don’t scream at me.
*Don’t yell at me.
*Don’t disrespect me.
*Don’t treat me like a child.
*Don’t take advantage of me.
*Don’t break my heart.
*Don’t be abusive to my child.

Those were some of the first “boundaries” that I erected in this marriage relationship when I came upon the BPD phenomena, as a plausible explanation as to what I was experiencing with my wife.

_She did not take kindly to being told “no”_ “don’t do that to me, I am not going to tolerate it anymore”_

She fought me, cussed me, and threatened me with this that and the other… that I was indeed wrong, and that she was the one whom was correct in her behaviors.

Tough times…

Persons whom are npd, and BPD don’t like to be informed of facts, or truth, or else being told that they are maybe wrong when they behave badly.

There are certain types of boundaries that may be indeed _“deal breakers”_ in a relationship – marriage.

Such as,

*Adultery, having sex, or a romance of any type with somebody else outside the marriage – relationship.

*Actual physical violence, as you are describing, hitting, scratching, bruising, pushing, poking, “man-handling”… or else tossing, throwing, destroying items, or possessions in a serial manner… repetitively, without remorse.

*Threating my career, my livelihood, my ability to provide a home, substance, and security.

*Being abusive, both physically, and emotional to my children.

Then there are the daily general purpose boundaries…

*If you are going to start a fight when we are on travel, then I don’t travel with you anymore.

*If you speak to me in a disrespectful, angry manner, I am going to leave your presence.

*I won’t tolerate “control”, ie’ money, or being able to coexist, ie’ maybe I want to go fishing, or take the boat out, or go shopping… or go for a walk… if you (uBPDW) tell me I can’t go, then that is control, and that is a hard “nogo”, ie’ boundary.

*Starting a disagreement, and then telling me “go sleep on the couch”… uh’ NO!… I sleep where I want to, and that may be in the marriage bed, or it may not be, but you (uBPDW), that’s not up to you, and this is reciprocal to me as well.

*Any kind of BPD type behaviors… silent treatment, acting out, character assassination to family (foo), or neighbors-community acquaintances… yelling-screaming-raging… destruction of our things… not tolerated.

So what happens (happened) when I told her no, when I drew a line, and I said that’s not acceptable to me… we need to discuss this, we need to try to get along’ to get along’, we need to agree to disagree…

Well, not very good… as I said, most times she (uBPDW) would “go off”… it was very rare that she said, “you know Babe, you are right”… extremely rare… and if she ever did say “she was sorry”… the very next fight-quarrel-disagreement-dysregulation… it was “pulled” out and eviscerated, blown-up, and shredded…

Every pw/BPD (npd) is quite different,

... .If you’ve ever met one, then you’ve met one (1)… they are _all_ different, “traits of” - “malignant”… left to right on the spectrum, high functioning, mid functioning, low functioning… “waif” – “hermit” – “queen” – “witch”…… so forth and so on… blah blah blah… there are ten of them ?… and BPD’ers are a little bit of all ten in one maybe?…

... .aren’t we all a bit disordered?

Lord Knows : (

Every relationship is different, aspects of, experiences, etc’.

Closing, to answer your question 5min;… I’ve had very mixed, but mostly negative responses, experiences with setting, erecting… or else enforcing any kind of boundary with my (suspected) undiagnosed, borderline disordered wife… whom I am now separated from…

*Why are me and my udx wife separated, well… she (step mom) punched out my autistic son… a “deal breaker”… zero tolerance.

May good karma, and endless happiness engulf you : )

Kind Regards, Red5

[5min]

Red 5:  Thanks for discussing your boundary experiences. My own experiences are that my udBPDw will never respect a boundary.

Roland: I'll happily hear others experiences with boundaries. This post was originally within another member's topic. I agree with the MOD who thought it an important enough question to move into a separate topic. So Yes lets hear others as well.

[Cat Familiar]

My own experiences are that my udBPDw will never respect a boundary.

It's an interesting question. I have implemented boundaries that don't require my husband's cooperation.

For example, if he starts getting agitated and argumentative, I leave the room with an invented excuse. "I've got to medicate the cat." Or "I've got to take some clothes out of the dryer." "I left the water running in the garden." "I've got to use the restroom."

Short of following me, which is a possibility that almost never happens, I have an unlimited number of excuses that allow me to exit. And if he were to follow me, I'd make up something that would be so odious to him, that he wouldn't have any desire to tag along--like, "I'm going to clean out the goat manure in the goat shed." He's a city boy, so I know how to easily gross him out. 

[Lucky Jim]

My wife is also violent and when I try to distance myself, she goes into a rage hitting me and slapping herself, slamming me into the door frame, even smashed through the door with a bat. The violence has escalated over the last 7 years.

Hey 5min, To me that kind of physical abuse -- hitting you and slamming you into a door frame -- is unacceptable in a marriage, so it's up to you to start enforcing your boundaries, like leaving home the next time it happens.  Maybe you could work on your strategy?  For example, I kept a change of clothes and tooth brush in the trunk of my car for nights when I had to stay at a motel.  Maybe you can make arrangements with a friend or family member to stay over if things escalate again?  It seems like you have come to normalize behavior on her part that is way out of bounds, which can happen in a BPD marriage.  I should know, having been formerly married to a pwBPD for 16 years.

LuckyJim

[5min]

Roland - getting her behavior documented is a great idea. I will look for a contact.

Red5  - I like those boundaries. I struggle with seeing everything as a trigger. I'll still try to implement them.

Cat - I do use excuses when I can to get away but those are at risk of a greater eruption.

Luck Jim - I agree. It is unacceptable. And yes it seems like I have awoken to see her behavior as it is and the uphoria of when she is not behaving that way as false. She should behave with respect. I keep a change of clothes at work but lately have some in my computer bag. I think I need to work out an exit strategy that can be permanent if need be. Leaving when it gets bad, really escalates her rage. She refuses to accept that she has any fault or responsibility in this. Maybe I need to accept that in my case, it will not get better and plan accordingly.

Thanks for your support.

[flourdust]

Hi, 5min!  

Boundaries are one of the most frequently discussed topics here at bpdfamily. Also, to be honest, one of the most frequently misused... . 

I have a few quick rules of thumb I used when I worked on my own boundaries.

GOOD: A boundary is about what I will do.
BAD: A boundary is about what I will make someone else do.

These kind of bad boundaries ... ."You will not scream at me" ... .are really ultimatums or demands. They're an attempt to control other people.

A good boundary is about what I will do when my own values are threatened. "I will leave the room if someone screams at me, because I value treating people (including myself) with dignity."

GOOD: A boundary is about protecting myself from an important transgression of my values.
BAD: A boundary is about punishing someone whenever they do something I don't like.

Leaving the room because abuse is being hurled at me -- for me, that's a good boundary. You might have a thicker skin or be used to a culture of trash-talking, so that might be no big deal for you. That's fine!

If my boundary was "I will leave the house if she doesn't wash the dishes" -- that would be a bad boundary. I like a clean house, sure, but dirty dishes don't threaten my core values. They're just unpleasant and annoying. This boundary is just me being punitive.

GOOD: A boundary can protect me in the moment, but it doesn't solve underlying relationship problems. And I accept that other people may not like my boundaries and may treat me negatively as a result.
BAD: I will enforce my boundaries as much as I can until I get the behavior I don't like to stop. If it gets worse, I'll come up with even more boundaries and enforce them just as rigidly.

I think this one is pretty self-explanatory... .

For more reading, here's one of our pages on boundaries. What do you think? Did I get it right?

[Lucky Jim]

Leaving when it gets bad, really escalates her rage. She refuses to accept that she has any fault or responsibility in this. Maybe I need to accept that in my case, it will not get better and plan accordingly.

Hey 5min, Of course she's going to get upset if you leave the premises, but that's her problem, not yours.  Leaving is a bright line.  It's a line in the sand.  You can let her know that you'll be back when things calm down.  What you are seeking to establish is the boundary that you will leave if she gets physically violent with you.  She'll get the message if you leave.  Sad to say, I spent many a night in a motel in order to protect my core value of not being the object of anyone's abuse, as flourdust suggests.

LuckyJim

[5min]

She has been ranting all week which started over nothing as usual and then everything from the last 12 years comes out. This morning she also hit me in the head with her phone and fist. So I said I would not accept that behavior and tried to talk through it. Both our childhoods have hitting but she thinks it is an acceptable way to get my attention. She continued hitting so I left, which at this point I feel needs to be permanent. I can not wrap my brain around the notion that hateful name calling, ranting, and hitting are somehow supposed to endear love and respect.

I'm reading "Egg Shells" and struggling with all the "have to treat BPs this way" and have to be so specific in what you can and can not say. BPs are  not obligated to respect any rules of decency. It hit me that for most things no matter how much effort or how difficult to fix, repair, or restore I can do it. I see how much love God has because He still loves her when I'm not sure I do. I know I'm worn out.

[Red5]

*She has been ranting all week which started over nothing as usual and then everything from the last 12 years comes out.

*This morning she also hit me in the head with her phone and fist.

*I can not wrap my brain around the notion that hateful name calling, ranting, and hitting are somehow supposed to endear love and respect.

*I'm reading "Egg Shells" and struggling with all the "have to treat BPs this way" and have to be so specific in what you can and can not say.

*I see how much love God has because He still loves her when I'm not sure I do. I know I'm worn out.

Afternoon 5min,

Yes, I also noted as the relationship wore on, I more and more lost my “endearment” towards her, ie’ my empathy well began to ‘run dry’... .

I remember back in August, or was it September... .after she tore up the back yard in a BPD rage, in front of her D33 and her H whom were here visiting, as well me and my Son... .of note, this was the first time D33’s H had ever seen his new MIL “in action”... .he later told me that he was “scared to to even go outside”... .

I remember telling D33; as she has been witness to these destructive behaviors before... .and has also, she related to me over the years how it was to be raised by her mum, and how things were between uBPDw, and her first H, D33’s dad... .I remember telling her, “it grieves me to even tell you this, but each time she does this, I feel myself falling out of love with your mum”, just a little bit more each time” -endearment-... .she’d asked me if I was alright, and if my S32(autistic) and I were going to join them for ”dinner out” that evening, as though nothing had ever happened... .you see, everyone in the BPD’s life seems to be always trying to “smooth it back over” as soon as possible, in a vain attempt to get things back to “normal” only to have another dysrgulation-BPD rage follow... .

It’s very sad, and I myself can longer live like that, .especially after uBPDw turned her wrath to my Son... .I wrote on here a while back... .”if it were just me I could take her $hit, but my kid shouldn’t have to”... .

So we are now separated.

“Egg Shells”... .I have something to share, that book is now on YouTube... .the whole eight plus hours... .so now, it’s available to be played on your phone, or another computer, or pad... .and you can reverse it, or fast forward it... .to hear the same thing over and over... .or to search exact quotes as you want to hear them again on a certain time mark.

Here is the link (url)-

https://m.you.tube.com/watch?v=5QY4JZJonCs

I read this the other day on another site... .
’quote’ Patrick Carnes, PhD, “Loyalty to that which does not work, or worse, to a person who is toxic, exploitive or destructive to you, is a form of insanity” (The Betrayal Bond, 1997).

Hmmmm... .

Hang in there 5min, best regards, Red5

[zachira]

I found that I am only good at implementing boundaries that reflect my values and feelings. Sometimes boundaries have been hard to implement because I was still trying to find love with someone who was similar to my BPD and NPD family members, and of course, these people did not have the capacity to have healthy relationships. Enacting boundaries is about where one is on their journey. The healthier I get, the easier it is to attract the right people, though I will always struggle with my desire to find love with those who cannot possibly love anybody else because they are such damaged individuals.

[once removed]

I'm reading "Egg Shells" and struggling with all the "have to treat BPs this way" and have to be so specific in what you can and can not say. BPs are  not obligated to respect any rules of decency.

you live with and love a very difficult person.

the tools here are to help you resolve conflict in mature, and ideally peaceful ways. they are basic life skills that work with everyone. i dont currently have someone with BPD in my life but i use them all the time.

there are not set rules on how one must treat someone with BPD; thinking in those terms can be akin to walking on eggshells. its more about understanding both the tendencies and limitations of your partner so that you can work with them.

as far as specifics in what to say and what not to say: the communication skills only work if they are delivered in an authentic, personalized, and sincere way (like learning a new way to write an essay, this takes practice). they will not achieve anything if you speak as if you are reading from a script.

[love4meNOTu]

So that's the conundrum... When your personal boundary is her trigger.

Raised voices were mine, if I felt like I was reacting to the anger in a conversation (mine or his) i asked for a time out. for me. That wasn't respected. He was too invested in controlling me with his anger to ever want to work things out mutually.

There were bursts of anger from him... Chasing me around the house from room to room, breaking down a door that was locked, keeping me awake all night with his raging and off the wall accusations.

It worked tho... It got me to shut up and do what he wanted and that's the issue. He did not want mutuality, he wanted rule.

He couldn't give that up, and I couldn't become a ghost of myself to please him. I couldn't give myself up. ☺

Boundaries work in a healthy relationship dynamic, they really do. Now when I ask for something that's important to me i am heard

[Red5]

Raised voices were mine, if I felt like I was reacting to the anger in a conversation (mine or his) i asked for a time out. for me. That wasn't respected. He was too invested in controlling me with his anger to ever want to work things out mutually.

Same here, .me too.

It worked though... It got me to shut up and do what he wanted and that's the issue. He did not want mutuality, he wanted rule.

He couldn't give that up, and I couldn't become a ghost of myself to please him. I couldn't give myself up.

I remember the day that the “fog” lifted just enough for me to see and realize that I’d become “lost” in the marraige.

I was being hollowed out... .I was almost a shell of my former self... .

That was sobering to me.

I was a door mat.

Red5

[love4meNOTu]

Well Red... you aren't a doormat now, are you?

You stood up for yourself and your son.

I know you feel shame and guilt, I've felt it too for many reasons... ., forgive yourself red.

We've got to make the most of the rest of the time we've got.

Hugs,

L

[Sweetpea18]

Red5, I remember the same thing, our stories are very similar,  she went after my 10 year old child in a drunken rage (my biological, she was step mom), at that point I had to leave, it was getting worse and worse, and I too was in a fog, it still amazes me what and who I’d become and even now at times, I miss her, even though I know nothing would have changed, but I really did think it would for so long... .when I left, it was the hardest thing I have ever done, not to mention, the recovery from this type of relationship is so hard... .we share a small child, so unfortunately I can’t escape her all together, but she is involved with someone, so she pretty much leaves me alone, she didn’t respect any boundaries, she was the only one “allowed” to have boundaries... .what I didn’t realize is the anger she had/has because I left... .I didn’t realize that I was the first guy to ever leave and how she blames me for abandoning her, and completely discounts her behavior and blames me for everything, that was sobering for me, I didn’t know she had BPD when we were married, I guess I had become so angry and bitter at her I didn’t care to learn and had no idea, I don’t feel guilty though, she doesn’t want help and thinks she has done nothing wrong, so I know I made the right choice... .

[Cat Familiar]

I don’t feel guilty though, she doesn’t want help and thinks she has done nothing wrong, so I know I made the right choice... .

I stayed in a very dysfunctional marriage for far too many years. It was BPD on steroids. When I finally left, after a major boundary violation, I still felt damaged for a long time, though I did feel free at last.

When I encountered him a number of years later, he said, "I'm not really a bad guy."

I had to laugh to myself, thinking--"You mean, other than the serial adultery, the violence, the financial responsibility--other than that?"

[Red5]

No, ’boundaries’ have never really worked out well for me.

Every relationship is different, many facets of each relationship construct are also different.

Depending on the degrees of extreme or the position on the ‘spectrum’... .will decide how effective boundaries will be once rolled out for implementation in a BPD/npd relationship, really in any relationship either dysfunctional or healthy for that matter.

No, I’m afraid I’d hitched my red caboose to a ‘wild one’... .as the years have gone by, and I’ve watched her F’o’O in action, observing the relationship dynamics of the three marriages of the three F’o’O sisters (ours included in the three)... .and even interacting with my fellow BIL’s... .well... ... .it is quite evident that this type relationship construct is well ensconced in this family, ie’ a learned thing from F’o’O mum and daddy... .and I can also see that’s its multi generational as well.

My two other counterparts are characters in their own rights, both are under TOTAL control   ... .

I am amazed by the fact that they even function at all, neither has any iota ‘where the money goes’... .or a say in any way in regards to how either of those house holds are run.

And they’ve been doing this for thirty - thirty three years respectively... .

No wonder she has fought so hard to get me ‘under her control’

But in our marriage... .our relationship... .which by all indicators, appears to be ‘over’... .things for me are about to change, as I am no longer under her influence... .and neither is my Son any longer.

Her own S31 shared with me about two weeks ago, a series of texts uBPDw had sent him... .complaining about one of our ‘disagreements’... .she said in the text... .“I can’t control him anymore, he doesn’t listen to me... .he does not do anything I tell him to do”... .

Yeah... .Wow !

Anyways... .it is what it is, she crossed ‘my’ boundary... .and that action was a ‘dealbreaker’ to me.

Even today, I’m still struggling in my mind, my heart with ‘congnitive dissonance’ as well extreme guilt as I feel like I’m failing her, and not taking care of her as she has st-age i-v r.c.c,

I know that what she did to S32(autistic) should stand that on its head, and that I should release her to own consequences now... .but still I struggle... .

Red5

[zachira]

I have found it gets easier, though it is never easy, to implement boundaries as my self knowledge, and understanding that everybody is different from others in their own ways.

[Sweetpea18]

I understand Red5, I felt responsible for her, and took care of her and helped her for several months after we separated and initiated divorce proceedings, when the magnitude of everything hit me and I knew it was over, the pain and anguish was so great that in my desire to get away from the pain was considering taking her back and asked my child who she assaulted, if she would be willing to forgive her step mother and try again, and as I’m sitting there tearing up when I ask her, she looks at me says “I’ll do it for you daddy”... .in that moment I felt so low, asking a 10 year old, so I can not hurt, that was a sobering moment for me... .I felt shame for even asking, as the relationship had so many other problems and that was just the proverbial “straw” that broke the camels back, as I have gained so much knowledge and understanding of BPD, and the dynamic of our relationship, I can tell you, unequivocally, that leaving was the best thing, as I am what they call a “people pleaser “ and her a taker, nothing would gotten better, at least for her and I, apparently she has found happiness and nirvana with her new boyfriend, and as quick as she moved on (divorce wasn’t even final before she started with him), i know that is more about her than what I lacked... .it’s not easy, I ruminate and have good days and bad days, but the bad aren’t so paralyzing any more and the good days seem brighter. I think she knows it too, cause that’s when I get a random text or inquiry... .

[SweetCharlotte]

No, ’boundaries’ have never really worked out well for me.

Every relationship is different, many facets of each relationship construct are also different.
**********
Anyways... .it is what it is, she crossed ‘my’ boundary ... .and that action was a ‘dealbreaker’ to me.

Even today, I’m still struggling in my mind, my heart with ‘congnitive dissonance’ as well extreme guilt as I feel like I’m failing her, and not taking care of her as she has st-age i-v r.c.c,

I know that what she did to S32(autistic) should stand that on its head, and that I should release her to own consequences now... .but still I struggle ... .

Red5

Red5, no cause for a struggle with your conscience.
What you are relating is more than just a personal boundary — it's a violent crime punishable with prison time.
Cancer or no cancer, she has no right to assault a defenseless person and cause them bodily harm.
You could have pressed charges, and maybe you still should. Have you thought about it? Let the criminal justice system handle this; it's in their domain. Then your conscience would be clearer still, and you and your son would have closure.
What do you think?

[Red5]

Evening SweetCharlotte,

You could have pressed charges, and maybe you still should. Have you thought about it? Let the criminal justice system handle this; it's in their domain. Then your conscience would be clearer still, and you and your son would have closure.
What do you think?

Yes, I thought about it, the day it happened, but I didn’t do it... .there are a few reasons why, the below ran through my mind that morning, none of these were very good ones (valid).

*Its over now, best to just let it be over.
*She, uBPDw has enough problems, and S32(autistic) is safe now from her.
*I can and will prevent this from ever happening again.
*I will move out with S32(autistic), we will get away for her.
*I called her D33, so now the F’o’O will find out, and it won’t be too long until she will be punished by them.

Yes, all bravo sierra thoughts.

Now she is indeed gone, and no longer a threat to my Son.

Another thing that crossed my mind, and it did kind of sicken me that I would even think like this, as in I was very disappointed in myself for even thinking it, .is that ANY law enforcement involvement will show up on the “blotter”, and it will then show up on my security clearance adjudicate... .this would mean that I could very well have the clearance suspended, .or even revoked until there was an investigation... .yeah ; (

I don’t need that happening, so that was another BS reason to “let her go”, and “let it go”... .ugh ; (

I have a great job, and it provides a lot for us, I was very lucky to get this appointment after I retired from the service... .that said... .the Boss knows, as I told them what was going on a long time ago... .so, it is what it is.

So no cops... .

She is gone, and she ain’t coming back.

And S32(autistic) is now permanently free of her behaviors, and her abusive intents.

I should have never gotten remarried, that’s the BLUF... .

Red5

[SweetCharlotte]

I see what you mean about security clearance, Red5. It doesn't seem fair, but it definitely makes a person think twice about going for a legal remedy.