Real boundary examples that work

[UsedCarpet]

 This is my first post here.
My wife of 29 years has many traits similar to BPD.  Since I have survived this long,  I tell myself that her behavior is not that bad; but when the bad times are here it really hurts .
 Here is my question:
 When we have a disagreement,  she resorts to “dirty fighting”.
 Bringing up past mistakes, past disappointments, elevating her tone, name-calling, after that using the silent treatment.
I really try my best to remain calm,  listen to her, validate her feelings.
It really seems that it takes absolutely nothing at all to trigger these inappropriate emotional responses.
 What is an appropriate boundary to set up with her Re: guidelines for disagreement/argument/problem resolution? Along with the boundary, there need to be consequences for crossing it.
 What would be an appropriate consequence?
 I have attempted to set up boundaries like:
I would like you to remain calm and use a gentle voice.
Consequence:
If you continue to raise your voice, this conversation will need to stop.
She is fine with that, because then she can stew about how “disappointed” she is with me, and go into her silent treatment.
 Three, four, five days later, she will probably be nice to me. And act like nothing happened.
This boundary and consequence appears to have failed.

Any other consequence that may be more severe she may interpret as abusive.
I have to admit that I am not good at setting up boundaries. And I am also aware that she has set up many boundaries, and I do my best to respect them. I just now realize that she does not set up/define consequences ( she defines them on the fly as to how long she will be angry or silent or use for future arguments).

I am just worn out after so many years of repeating this cycle.
Thanks for listening,

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[Step3]

I wish I had an answer for you. I'm going through the exact same issues and can't figure out how to set a boundary that will work. I've even explained that the criticism, belittling and silent treatment is very painful and asked for more gentle approaches or to just say "I need space but I'll be back when I'm no longer angry." That never works. I doubt you have difficulties setting boundaries, I think with this type of partner (only from my experience) trying to set a boundary only pisses them off more and still makes us the "bad guy." It's a relief to know I'm not the only one with the exact situation but I'm also sorry you're going through it. Fortunately there are some awesome people on here who will show up with great advice. In the end, we just have to be gentle on ourselves.

[Radcliff]

You've come to the right place to work through these issues.  There are members here who also have decades of experience with BPD partners.  The tools you can learn here will help you get to a better place.  The topic of toxic conversations that you've brought up is an excellent one -- they were prevalent in my marriage and are a common issue for many members.

Boundaries are critical when living with a pwBPD.  Take a look at this page on setting boundaries.  A key principle that is a surprise for many is that boundaries are not about shaping the behavior of the other person.  We don't judge success by whether they behave differently, but by whether we were protected.  So if we leave a conversation that's become toxic and we protect ourselves from further abuse during that incident, it was a successful implementation of a boundary, even if they do it again the next day.  With calm and consistent application of boundaries, their behavior may change, but that's a secondary benefit.  Does that make sense?

You are totally on point with your efforts to remain calm, listen, and validate her feelings.  I bet with your years of experience you've been able to rack up a few "saves" where you were able to use these skills to prevent things from going south.  It's important to have a comprehensive approach to toxic conversations, solving the problem as far upstream as possible.  We can talk about ways to do that.

One thing I noticed is that you used "you" statements to describe the behavior change you wanted.  "You" statements can feel accusatory and controlling.  If your pwBPD feels accused, controlled, or punished, that will aggravate their fears and make things worse.  "I" statements are much better -- "I want to talk this through and listen carefully to what you want me to understand but I'm having a hard time doing that with loud voices and name calling.  If we can't talk quietly without name calling, I'm going to need to take a break for 20 minutes to calm down, then I'll be back and we can have another go at talking."

As you read through the page on boundaries and the suggestions above, do you notice anything that you could try that is different from the way you are currently doing things?

RC

[RolandOfEld]

Hi UsedCarpet and welcome!

Seconding everything that Radcliff said about boundaries.

I would say if your boundary attempts cause her to initiate silent treatment, this might not be the worst scenario. Trying the kind of communication you described with my wife would usually lead to even stronger intimidation and interrogation, sometimes even physical violence.

If you wife's response is to be silent and thereby end the conversation, I suggest you first work with that and allow her to stew while you do your best to maintain your daily life.

Does your wife have any other behaviors you feel cross a boundary?

Sending you strength,
RolandOfEld

[UsedCarpet]

Thanks Step2, Radcliff and Roland for the kind words and sound advice.
The Skip Johnson article on setting boundaries is very good. Every time I read it, I get something out of it.
Radcliff, yes I need to work on the “I” or “I feel” statements much more. Deep down I am afraid of more abusive statements like:
“I don’t care how you feel” or “I feel you’re being an ass” or whatever might come out of her mouth.
Roland, this is exactly where I am now, silence for 2 days now...

If you wife's response is to be silent and thereby end the conversation, I suggest you first work with that and allow her to stew while you do your best to maintain your daily life.

Does your wife have any other behaviors you feel cross a boundary?

I am respecting the silence (2 days now) and it sucks knowing that those 2 days of her stewing about how bad I am - are lost forever. Multiply that by the number of times this has happened in the past 29 years... I feel sad and disappointed about that.
Other behaviors that cross boundaries?
I really believe that I am terrible at boundaries and communicating what they are. Hypothetically, if there are no boundaries- she doesn’t cross them.
Are there boundaries I would like to establish?  Of course there are, but prior attempts to introduce them have failed miserably.
When does a person try to communicate boundaries? If she is in a good mood, trying to communicate boundaries at that time will turn things sour. And if she is in a bad place, ... I’m not willing to try that.

I know that I don’t give a lot of specific examples, and sometimes use generalization- but I just don’t want to air out dirty laundry here.
Thanks again for the kind words and support.

[Bnonymous]

Hi UsedCarpet,

Welcome to the forums!

When does a person try to communicate boundaries? If she is in a good mood, trying to communicate boundaries at that time will turn things sour. And if she is in a bad place, ... I’m not willing to try that.

That's a dilemma that most people here will recognise, I think. When the good times are there, we often just want to make the most of them and not risk rocking the boat. In the bad times, there's little point talking about serious issues, because a person who is emotionally dysregulating is not in a good place to listen.

I think there might be a few different things here (they overlap, but they're still different things).

1/ Having boundaries.

2/ Setting boundaries.

3/ Communicating about boundaries.

Think of having a boundary as a limit for yourself, e.g. "I will not be shouted at" - it is kind of like a fence that protects your emotional/mental space. Like a security light that comes on when someone steps into its range, this fence will detect trespass and pop up when it's needed. It could take the form of the words you have used (and Radcliff has helpfully modified). It could take the form of leaving the room. It could take the form of refusing to answer/engage. But it's a self-protective limit that reliably activates as and when required. In that sense, the boundary is communicated through action, whether or not there is any accompanying discussion around it.

Re setting boundaries. Some boundaries are developed almost organically and early on in life. Others have to be reflectively thought through, consciously chosen, and built up with practice. For example, when we know that a situation is making us anxious/fearful/miserable/ill, we can think about what in particular triggers these feelings in us and identify these things.

Then we consider whether we could change our feelings without changing the trigger (e.g. by changing our responses or interpretations). And we consider whether the trigger is in line with our values and what we are willing to accept. If the answer to either of these is "no,"  that's when we might need to start establishing a boundary.

We set boundaries by affirming our values to ourselves, recognising our limits and the need for a boundary to protect these, and then consistently acting as though that boundary is already established. If we go back to the security light example: in the setting boundaries stage, we are watching out for trespassers and manually pressing the on-switch for the light until it becomes automatic.

In short: Boundaries kick in when they're needed and are communicated through action (it can help to accompany the actions with words, but the actions speak loudest). Setting boundaries involves acting as if the boundary is already established. Both of these things come into play when required (i.e. when a boundary is close to being crossed).

Then there's communicating about boundaries. This is the tricky part. Much of it depends on the individual relationship and people in it.

Some couples (like me and my boyfriend) are fortunate enough to have open times where they can talk productively about things that have happened in the past and what these might mean for the future - if you and your pwBPD have this, then that is the time to bring up the "boundary" conversation, when you are both feeling calm, secure, and open to difficult conversations.

The boundary conversation is basically explaining that there are certain things you cannot allow in your life, due to your own needs and values, and that you will act in suchandsuch a way to protect yourself if these things happen. It's about communicating to your pwBPD that your boundary-enforcing actions are about protecting you, not controlling them. It's a difficult conversation to have with a pwBPD and many couples will need to skip it altogether.

If your pwBPD is not receptive to such conversations, then you will need to continue communicating boundaries as and when they are required, through actions and through simple statements accompanying the actions, as you have been doing (e.g. Radcliff's suggested "If we can't talk quietly without name calling, I'm going to need to take a break for 20 minutes to calm down, then I'll be back and we can have another go at talking.") Your boundaries are communicated through taking reliable/consistent action to enforce them.

It sounds as though you are actually doing fairly well with this. Your boundaries haven't changed your wife's values or actions, but they have successfully protected you from being subjected to raised voices. This is what they are supposed to. Give yourself credit where it's due. You've done really well with this one!

What other boundaries might you wish to establish?

[RolandOfEld]

it sucks knowing that those 2 days of her stewing about how bad I am - are lost forever. Multiply that by the number of times this has happened in the past 29 years... I feel sad and disappointed about that.

UC I get what you're saying here. It really sucks losing that time. Please don't think I am underestimating the severity of silent treatment. It is a form of controlling behavior and abuse no different than harsh language. I didn't realize that until I came here.

When does a person try to communicate boundaries?

First off, Bnonymous' sharing on this is awesome. I will just add a little personal experience.

When I first attempted to set boundaries I felt like a coward every time I didn't. But the truth is there is a time and place, and a priority. You can't do it all at once, and its rare you can successfully set a boundary in one try.

Also, trying to do it after you are completely emotionally drained from a long period of bad behavior might not be good timing. Or if there are others involved. For example, trying to enforce boundaries with my wife in the moment could sometimes result in harsh behavior towards my children. I had to consider them as a casualty to my "brave" boundary setting and realize I couldn't always do it right in the moment.

An (extreme) example of when I did set an effective boundary with my wife: she was cutting up all my clothes, stealing and hiding my bank card, and sometimes assaulting me. So I reported it to the police each time and then told her. Took care of most of those behaviors. Not necessarily recommending it but it all comes back to what you have to do to protect yourself. In your case, leaving the room if her words are abusive might be the only way.

~ROE

[Manifest32f]

Hi: I find all these suggestions very very helpful to use in my encounter with my udBPW adult daughter also and I want to thank you all for the same. I have recently started saying that I cannot really continue the conversation if there’s too much shouting and blaming and that I need timeout. Although I don’t have the ‘guts’ to say it everytime consistently, this seems to work. I need to practice more. You all seem to be doing so well and I really am happy to be here getting your guidance. Thanks very much.

[once removed]

theres not a lot of point in validating someone who is swinging at you.

think about it. if i punch you in the face, thats not the time to tell me you understand how i could feel that way, or ask me whats wrong. that time has passed.

your boundary is your definition of whats acceptable and unacceptable to you. she may appreciate that or not (i wouldnt count on it). what happens when something is unacceptable is up to you.

as a rule, you need thick skin in these relationships. thats not to say you tolerate disrespect. it is to say see it for what it is then act accordingly. if your three year old yells "i hate you", its unpleasant of course, but you see it for what it is, and you dont ask why your three year old hates you or what you can do to make it better or tell them their feelings are valid. your wife has a coping style and its kind of bullyish, and it works for her. she calls names, throws the rhetorical kitchen sink, you validate her, she says go to hell, you say if you continue to raise your voice this conversation needs to end, she says "okay cool".

rolling your eyes wouldnt be mature, or advisable (dont do it), but it would carry more weight.

Strength: It takes a great deal of strength and emotional stability to be in a BP relationship and not be emotionally injured by it.  A person in a weak emotional state, who feels wounded/abused, or depressed is likely to be consumed by the relationship

https://bpdfamily.com/content/what-does-it-take-be-relationship

bottom line: it sucks to have a loved one coming at you and calling you names. if it gets to you deep enough, and you show it, you only show that it works. you cant boundary your way through this. you can improve communication so that there are fewer examples of this kind of conflict. you can take a time out when it becomes destructive. in times of calm, when you speak together about your relationship, you can work to get on the same page and begin to nip name calming in the bud. but in the moment, dont send the message that name calling or bringing up the past get to you; youll get more of it. be cool and unphased. let it sail by you. be strong and mature and not reactionary. change your response, and the message will be loud and clear.