Approaching the crossroads, Part 2

[Ozzie101]

The first part of this thread can be found here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=331465.0;all

The other thread got too long and was locked.

On the issue of leaving the room and going to bed when he has one of his epic dysregulations late at night: When I tried to do that, it just triggered him further. One of his favorite topics is that he feels like I put everything and everyone ahead of him and his son: my family, my job, my choir, myself. When I try to use self-care, whether it's going to bed at a decent hour or mentioning trying therapy, he goes into a rant about my selfishness.

I can see that he's trying to make me like him. Last night he was trying to encourage me to every now and then get mad at my parents. Cuss them out. Stop talking to them for a year or six months. "Everyone does that. There's nothing wrong with it." I don't think "everyone" does do that (or maybe I'm naive) and I DO think there's something wrong with it -- at least in a case where I know they haven't done anything to deserve that type of treatment.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Cat Familiar]

This is a typical tactic of an abuser: separate the object of abuse from family, friends, activities, and make them think that they’re “selfish” for caring about anyone or anything but the abuser.

I speak from experience and you’ll find this written about in literature about controlling personalities.

[formflier]

 When I tried to do that, it just triggered him further.  

What's really happening is he is using more dysfunctional behavior to get you back in line.  And... .did it work?


He was the one that wanted his needs first... he wanted you awake... and listening to hours of blather.

Did he get what he wanted?

So... next time... .how do you think he is going to get what he wants?

It is critical... .CRITICAL... .that you exit these things... quickly.  What happens to a fire when you remove the fuel?

After a couple of times of him realizing that his crazy doesn't get him what he wants... .well... .he will likely try something else.

You are kinda lucky that we are catching this early.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

You haven’t mentioned physical abuse, but what he’s doing is potentially a prequel to that.

https://www.breakthesilencedv.org/isolation-and-domestic-violence/

[Ozzie101]

Yes, I guess I am lucky in that regard. These real dysregulations have only been going on for a few months.

I guess I just feel discouraged because my attempt to extricate myself from the situation didn't work. At first, I tried just not answering. That made him more insistent. I tried leaving the room. He followed and wouldn't let me shut him out (he's much bigger and stronger than I am).

I never really gave into him on things. And despite some serious provocation, I never lost my temper. As I said, he eventually calmed down -- though the issues remain.

Last night showed me that leaving the situation isn't at all easy.

As for separating me from family, friends, activities (I sense it coming with work), I do see that. He and I have actually had discussions before about abusive relationships, with him saying many times how he doesn't understand how someone could stay in a relationship like that. I've mentioned the "cutting off from friends and family" thing before and once when he was dysregulating, he called me on it. "I know what you're doing when you tell me that. You're trying to say I'm abusive or that's what I'm doing with your family. You just can't admit that it's their fault. That you're too tied to them and they're not perfect."

He'll never see what he's been doing to me and how it's wrong. All he can see are my faults. Yes, I've made mistakes. So have members of my family. I have at times been selfish or haven't been proactive enough in standing up for him or my stepson on issues I know are very sensitive for him. But I don't believe that justifies his actions. I find it hard to believe he will ever accept that.

I'm discouraged. Because I know that my family will continue to do (or not do) things that will upset him. It seems like sometimes he actually creates scenarios where he can become upset and victimized. He and I will never agree on how to handle that. So, this will either go on like it is forever or it will just get worse.

Or I will just have to leave. But I would need a plan in place first -- like finding an attorney.

Edited:
No, there hasn't been any physical abuse. He has gotten violent with inanimate objects but it's been a couple of months. I know this could be a prelude. The therapist I saw on a consult said as much. I do have a safe house to go to. My former boss and her husband have said they would take me in without hesitation. I wouldn't want to go to family -- at least not at first. They're too much a source of the problems and he would be able to find me. He doesn't know where my boss lives.

His talk last night about how I should take more time off work and if I get fired, so be it -- that reeks of an isolation attempt.

His insistence that I'm a bad stepmother fits in with things too.

Also, he's told me that he cheated on his first wife. The way he explained it made sense, but I'm really starting to see a lot of his stories and behaviors as a pattern.

[Cat Familiar]

Physically blocking you is domestic violence. You might consult with your local DV agency to learn strategies to prevent things from escalating. Also attorneys may offer a brief free consultation. It’s important to know your rights.

[Ozzie101]

I just don't know what to do. If I wait until a dysregulation, he'll stop me from leaving. If I do it when he's feeling fine, I could trigger him -- and, also, I'll probably feel foolish. "He's not doing anything to me. He's fine right now. What am I doing? I'm overreacting."

I've been reading up more on abuse and am starting to feel scared. But am I overreacting? It all feels so surreal.

One sister is a lawyer. I'm tempted to ask her for a recommendation for an attorney, so I can be prepared.

[Cat Familiar]

Keep reading. Knowledge is power.

I wish I knew then what I know now about DV. In my case, it started very slowly, with some isolating and dislike of some of my friends. As it progressed, I had to account for my whereabouts at all times and even, as I was leaving work, if I had a conversation in the parking lot with a coworker, I had to keep him apprised that I might be home ten minutes late.

The relationship destroyed my connection to my parents and I gave up many friendships to keep the peace. It was difficult for me to pursue any of my own interests, without him interfering.

The verbal insults and criticism came first. Then the physical violence.

If you read about these patterns, you'll be very surprised at the common threads.  https://www.thehotline.org

https://www.thehotline.org/healthy-relationships/relationship-spectrum/

[Ozzie101]

Thank you, Cat Familiar. I'm glad you're sharing your experience and wisdom, but also so sorry you had to experience it in the first place.

I'm hopeful that by noticing these things early on,  I can take steps to keep from going farther down the road.

I'm making an appointment with a DV specialist and I'm hoping she'll be able to advise me as well.

[Dry Bones]

Hi Ozzie101, I agree with those who are saying to look after your own safety first and foremost. One thing we know about people with BPD is that they are predictably unpredictable, so you want to have a plan in place for any dangerous escelation that might occur. You're in my thoughts.

On the subject of how your H talks about "everyone" cutting off family or telling them off, that sounds all too familiar. My father used to come over for a short visit once a week after church. My uBPDgf would tell me "nobody" sees their parents that often as an adult. Almost in the same breathe, she would complain that my mother doesn't visit her grandkids enough. People with BPD invent "facts" out of thin air to support whatever they are feeling at the current moment and there is often no consistent logic among them. Another "fact" I would often hear was when I was working my last job. I had a 45 minute commute each way and was told that "nobody" travels that far to work. It is hard to hold back when such blatant misinformation is cited as absolute truth, but we as partners must do our best to read between the lines and discern the emotions which lie beneath these statements.

[Cat Familiar]

I'm hopeful that by noticing these things early on,  I can take steps to keep from going farther down the road.

I'm making an appointment with a DV specialist and I'm hoping she'll be able to advise me as well.

Awesome, Ozzie!    If you can nip these patterns in the bud, they won’t have the opportunity to become entrenched habits for both of you!  

[Ozzie101]

On the subject of how your H talks about "everyone" cutting off family or telling them off, that sounds all too familiar. My father used to come over for a short visit once a week after church. My uBPDgf would tell me "nobody" sees their parents that often as an adult. Almost in the same breathe, she would complain that my mother doesn't visit her grandkids enough. People with BPD invent "facts" out of thin air to support whatever they are feeling at the current moment and there is often no consistent logic among them. Another "fact" I would often hear was when I was working my last job. I had a 45 minute commute each way and was told that "nobody" travels that far to work. It is hard to hold back when such blatant misinformation is cited as absolute truth, but we as partners must do our best to read between the lines and discern the emotions which lie beneath these statements.

Yep. Very familiar. Another thing: I call my father "daddy." I've never thought anything of it. Part of it is a Southern thing and another part is just a family thing. Both my parents refer to their now-deceased fathers that way. And where I grew up, you'd be hard-pressed to find someone who *didn't* call their father that. When he's lashing out at my family, though, he makes fun of me for it. Says no grown-up calls their father that. It's childish. It shows I'm too attached to my dad. It's just another sign that he must have molested me as a child.

I've thought that it could very well be some kind of insecurity and jealousy talking.

Also, I was there when my sisters' kids were born and remember their birthdays, etc. H has said he thinks that's just strange. In one dysregulation, he told me how pathetic it was that I was there for their births. That it's strange to care so much.

A while back, he got on to me for having a closer relationship with my sisters' kids than with my stepson. This was after we had been married for less than two weeks. I'd known those kids their whole lives. I'd known S for less than a year. When I walked into a room, the kids would run at me for hugs and kisses. S, at that time, didn't seem to care if I was there or not. So, what would a reasonable person expect?

Similarly, he lashes out at my step-mothering and will blast my sisters for their parenting (while he knows nothing about their parenting styles). My stepson ADORES H and prefers him to every other human. But I also know that H is insecure about his parenting and has, many times, said he wishes he hadn't had a child in the first place. He's not a kid person and is frequently frustrated with S for things that I know are just normal child development. I'm sure he feels a lot of guilt and conflicted emotions about that.

Anyway, S and I get along great. We're not cuddly and affectionate with each other but S has shown no sign he wants that. But we have good talks, bond over TV shows and S actually obeys me better than he does H. I'm way more patient (I'm the one who taught him to tie his shoes). So, maybe there's some insecurity there, too, that makes him attack me for not having a better relationship with S.

[formflier]

Y It shows I'm too attached to my dad. It's just another sign that he must have molested me as a child.
 

Hang on a minute.

Please clarify.  He has accused/suggested... intimated that your father molested you?

How often?  Was there ever any followup?


FF

[Ozzie101]

Yes. I mentioned it before but maybe it was another thread.

It's been a while since he brought it up. It came up the first time in a dysregulation and he's mentioned it a few other times since (once in a letter he wrote to me). Here's what he wrote:
"Again, I keep stressing some form of abuse happened on the XXX side of the family and I could be wrong, but there are just too many controlling, manipulative, secretive, non-emotion showing tendencies that point in that direction. Look it up! And no, I wouldn't necessarily expect you to remember if something happened either. People learn and are coached to block those memories."

There have been times he's said it was rape or molestation. Other times he's said "beaten." Sometimes it's my dad but other times he's opened it up and said it could have been my paternal grandfather (whom he never met). Both are/were very kind, caring, moral, respectable men who would never even consider harming another person. I don't even recall ever being spanked as a child. He insists that if I don't remember then I was probably brainwashed.

The first time he mentioned it, I was dumbfounded. It was one of the first clues to me that something was not quite right with him. He was so certain, rattling off symptoms of adult survivors of child abuse. If I hadn't been so secure in my memories and in who my father and grandfather are/were, I might have been swayed by it.

I wasn't very experienced in sex before we met. He's said that's not normal and if I wasn't doing it, it was a sign of something else. I have been secretive with him, but that's been a reaction to his rages and trying to avoid triggering him. And my whole family are fairly reserved. I've always been that way.

I argued back pretty strongly that first time. A couple of times after that, I just said "Not true." Since then, I've just met it with stony silence. Arguing does no good.

Anyway, he hasn't brought it up in a month or so.

[formflier]

So... to be clear.  You have a letter from him where he tells you to "go look it up"?

Has he ever given you ideas on what else he wants you to do about it?

So... look it up and then... .?  If you agree with him... then what?  (not saying you should agree with him... .just letting this run to logical conclusion.)

FF

[Ozzie101]

It's been a while. He seems to use it as a "See, this is unhealthy. You're too attached to your family. You should cut them off" kind of thing.

[formflier]

Ugg... .

https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

Can you read this a couple times and see if anything resonates.

I need to consider this for a bit... .but I can't imagine how you listening to any of this again would ever benefit you, your relationships, your husband... .

Ugg... .double uggg.

FF

[Ozzie101]

No, I agree. He hasn't brought it up in a while so maybe he's moved on -- or realized that talking about it gets him nowhere at all with me.

I was pretty strong in my reaction the first few times he mentioned it but he just seemed to take that as defensiveness on my part. One time I told him what he was suggesting was insulting and awful and malicious towards some very good people and I wasn't going to discuss it. Again, he saw that as my being brainwashed. That's when I stopped reacting.

I've read about boundaries and I've been working on that. So far, not really successfully. Any attempt I make (like above where I told him to knock it off) gets twisted around to fit his version. It's proof of my over-devotion to family, my job being more important, my lack of caring about his feelings, my selfishness. You name it.

[formflier]

I was pretty strong in my reaction the first few times he mentioned it but he just seemed to take that as defensiveness on my part. One time I told him what he was suggesting was insulting and awful and malicious towards some very good people and I wasn't going to discuss it. Again, he saw that as my being brainwashed. That's when I stopped reacting.
 

I suspect this is what he was looking for... .

I'm not saying he thought this through, but pwBPD do/say these things to get a reaction, which likely validates you are still attracted to them... care about them... .something like that.

Can you tell me again about the letter he sent.  Was it a letter, email or text?

FF

[Ozzie101]

It was a letter. He wrote it after a big dysregulation and after I'd gone to sleep, then put it with my purse so I'd see it and read it in the morning. In it, he laid out a lot of the problems and how he felt. He stresses how he feels my parents manipulate me, how I always side with my family, things they have done wrong (some of which I agree with him on -- we just differ on reactions) how things are causing him extra stress, etc. He hints around in there that if we can't fix things, we'd be better off ending the marriage, though that's not what he wants. This was about 2 months ago.

[formflier]

 
Do you still have the letter?

Have you scanned it and "saved it to the cloud"... .so it still exists if he tears it up or tosses it away?

FF

[Ozzie101]

I have it. It's locked in my desk at work -- along with copies of some financial papers and documents.

I have to add that a lot of it really does sound rational and reasonable. Someone reading it who didn't know the full story would probably think I was the unreasonable one. As I said, some of what he said I agree with. And I know I've made a lot of mistakes.

I know some people in relationships with pwBPD have experienced their pwBPD spreading lies about them or turning people against them. I don't know if H has spread lies, but he has told me that he's told people about my over-attachment to my family and how I "always" side with them. He says they all agree that that's just weird and wrong and I shouldn't act that way. Frustrating for me when I know that his view is skewed and these people don't know the whole story.

[formflier]

 
Please make sure you have digital backups of important documents.  Better to have them and never need them... .than... .well you know.

I used google docs but there are many similar things.

I think I'm done pestering you with questions for the moment.  I want to give others a chance to weigh in and I need to consider how best to advise on this shocking thing he raised with you.

FF

[Ozzie101]

I'll do that, formflier. I really appreciate your questions and advice. It helps me think things through.

[Harri]

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