Took a video of her behavior this morning - 3

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

This is not my understanding of "don't walk on eggshells". My understanding of the phrase is that we shouldn't feel that we can't live our own lives, express our own opinions, or feel our own feelings just because of how our pwBPD might respond to that. To me, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't consider how our behaviour towards them may be interpreted and received by them. I think that, in all relationships, whether BPD is involved or not, we very much do need to consider our partner's feelings about how we behave towards them - showing sensitivity and consideration towards our partners and respecting their privacy (without having to keep quiet about abuse) is a very different thing to walking on eggshells.

I agree, with one caveat.  Nobody's privacy needs to be respected in terms of shielding the abuse they perpetrate on others.  FWIW, this incident happened in our driveway and garage (w/ the door open) while the neighbors were walking their kids to the bus stop near our house.  It wasn't that private to begin with.

I know she wouldn't see it that way, and I understand how she would view this as a betrayal from her perspective.  But think about this part - why did she react so angrily to the video?  She knew somewhere inside that her behavior is unacceptable and didn't want others to see it.  I discussed this with both my sisters.  We all agreed that if someone took a video of us loading the kids, we wouldn't get mad and it would be more like "what are you doing, put the phone down and help me get the kids loaded."  No shouting, no physical contact, no threats.

[defogging]

This is not my understanding of "don't walk on eggshells". My understanding of the phrase is that we shouldn't feel that we can't live our own lives, express our own opinions, or feel our own feelings just because of how our pwBPD might respond to that. To me, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't consider how our behaviour towards them may be interpreted and received by them. I think that, in all relationships, whether BPD is involved or not, we very much do need to consider our partner's feelings about how we behave towards them - showing sensitivity and consideration towards our partners and respecting their privacy (without having to keep quiet about abuse) is a very different thing to walking on eggshells.

I agree, with one caveat.  Nobody's privacy needs to be respected in terms of shielding the abuse they perpetrate on others.  FWIW, this incident happened in our driveway and garage (w/ the door open) while the neighbors were walking their kids to the bus stop near our house.  It wasn't that private to begin with.

I know she wouldn't see it that way, and I understand how she would view this as a betrayal from her perspective.  But think about this part - why did she react so angrily to the video?  She knew somewhere inside that her behavior is unacceptable and didn't want others to see it.  I discussed this with both my sisters.  We all agreed that if someone took a video of us loading the kids, we wouldn't get mad and it would be more like "what are you doing, put the phone down and help me get the kids loaded."  No shouting, no physical contact, no threats.

[Notwendy]

Why did she react so angrily to the video?

Great question, and I will attempt to answer it.

First though, I don't blame you for putting this into the light, not hiding it. My post is an illustration of dealing with the two possible decisions- expose or take the high road. Each has a price. We have to weigh the costs. Like you, I was completely taken by surprise by the extent of my BPDmom's smear campaign following my discussion with my father's health care team. IMHO - there are times where we act to protect those who are not in a position to protect themselves- children and the elderly. You stepped up for your kid's benefits- but there is also a cost. There is also a cost to keeping silent.

It hurt my feelings that my mother's FOO believes what she says about me, but that's the extent of it. In the case of possible child custody, I would go all out to protect the children.

So why did your wife get angry? I mentioned before- it is fear, fear of discovery. I think pwBPD keep a social mask on out of fear others will discover their true selves and sadly, they have a deep sense of shame about who they are. They let the mask down with the people who are closest to them, but I think they also expect them to collude with them on presenting their best side in public. To your wife, it was a betrayal and also a shame trigger.

[defogging]

  Notwendy

Yep, my children are the real issue here and if I need suffer more at the hands of my uBPDw I don't care.  It'll be worth it if they end up okay.

Your response about why she got angry makes total sense.  I guess that's what makes this illness so bizarre and difficult to deal with.  They know something isn't right but absolutely cannot get help for it.

BTW - Kudos to you for stepping up to protect your dad.

[Bnonymous]

Thanks for giving more information, defogging. You really aren't required to defend or justify your actions - and I'm sorry if I have worded my posts in such a way that you felt like you were.

I can now do a Gestalt duck-rabbit switch here and see what you guys are seeing and how different it is to what I am seeing.

You guys are seeing that you videoed her abusive behaviour and that her shame was triggered by this behaviour being exposed - is that correct?

I am seeing something completely different.

When my pwBPD is angry, he is in a place of extreme fear. He is extremely vulnerable at this time. He regresses to childhood. His limbs move live those of a toddler. His mouth turns down like that of a toddler. He kind of is a toddler in those moments.

If I videoed him then, it's not his abuse that I would be exposing - it's his inner child, the weakness, terror, and vulnerability of that child, and the physical ways it manifests. If I did this and it triggered toxic shame in him, it wouldn't be because his abusive ways were being brought into the light - it would be because his inner child was being exposed. It would be like tearing his emotional skin off.

I have been looking at it that way. I have been imagining your wife feeling like her most profound terror and vulnerability is being paraded in public.

I get that this isn't what the rest of you are seeing.

I may be right. You may be right. Chances are that we are both right.

I also do not mean to detract from the fact that your wife is not a child; it's your children who are really children and really vulnerable. Of course it's them you have to protect. And of course any terror or vulnerability your wife felt does not in any way excuse behaving abusively towards them or in front of them. I am definitely not saying that your wife's inner child should take priority over your actual children - of course it shouldn't.

I am saying that telling people merely describes what is happening. Videoing her shows it (with every facial expression and details of posture that belong to an earlier stage of her life). This is why I think she is likely to feel shamed and violated, not because of the exposure of her abusive behaviour.

[Bnonymous]

Hi again, defogging.

I'm sorry to double-post. I've been thinking more about your original post.

What if your wife is genuinely scared of getting the kids ready and out for school? What if she is feeling something like "We're not going to make it on time. We're not going to make it. I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do. We're going to be late and everyone is going to see that I'm a useless mother and a useless person who can't even get their own kids to school on time. I'm useless, useless, useless! I can't do this. I don't know how to do this!" and feeling truly overwhelmed and helpless?

How would you handle it if that were the case? Are there ways you could take some of the pressure off her? Are the ways you could reassure your wife that a/ she's got this, and b/ everyone is late from time to time and it doesn't mean they're failures?

Is it worth trying to approach it as though she's feeling this way and see how that goes? If you try it and don't see any benefit after a while, then it might not be what's going on. But I would think it is worth a shot.

(Incidentally, this is what I mean by "shame" - not the guilt or embarrassment we nons might feel, but something much more powerful and pervasive:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/shame-powerful-painful-and-potentially-dangerous-emotion )

[defogging]

  Bnonymous

No worries, I didn't take anything you said personally.

It's clear from your post that your pwBPD acts much different than mine.  My uBPDw's main tactic is intimidation and bullying.  No matter how small the issue, you'd better agree with her or there is hell to pay.  You don't get a voice, she decides and tells you how things will be.  I'm the only person that stands up to her, I have to or else I'm a doormat.  Her FOO is very timid around her and let her rule the roost.  I'm painted black because I don't let her get away with it.  I can't, otherwise it teaches the kids to be afraid of her.

What people don't see in my house is her using these tactics on the kids.  They don't see D5 crying when mom berates her about piano practice.  They don't see the threats mom makes to the kids when they aren't doing the activity she wants them to be doing, it switches on a dime without rhyme or reason.  They don't see our kids' creativity being stifled because mom needs them to be "the best" at things that mom has chosen for them, without their input.  I see the frustration and confusion they have, and try to stand up for them as much as possible without causing uBPDw to completely dysregulate.

The video was taken when she was barking orders and intimidating us.  It wasn't taken during a complete meltdown when she is very vulnerable and regressing to childhood.  I've seen those moments too and wouldn't feel the need to share them, it's more about helping her calm down at that point.

So yes, when someone is bullying the kids I don't feel much empathy for them and it will be exposed if need be.

What if your wife is genuinely scared of getting the kids ready and out for school? What if she is feeling something like "We're not going to make it on time. We're not going to make it. I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do. We're going to be late and everyone is going to see that I'm a useless mother and a useless person who can't even get their own kids to school on time. I'm useless, useless, useless! I can't do this. I don't know how to do this!" and feeling truly overwhelmed and helpless?

How would you handle it if that were the case? Are there ways you could take some of the pressure off her? Are the ways you could reassure your wife that a/ she's got this, and b/ everyone is late from time to time and it doesn't mean they're failures?

Is it worth trying to approach it as though she's feeling this way and see how that goes? If you try it and don't see any benefit after a while, then it might not be what's going on. But I would think it is worth a shot.

(Incidentally, this is what I mean by "shame" - not the guilt or embarrassment we nons might feel, but something much more powerful and pervasive:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/shame-powerful-painful-and-potentially-dangerous-emotion )

I understand what you're saying, and she may very well feel that way.

I've tried handling the weekday mornings in a variety of ways:  
 - Helping her get lunches packed
 - Making breakfast for everyone
 - Loading all their backpacks/coats in the car
 - Helping the kids get strapped in
 - Waking the kids up 15 minutes earlier so their brains can wake up and they move faster
 - Offering to take the kids myself
 - Scrape snow off the windshield and start her car

Short of doing everything myself, I'm out of ideas.  She insists on waking them up 5 minutes before departing because "they need sleep".  Yes, they do, but we can also put them to bed 15 minutes earlier.  No matter how I help in the morning it's never right.  If I wake them up earlier, I get yelled at.  If I do practically everything - still angry with me and I'm told my actions aren't helpful.

Her motivations to be on time extend beyond me.  D8 is sick and tired of being late for school and complains about having to check in at the front office.  We've received emails from the school about the kids being on time.  I'm not the single point of harassment.  I don't know how to have compassion for her behavior if she's truly afraid like you wrote.  My thought is "don't be mad at me, be mad at the clock".  That's life and she needs to make a change to be on time.  She's capable of it, I've seen her do it before.

I think the best I can do is get them loaded so she doesn't accidentally run somebody over in her anger, and then let her deal with the consequences of being late.  (Yes, that's a real concern - in a fury she backs out of the driveway without looking, then squeals the tires heading down the street.  I have serious concerns she'll run over a neighbor's kid)

I'm pretty sure this is more about punishing me and proving we need to move.  She wants to move into the neighborhood where the kids attend school, I've heard many times that life is miserable here and it would be perfect there.  (Black and white thinking, anyone?)  I don't like that neighborhood because the houses are much smaller, but I'm willing to move somewhere closer that has bigger houses.  She won't listen to my ideas though.  She constantly complains about traffic being too bad so she can't make it on time, as well as other nonsensical reasons why we have to move.  That's also what the financial complaints are about.  She claims we can't afford this house, but blows our money every pay period on her CC.  The funny part?  The neighborhood she wants to move to is just as expensive as this one... .

[Notwendy]

Can you take them to school?

I'm thinking about the safety issue here- a dysregulated person rushing in the car ( due to lateness ).

I know it isn't an even division of labor in the household, but if the goal is the kids' welfare and their safety, then the division is skewed ( and already skewed).

The time management issues to me seems to be a lack of executive function, inability to plan out a several step task and execute it.

[defogging]

Can you take them to school?

I'm thinking about the safety issue here- a dysregulated person rushing in the car ( due to lateness ).

I know it isn't an even division of labor in the household, but if the goal is the kids' welfare and their safety, then the division is skewed ( and already skewed).

The time management issues to me seems to be a lack of executive function, inability to plan out a several step task and execute it.

I've offered and would be happy to take them, she doesn't accept that.  Wants the kids with her a lot.  I think it would also eliminate her reason for complaining about the commute if I'm handling it and there's no drama.  She won't accept easy solutions to make life work better.

When I take the kids it works great, they get up on time, carry their own stuff to the car, everyone is happy except uBPDw.  I feel bad for uBPDw because on the rare occasion that I need to take the kids (she has a meeting or something) they shout "yay!" when they find out I'm taking them.  They enjoy going with dad, I imagine because it is much more relaxed.

Agreed, it's a safety issue.  That's why I figure the best I can do is help in the morning and try to keep her calm.  I feel helpless, like I'm waiting for something crazy to happen that brings her behavior into the light.  Hopefully without injuring anyone.  Also another reason I video'd her in the morning.  If she hits one of the neighbors then I have evidence of her behavior to protect myself.

Your thought on executive function and time management makes sense.  She has a long standing record of being late.  That ties into the moving issue.  She keeps demanding we move but seems unable to think through the process.  Select/eliminate neighborhoods and schools, figure out what we want in a house, etc.  Can't do that, just points to a house that came on the market and shouts that we need to buy it immediately.  I can lay it all out for her and do the research, but I haven't done anything regarding the move because I don't want to solve her imaginary problem for her.  The reality is we don't need to move.  It would only save her 10-15 minutes on the commute, and I know she'd still be late everywhere even if she lived closer.  Having a 20 minute commute instead of 30 minutes doesn't solve her problems.

[Bnonymous]

Hi defogging,

I think notwendy is likely right that there are executive function issues at play here.

Unfortunately, when it comes to offering her help, you are probably damned if you do, damned if you don't. Instead of thinking "He can see that I'm stressed and wants to lighten the load for me - I feel cared about and supported" (like most people would), she is probably instead thinking something like "Even he thinks I'm useless and incompetent and can't manage simple things for myself!"

I'd focus less on helping her do it and more on helping her to feel that she is capable of doing it: reassurance that she's got this, validation of how it's hard for everyone, lots of positive reinforcement for every small success etc.

Though, as notwendy says, there is a safety issue to consider with her driving. when dysregulated and rushing.

I think, if you can work on the dysregulation, that might take care of the rest.

[Notwendy]

I think executive function is in part what makes a person "high functioning" BPD and "low functioning" BPD. In the school years, the terms seem to apply to IQ- someone who has significantly less than an average IQ is "low functioning" . I don't think this applies to BPD. There are people who have BPD and very high intelligence but don't seem to be able to accomplish much in the way of work, daily tasks such as childcare, and others with BPD are able to manage jobs, tasks, but not their most intimate relationships.

I am not a professional but these are my own observations. I deal with some behaviors in my own marriage that fit the BPD spectrum but they are different from what I observed with my parents. My mother is very intelligent, has a college degree, but doesn't seem to be able to carry out many household tasks. She's almost always late.

Bnonymous brought up fears. My mother doesn't cook, but when she wants to try, she needs someone there to coach her. She's constantly asking " is this pan OK?" "did I add enough salt?" then "are you sure I added enough salt?". Then once it is done" does it taste ok" "I didn't add enough salt". It seems she needs constant reassurance that she is doing the job OK. She also tries to avoid tasks and get us to do things for her. If she signed up to bake something for school- she'd have me do it. She had to make a flyer for a group event and got my sibling to do it for her. I think she is capable but something-her own inner dialogue seems to be a stumbling block for her.

You are correct, moving won't solve this issue but to save face, there has to be a reason other than her own emotions and for now it is the house. I think those are guarded carefully. This is why I think the video had such an impact. I think those self critical thoughts are terrifying and they don't want them to be exposed. With my H, I think he is also very self critical and some of our issues come from when these feelings are triggered by me, sometimes accidentally.

[Red5]

defogger wrote... ."She insists on waking them up 5 minutes before departing because "they need sleep". 

You know, our Drill Instructors down on Parris Island used to wake us up five minutes before we needed to be marched off to morning chow too... .

An hour prior would be much better imho... .
*wake them up with a hug and a kiss,
*off to do the morning potty constitutions... .and wash up, brush teeth, etc'
*get dressed for school, a little morning cleanup, make their beds, put their pj's away etc,
*maybe some early morning quality family time at the breakfast table, news - weather, maybe some Sesame Street  and what do you think you'll learn at school today?
*some more hugs and kisses, and I love you's... then off to school!

... .five minutes... .that's not cool ; (

"They need to sleep", comes on the 'back-end", .as said up above, put them to bed earlier...

Just my .02 cents (random thoughts) Man,

... .hang in there defogger, keep posting,

Red5

[Skip]

Hi d.fogging!

This is a spirited (and good) conversation. A quick comment before I start. We are all in this together. While it is the culture here to critique each others action, the goal is for us all to learn how to be most effective at what we want to accomplish going forward. It is not judgement or criticism of what you (or anyone) has done.

In reading through your comments, a couple really stood out to me.

This battle I engaged in yesterday is primarily logistical.  I think it's highly likely that a bitter divorce is in my future with mega parental alienation.  With the smear campaigns and her convincing nature, I firmly believe I will need evidence of her behavior to get outside folks (courts, psychologists) to believe me.  Again, it's about the kids. ~defogging

If you're done and in the mode of building a custody case, schedule a consult with a lawyer and custody evaluator... .don't wing it. You might want to post on our "Law" board, too. You live in a "single consent state". You can place remote cameras and quietly and peacefully record hundreds of hours of material, and make  a greatest hits video, without having an extreme high conflict event with your wife in front of the children. Two things to consider. 1) The bar for a video to be useful is pretty high. You want to know what that is. A judge isn't going to sit and watch 3 hours of bickering or care. 2) With the way this went down, you may have created more evidence for her than yourself.  Be smart. There are far better ways to build a case going forward.

The one point where I will disagree with you is the notion that I'm somehow obligated to keep her abuse private.  I refuse to sit idly while I'm being character assassinated.~defogging

Visibility is good. Agreed. Experts say, "the best disinfectant for abuse is daylight". So what does that generally mean? Experts (and most if us here) would encourage anyone in an abusive situation to try to connect with your wife and agree to go to enlist trusted family members as accountability partners as a first step. The model is something like this. The couple agrees that they are not treating each other well and need to do better (this is not too hard to sell). You agree if there is another "A" level fight, you will get outside help. When it happens you pick someone you both trust.If problems persist, you systematically expand outward like the layers of an onion. This takes some finessing. It takes some strategic pushing of the envelope. It's important that you can reasonably make the case that you are trying to make things better for the family and you are will to make whatever changes you need to make, too. If your motivation are pure, you can usually push the envelope and things will recover. If things break down, all of this will be in your favor before a court. Just don't ambush your partner, then it is all out war, the courts will see it as high conflict (you don't want that tag in a custody case), and the kids will get mauled in the process.

I think the most regretted thing members on "Conflicted" do is hope things will eventually get better even though they are co-conspirators in destructive and damaging fights. I've seen so many surprised and saddened when the family finally self-destructed and they found themselves on the receiving end of a scorched earth war.

My general advice is that if you have __ years of parenting ahead of you, whether you stay together or divorce, turn down the heat. This is not a fight where there is a winner and loser - the courts rarely see it that way -  its typically ends up as two losers.

Skip

[defogging]

... .five minutes ... .that's not cool ; (

"They need to sleep", comes on the 'back-end", ... .as said up above, put them to bed earlier...
Red5

I agree 100% Red5, but don't you go inserting logic into this!  

It's bewildering.  uBPDw has trouble getting them to bed, I can hear her debating with the kids at 9:00 about how they need to go to sleep NOW, turn the lights out, etc.  My help is not welcomed when this is going on.  Their bed time is supposed to be 8:30.  Now for the flip side: on the nights she's at a meeting I have them in bed by 8:30 (may slip to 8:40 at times tbh) I get scolded the next morning if they seem tired, because they "needed to be in bed early last night".  You just can't win.

Hi defogging,

I think notwendy is likely right that there are executive function issues at play here.

Unfortunately, when it comes to offering her help, you are probably damned if you do, damned if you don't. Instead of thinking "He can see that I'm stressed and wants to lighten the load for me - I feel cared about and supported" (like most people would), she is probably instead thinking something like "Even he thinks I'm useless and incompetent and can't manage simple things for myself!"

I'd focus less on helping her do it and more on helping her to feel that she is capable of doing it: reassurance that she's got this, validation of how it's hard for everyone, lots of positive reinforcement for every small success etc.

Though, as notwendy says, there is a safety issue to consider with her driving. when dysregulated and rushing.

I think, if you can work on the dysregulation, that might take care of the rest.

I think you and Notwendy are hitting the mark here.  I will adjust my responses and see if positive reinforcement helps the situation.

She emailed me last night after I was in bed and told me not to get her any Christmas presents this year, which was sad to me.  I responded this morning by telling her how much we appreciate everything she does for our family, she deserves presents, and we'd like to show her our appreciation.  Hopefully little things like that can help.

[Red5]

She emailed me last night after I was in bed and told me not to get her any Christmas presents this year, .

If I had a green back dollar for every time uBPDw told me this SAME line... .I'd have about ten bucks, maybe eleven... .we've been together for almost twelve years, albeit now separated.

... .my uBPDw never emailed me, or texted me when we were in the house together, usually she would just come into the office (dog house), where I was sleeping, because she had kicked me out of the 'marriage bed'... .and do the BPD rage thing... .after she turned the light on... .'now all ancient history"... .

However, I do have quite a collection now of "mean spirited angry notes", and a few "sternly worded letters" she has written me over the years... .yeah, I kept them.

Hang in there Brother... .

[Skip]

She emailed me last night after I was in bed and told me not to get her any Christmas presents this year, which was sad to me.  I responded this morning by telling her how much we appreciate everything she does for our family, she deserves presents, and we'd like to show her our appreciation.  Hopefully little things like that can help.

I'm sorry there is sadness in your home and in your heart right before the holidays. It was on hellacious domestic fight.

Wishing peace for you and your family.

[defogging]

  Skip - Thanks for the advice, I will take it to heart.  I have turned down the heat and am letting her burn her own angry fire out these last few days.  Things are slowly improving.

I am mentally done with her, it's been too many accusations, battles, crises, etc. over the last four years.  Just burned out at this point and it's hard to care about the relationship anymore.

That said, I'm not interested in divorcing her now because of the kids and the hell storm that would follow.  If she divorced me (which I don't think she'll do) I would be just fine with that, but I'm pretty sure it would still be ugly.  They're too young to go through that.

I researched and found that I'm in a single consent state as well, so I am going to continue to gather evidence.  It will be much more subtle like covert audio recording though.  One I thought of last night - she told BIL that she's afraid to leave the kids with me, painting the picture that I'm not reliable (which is b.s. she does that whenever it's convenient).  So, S3 and I went to the store last night and I took a couple of pictures of him there, smiling.  

I'm not interested in a scorched earth battle to get full custody, I just don't want her to file and go on the attack - resulting in me getting separated from the kids while she moves another guy in and tells them that's their dad, or do some other crazy thing.  So, I do feel the need to create evidence to make a solid case against potential accusations.

I think you're correct in that I need to reach out to an attorney and get advice.

[Skip]

I am mentally done with her, it's been too many accusations, battles, crises, etc. over the last four years.  Just burned out at this point and it's hard to care about the relationship anymore. That said, I'm not interested in divorcing her... .

I'm not interested in a scorched earth battle to get full custody, I just don't want her to file and go on the attack - resulting in me getting separated from the kids while she moves another guy in and tells them that's their dad, or do some other crazy thing.  So, I do feel the need to create evidence to make a solid case against potential accusations.

Holding out in a loveless marriage for a couple of years is doable. Your  kids are 3-9 years old - how long do you think you two can realistically hold out in the current state?

pwBPD generally have diminished executive function and are impulsive - these boards are replete with members who thought the damaged status quo was stable - and were surprised/shocked when their partners left.

Here is a recent one. Young child. Apparently stable, but loveless. Treading water.  Completely unexpected: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=323828.0 There are links in the signature to show the progression of events.

[defogging]

  Skip

Point taken, she could always do something impulsive.  My hunch based on her behavior and communication with me is that she doesn't want to divorce.  She really projects the happy family image outside of our house.  But you never know.  

If she does something like that it's "game on" with lawyers I guess.  For some reason I don't feel afraid of that, as I suspect her inconsistent stories would be her downfall in the end, and she wouldn't be able to prove I'm as bad as she says I am.  Maybe I'm naive, who knows?  I'm sure it would be crazy based on what she's telling my family about me.

I don't know how long the marriage will last, it's certainly not going the distance though.  We do have some good times, things are obviously rough since Thursday, and December is crazy-month anyways with the holidays.  So it's tough to gauge right now.  I ask myself a lot "how much longer can I take this?" and then remember the kiddos need me right now.  

[Skip]

If she does something like that it's "game on" with lawyers I guess.  For some reason I don't feel afraid of that, as I suspect her inconsistent stories would be her downfall in the end, and she wouldn't be able to prove I'm as bad as she says I am.  Maybe I'm naive, who knows? 

Everyone involved in the court system knows.    Family court is very formula. Look into this, d.fogging. Don't get the surprise of your life. Ask around for someone in your circles that volunteers as a monitor for supervised visitation. They know the reality.

If this goes to "game on",  the court is not going to give you full physical custody - you'll be fighting to convince the court that you should have more than 35%. In your state, fathers almost always get less than 50%. What is the determining factor?  One of the main factors will be how much conflict exists between the parents - if is perceived as a lot, you will likely get less time  even if she is the problem. Courts rule in favor of the kids and are favorable to mothers.

And after the legal decision is made, you could find yourself in a battle to get your allotted time because your wife is working the kids - you said she already does this. Crying when they leave to go to your place. Scheduling fun events on your weekend so that you can be the bad guy and cancel them.  Etcetera.

I'm not suggesting any plan of action for you - I'm just saying that there is no simple exit door you can walk out of with the kids. You can't "power out if this".

There are many here who have been down this road that help you explore the tradeoffs of raising the kids in a difficult marriage vs raising them outside of a difficult marriage. That's one the main reasons we have this board.

[defogging]

  Skip

I think we're thinking along different lines, Skip.  My main objective is to have the kids grow up healthy, and not lose my relationship with them due to any accusations she makes.  I've heard a lot of threats from her and I'm sure her goal would be to remove me from their lives in the event of a divorce.  

My response wasn't meant to imply that I think I could get an aggressive lawyer and take them away from her 100%.  I don't know the system but I wasn't born yesterday.  By "game on" I meant we would be speaking through  lawyers and the time for trying to work it out between ourselves would unfortunately have to be over.

[Notwendy]

Is there any way you can reduce the impact of the issues on the kids? With my own marriage, our issues are different due to traditional roles. I was the one with the kids most of the time. I think it is different when the father is both chief wage earner and also needs to take on child care. It doesn't seem fair and I agree with that,  but it is probably better for the kids.

I think it can be walking a double edge sword when helping out. Helping out is both needed and also invalidating. I think your wife knows she isn't doing the best job and when you step in to help- it in a way validates that for her - while also being necessary to get the kids to school on time.

I don't condone your wife's behavior- and I understand you feeling emotionally spent with her but if you are choosing to live together and raise kids together, it could help to try to reduce the conflict in your home. I don't think doing everything for her is the solution. She would have no sense of accomplishment if you did. Perhaps there is a way to leave other tasks to her while you drive the kids to school.

The "don't buy me a present" comment comes from her feeling bad- about herself and also about the relationship. But I also agree with Red- even if she said this- she would be really hurt if you didn't give her a Christmas present. That would be an unpleasant Christmas memory for a long time. You don't have to break the bank, but if there is something she wants that is affordable, I think it's best to get it for her.

[defogging]

Is there any way you can reduce the impact of the issues on the kids?

I think it can be walking a double edge sword when helping out.

Perhaps there is a way to leave other tasks to her while you drive the kids to school.

... .she would be really hurt if you didn't give her a Christmas present.

That's what I try to do, reduce the impact on the kids.  It's walking a very fine line, though.  Feels like the push-pull dynamic.  Step 1 - She screams for help, I help.  If I don't help I'm the bad guy.  Step 2 - The next minute she pushes the help away, I back off.  If I try to help, I'm not allowing her to do it her way. 

You know how it is, as soon as you figure out how to do something "right" the game changes so they can revert to victim-hood.

Interesting thought that helping out can be invalidating.  Maybe I can concentrate more on reinforcing that I think she's doing a good job, that could reduce her intensity level around the house.

She rejects the idea of me taking the kids to school, unless she has to let me due to a schedule conflict.  She seems to need the kids with her the majority of the time.  I think it's a control thing.  She gets to monitor what they do, and control the narrative about dad.  Probably about the school mom image too, she can be the one seen dropping them off, involved in the PTO, etc.

Re: Christmas - She's still getting Christmas presents, of course.   

[Enabler]

Hey Defogging,

I totally get your frustrations. Reading Skips points I believe he knows EXACTLY where you are coming from, even though you may not yet be on the same page as him. He's seen the same cycle repeat itself multiple times... .myself included... .and that isn't AT ALL intended to be patronizing in the slightest, this stuff just plays out in the same old ways time and time again.

Regarding the game (Karpman Triangle) you seem to get embroiled in with your wife and the school run (the main example although I am very very very sure the same game gets played out via many different 'things' in the daily running of a home... .bathtime, bedtime, cooking, cleaning, washing, packing for holidays, family events... .driving... .gardening... .ANYTHING). Here's a good link called 3 faces of a victim, it's an excellent analysis of how we enter 'the game' and participate in 'the game'. https://www.lynneforrest.com/articles/2008/06/the-faces-of-victim/  . You are trying to change the way you enter, don't enter the game... .but somehow you're still in the game. For example she yells for help, you rescue... .you are starting gate rescuer (like me), yet you exit as perpetrator (like me). Staying out of the game feels almost impossible. The pressure to dance is off the clocks... .BUT YOU HAVE TO STAY OUT. The game almost ends up occurring on the sidelines and rather than you rescuing you're immediately shifted to perpetrator. I believe Formflier put it nicely when he said his T was trying to train him to be comfortable with people being angry, and be comfortable with people being angry with him.

I believe that I have managed to eliminate 95% of the my game participation just by being more aware when I enter the triangle and taking evasive action. The remaining 5% are times when I have lost control of my emotions... .and I hold myself 100% responsible for those times.

Enabler 

[Red5]

(Enabler Quotes

... .the same cycle repeats itself multiple times... .myself included... .and that isn't AT ALL intended to be patronizing in the slightest, this stuff just plays out in the same old ways time and time again.

... .yes it does,

... .the same game gets played out via many different 'things' in the daily running of a home... .bathtime, bedtime, cooking, cleaning, washing, packing for holidays, family events... .driving... .gardening... .ANYTHING).

... .again, & yes; plays out in the same old ways time and time again'

"You are trying to change the way you enter, don't enter the game... .but somehow you're still in the game. For example she yells for help, you rescue... .you are starting gate rescuer (like me), yet you exit as perpetrator (like me). Staying out of the game feels almost impossible. The pressure to dance is off the clocks... .BUT YOU HAVE TO STAY OUT."

... .I've experienced this time and time again... ."you need to help me Red" (she says), then when I'm helping... .she says I'm not helping according to the way she wants it done (I'm not doing it right?, really... .what the heck)... .then I say, "just let me do it ok, why don't you go relax"... .nope! (she blows up)... .I wrote it all off to "created drama"... .for the sake of _____ (empty hole, bucket with a hole in it etc etc' "victimhood / continuous")... .

I noted time after time after time... .if I "attempted to remove" the stressor, the trigger, to get her to just go and relax... .uh' NO!... .never worked, only made things much worse... then I started to just ignore her, also the "wrong thing to do"... .a 'catch22'... .well documented by me (journal)... .years and years of 'source data'... .that cant be ignored... .

I believe Formflier put it nicely when he said his T was trying to train him to be comfortable with people being angry, and be comfortable with people being angry with him.

I remember that, .and I also remember "giving that a try"... .it was... ."interesting",

I believe that I have managed to eliminate 95% of the my game participation just by being more aware when I enter the triangle and taking evasive action. The remaining 5% are times when I have lost control of my emotions... .and I hold myself 100% responsible for those times.

... .I'm also a .5%'er... .where did I read it or hear it... .you (Non) are only responsible for .50% of the relationship, and you can never 'control' the entire .100% of the relationship... .

But as Enabler wrote above, even now, I am still holding myself .100% accountable... .'caretaker'... .'rescuer'... .'enabler'... .for the recent crash of my own relationship... .there is a proper 'term' for this... .self blaming'... .

You are in the midst of all of this defogger, keep your wits about you... .think 'big picture'... .long term, like ancient Chinese military tactics (there is a reason the Chinese are still around!)... .ie' lose today, give up some dirt, "give up a little"... .in order to win back a littlie tomorrow, .or a little more next year, or even more five years downrange... .

Being a Daddy is the biggest responsibility in the universe, .your children need you defogger, you have a huge responsibility there, not only in regards to your wife, but those little ones as well... .I have my own story about that... .I know you are having a lot of problems with your wife (understatement), but as the other's said above, try your best to "dial it down'... .I remember doing that myself, even in the 'face of' the 'storm'... .in my first marriage, .not easy, or for the 'faint of heart'... .but we do the best we can, .for our children.

... .I've written about my own story, at 'nasium'... .ie' I stayed in my first marriage for my kids... .it was the toughest thing I've ever experienced or endured in my life... .almost 'did me in'... .but in retrospect, I'm happy that I stuck it out, the last eleven years of the total twenty-one were 'not fun' to say the least... .the term 'emotional warfare' comes to mind... .the marriage did eventually end, but the kids turned out alright, and I was even a single Dad for about five years after the demise of the marriage... .a long story Man,

Hang in there Brother !

Red5