Which end is up, again?

[Ozzie101]

For those who've read my other threads, you know my uBPDh has several triggers -- #1 being my family. We hosted a big family Christmas gathering at our house on Saturday. Things went well. I could tell he was stressed and miserable, but nothing really upsetting or problematic happened. It's a large group and he's an introvert so the chaos really gets to him. Anyway, it didn't go on and on into the night thanks to some wintry weather moving in. The evening ended well, with us watching a movie and relaxing. The next couple of days (one of which was our anniversary) went well. But, inside, I just sensed a dysregulation was coming.

I was right.

Yesterday, I could tell he was getting himself into a worked-up place. He had a couple of work meetings today that involved people who have been triggers for him lately. Then, once home, he decided to call his [adopted] mom. That often gets him even further on the path. He asked me if I thought he should call her and I told him if he was feeling moody that, no, he shouldn't. He assured me he was fine.

So, later, he starts getting super-frustrated because he was looking for a flight for a trip he's taking to stay with his [biological] parents for a few days (he adores them so none of the baggage and passive-aggressive tendencies of his mother). The site was frustrating him. He was getting all worked up about the timing of a couple of flights and the timing his parents suggested, partnered with getting his son to school that morning. "See? This is why this town stinks. Our airport is awful. We don't get any good flights (not entirely untrue). This is why I hate this state." I pointed out that there was one flight that, time-wise, worked out perfectly. He kind of blinked and calmed down.

Then it happened. He was texting with his parents about that trip and then they made a suggestion about the other trip we have coming up to see them. He and I are going out of town Christmas week. We get back that Saturday after, S8 comes back to our house on Sunday and then we drive up to see H's bio family for a few days for New Year's. He agreed to all this with them without telling me first or asking me if I could make it work. Told me about it in front of friends on a night he was already getting into "the zone." I didn't call him on it. Well, after being out for a full week and with a few people already taking off New Year's Eve, I really feel like I need to be at work. Also, we have to get pre-approved for Nov-Dec vacation time and since this was a much later decision, I was very late in claiming the day. I'm a writer/editor for a newspaper so our work never really stops. If I'm not there, someone else has to do my work plus theirs. I feel a responsibility. My solution was for them to drive up on Sunday as planned and for me to drive up after work on Monday. Inside, I kind of thought it might bother him, but it's also what I feel like I need to do and what will be best -- this way I can do both. And, honestly, I'm kind of looking forward to a night to myself at this point, though I didn't mention that part. He seemed fine with it when I told him my plan.

Last night, he went off about it. He started trashing my boss (who he's never met). Saying how she never goes to bat for me. She's a horrible boss. She treats people terribly. She only cares about herself. These are all allegations he's aimed at my sisters, too. He said I should go in there and point out how much work I do and how little they pay me, how they haven't given a raise in 10 years (true -- dying industry) and that I demand more and if not, I'm leaving. He said that would get the point across. Well, I won't do that. I know that it won't get me anywhere as far as more money or benefits. They don't have it to give -- or at least it's not within her power. I've been looking for another job that would have more stability and more pay but so far haven't been successful. I've told him I don't want to quit without another job lined up. I need the health insurance and want to keep paying into retirement, etc. It's about 20% of what he makes, but I still want to contribute.

I've also been considering going back to school and getting an advanced degree in another field, one that can be fairly lucrative. It was his initial idea. But now I can't follow him on how he feels about it. One minute, he's encouraging it as a long-term investment. The next, he's annoyed, saying I just married him for his money and as a meal ticket and I'm obviously just expecting him to support me while I do this and find something that makes me happy. What does it matter if he's miserable at his job? I just want what I want. Then he presses me for my answer on which I want to do. Well, I haven't really decided yet. It's a major decision.

He went into "That's your thing. That's not my problem." If I go back to school? That's my decision. Doesn't affect him. If he decides he wants to retire early when I finish school and have to support us and pay back loans? That's my problem. Not his.

Part of the reason I want to go back and get a better career is so I can take on more of the financial burden. I know that's a sore spot for him -- that he's doing way more to support us financially than I am. Yet I also know going back now will put a strain on us short-term at a time when I don't think we need more. I'm basing a lot of this around its affect on us and him, yet he tells me it doesn't matter. I don't know what to think or do there.

I can't explain it to him. He says it's not fair that he has to carry so much of it and I agree. Yet I just always believed that, in a marriage, you're a team. But you're also not giving 50-50 in every aspect. In some, one may carry more of the load. In another area, another steps up. I don't do bean counting. But he seems focused on that. And last night he used that to turn it around on how I'm not supportive enough. I don't take his side enough. I don't agree with him enough. If he's supporting me, I owe him my loyalty. I guess I thought that, in marriage, who's bringing in more money didn't/shouldn't matter. Maybe I had a wrong view of marriage.

Then he went off on my car. We had to buy it this summer after I had a car accident (not my fault). It's in his name because he makes more money and has better credit and we couldn't get that deal on my salary.  He was sitting right there and agreed to it. He's worried now about his car and that he'll have to buy a new one, but with my car payment and a mortgage, he won't get as good a deal on interest rates. Wanted me to call and get the car switched over to my name. I get that (though it's also something he brings up when he goes into his "I want a divorce" or "I don't know how long we'll be married -- YOU'LL be stuck with that car. My lawyer will make sure of it").

All of this dovetailed -- again -- to my family. My sisters only think of themselves. They only talk about themselves. They're horrible people. They're b*****s. They don't care about him or S8. Or me. At the party, he spent a lot of time in the kitchen. When he came into the living room where everyone was, he sat on the far side of the room, looking like doom and gloom and like he'd rather be anywhere else. I encouraged him to come with me and sit over where everyone else was so he could be more a part of things. He came over. One of the sisters he hates asked a few questions about what we'd been up to, our upcoming big trip, etc. From what he said last night, he missed all of that.

This sister's 6-year-old daughter had a seizure out of the blue a week ago. Scary stuff. I told him about it when I heard -- partly because I knew it would come up and didn't want him to feel out of the loop. Last night he insisted that at the party, that's all anyone talked about. I did hear her talking to our grandmother about it, but I missed the other conversations. He complained that my dad (a doctor) was offering to call people and get them in to see a specialist earlier. Well, H had some health-related problems this fall regarding his psychiatrist. My dad doesn't have any psych contacts but called the people he could think of. It didn't end up getting H what he wanted or needed so what my dad did didn't count. Hearing him tell my sister what he could do (he does have pediatric contacts) just set H off more. And then he started talking about how S8 has had problems -- if he has, I didn't know about them -- and there was no help there. Compared my niece having a seizure to him getting a hang nail. Literally.

Once again, the conversation came back to how I always stand up for my family, never for him or S8. I'm always on their side.

The thing is, I can see why he might feel that way. I do understand where he's coming from. I see how he feels like I don't put him first with things like my work or with my family. But I also feel like he's not seeing things from my side. He blasts my boss -- a woman he doesn't know and a workplace he doesn't know or understand (he's the boss and has almost unlimited time off while I'm a low-level person in a corporate/media culture with set time off) -- and expects me to do what he thinks I should do. That he knows better than I do. He tells me he can tell my sisters hate me and I should hate them. People he barely knows. He admits he doesn't understand why I'd love them or want anything to do with them.

He came back again to my lying to him once. It was a mistake. I've apologized and admitted it. During one dysregulation, he got me to agree with him that my family had made a lot of mistakes and that we needed to pull out from family stuff for a while. I agreed. He also said I shouldn't text with them. Well, soon after, his attitude about things seemed to change and he wanted to invite my parents to dinner, etc. So, when I got the random text from a sibling about something, I responded. I didn't think it was a big deal. It slipped out that, yes, I was still texting with them (again, it's maybe once every other week). I should have told him that I was planning on responding, I get that. It just didn't seem like a big enough deal. But I also feel like my communication with my family is my business. And I don't want to burn bridges or cut ties. If someone writes to me, I don't want to ignore it. Last night he got worked up about it again, told me I should have just blocked all their numbers. I said I couldn't do that. I can't block family. He also said he wanted me to show him the texts. Well, I don't have them anymore. I don't save them. He almost flew off the handle that I couldn't and wouldn't let him see. Again, I'm not hiding anything. It was stuff like "Niece has a big gymnastics meet coming up. Good thoughts for her!" That's it.

 In a way, it triggers alarm bells that this is him trying to cut me off from work and family, classic actions of an abuser. But then a part of me thinks maybe I'm just overreacting and making things up. It's enough to make me feel like I'm losing my mind.

All this to say, it was another 3-hour conversation. He never crossed over into "crazy town" territory and I felt like he had some legitimate grievances yet some things were unfair and crossing the line. How do I get out of a conversation like that when he's NOT being too out-there and has some good points to make? Yet, at the same time, he's worked up and not thinking fully rationally either.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[stolencrumbs]

Hey Ozzie,
That's a lot going on. Hang in there. It sounds very familiar to me. You think you get through the really hard part relatively unscathed, and then some other trigger brings on a dysregulation and you learn that the thing you thought went okay did not really go okay at all.

Also very familiar with the 3+ hour kitchen sink conversations. Like you, I often find kernels of truth and legitimate issues in what my wife is saying. Things that I think deserve to be discussed. And so I start down the rabbit hole, and hours later we're still going. It took a lot of iterations of this for me to finally get that conversations like that aren't going to help anything. I still fall into them from time to time, but I can tell pretty early on when they're going to go everywhere and nowhere all at once.

I don't have great advice for how to exit them. One strategy is to acknowledge that these are important things that you want to talk about, but that you need to think about them. Suggest another time to talk about those things, and then stop engaging in the conversation. That's easier said than done, I know. My basic strategy is to just take all the blame for not being able to have the conversation right then. If she is not completely off the rails, I will suggest something else to do--go get dinner, have a cup of tea, walk the dogs, whatever. My wife rarely wants to talk about those things she was upset about at any other time, so usually it all just dies out until the next time. Not a great cycle, but maybe better than hours long conversations that don't move anything forward.

There's a decent chance that doing that will lead to an escalation, so be prepared for that. I know there have been times where you have felt unsafe, so think through what you can do if it escalates and how you can keep yourself safe.

[William_D]

Ha, i KNEW it!

After just a few paragraphs I said to myself, "Self, this woman is an expert linguist... .she must be a writer or like writing a lot"... .and lo, and behold, she is an editor / professional.  I really wish I could put my thoughts on paper like you, you really have a talent.  Quick question... .what does S8 stand for? 

That being said, Wow, so much if that really stinks and must painful and mind-blowing frustrating beyond belief.  Its like, if you talked to your husband in the same way he talked to you, he would never tolerate it... .more specifically

I get that (though it's also something he brings up when he goes into his "I want a divorce" or "I don't know how long we'll be married -- YOU'LL be stuck with that car. My lawyer will make sure of it").

That has to be painful and frightening and angering all at once. 

I really related to the following

1. Pretty much constant negativity about other people - The story about your boss really resonated with me because  he was mad at your boss and trying to defend your honor and value  you but also insulting you at the same time, and heaven forbid you call him out on it or don't agree, because if you don't agree... .insert potential chaos. 

2. No one is else can have anything wrong with them that is as bad or impactfull as what he is going through... .essentially minimizing other's problems.  This is very self centered.  The situation with the seizure... .  A 6 year old little girl has a seizure, a family member, you sure as hell better believe that's going to be the topic of conversation of everyone.   I have seen the same thing happen with my wife SOO many times.  My wife is TREMENDOUSLY ill ... its a long story.  We have had several friends get cancer and to through hell, and she seems to generally minimize what others are going through... .its a deep topic, but I just wanted to say that I feel you here completely, and ill bet comments like that happen all the time. 

3.  You are a level headed person who can see both sides.

The thing is, I can see why he might feel that way. I do understand where he's coming from. I see how he feels like I don't put him first with things like my work or with my family. But I also feel like he's not seeing things from my side.

Just the fact that you say this and can openly admit that you are less than perfect is a huge sign that are reasonable and level headed.  DO NOT forget that.  There is no question that he is not seeing the your side of the story, and this probably happens all the time. 

He came back again to my lying to him once. It was a mistake. I've apologized and admitted it. During one dysregulation, he got me to agree with him that my family had made a lot of mistakes and that we needed to pull out from family stuff for a while. I agreed. He also said I shouldn't text with them. Well, soon after, his attitude about things seemed to change and he wanted to invite my parents to dinner, etc. So, when I got the random text from a sibling about something, I responded. I didn't think it was a big deal. It slipped out that, yes, I was still texting with them (again, it's maybe once every other week). I should have told him that I was planning on responding, I get that. It just didn't seem like a big enough deal. But I also feel like my communication with my family is my business. And I don't want to burn bridges or cut ties. If someone writes to me, I don't want to ignore it. Last night he got worked up about it again, told me I should have just blocked all their numbers. I said I couldn't do that. I can't block family. He also said he wanted me to show him the texts. Well, I don't have them anymore. I don't save them. He almost flew off the handle that I couldn't and wouldn't let him see. Again, I'm not hiding anything. It was stuff like "Niece has a big gymnastics meet coming up. Good thoughts for her!" That's it.

Wow, #mylifetoo

So, here are my thoughts.  I really really feel for you because you are the one being treated unreasonably and receiving the bulk of the emotional abuse in the family, but you are reminded that you are not in the position of power.  Your husband makes more money and it seems that he sometimes reminds you of your position of weakness.  I cant relate to that, but because my wife is very ill and I am the sole provider who makes the money, and I really have the physical / financial power although the thought of abusing that power is  overwhelmingly disgusting to me.  Do you feel threatened that if you enforce your boundaries too much, and insist on your privacy, that he will abuse his power position with you?  Either way, I'm sorry, this really must feel bad.  I dont encourage dishonesty, but sometimes it feels that its easier to "walk around" a boulder than try to move it.  You can get a free google voice number and send texts from there if you need to... .its an option if you feel you are in a no win situation.  I may be giving terrible advice, but if he is going completely make your life hell by communicating with family then its an option in a pinch.  There is a google voice app for free.  You just need a g-mail account.

How do I get out of a conversation like that when he's NOT being too out-there and has some good points to make? Yet, at the same time, he's worked up and not thinking fully rationally either.

Let me know if you figure that one out... .I am going to do a LOT of homework as i just discovered BPD.  I'm sure there are probably lots that can help better than I, but I can give moral support. 

P.S. I rarely proof read- so please accept my typos a "character." ... .:-)

[Ozzie101]

Thank you for your replies and support. And thank you, William. I can get wordy but I've always been a writer so what can I say?  And S8 stands for 8-year-old son (my stepson).

Today I told my boss what is happening. Maybe it's an irrational fear, but I was afraid H would contact her to see if I'd asked for time off Dec. 31. As I suspected she would be, she was extremely concerned and supportive -- offered me time, her house as a safe place, her family and minivan to move things should it come to that. Also gave me contact info for a therapist who has been great for her. It reminded me that maybe I am a good person. I do have a deep bench if people who care. It was a good feeling.

I went to a great-uncle's funeral today. Last night, H was quizzing me. Where? What time? Who are you going to see? Not concern. More like getting facts so he can trap me in a lie later. Even said my going was a sign I was once again choosing my family. I just flatly said "going to my uncle's funeral is choosing my family over you? Hmm." This is the side of the family I'm close to. I grew up with these people. But H isn't close to his family and admits he doesn't understand why I'd care.

It's the fact that he couches it in protective, caring terms that gets me. I believe he means it, but it's still manipulative and wrong-headed. And he is very negative. Sees everyone in the worst light. Then wants vengeance. I do not and cannot operate that way.

Exiting conversations hasn't worked. They usually occur late at night. And when I've tried to leave the room and go to bed, he has blocked me or lashed out at how selfish I am.

Anyway, I called a local domestic violence hotline today and have an appointment with a counselor in the morning. She can help me talk through things and give me strategies to use if necessary.

[Harri]

Hi Ozzie.   

I am glad you will be talking with a DV counselor.  Some of your husbands behaviors and thought processes are concerning.

I think it is important that you maintain your contact with your family.  I just read something once removed said on another thread.  There is a difference between secrecy and privacy in a marriage.  I think in this case, having privacy surrounding your conversations with your family is important.  How to answer should he as you directly?  I am not sure to be honest but I hope it is something you discuss with the counselor.  Isolation is not good for anyone and definitely not good in your situation. 

I am sorry to hear of your Uncle's passing.  It is good you went to the service. 

I just flatly said "going to my uncle's funeral is choosing my family over you? Hmm."

I think you handled this very well.

You do write very well BTW!  When you can, let us know how you make out tomorrow.

[Jerome Finn]

I should have told him that I was planning on responding, I get that.

I used to believe that I needed to be 100% loyal to my wife as I believed that was what a marriage was all about.  She covertly cut out my friends and my family slowly but surely without me realising it.  Then after 17 years she had an affair and the wool was lifted from my eyes.  If there is one thing I regret the most it is allowing her to create distance between my friends and family.  Never again will I let her cut out my friends or family.  I have two close friends that I tell EVERYTHING to now and she has absolutely no idea.  She doesn't need to - they are not there for her; they are there for ME to support me in the stressful situations that she creates.  My wife would be upset if she knew (especially the about the female one as she doesn't like her and is obviously threatened by her) but she gave up the right to me keeping her secrets long ago.  I wish I had a relationship where I would keep her little embarassing things between the two of us but we don't and that was not my doing, it was hers.  You will need to choose for yourself of course, but I don't think it's true that you should have necessarily told him that you were going to respond.  You have every right to keep in communication with your family (actually it sounds like it might be a good idea - not sure if they are a support or toxic for you) and in my opinion he has given up any right to know about it.  One may argue that you both agreed not to contact them, but it sounds more like he convinced you as opposed to you coming to that conclusion by yourself.  You'd have to agree with your family not to mention it but I bet they'd love to be able to communicate with you without worrying that your husband might read it and be upset.  Use a secret gmail account or something that he'll never know about.  You have pure intent - just hearing about your neice's gymnastics for example so you have nothing to feel bad about.  Again - not telling you what to do but this just resonated with me as this was me 15 years ago.  Best wishes to you.

[Ozzie101]

Yes, it's more like he convinced me. It was during one of those long conversations, not long before I learned about BPD and started to put pieces together. I still thought I was the unreasonable one and it was easy for him to get me turned around.

On the privacy around family things, it's just one of those issues that has me wondering which end is up. I agreed (sort of) that I wouldn't text with them anymore. His strategy was, when they text, ignore it. Eventually they may ask what's wrong and then I can tell them why we're upset with them. At the time he said it, it sounded like a good plan. He had me getting worked up at them. But the next day, when I thought about it, I thought, "No. That's not right." I didn't want to bring it up with him again but he seemed to backtrack on some stuff and seemed in a better place. I don't even remember how the texts came up in conversation later, I just remember something slipped out when he was dysregulating and he latched onto it. He has since told me if I want to text with my family, fine. Just tell him and don't lie. It's the lie that gets him. However, when any mention of my family can set him off, I'm afraid to even mention it. I'm struggling to find the line there.

I would never and can never cut off my family. They're not perfect but they're not even in the realm of toxic. And I know they've made some mistakes and/or have some personality quirks that have led to problems with H. But they love me unconditionally. I have no doubt of that. If I were to tell them tomorrow that I was leaving him, an army of them would be at my house with boxes and packing tape, no questions asked.

It's a bond he can't understand because he has never been close to his family. He's an only child (or was until he found his biological family this summer) so the complex sibling dynamic is something he doesn't get. He's bonding with his bio family now, which has been good but still hasn't really helped things yet with my family.

But maybe that's part of the problem. He's threatened by it and jealous of it.

He keeps bringing up past relationships -- how he's been immediately embraced by girlfriends' parents. So there's something wrong with my family. He had troubles with his first wife's family, but he's blamed that on them and their personalities. My family can be rather reserved and some of them are shy. It can take time to really be integrated with them if you're not outgoing or receptive. At family things, he gets overwhelmed and just sits off to the side. The tension comes off of him in waves and he really does come across as unapproachable. Hard to form relationships that way. I have told him that (in a nice way). S8, on the other hand, jumps right in with the other kids and they all have a great time. At the latest party, he was curled up in my dad's lap at one point, playing on his iPad. Yet, H insists that S8 is treated badly by them. He's treated badly by them. I need to call them on it.

I just fear it's an area where we'll never agree. He's set in his thinking about them and no matter what they do, they can't do anything right. That's frustrating for me because, while I know they aren't perfect, I also know they're not guilty of what he accuses them of.

[Ozzie101]

I am glad you will be talking with a DV counselor.  Some of your husbands behaviors and thought processes are concerning.

I met with the counselor this morning and found it incredibly helpful. She was a calm, gentle person, easy to talk to and very knowledgeable. She gave me some very good tools to use. For instance, she recommended that every morning, I write something positive on a piece of paper and carry it around with me through the day. When I feel down or when he's in a mood, either read it or just think about it and focus on that good thing. She said it may help keep me from getting lost in the negativity.

She also recommended having just one very close person to whom I share the details (meaning in my family/friends circle). Someone who won't tell me what to do, won't judge me or him, will just listen and provide unconditional support. For me, that's my mom. She's never said one bad word about H and she has told me "I'm not going to tell you what to do. That's your decision. But I'm here for you and we'll help you in whatever way you need." Of course, I'll also continue to share here. There are a few things I can't even tell her.

She did commend me on recognizing H's attempts to isolate me and my refusal to cut things off with my family.

Also had escape and safety plan info. Some of it I've already done. Other stuff I can implement.

What was extremely helpful was hearing someone trained in this sort of thing tell me:
1) I'm not overreacting.
2) I'm not imagining things.
3) It's not my fault. Nobody's perfect and no matter what mistakes have been made, no one deserves to be talked to in certain ways.
4) The things H is doing are, indeed, abusive and are red flags to watch.
5) Only I can decide what I want to do and what I'm willing to live with.
6) Whether he's admitted it or not, there's the possibility H was abused or witnessed abuse. It's not an excuse for his behavior, but an explanation for his rage and unhealthy coping patterns.

Anyway, we'll meet every other week for now. The shelter is near my work so we'll meet in the mornings on work days so H doesn't know about it. (I have my boss's full support.) And there are a lot of resources there, should I need them.

And thank you for the condolences on my uncle. He was 100 -- so a very long, good, full life to be celebrated. But it's sad because he was the last of my grandfather's brothers. Reminded me of how much I miss my grandfather, who was a strong, positive force my whole life. Thinking about him and the kind of man he was has actually made me stronger in all this and has helped me realize that, no, this is not normal and, no, I do not deserve the way I'm being treated.

[Harri]

Ozzie, that visit went beautifully!  I am so glad you went and that you will continue to go.   

And thank you for the condolences on my uncle. He was 100 -- so a very long, good, full life to be celebrated. But it's sad because he was the last of my grandfather's brothers. Reminded me of how much I miss my grandfather, who was a strong, positive force my whole life. Thinking about him and the kind of man he was has actually made me stronger in all this and has helped me realize that, no, this is not normal and, no, I do not deserve the way I'm being treated.

This made me smile, though I am sorry you are grieving.  I love hearing about people who have had good family members who they love and respect.  I am glad both your Uncle and G-pa were that way for you and that your memories are helping you now.

What makes me grin ear to ear though?  This: 

and, no, I do not deserve the way I'm being treated.

Hold onto this.  That you can see that, say it and believe it takes a great deal of strength and I am very pleased for you.

[Ozzie101]

Thank you, Harri. The support and encouragement I've been getting here has been invaluable and I hope as I continue, I can give a portion of that back in return.

[Harri]

The people here really are wonderful aren't they?

I am including you in that too ya know. 

Giving back is what keeps this place going so just keep being you.