A whole family of BPD?

[Our abuse recovery guide]

So here goes... .I come from a messed up family.  There, I said it.  That feels good!

To (try to) cut a very long story short, I always felt that my role in the family was to be quiet with my feelings because there were more important, or more urgent things for my mother to deal with and my feelings or opinions were just too much to deal with on top of my borderline sister (although she wasn’t diagnosed until she was in her 20s) and my at best emotionally detached father - at worst he was extremely passive aggressive.  Not to mention his family who seemed to delight in putting my father in a position to choose between us and them - he never chose them but he also never chose us. They also seemed to delight in using me to manipulate my parents into doing things - if you don’t take us to the shop we won’t give her her inheritance.  My parents told me my whole life that my grandparents took a disliking to me at the age of two.  My auntie called me the spawn of Satan to a group of extended family at a family funeral (I wasn’t there but am very close with someone who was).  This has always felt incredibly unfair to me because 1) they hardly know me and 2) I have felt that on the whole out of my whole family I was the one who mostly cared about other people’s feelings and treated everyone with empathy and respect while the rest of them were quite nasty and uncaring at times. Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure I have my moments and am by no means perfect.
I don’t have enough words or hours to fully try to explain this but basically in early childhood I didn’t notice much was wrong, but in my teens I started avoiding being at home at all costs and engaging in quite destructive behaviour. I didn’t realise that at the time but in hindsight it’s quite scary the things I used to get up to - although all self inflicted and well hidden from everyone else.
From late teens I started seeing a private counsellor of my own accord and since then on and off have worked very hard to amend my extreme people pleasing tendencies, try to value my own feelings and set boundaries, although I still find this incredibly difficult because of the extreme guilt I feel, which isn’t helped by the perpetual attempted manipulation from my mother to ensure that my sister (and herself to a degree) can behave however they want with no consequences let alone acknowledgement of how their behaviour impacts me or my feelings.
For the last 3 years or so I have been trying to engage them in a conversation of how broken our relationships are - I have a role in the disfunction too which is to hide my feelings at all costs - so that we can try to work towards healthier, happier relationships.  Needless to say this has not worked.
I went for lunch with them about a month ago where I just snapped.  My sister was in one of those moods where she wanted a fight and after being perpetually attacked by her, with my Mum joining in eventually I got up and walked out of a restaurant as they were serving my food.  I cried on the phone to my husband on the way home (hands free obviously!) but also felt so proud of myself for walking out - this is he first time I have actually removed myself.  Usually I am so flabbergasted by my sisters behaviour (and my Mum’s sometimes) that I am left speechless and have no idea what to say or how to set a boundary with them that I sit there uncomfortably willing the situation to end.
A couple of days later they both text me asking what was wrong and why I had left (also a first - my sister has never asked me what was wrong if I have been upset about something she’s done), and when I replied saying that I had found the way she spoke to me very hurtful and I often feel as though they care very little about my feelings, my sister replied with a barrage of abuse about how I am rude and she’s not going to tolerate it any more, it’s shameful that I haven’t apologised and I’m a horrible person etc etc.  My mum replied saying that she felt my sister was tactless but that I was in the wrong and she went on to criticise that I can be very intense at times and she finds it uncomfortable blah blah blah.
I ended up apologising to my Mum! Thinking about my own beavhior I don’t think I was rude or scathing (as she had said) at any point - I perhaps could have been intense because I felt so attacked by my sister that I couldn’t finish a sentence without her interrupting me with a nasty comment but I didn’t raise my voice at any point, say anything other than starting sentences about what we were talking about (the house build) and when I walked out I calmly stood up, picked up my bag and left.

I feel as though I am crazy.  I definitely do play a part in the dynamic because I find it extremely difficult to state my feelings to them so more often than not deliberately decide to choose my battles, but if I do, it doesn’t matter how I try to I am told that I shouldn’t do it at the time, I shouldn’t do it after, I shouldn’t do it by phone, in person, by text, how I have done it is wrong... .and on and on and on.  This lunch just made me snap... .I can not do this any more.  For a couple of weeks after my Mum and I were engaged in perpetual emails and phone calls with me trying to explain how I felt about the incident and the relationship, that her/them not ‘allowing’ me to express my feelings is far more hurtful than the thing that has caused me to want to express my feelings in the first place, with Mum telling me that my perception of events was wrong, I was the one in the wrong, my feelings are unjustified etc.
With my sister I replied to her barrage of abuse that I want her to want to understand why I feel this way, even if she doesn’t agree with what I am saying.  Needless to say that didn’t go down well.  I just cannot understand how the people who are meant to care about me the most seem to not only behave in incredibly hurtful ways towards me in the first place, but then will do everything in their power to not ‘allow’ me to be upset by something.  Some of the things are my personal values - being extremely rude to people in social situations, nasty comments to strangers at restaurants, but some of the things seem so black and white to me that I cannot understand how I am the the one defending my feelings when it seems so obvious that behaviour is completely unacceptable - having a screaming row with each other (my sister and parents) in front of 10 of my friends at my birthday do. And I am the one that is expected to apologise for being upset because I found their behaviour hurtful?
My Mum and I have done a couple of sessions with a counsellor which is progress... .the first session was horrendous where she shouted at me and told me I was lying for anything I said, while also perpetually lying about things she thinks I’ve done - things that I am upset about that she’s done.  But the second session was more positive and she seemed to drop the defensiveness and try to listen to why I am so hurt.  She even acknowledged that I was neglected as a child because of my sister and father being too much to handle for her and eventually apologised for this.  So hopefully we’ll make progress there.

But my sister point blank refuses to speak to me about it.  She says that if I can’t be happy this year (I got married) then I will never be happy.  How is anything that black and white? I feel as though the only way for us to have a relationship is if I continue with our family game of pretending that everything she does is completely normal, she can behave however she wants with no cproblem consequences and if I try to start a discussion about something that has happened to cause me to feel upset she hangs up on me and refuses to speak about it.  Bother her and my Mum stonewall me - my sis more obviously by literally refusing to have any kind of conversation with me about anything, she will only engage with me if I continue to pretend that we are really close and she has never done anything wrong.  While my Mum is more slippery and perpetually tells me my perception of the events is wrong, I am being triggered, I am phrasing it wrong etc.  And what hurts is that do they really care so little about my feelings that they would happily have a relationship with me knowing I am this miserable? I have repeatedly tried to start these conversations and they both deny this happening.
A couple of weeks after th incident my counsellor suggested to ask them directly for the things that I need from them instead of trying to get them to understand why I am feeling this way - so I asked them if they were happy for me to do this, and after them both saying yes I emailed them with a request for 4 things:
1) acknowledge or ideally validate my feelings.  They don’t have to agree with them but allow us to have a conversation about my feelings (and theirs) understanding that I am entitled to have feelings even if they don’t agree with them.

2) If there is any context which I am not understanding please explain it to me.  If I have found something hurtful and we have a conversation about what happened or why something was done, perhaps with my understanding of the context I will see the intentions weren’t malicious.

3) if they have feelings or thoughts about my behaviour I absolutely want to hear about them so I can address it if I feel necessary, but not as a reply to me trying to express me feelings.  This just feels like a deflection so I end up apologising for something when I have raised an issue because I am upset about seotmuing they have done.

4) do no tell me what I am feeling or why - I am the only person who knows this and I find it incredibly invalidating, especially as they are nearly always wrong.

I also sent some supporting links about validation etc.

So my sister replied that she doesn’t agree with my assessment of our relationship, she thinks it’s perfectly fine, she is happy and therefore she’s not going to bend over backwards to make sure that I am happy as there is nothing wrong.

My mum replied that she doesn’t have to be accountable to anyone (one of the articles I sent was about accountability although I did explain that the bit I felt was relevant said ‘we are all responsible for our own behaviour, regardless of what someone else has done’) - and while she didn’t say it as bluntly as my sister, she also said no.

I am at a loss.  This has developed a bit further by Mum and I having counselling since then and last week I sent my sister an email saying I had some reflections since the counselling sessions - that I think the issue is that we don’t communicate very well (all 3 of us), I don’t ask and she doesn’t say so we never truly understand why something has happened or why she has behaved in a certain way, and that I would like us to improve our communication so that we all can have a happier, healthier relationship where we feel confident expressing our feelings to each other.  She replied saying that she meant what she said in her last email and that the issue is with me and me alone, she does not have a problem, she is perfectly happy with our relationship and she is confident I can sort this out on my own, if she didn’t think that she would step in.  Also that the examples I had given were minor slights at best which people deal with every day but I focus on the negatives and drive people away because I hurt their feelings.  Which is interesting because she has zero friends and has repeatedly commented on how she can’t understand how I get so many people to come to my birthday dos because she doesn’t even know that many people.

To be honest I would settle for us just being able to have a relationship where my feelings count too - but it is increasingly obvious to me that it is unlikely to ever happen.  I have thought that maybe I need to be setting firmer boundaries but I have absolutely no idea how you set boundaries with someone that will deliberately trample them anyway, but also why on earth would I want a relationship with someone who so openly doesn’t give a crap about my feelings? But I do, if I am honest.  But I think I have finally reached a point where I am not prepared to have a relationship with someone who will not even engage in a discussion with me about anything that has happened, ever.  I would happily just discuss things as they arise without having to go through a lifetime of hurt from her behaviour and lack of responsibility for it, but she won’t even allow me to do that. So my reply to her was that I was going to ignore most of her comments because they were telling me how I feel and why, but that I find it very sad that she feels that only her feelings and happiness matters in the relationship.  I would like us to start a dialogue about a healthier relationship but if she is unwilling to do so then I really don’t see what else I can do other than to say goodbye for now, the door will always be open if she changes her mind but I won’t b contacting her again.

The thing is, she has me doubting myself.  Am I being unreasonable? Do I focus on the negatives? Are my feelings valid? Should I be setting firm limits and not be trying to have a conversation about how I have felt about something she’s done? Am I the one with the issue?

And I read the walking on eggshells book yesterday - it is very interesting and enlightening, although I have also realised that my Mum also has BPD and/or narcissistic traits, possibly my father did too and more to the point, do I? I definitely relate to some of the feelings... .extreme emptiness, worthlessness, an eating disorder, despair, but I have always thought that there is no point blaming anyone and have spent my life trying to be happy but I have reached the point today with another cycle of depression that has put me on my knees that maybe I need to acknowledge how hurt and angry I feel about my families emotional abuse and how bloody unfair it was/is.  Both my mum and sister said in their replies to me that if it was abuse it would be a different story but it isn’t so tough (I’m paraphrasing) - which is interesting because they brought up abuse, not me.  And I think it is.  Is it so unrealistic or unreasonable to expect to be allowed to have your own feelings? To be allowed to have a conversation where we can all express our feelings and be validated without the denial, accusations, attack and manipulation? I don’t feel like I’m being unreasonable but with them both telling me I am I can help but let their words get under my skin and question whether I really am the issue here.

I have also started questioning whether my reality is accurate - I was estranged from my father for 3 years, then I got back in touch with him then after a couple of meetings he died.  I am estranged from my whole family on my father’s side apart from one person (who I mentioned earlier re telling me about the spawn of Satan thing) - and now I am wondering, is what I have been told about these people hating me my entire life actually true, or is it a story my Mother has unconsciously concocted because of her own mental health issues? I have absolutely no idea what is true, whether to trust my own reality or if I am the issue.  Where it’s a combination of the both or what the hell to do now.  I know that I am incredibly unhappy so my plan is to try to address my buried feelings about my childhood while actively trying to put steps in place to find better coping mechanisms - I.e. not binge eating, drinking or watching tv - and find some happiness.

If you have got this far, thank you.  That was a lot longer than I was expecting but it feels cathartic just letting it out.  Any suggestions would be much appreciated, including constructive criticism although I am feeling a bit fragile at the moment so please be gentle!

[Lafemmevert]

So here goes... .I come from a messed up family.  There, I said it.  That feels good!

To (try to) cut a very long story short, I always felt that my role in the family was to be quiet with my feelings because there were more important, or more urgent things for my mother to deal with and my feelings or opinions were just too much to deal with on top of my borderline sister (although she wasn’t diagnosed until she was in her 20s) and my at best emotionally detached father - at worst he was extremely passive aggressive.  Not to mention his family who seemed to delight in putting my father in a position to choose between us and them - he never chose them but he also never chose us. They also seemed to delight in using me to manipulate my parents into doing things - if you don’t take us to the shop we won’t give her her inheritance.  My parents told me my whole life that my grandparents took a disliking to me at the age of two.  My auntie called me the spawn of Satan to a group of extended family at a family funeral (I wasn’t there but am very close with someone who was).  This has always felt incredibly unfair to me because 1) they hardly know me and 2) I have felt that on the whole out of my whole family I was the one who mostly cared about other people’s feelings and treated everyone with empathy and respect while the rest of them were quite nasty and uncaring at times. Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure I have my moments and am by no means perfect.
I don’t have enough words or hours to fully try to explain this but basically in early childhood I didn’t notice much was wrong, but in my teens I started avoiding being at home at all costs and engaging in quite destructive behaviour. I didn’t realise that at the time but in hindsight it’s quite scary the things I used to get up to - although all self inflicted and well hidden from everyone else.
From late teens I started seeing a private counsellor of my own accord and since then on and off have worked very hard to amend my extreme people pleasing tendencies, try to value my own feelings and set boundaries, although I still find this incredibly difficult because of the extreme guilt I feel, which isn’t helped by the perpetual attempted manipulation from my mother to ensure that my sister (and herself to a degree) can behave however they want with no consequences let alone acknowledgement of how their behaviour impacts me or my feelings.
For the last 3 years or so I have been trying to engage them in a conversation of how broken our relationships are - I have a role in the disfunction too which is to hide my feelings at all costs - so that we can try to work towards healthier, happier relationships.  Needless to say this has not worked.
I went for lunch with them about a month ago where I just snapped.  My sister was in one of those moods where she wanted a fight and after being perpetually attacked by her, with my Mum joining in eventually I got up and walked out of a restaurant as they were serving my food.  I cried on the phone to my husband on the way home (hands free obviously!) but also felt so proud of myself for walking out - this is he first time I have actually removed myself.  Usually I am so flabbergasted by my sisters behaviour (and my Mum’s sometimes) that I am left speechless and have no idea what to say or how to set a boundary with them that I sit there uncomfortably willing the situation to end.
A couple of days later they both text me asking what was wrong and why I had left (also a first - my sister has never asked me what was wrong if I have been upset about something she’s done), and when I replied saying that I had found the way she spoke to me very hurtful and I often feel as though they care very little about my feelings, my sister replied with a barrage of abuse about how I am rude and she’s not going to tolerate it any more, it’s shameful that I haven’t apologised and I’m a horrible person etc etc.  My mum replied saying that she felt my sister was tactless but that I was in the wrong and she went on to criticise that I can be very intense at times and she finds it uncomfortable blah blah blah.
I ended up apologising to my Mum! Thinking about my own beavhior I don’t think I was rude or scathing (as she had said) at any point - I perhaps could have been intense because I felt so attacked by my sister that I couldn’t finish a sentence without her interrupting me with a nasty comment but I didn’t raise my voice at any point, say anything other than starting sentences about what we were talking about (the house build) and when I walked out I calmly stood up, picked up my bag and left.

I feel as though I am crazy.  I definitely do play a part in the dynamic because I find it extremely difficult to state my feelings to them so more often than not deliberately decide to choose my battles, but if I do, it doesn’t matter how I try to I am told that I shouldn’t do it at the time, I shouldn’t do it after, I shouldn’t do it by phone, in person, by text, how I have done it is wrong... .and on and on and on.  This lunch just made me snap... .I can not do this any more.  For a couple of weeks after my Mum and I were engaged in perpetual emails and phone calls with me trying to explain how I felt about the incident and the relationship, that her/them not ‘allowing’ me to express my feelings is far more hurtful than the thing that has caused me to want to express my feelings in the first place, with Mum telling me that my perception of events was wrong, I was the one in the wrong, my feelings are unjustified etc.
With my sister I replied to her barrage of abuse that I want her to want to understand why I feel this way, even if she doesn’t agree with what I am saying.  Needless to say that didn’t go down well.  I just cannot understand how the people who are meant to care about me the most seem to not only behave in incredibly hurtful ways towards me in the first place, but then will do everything in their power to not ‘allow’ me to be upset by something.  Some of the things are my personal values - being extremely rude to people in social situations, nasty comments to strangers at restaurants, but some of the things seem so black and white to me that I cannot understand how I am the the one defending my feelings when it seems so obvious that behaviour is completely unacceptable - having a screaming row with each other (my sister and parents) in front of 10 of my friends at my birthday do. And I am the one that is expected to apologise for being upset because I found their behaviour hurtful?
My Mum and I have done a couple of sessions with a counsellor which is progress... .the first session was horrendous where she shouted at me and told me I was lying for anything I said, while also perpetually lying about things she thinks I’ve done - things that I am upset about that she’s done.  But the second session was more positive and she seemed to drop the defensiveness and try to listen to why I am so hurt.  She even acknowledged that I was neglected as a child because of my sister and father being too much to handle for her and eventually apologised for this.  So hopefully we’ll make progress there.

But my sister point blank refuses to speak to me about it.  She says that if I can’t be happy this year (I got married) then I will never be happy.  How is anything that black and white? I feel as though the only way for us to have a relationship is if I continue with our family game of pretending that everything she does is completely normal, she can behave however she wants with no cproblem consequences and if I try to start a discussion about something that has happened to cause me to feel upset she hangs up on me and refuses to speak about it.  Bother her and my Mum stonewall me - my sis more obviously by literally refusing to have any kind of conversation with me about anything, she will only engage with me if I continue to pretend that we are really close and she has never done anything wrong.  While my Mum is more slippery and perpetually tells me my perception of the events is wrong, I am being triggered, I am phrasing it wrong etc.  And what hurts is that do they really care so little about my feelings that they would happily have a relationship with me knowing I am this miserable? I have repeatedly tried to start these conversations and they both deny this happening.
A couple of weeks after th incident my counsellor suggested to ask them directly for the things that I need from them instead of trying to get them to understand why I am feeling this way - so I asked them if they were happy for me to do this, and after them both saying yes I emailed them with a request for 4 things:
1) acknowledge or ideally validate my feelings.  They don’t have to agree with them but allow us to have a conversation about my feelings (and theirs) understanding that I am entitled to have feelings even if they don’t agree with them.

2) If there is any context which I am not understanding please explain it to me.  If I have found something hurtful and we have a conversation about what happened or why something was done, perhaps with my understanding of the context I will see the intentions weren’t malicious.

3) if they have feelings or thoughts about my behaviour I absolutely want to hear about them so I can address it if I feel necessary, but not as a reply to me trying to express me feelings.  This just feels like a deflection so I end up apologising for something when I have raised an issue because I am upset about seotmuing they have done.

4) do no tell me what I am feeling or why - I am the only person who knows this and I find it incredibly invalidating, especially as they are nearly always wrong.

I also sent some supporting links about validation etc.

So my sister replied that she doesn’t agree with my assessment of our relationship, she thinks it’s perfectly fine, she is happy and therefore she’s not going to bend over backwards to make sure that I am happy as there is nothing wrong.

My mum replied that she doesn’t have to be accountable to anyone (one of the articles I sent was about accountability although I did explain that the bit I felt was relevant said ‘we are all responsible for our own behaviour, regardless of what someone else has done’) - and while she didn’t say it as bluntly as my sister, she also said no.

I am at a loss.  This has developed a bit further by Mum and I having counselling since then and last week I sent my sister an email saying I had some reflections since the counselling sessions - that I think the issue is that we don’t communicate very well (all 3 of us), I don’t ask and she doesn’t say so we never truly understand why something has happened or why she has behaved in a certain way, and that I would like us to improve our communication so that we all can have a happier, healthier relationship where we feel confident expressing our feelings to each other.  She replied saying that she meant what she said in her last email and that the issue is with me and me alone, she does not have a problem, she is perfectly happy with our relationship and she is confident I can sort this out on my own, if she didn’t think that she would step in.  Also that the examples I had given were minor slights at best which people deal with every day but I focus on the negatives and drive people away because I hurt their feelings.  Which is interesting because she has zero friends and has repeatedly commented on how she can’t understand how I get so many people to come to my birthday dos because she doesn’t even know that many people.

To be honest I would settle for us just being able to have a relationship where my feelings count too - but it is increasingly obvious to me that it is unlikely to ever happen.  I have thought that maybe I need to be setting firmer boundaries but I have absolutely no idea how you set boundaries with someone that will deliberately trample them anyway, but also why on earth would I want a relationship with someone who so openly doesn’t give a crap about my feelings? But I do, if I am honest.  But I think I have finally reached a point where I am not prepared to have a relationship with someone who will not even engage in a discussion with me about anything that has happened, ever.  I would happily just discuss things as they arise without having to go through a lifetime of hurt from her behaviour and lack of responsibility for it, but she won’t even allow me to do that. So my reply to her was that I was going to ignore most of her comments because they were telling me how I feel and why, but that I find it very sad that she feels that only her feelings and happiness matters in the relationship.  I would like us to start a dialogue about a healthier relationship but if she is unwilling to do so then I really don’t see what else I can do other than to say goodbye for now, the door will always be open if she changes her mind but I won’t b contacting her again.

The thing is, she has me doubting myself.  Am I being unreasonable? Do I focus on the negatives? Are my feelings valid? Should I be setting firm limits and not be trying to have a conversation about how I have felt about something she’s done? Am I the one with the issue?

And I read the walking on eggshells book yesterday - it is very interesting and enlightening, although I have also realised that my Mum also has BPD and/or narcissistic traits, possibly my father did too and more to the point, do I? I definitely relate to some of the feelings... .extreme emptiness, worthlessness, an eating disorder, despair, but I have always thought that there is no point blaming anyone and have spent my life trying to be happy but I have reached the point today with another cycle of depression that has put me on my knees that maybe I need to acknowledge how hurt and angry I feel about my families emotional abuse and how bloody unfair it was/is.  Both my mum and sister said in their replies to me that if it was abuse it would be a different story but it isn’t so tough (I’m paraphrasing) - which is interesting because they brought up abuse, not me.  And I think it is.  Is it so unrealistic or unreasonable to expect to be allowed to have your own feelings? To be allowed to have a conversation where we can all express our feelings and be validated without the denial, accusations, attack and manipulation? I don’t feel like I’m being unreasonable but with them both telling me I am I can help but let their words get under my skin and question whether I really am the issue here.

I have also started questioning whether my reality is accurate - I was estranged from my father for 3 years, then I got back in touch with him then after a couple of meetings he died.  I am estranged from my whole family on my father’s side apart from one person (who I mentioned earlier re telling me about the spawn of Satan thing) - and now I am wondering, is what I have been told about these people hating me my entire life actually true, or is it a story my Mother has unconsciously concocted because of her own mental health issues? I have absolutely no idea what is true, whether to trust my own reality or if I am the issue.  Where it’s a combination of the both or what the hell to do now.  I know that I am incredibly unhappy so my plan is to try to address my buried feelings about my childhood while actively trying to put steps in place to find better coping mechanisms - I.e. not binge eating, drinking or watching tv - and find some happiness.

If you have got this far, thank you.  That was a lot longer than I was expecting but it feels cathartic just letting it out.  Any suggestions would be much appreciated, including constructive criticism although I am feeling a bit fragile at the moment so please be gentle!

[sklamath]

Welcome, Lafemmevert! Thank you for sharing your story. How hurtful to not only have dysfunction in your immediate family, but also be called names by your extended family. I'm sorry that has happened to you, and that your mom and sister continue to be abusive.

It was an "aha moment" after a more-intense-than-usual rage incident with my uBPD mom that brought me to this forum earlier this year. I can relate to apologizing for more than my share! So many years of sitting through the silent treatment, pouting, and rage incidents from my mom until, without fail, I would apologize for asserting myself. I've learned a lot in my fairly brief time here, and through resources that members have recommended. One of the things I see reiterated here and in other resources is about how any attempts to set boundaries and challenge the status quo will pretty reliably trigger a pwBPD to act out. But that triggering is also not the same thing as causing the behavior. My mom is responsible for her behavior, and I am responsible for my behavior.

I want to emphasize that your reality matters. You matter! It is so important to believe in your own truth as you move forward. BPD can really warp our loved one's perceptions, such that "feelings create facts". It's only this year that I began to recognize gaslighting for what it was. For my mom, if she doesn't like a thing I did or said, it becomes a thing I did to hurt her. She'll rearrange partial truths to fuel her anger and justification to express that anger; this makes it difficult to refute, and it's extremely disorienting. Do you think it would be helpful to connect with the relative you mentioned to help validate your experience and support you in healing?

I am really happy to hear that you and your mom are in therapy together--that's HUGE! I also think it's great that you could articulate what you need and want from your mom & sister. Your expectations seem like perfectly reasonable things to expect in a relationship. However, sometimes a pwBPD isn't healthy enough to provide what is reasonable. Even if your mom and sister don't--or can't--follow through on what you've asked of them, can you think of how these might translate into boundaries that protect you?

When I first connected my mom's behavior to BPD, I was hopeful that maybe if she just had more information she would understand and could change... .but I have had to accept that I am the only person who I can change. And even in that, I need to be patient. How can you take care of you even if your mom and sister don't change?

[Harri]

Hi and welcome!  I am glad you reached out and posted here.  That is a big step in the healing process.

Your feelings are valid.  Unfortunately at this point your mother and sister have both said no they will not change how they communicate with you.  That is their right.  Sklamath asked if you can figure out a way to set boundaries that will protect you.  Boundaries will help.  So will understanding self-differentiation.  Often time in families with dysfunction, we develop behaviors that keep us tied to our family members.   

Learning to see ourselves as separate from our family helps us break away from things like looking to others to define us and being drawn into their drama.  It also means allowing others to have their own opinions, thoughts and feelings and being okay with the fact that they may see things differently than we do.  Self-differentiation involves knowing where you end and begin in relation to another person. 

None of this will change your mom or sister but it will help you be better able to cope and to set appropriate boundaries and have realistic expectations about their behavior.

Make sense?

[Lafemmevert]

Hi Sklamath and Harri!

Firstly, thank you both for taking the time to read my long post and for replying.  It's really nice to be able to speak about this all.  Your comments are very helpful!

Sklamath, I'm sorry to hear about your Mum's rages.  I only occasionally experience rages from my Mum or sister, probably because I usually go along with their behaviour without saying anything, but I know they are not pleasant when they do arrive.

Re getting in touch with the relative I mentioned, he is my second cousin and just a couple of years older than me so I'm not sure how much of what was going on he would be aware of.  I know that his parents had a minor involvement in some of the stuff though, so I think it's a really good idea to ask him if he'd be willing to discuss it all to find out what his perception of it all was/is.

Thanks also both for your validation of my feelings and reality mattering - I feel so confused by it all and so lost in the cross between feeling strongly about what I am experiencing to doubting whether what they are saying is true and I have got it all wrong, that I struggle to stand by my feelings regardless of what they are saying.  I am working on it though.

I also logically know that it doesn't matter whether they acknowledge my feelings, but if I am honest, while I am aware this is childish and doesn't help me at all, I am so sick of being the person that validates their feelings while repeatedly being told that my reality is 'wrong' while theirs is 'right' that I just wish for once my family cared enough about me to want to try to understand why I am upset by something instead of it perpetually being about them and their feelings and their needs.  I am aware how unhelpful that is for this process - I cannot control them, only myself - but it may take me a while for my heart to catch up with my head.  I think I need to do some work on letting go of the idea I have of what our relationships should or could have been, because I think I have buried how hurt and angry I feel about this that it's only now coming to the surface.

I have unconsciously spent a lot of my life surrounding myself with people that treat me in the same way they do,  until the last few years that is, and I am now not entirely sure I want to have a relationship with my sister if it's going to be on those terms - i.e. where I protect myself with very firm boundaries while she continues to treat me as though I am completely worthless. I'm just not sure I see the point in having people like that in my life, and I would rather have people who treat me with care and respect.  Having said that I do need to work on my boundaries anyway, I struggle to assert myself on the whole.

I think that figuring out how to translate my expectations into boundaries is a really good suggestion, thank you.  I have absolutely no idea how to do this but I will definitely start figuring it out.  I struggle to understand how to set a boundary with someone who either flies into a rage or completely stonewalls me but I think that's because I am still making it about wanting/needing them to validate me rather than it being about me and what I am willing to put up with.  Another thing I will work on!

Harri, your suggestion on self-differentiation is a good one too - if I am honest it jarred on me because it triggered the intense injustice I feel about me validating their feelings and being ok with their opinions differing, while I am not 'allowed' to have my own feelings, but if that's not an indication that I have some work to do there then I don't know what is!  It's not a term I've heard before, but it makes complete sense.  I feel very responsible for theirs (and other people's) feelings so a lot of my behaviour revolves around not upsetting them and other people rather than what I actually want.  Or, I do the opposite and put up a brick wall to allow me to look after my own feelings, which buries the guilt I feel to try to allow me to protect myself.  Writing this sounds absurd because of the amount of times I have explained boundaries and looking after yourself to other people who struggle with this - despite the fact that I am currently completely incapable of doing this myself.  I think in all of this I have realised how little self esteem I have and how great my need is to have someone to tell me that I have some worth.  Which I now realise needs to come from within, rather than someone else.

Thank you again for all of your help.  I have some things to work on which feels positive in itself

[Harri]

Thanks also both for your validation of my feelings and reality mattering - I feel so confused by it all and so lost in the cross between feeling strongly about what I am experiencing to doubting whether what they are saying is true and I have got it all wrong, that I struggle to stand by my feelings regardless of what they are saying.  I am working on it though.

You matter, your feelings matter and they are valid.     Being able to stand firm in your feelings is hard work.  Just keep at it.  it will happen, that point where you don't question as much.  

I also logically know that it doesn't matter whether they acknowledge my feelings, but if I am honest, while I am aware this is childish and doesn't help me at all, I am so sick of being the person that validates their feelings while repeatedly being told that my reality is 'wrong' while theirs is 'right' that I just wish for once my family cared enough about me to want to try to understand why I am upset by something instead of it perpetually being about them and their feelings and their needs.  I am aware how unhelpful that is for this process - I cannot control them, only myself - but it may take me a while for my heart to catch up with my head.  I think I need to do some work on letting go of the idea I have of what our relationships should or could have been, because I think I have buried how hurt and angry I feel about this that it's only now coming to the surface.

In some ways, typical logic has no place when dealing with disordered people or even our own disordered thoughts and behaviors.  So I think maybe focusing on the hurt that is natural to feel when recognizing that your feelings are not important to another and wanting family to care and give back what you give is more important.  It is not childish to feel resentment (or whatever).  It is normal human behavior, but in our cases focusing too much on the hurt does not serve us well.  I am not saying to deny it or ignore it, rather work on acceptance.  

We can help you with learning about and defining boundaries for yourself.  We all learn together.

Harri, your suggestion on self-differentiation is a good one too - if I am honest it jarred on me because it triggered the intense injustice I feel about me validating their feelings and being ok with their opinions differing, while I am not 'allowed' to have my own feelings, but if that's not an indication that I have some work to do there then I don't know what is!

I had the same reaction when I first learned of it.  It was a punch to the gut for sure.  And it pissed me off.  

The beautiful thing is that you are allowed to have your own feelings though!  Differentiation is when you can recognize that your opinions are valid because they are... .not because your mom or your sister or anyone else recognizes them as valid.  Differentiation = freedom.  

Writing this sounds absurd because of the amount of times I have explained boundaries and looking after yourself to other people who struggle with this - despite the fact that I am currently completely incapable of doing this myself.

      Seeing other peoples stuff is easy.  That is the great thing about being here and reading and joining others threads.  It is more than connecting.  It is about seeing in them what you might need to work on for yourself and helping them work out solutions helps us.  It all comes full circle.  

I think in all of this I have realised how little self esteem I have and how great my need is to have someone to tell me that I have some worth.  Which I now realise needs to come from within, rather than someone else.

Yes, it needs to come from within... .but until you get to that point we here can remind you over and over again.  

You have worth.  You are valuable.  You matter.

 

ps  You can read more about differentiation here:  https://thebowencenter.org/theory/  I have been wanting to get a thread going on this topic for a while now so if you want to read more it will b3e great.  I have a lot to learn about it too.  

[LeneLu]

Dear, dear Lafemmevert,

Reading through this is like reading my own story.  EVERYTHING you said, I have said.  “Am I the crazy one?” “Did I misread that situation?” along with so much more.

My maternal grandmother was BPD, my mother inherited some traits, my sister got them all. I have been no-contact with her for two years.  It started with a request that I sent her asking her to “find a different way of expressing her anger to me,” after she verbally attacked me about a mistake I made.  I got back a barrage of anger, blame, accusations and threats.  But most notably, I was told, “I am not the problem, you are.” Sound familiar? I also have never had my feelings validated and am told what to feel, and when (To this day... .just two weeks ago, my mother called me to tell me that I need to “appreciate” my sister.)

I, too, doubt myself, behaviors and intentions.  But part of what they won’t take responsibility for is their role in the dynamic.  My sis is very critical of other people--of things I would never think to notice--and often shares her thoughts with me. I usually don’t say anything, because contradicting is a no-no. But, then it gets interpreted as agreement and later turns it on me as being negative and “unhappy in your life” completely disregarding that she initiated it.  When I read “Walking on Eggshells”, I definitely related to some of the emotions and behaviors that were mentioned and thought “um, actually... .that is me”.  But like any disorder, we all have some traits (we are human).   Furthermore, I was RAISED in that dynamic.  My sis is five years older.  Between her and my mom, I didn’t stand a chance at normalcy--again, there is no recognition of the influence of their behaviors on me.

Many people in our family recognize her behavior and have dealt with her wrath.  Many people empathize with me just hearing the story.  Everyone tells me “there is nothing you can do” but emotionally divest myself. That is what is so frustrating about this situation.  I am a “fixer” (and pleaser, just like you.) She is not backing down; but I can’t now that I have come this far with my no-contact boundary.  If I did, I would be doomed to a life of setting aside my needs for hers.   There is no convincing or persuading that is effective, even if she would talk to me.  I know that no-contact is supposed to be harder at first, because the BPD doesn’t really know how to deal with it. But, I sense that this is going to last a long time.

There is so much that I could cite in your post that I relate to.  So, please know that you are not alone and you can "call" me anytime (thru a private message if you like) to vent and share tactics.

[Lafemmevert]

Dear Harri,

Thanks for your comments, they all make complete sense!  Funnily enough a few days ago something has clicked in me and I feel far more positive than I have for a long time. I think it has finally sunk in that all of this is far more about my family's own insecurities than it is about my unworthiness to be loved, which feels very empowering for me and far less personal.  Having said that I have also realised I have some issues I would like to work on so have compiled a list to talk through with my counsellor... .Work in progress!

I will definitely read up on differentiation and a thread on it would be really interesting too.  I really like finding new things to learn about and it's not something I have come across before, yet even from what you've explained I can see how some of the things that make me really uncomfortable with my family could be down to this - my Mum and sister are always invited to my birthday dos with my friends and I always find it uncomfortable - I feel I should invite them because they expect to be invited and the thought of hurting their feelings feels too overwhelming for me, plus I don't know how to handle the guilt or guilt trips that come with not inviting them, but on the flip side I find it really weird that at 33 my Mum comes to my birthdays and hangs out with my friends.  I have often noticed that none of my other friends invite their parents to their birthdays, or are expected to.  Maybe this is something to do with it?  I will read up and evaluate!

I can't believe how nice it is to speak to people that understand without having to try to explain the crazy, disorientating behaviour.  I am so glad I joined this, thank you to all who have engaged with my post!  I think you're right about it being easier to spot it in other people too.

Dear LeneLu,

That does sound the same! I'm sorry you've had a similar experience - it's definitely not pleasant!  It's funny what you said about being 'unhappy in your life' - my sister too has said this on her last email to me - 'if I can't be happy this year (I got married) than there is something wrong with me'.  Which is ironic because I am perfectly happy in my life, just not at all with my relationship with her.  My Mum also said something similar at one of the counselling sessions.

I agree with not standing a chance of normalcy - I have since been reading a book about narcissists - called 'why is it always about you?' - and I have come to realise a couple of things... .firstly that my sister's behaviour seems to have started at borderline and moved on to narcissism, or possibly a mixture of the two.  And secondly that I actually have far better boundaries than I thought I did.  It has made me realise while I have been learning that while I have been perpetually surrounding myself with people that behave in the same way, from previous relationships to work environments, which needs some investigating as to why I would put myself through this, actually I think I have had quite 'normal' reactions to this dysfunctional behaviour.  Although I haven't quite mastered what to actually do to protect myself in these situations.  I am surprised how 'normal' I have turned out, considering!

I am glad that many people in your family recognise her behaviour, I think it's really positive when someone else can shine a light on it all.  It's also true about emotionally divesting - but it's so painful! It seems so simple to me - i.e. just to treat each other with a little care and respect - that I find it baffling that this perpetual drama is the easier option to them.  Particularly my sister, who is very sensitive about 'not having any friends' - yet refuses to see how her behaviour and lack of compassion drives people away.  But I am trying to accept that that is her responsibility to see and nothing I do or say will ever change that.  So far it's only been a week or so of no contact although I have done it before but then got back in touch with her after about 6 months.  I think it will probably be the same as you to be honest - I can't imagine that's she's going to take any responsibility for her part in it all any time soon, or ever for that matter.  But I think I'm finally feeling ok with that provided I am respecting myself, which actually feels less painful (so far) than what I was feeling before when I was trying to get them to understand how I feel.

Ditto re the private messages!

Thanks again all, what a lovely, supportive community this is!

[Harri]

Hi!  I am glad you are feeling good about posting here and that my reply made sense!  haha  That makes me feel good too.
 

I think it has finally sunk in that all of this is far more about my family's own insecurities than it is about my unworthiness to be loved, which feels very empowering for me and far less personal.

Can you hear my wild applause here?     It is empowering and so true.  Very little has to do with you and who you are and therefore it says nothing about you and your value as a person!

I think you are on to something with self-differentiation having something to do with the guilt surrounding your b-day celebration.  I am glad you will be looking into it with your T.    We are all works in progress and it is all good.  Like Lenelu said, we all have some traits (or something to work on) plus we were raised in dysfunction.  Of course we have some areas to work on.  It would be more weird if we did not!

Looking forward to hearing more from you.   

[LeneLu]

Lafemmevert,

I used to invite my sister to outings with my friends... .until the last time!  She was visibly upset that she was not the center of attention and took an opportunity to get a laugh from the group... .by embarrassing me.  (She was also pissed that the bill was split evenly instead of by item.  She was mad at me for not telling the group how she wanted to do it on her behalf.)

I have consciously not invited her to anything that my friends would be at since.  I set a boundary.  But, unless she has noticed that I haven't invited her since, I don't know that it has had any effect. This is how a lot of my boundaries have been set over the years, in reaction to an incident.  All I can do is say to myself, "I won't do that again." Now I have a long list... .travel, parties, dinner with my in-laws.  I don't know if she has caught on or not.  It is sort of passive-aggressive.  But, it is a conscious step I have to take to protect myself, before I even realized what I was doing.

I think in your case, it might be noticed if they weren't included.  What would be the consequence of that? How could you explain it in a direct but compassionate way?

lenelou

[Lafemmevert]

Hi LeneLu and Harri,

Sorry for the delayed reply. I hope everyone had a nice Christmas and New Year? How quickly it all flies by!

Things have been up and down... .I did see my Mum over Christmas and while it was fine and there weren't any huge dramas or anything, I was far more aware of how many digs she makes at me.  It felt like I was observing the situation without being inside myself if that makes sense?  Sort of watching without it having any emotional effect on me.

So I took that as positive... .I have finally accepted her for who she is.  However, we had another session with the counsellor and it was utterly ridiculous.  I said to the T that I was feeling much calmer about it all, like something has clicked inside of me.  I didn't want to go into too much detail because I thought there was not a huge amount I could say without it either a) being quite hurtful to Mum or b) seeming like I was saying it to get a reaction from her, so I left it at that really.

When the T asked Mum how she was she said 'she's not talking to her sister!' (?) Picture a five year old telling tales on a classmate at school and you will get the tone of voice that was used.  I mean seriously?  I calmly explained that I'm not not talking to her, but she has said some really nasty things to me recently and I would like an apology.  As she point blank refuses to speak to me unless I am happy to pretend everything is normal (as usual) then I really don't see what else I can do.  Mum then went on to tell me that I am wrong and my reasons for being upset are wrong and I was the one in the wrong and what she said to me isn't even very nasty etc etc etc.

I managed to keep my calm for about 15-20 minutes then the rest of the session was basically us shouting at each other.  The T even made a judgement about something I said - something that had upset me in the past - which I have been feeling really angry about all week.  I'm not going there to have yet another person that my feels are invalid.

Anyway on the plus side, I have realised from all of this that my whole issue with them is invalidation.  And it has made me realises in how many ways they both invalidate me.  So at least I have something I can figure out and work on now!  Re Mum - I'm done.  I'm going for medium chill and nothing else.

LeneLu - I don't see how else you could set a boundary with her without being slightly passive aggressive - I imagine it's not like you can have a 'normal' conversation with her and she will magically show you some respect? Re your question about what would be the consequence of me not including her... .I have actually done that a few times in the past.  From my sis the consequence is that she ignores me so we end up in this weird situation where I'm not sure what is going on as she won't speak to me.  But the main consequence comes from Mum... .who will repeatedly attack me until I back down.  Ironically I once uninvited her from my birthday do, Mum actually suggested it and I thought it was a good idea, and now Mum brings it up every so often saying that sis is still upset about it.  Take the current example... .Mum keeps having a go at me or trying to guilt trip me into backing down, even though she hasn't once asked me why I am upset with her, what I am feeling or what I want.  She has decided that I am in the wrong just because I am not allowed to dare set boundaries with my sis.  Which actually makes me really angry with both her and my sister!  Re being firm but compassionate... .I have found that nothing but a solid brick wall works with boundaries with them - any type of compassion, discussion or felt means it will be completely trampled over.

Sorry I'm not very good at keeping these brief!  I have been pretty distressed this week after that session but am feeling bit more positive today about planning some steps to get myself out of this cycle once and for all.

How are you both?

x

[Panda39]

Things have been up and down... .I did see my Mum over Christmas and while it was fine and there weren't any huge dramas or anything, I was far more aware of how many digs she makes at me.  It felt like I was observing the situation without being inside myself if that makes sense?  Sort of watching without it having any emotional effect on me.

Hi Lafemmevert,

What you said above very much resonated with me. I have done the very same thing with my mother.  It's like you are in the interaction but also observing the interaction... .you were in what we would call "wisemind" I have found that is a safe place for me to be when interacting with my mother.  It allows me to see rationally what is going on and not have an emotional kneejerk reaction. 

My mom will do things like cut me off when I'm telling a story that she doesn't want to hear for example.  It used to really hurt my feelings when she did this... .you are right on the money when you talk about being invalidated I felt the same.  What being in "wisemind" helped me with was understanding that cutting me off is her issue, it isn't about me and I can stop taking it personally.  She is being rude but her cutting me off doesn't mean that I am not worth listening to.  I look at it as she lost yet another opportunity to really know me and be closer to me.  Frankly, I have a lot of other people in my life that like/love me just as I am and will listen to my stories all day (and probably more than once!).  It's sadly her loss.

More on Wisemind... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=64749.0

When the T asked Mum how she was she said 'she's not talking to her sister!' (?) Picture a five year old telling tales on a classmate at school and you will get the tone of voice that was used.  I mean seriously? 

She's baiting you here, next time try not to pick up the bait and engage her.  People with BPD in order to make themselves feel better about themselves need to make others around them seem like the bad guy, or the stupid guy, or the drama causing guy or whatever.  She was pushing your buttons trying to get an emotional reaction out of you so she looked like the calm rational guy while you looked like the emotional not in control guy.

Try not to JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain) this will just lead you right into a circular argument that goes no where.

More on JADE... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0

A better response to the comment about you and your sister might have been, yes we aren't getting along right now but that isn't why we are here... .don't pick up the bait.  The more you get into "wisemind" the easier it will be to see this stuff and not react to it.  This is all new stuff and will take practice like learning anything else new.

Take Care,
Panda39

[Libra]

Bonjour Lafemmevert,

I managed to keep  my calm for about 15-20 minutes then the rest of the session was basically us shouting at each other.

This was where I was with my mother one year ago. Not in a session, but at her home, when I was trying in vain to make amends for something I hadn’t done in the first place. It is a frustrating, invalidating, unpleasant place to be at. It can get better though.  I found myself a therapist, I found this site, and I started to work on myself. The support, understanding and tools here truly are invaluable.

Anyway on the plus side, I have realised from all of this that my whole issue with them is invalidation.  And it has made me realises in how many ways they both invalidate me.

Yes. Not being validated. For me that is also at the core. I spent years yearning for validation, hoping to be seen and heard. It was a painful process to realize and accept that I would never receive any of that from my mother.

I am so sorry that your mother and sister cannot see you for the whole, worthy and beautiful person you truly are. 

Our unique Panda has given you some great tools. I can only concur that not picking up the bait really does help. It takes some effort, but it does make a difference. Every time my mother tries to put the blame or responsibility for her stuff on me, I simply no longer react. Her stuff is hers to manage, I no longer feel responsible. Her feelings are hers to feel, I cannot change them and I have no control over them.

Being able to observe what is happening in your family dynamic, and accepting you mother for who she truly is are huge steps forward. How are you feeling after these realizations?

Libra