Very rough night

[Ozzie101]

I think I might have saved (temporarily?) my marriage last night. And I'm not sure I'm glad about that.

Here's what happened.

We had a group of friends over for dinner last night. This was also SS8's last day of school until January so he had his class party. H went (when did parents going to kids' school parties become a thing? In my day, a room mom might be there to help the teacher but that was it), then took SS8 out to buy gifts for SS8's mom. I worked all day, then went to the store, came home to help clean up. I showered, H made some of the food and I did some. Friends came and we were all having a great time.

We made fajitas (first time) and they turned out great. All the adults got two. H got one. He can be weird about food. After we'd eaten, I mentioned there was plenty more. One friend said he was going back for another and H did too, but conversation went on, along with watching some videos on Youtube and everyone was having a great time. Well, after at least an hour, the friends started talking about wanting dessert (which a friend had brought). I said sure and cleared the plates with H's help. We both went into the kitchen and I told him "There's plenty if you want to make another one." He said "No, I don't need it," and ate a couple of chips with guacamole and beef on them, then went in the other room. I then packed up most of the food and put it in the fridge 1) to make room for dessert stuff and 2) so it wouldn't go bad. He came back in and I could tell he was annoyed that I'd put stuff away. I pointed out "It just went in the fridge. Here I'll get it back out." "No! No. Forget it. It's already in the fridge." Stomped off to the dining room.

He was sullen the rest of the evening.

After everyone left and SS8 was in the bathtub upstairs, I was putting dishes in the dishwasher and finishing cleaning up. H started in on me about being "the food police." "Well, they could have at least left some of the dessert for us after the Food Nazi put everything away." I calmly and nicely pointed out that there was plenty of food left in the refrigerator and he was welcome to it both earlier and now. He said I came straight in and packed everything up before he even had a chance to say or do anything. I reminded him that the food had still been out when he'd come into the kitchen the first time and he'd eaten a few bites. I'd offered to let him fix another fajita and he'd refused.

He denied that. Said I'd packed it all away. Said he watched me put everything in the fridge. He said there were three things I'd put in there the first time he came in. I said, "Yes, the sour cream (two containers) and the cheese. The meat, veggies and tortillas were still out."
H: No. there was one with a red lid.
M: I didn't put anything with a red lid in there.
I was confused. He threw open the door. We looked inside. The only two red lids were containers holding leftover chili from the night before and my lunch for the next day.
H: You show me where it is. You show me where you didn't put the container with the red lid. (No, that's not a typo.) Prove to me you didn't put it in there.

I had known already that he was dysregulating but at this point could REALLY see it. I just nodded and went on about what I was doing. Apologized for his not feeling like he got enough and, again, reminded him he could eat whatever he wanted in there. He said he hadn't eaten all day and hadn't had time for lunch (he brought his lunch containers home and they were all empty but I didn't point that out to him).

He accused me of thinking he's fat. Of not wanting him to eat things. Of hating how he looks. I calmly and gently told him I didn't think of him that way at all and wanted him to eat whatever he wants.

He tried to go in again about my packing stuff up -- said "Stupid. You can't do anything right." Name-calling. I told him, "This isn't constructive. We remember things differently. Let's just agree to disagree. I'm not discussing it anymore."

Well, he did NOT like that. I went back to loading the dishwasher and as he kept asking questions and demanding I agree with him, I just kept working. He got right up to the side of my face and SCREAMED "HELLLLOO?"
I still didn't respond, though my heart was really hammering by then.
I stepped away and dried my hands on the towel hanging on the oven door. He walked over to me and stood right in front of me, about an inch away -- we actually bumped. He was immovable. I stepped to the side. He followed. Have I mentioned he's 5.5 inches taller and 60 pounds heavier?

I can't remember what happened next. More arguing I think.

He went up to get SS8 to bed and I went up to wash my face, brush my teeth and just get away from him to decompress.

Eventually, he came in. Accused me of being a "pu$$y" and hiding out. I said I just needed a little space. I could tell he was no longer in his "out of mind" state and different discussions continued -- usual stuff about how he has so much to do. About how he feels like I put my work first. About how I couldn't even be bothered to come to SS8's class party. Did I mention we're about to go out of town for a week and I have a LOT of work to take care of in preparation? I work at a newspaper. Vacation or no, the work and responsibilities don't stop.

Eventually, the subject of what happened in the kitchen came up. He was calmer, so I felt safe mentioning the problem with it: calling me names, screaming in my face, blocking me.

He almost literally laughed it off. Said I just can't handle conflict. That he wasn't penning me in or holding on to me or anything. I could have walked around him, or turned and gone the other way. Not a big deal. He literally hand-waved it.

Anyway, we both admitted there were major problems in the marriage. In the end, he said he was going to work on being more relaxed about the family situation (one of his biggest triggers) and was still waiting to hear back on anger management. He did say that he was a source of a lot of it. But he also said I'm very cold and reserved -- which I know is true. It's how I am. Emotions get high, I go cold. I said the more he lashes out and tries to get a rise out of me (that's what he said he was doing), the colder I become.

We agreed to work on things. In a way, I feel like I owe that to him. But there's a part of me that's disappointed. In a way, I want it to be over. Earlier that night, after the kitchen, I decided "That's it. I'm going to talk to the DV counselor about a safety plan and end this marriage. I'm not living like this." Then he started talking about working on things. Maybe it's genuine. Maybe it's manipulation. I fell for it. But a big part of my love for and trust in him died last night. I have a call in to my counselor to talk through this.

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[Ozzie101]

Spoke to a counselor (my regular one is on vacation but spoke to her colleague). She assured me that I didn't exaggerate or overreact. That what he did was classic abusive behavior and his denial/diminishing afterwards was also textbook.

I'm feeling very lost and confused. At this point, I just don't see the relationship lasting. If he had admitted to what he had done and apologized or been frightened or horrified by it, I might feel differently. The fact that he defended and (literally) hand-waved it makes my blood cold.

When my counselor is back and I'm back too, we'll work on tools and a safety plan.

I just don't know if I can keep doing this. Despite leaving things in a decent place last night, I just know it will happen again. My regular counselor told me: "No matter what, unless he really sees a problem, gets good help and does a LOT of work, this will not get better. If anything, it's likely to get worse."

[Red5]

Good Morning Ozzie !

... .a big part of my love for and trust in him died last night.

Very sorry about what you had to endure last evening... .seems (seemed) to come out of nowhere doesn't it, I remember trying my level best to "clear a path" for my own uBPDw... .sometimes I was successful, but most times I was not.

It is exhausting I know.

The endless snipes, snarky remarks, and other "nasties" that come out of the pw/BPD's mouth, not to mention physical altercations, scrapes, and "passive aggressive's"  ... .even if we try to "not take it personally", gets very very old after a while, like over years... .tough stuff.

Over the years, I (tried) learned to identify many of her triggers... .but seemed there were always new ones... .

And one of the things (anomalies) that perplexed me the most, .was that when a hard "lesson" was learned, ie' like a knock down drag out end of the world fight, you'd think that the boundary, or "miss-understanding" would be cemented after such an event, .like "we don't ever want to do that to each other again"... .but _no_... .even after (in my case)... .almost eight years of marriage, there is still the potential of a huge "out of nowhere" altercation, and another "didn't see that coming (again) senario"... .you'd think that we'd have learnt a thing or two about living with each other after eight years of marriage, and four years dating prior... .but that's not (was not) the case, it is (was) still an everyday struggle with pw/BPD... .in my case, W is udx... .

I've had several "a big part of my love for and trust in him died last night" nights with my uBPDw, .but the last time it occurred, and again, "out of nowhere"... .it seems to have been the end, as we are now separated.

My regular counselor told me: "No matter what, unless he really sees a problem, gets good help and does a LOT of work, this will not get better. If anything, it's likely to get worse."

... .unfortunately, ^this^ is very true... .and its taken years and years for me to come to this realization... .

Take good care of yourself Ozzie!... .and be careful, keep posting,

Kind regards, Red5

[Ozzie101]

And one of the things (anomalies) that perplexed me the most, ... .was that when a hard "lesson" was learned, ie' like a knock down drag out end of the world fight, you'd think that the boundary, or "miss-understanding" would be cemented after such an event, ... .like "we don't ever want to do that to each other again" ... .but _no_ ... .even after (in my case) ... .almost eight years of marriage, there is still the potential of a huge "out of nowhere" altercation, and another "didn't see that coming (again) senario" ... .you'd think that we'd have learnt a thing or two about living with each other after eight years of marriage, and four years dating prior ... .but that's not (was not) the case, it is (was) still an everyday struggle with pw/BPD ... .in my case, W is udx ... .

H is udx too. And yes. I keep falling into this trap and started to do it again last night. He stops dysregulating and becomes normal again and it seems like, "OK, maybe we turned a corner." I start to feel like I owe it to him to give him a chance to change. But more and more, I'm seeing that this is just going to keep happening. I don't think I want to have this be my life for years. I just can't do that. I want to be happy and enjoy my life and surround myself with people I care about. I hate this because I still love the man I thought he was. But this demon is a part of him too.

When he's raging and then again when he's not quite raging but still in an "episode," it's like I can see the hamster slipping in the wheel. I recorded part of our conversation last night and listened to it again this morning. I can hear it. He says something completely irrational. I respond very calmly with a more rational point of view. You can almost hear him mentally stumble and then he says, "Well, yes... .Yes... ." It's like the hamster is climbing back into the wheel.

It makes me sad. But it also scares me. It just seems like it would not be a far step for him to lose it completely.

[isilme]

He accused me of thinking he's fat. Of not wanting him to eat things. Of hating how he looks. I calmly and gently told him I didn't think of him that way at all and wanted him to eat whatever he wants.

Here is the crux of the trigger issue.  He did not eat two fajitas at first, likely because he felt fat, was trying to not look like a pig in front of guests, and being "on display" in front of guests two times in the same day (kids' party, too) started the dysregulation chain.  My husband is weird about eating in front of people.  He will pick at food, not eat enough to stave off his sugar issues or forgo eating altogether if he gets distracted in conversation.  He will literally "forget" to eat, and be mad later, or sick from it, or both.

And, he is embarrassed so easily, he worries he looks like a pig eating at all.  To him, the whole world is watching every movement in order to judge him and criticize him - if someone looks at him at all, he assumes they are making fun of him.  If strangers laugh in earshot, it's about him.  He can't believe that people, in general, don't care about strangers other than to try to not walk into them in public.  

My H has accused me of playing food police simply because the honey or chocolate syrup has gotten obscured behind another item - you need the cooking spray, grabbing it in our small kitchen might mean something else gets shifted over, around, or something placed in front of it.  H thought I'd thrown out the nestle quick because I was trying to police his sugar intake.  Nope.  It was just behind something.  He feels fat, hates his appearance, is not taking aging well at all, nor having type II diabetes, now.  His emotional swings are partly tied to his sugar levels I have learned, and so I know getting him to eat something somewhat balanced, (even a burger is better than nothing, it has SOME protein) helps keep it to him being snippy, irritated, but the rage is kept at bay.

Since he can't be at fault for his feelings, they must be pushed off onto you.  Telling him that he was free to come to get food at any time, even after it's in the fridge, well, to him, it's blaming him, and everything after that is a form of JADEing - you were politely, but still defending, justifying, and arguing your point.  So he will fight tooth and nail about it not being his fault.  And he will minimize how much he fought you, later, also to avoid blame.  Once you can see that a BIG issue is mental gymnastics to avoid blame, you can see ways to dodge some of these encounters.    

When I sense there is a dysregulation starting, going on, I start the plain vanilla routine.  I respond with "Ok."  "Sure".  Even if he is saying I did XYZ,

Days when I've missed the signs, or it just happened really quickly, I have JADE-ed and been stuck in the kitchen, trapped, no way to get out or around him, too.  I am sorry.    I find all I can do is wait it out, and respond in ways that will do my best to diminish the rage at this point, until I can get to a better location.  It can take a while.  By the time a bag of steamed broccoli is thrown at me, I realize things are in a bad place.

I think in this case, there was a lot going on this particular day lots of social responsibilities, lots of feeling self-conscious, self-aware, and likely, just being at the kids' thing in the early part of the day started some self-conscious feelings about later.

I disagree things can't "get better".  They won't ever be perfect, but NO relationship is without drama, fights, or stress.  BPD just makes for a particular kind of drama, fights, and stress.  Sadly, there will be times that this kind of thing happens, but you can work on planning ahead to make sure it's not this bad, or at least this bad doesn't happen as often - if you feel like staying.

almost eight years of marriage, there is still the potential of a huge "out of nowhere" altercation, and another "didn't see that coming (again) senario

Yes.  Because this is a condition based on emotional dysregulation, not based on the actual events that trigger the emotions.  I can see H gets mad playing a certain video game.  Even if he stops playing, something else will also invalidate him - invalidation is part of life.  They lack the skillset and (based on some new studies I am reading) the physical brain connections and development fo emotional regulation.  You and I can most often squish bad feelings away, rationalize how we can react better, see solace in finding a solution to a problem, and move on.  for a pwBPD, the emotion is unbearable.  It's forever to them.  

Ever watch Firefly?  With Nathan Fillion?  There is a character, River, who has been experimented on because she was essentially psychic - not the point.  One of the things done to her though was to strip her amygdala down... .which means she now lacks the ability to shove her unpleasant emotions deep down long enough to cope with a crisis or makes her feel panic and crisis when one is not present.

What I have learned - there is no "safe" time to bring up a past argument, especially not in the same 24-36 hour period.  Just because the thunder has stopped does not mean you go outside in the wind and the rain - it may pick up again.  

What is his "cycle" of dysregulation?  Mine goes from cranky, to rage, sometimes insane rage (stomping screaming types of things) (sometimes I see it coming, sometimes not - if I see it I can stop myself from JADEing.), to less intense rage, to silent treatment, and finally, usually 12-18 hours later, calm enough to talk to, and often he falls into toxic shame over his actions, and then he resets to about "normal".

I may just do it as a coward, but I just try to act as if the anger did not happen.  There is little to be gained from it, until he brings it up himself, often indirectly.  I keep a distance without looking like I am keeping a distance.  I usually end up folding laundry and putting it away as a good excuse to be in another room.  Most of the time he will leave me alone by this time, I am busy, I am able to accomplish a task to keep myself in emotional check, and I talk to him about simple things if needed, and then just move along.  It can suck, to be sure, but it shortens the part of active anger and gets us to the "reset" sooner.

I am sorry you had to go through this.  Although one SERIOUS question is bothering me:  where do you live that you've never cooked fajitas before?  (I'm in south Texas, )

[Red5]

I am sorry you had to go through this.  Although one SERIOUS question is bothering me:  where do you live that you've never cooked fajitas before?  (I'm in south Texas, )

Recently discovered "fajitas taco salad"... .who would've thought   

Oh' Yeah !

Red5

[Ozzie101]

Looking back, I'm well aware I was JADE-ing and that was a mistake. I know food is a big trigger for him and I knew the dysregulation was coming. A lot of what you say about your husband is true for mine as well, though in his case, he's nowhere near fat or overweight. Still, it's a big trigger, thanks in large part to his mother. I should have done what you do, and as I started to at one point, just said "Sure. OK." But then at the same time, I know him. When I've tried that in conversations before and again last night, he's continued to push. It's become very obvious that his goal isn't just to get me to say he's right (not just sure but "Yes, you're correct. I was wrong.") but to get an emotional rise out of me. He wants me to lash out and fight back. He admitted as much last night.

When the conversation picked back up after the kitchen, I was calm. Told him all was OK. Acted like nothing happened. I did eventually point out the kitchen incident, though I can't fully remember how it even came up. Seemed natural in the moment. Maybe I shouldn't have done it, but in a way I'm glad. Hearing his response was eye-opening.

I can understand what's going on and why he's like this. I feel a lot of sympathy for him and I really hate it for him. I want him to be happy and healthy. But I can't save him. I can't prop him up.

Things can get better. People can improve and change. Situations can get better. But last night, I had an epiphany: I don't want to live like this. I don't have to live like this. I love him, but I will not put myself in these situations. I'm fine with some drama, some conflict. People disagree. But I can't keep on with these disagreements, the constant belittling, the accusations, the violence, the fear and uncertainty and the knowledge that this could easily get worse.

I've had fajitas many times, just never made them. Not in Texas but close!

[Red5]

It makes me sad. But it also scares me. It just seems like it would not be a far step for him to lose it completely.

Yes, it is only a short step in escalation to go from verbal, to destructive, to actual physical abuse.

I'd never have thought, after all that our blended family has been through, over eleven+ years together, four years dating, eight married... .that my uBPDw would haul off and punch my autistic Son in his forehead ; (

Have we not been at this threshold before, many times... .like I wrote above, its perplexing that we seem to build up (tolerate) over and over, and then they "go too far"... .and this time it was not me who was getting whacked, but my Son... .and for what, because she decided he had been in his bathroom five minutes to long that morning... .so she basically cornered him & assailed him, .and he, being mentally delayed, has no way to defend himself, he was scared to death... .he was "trapped"... .and it happened in seconds... .

She is a fifty+ year old woman, she is a "grown-up"... .what in the world would have possessed her to "go looking for" a physical altercation with a "special needs person"... .

Just goes to show us, .pw/BPD can be very unpredictable... .and I never saw it coming, it unfolded in mere seconds, .and that one incident, has effectively ended this marriage.

... .just like that, "my love for and trust in her died right then and there", there is no going back... .and she has yet to take any responsivity, or even an apology... .no, she went ballistic, we had a huge argument, and she said she was done, and she moved out... .although I did tell her, as I was quite furious, and I said, "either me and the boy leave, and you can have this whole place, or you leave, but we cant live together anymore after what happened in that bathroom this morning"... .

So did I kick her out, no, I don't think so, I offered her a option, a choice, and she then chose... .

Do I still love her, .yeah, afraid so... .isn't that crazy to even comprehend... .do I miss her, yeas I do... .but it is much more peaceful in the house now that she is gone... .do I want her to come back... .right now my mind and my gut says no to that, .but my heart is still in turmoil where that is concerned... . 

Yes, please be careful Ozzie, the pw/BPD can go nuclear, in seconds, and once that rage is released, all bets are off... its the pbd-rage adrenaline rush/high thing... .flight or fight/freeze-faun... .

If your H ever crosses that threshold with you, it would be like trying to stop a catapult from releasing, once its triggered... .

Take care of you !

Red5

[Ozzie101]

I'm so sorry for what you and your son went through, Red5. I have a sister who is developmentally delayed. The thought of anyone mistreating her (or anyone with any kind of mental or physical disability) absolutely sickens me.

I'm fearing what could be another rocky night. His retirement investment accounts have dropped (he texted), which is a trigger. And my family is going to see the Mary Poppins move en masse Saturday and we're invited. Family. Another trigger. Plus a big trip coming up. Those stress him out.

I've been looking forward to this trip for months, but at the moment, I'm ambivalent about going. A part of me doesn't want to go so far away with him.

We're also supposed to turn right around and go spend a few days with his bio family for New Year's. I've already said I can't go up with him and SS8 since I need to work Dec. 31 (after having been gone for a week). He's not happy. But I really don't want to drive up Dec. 31 for the next couple of days either. Yet telling him would absolutely set him off.

[Red5]

I've been looking forward to this trip for months, but at the moment, I'm ambivalent about going. A part of me doesn't want to go so far away with him.

Trips... .ugh ; (

I cannot but remember a few trips we've taken together that uBPDw did not have some kind of meltdown, resulting in "limited rage"... .but lots of ST, and just general verbal nastie's... .

So then your trapped, no where to go... .and just plain stuck in ST, and anger, and ______ yuk!

... .if she had done that kind of behavior while we were still dating, I'd have surely broken up with her, and never called her again... .we had some pretty big fights over the four years of dating, but I dismissed it, and filed it under "post marriage anger", and being "independent" for all those years... ... .I blew past each and every red flag  !

So many triggers... .

Back when uBPDw was still working in her career, she would be the first to leave in the mornings, and the last home... .so I tried to have everything nice and "calm" for her when she returned home... .and I was working too... .house straightened, supper prepared, animals fed, and walked, .even had her freaking slippers, and a glass of wine ready for her

But NO!... .she would come through that door, and let me have it!
*Trash
*The yard
*She had to put gas in her car
*I didn't get the mail
*Dishes in the sink
etc etc etc etc'

And then she would tell me how "F'ed" up all her coworkers were, how unfair this that and the other... .then she would go out onto the back porch, and "call mum"... .and ask mum "what should I do about x-y-z&q"... .

If I'd ever acted this way, then I could STFB!

But I never did... .

She finally p-o'ed her boss, another female... .and almost gotten written up, so before that could happen, she said her /C/ dx was preventing her from further work, so she resigned... .now she is on state disability... .

Yeah, triggers... .

Be careful tonight Ozzie, seems you already know what may set him off, just try to disarm, sidestep, avoid, and stay away, should your H become "unraveled"... .

We are all sending you good karma!

Hang in there, Red5

 

[isilme]

When I've tried that in conversations before and again last night, he's continued to push. It's become very obvious that his goal isn't just to get me to say he's right (not just sure but "Yes, you're correct. I was wrong.") but to get an emotional rise out of me. He wants me to lash out and fight back. He admitted as much last night.

Yes.  It's not about being right or wrong.  This is a concept to let go.  it's about the EMOTIONS tied to being right or wrong, to be the one who is blamed, to feel embarrassed, etc.  They need their emotions validated by us sharing them.  So, if they feel upset, they will try to start a fight so 1) we are also upset, sharing the experience of being upset.  It's less invalidating for them if we, too, are upset. 2) so they can ret-con the exchange to state WE started the fight in the first place, to maintain the status of blameless. 

This is why I think it's so important to look beyond the stated issue, the issue they are screaming about, and say, "ok, what's REALLY going on?" 

Also, my H is also not fat, but he thinks he is.  And this colors his feelings and thoughts about himself, me, my weight, and how people see him, and I am absorbed into his circle of self-consciousness.  He has gone back to a junior high coping method of wearing a jacket even on warm days because he feels fat and wants to hide himself.  They do not quite live in our reality.  This is why things that seem like nothing to us are tsunamis to them.

We, the "nons", focus on the tangible -  "what's the problem?  the food is not on the counter, well here it is, is that better?"  For a person with a decent level of emotional regulatory ability, this is a normal, simple conversation.  It's done in less than 2 minutes, everyone forgets about it, and moves on.  We identify the problem, fix it, done.

But for a pwBPD, there's all this invisible background static going on in their brains, and we often aren't aware of it till their speakers blow and all the feedback comes out blaring at us. 
The problem, in this case, was "I feel you put the food away because you were secretly telling me I am fat and eat too much, so I am going to be mad at you since you are obviously mad at me first.  And since you were mean first, I am justified in being mad."  The "problem" is not whether the food is accessible... .it's how he feels about whether he should eat it. 

I know it's crazy.  And I hate hearing how much others also have to deal with     

I've been cautioned on here about trying to keep exits open, and I try to keep my purse with my keys and phone near the door if I find I really need to leave.  I tend to refuse and will stick to my guns if he asks me to leave because I'm not playing that game.  I will leave if I feel I can and I feel unsafe, but I will not be kicked out of my home, (again.  My father kicked me out, which is why H does it.  Again, he is seeking to trigger emotions in me that match how much hurt he feels at that moment). 

Holidays are big triggers.  travel, separations due to travel, and being off work and having no set schedule all make BPD worse. 

[Ozzie101]

Definitely big trigger time.

I understand what you mean about BPD thought processes. I'm still so early in it that, in the moment, I find it hard to remember that and use the tools I've been learning. In that, I failed and I knew that last night. It escalated things.

Perverse as it may be, I find myself almost hoping he'll kick me out or hit me or push me just so this can be over and I can be out. Makes me sick to type that, but it's how I feel right now.