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How to communicate after a contentious divorce... Following a contentious divorce and custody battle, there are often high emotion and tensions between the parents. Research shows that constant and chronic conflict between the parents negatively impacts the children. The children sense their parents anxiety in their voice, their body language and their parents behavior. Here are some suggestions from Dean Stacer on how to avoid conflict.
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Author Topic: As good as it gets - should I stay like that?  (Read 1007 times)
SamwizeGamgee
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« on: January 10, 2019, 03:11:00 PM »

I meant to post on the Staying page, my ideas over the last several months.  I have been able to establish and maintain peace in my home.  Mostly by me keeping good habits and boundaries, I don't trigger uBPDw, or my son much.  For a lot of reasons, home life has been quite a bit better than the first 18 years or so of marriage.  That is to say, the overall mood.    You won't notice open conflict at my house anymore.  My S14 will flair up, but that's his mix of autism, and what starts to look like BPD, unfortunately.  My wife is good enough at putting on her "good side" and overall we maintain. 

What has happened over the many months is that I have totally shut down connection to my wife.  I can't let her into my heart or mind anymore.  It's just not there, not possible I think.  We are separated emotionally in my opinion.  The price for peace has been paid.

I have been composing a post in my head that was meant to say "things are as good as they get, so I'll just go along to get along."  I'm accepting my place in life, and my responsibility for getting, and staying, married for 21+ years, as well as having kids.  I find myself in sort of the family relations version of "you made your bed, now you have to sleep in it."

Somehow, my feelings towards my wife concerning many things in a relationship like food, sex, money, company, love, spousal affection / respect / bonding / intimacy, are just gone cold.  I feel a void where there used to be at least a need, or an obvious lack, if not a desire.  Now, nothing.

I meant to make this post after my long silence to be one of just accepting what is, and deciding to go for the long haul in a loveless marriage.  For the kids, for the benefits, for the convenience, for the stability.  I have finally achieved the proverbial patience and long suffering of a Buddhist Monk.

That was until about two days ago.  Recently, I have gotten a few things in my life in a better standing.  Not the least of which was (finally) a sense that I was reconnecting with my maker.  I had felt the heavens were mostly closed to me.  I felt that I was making the best of a bitter situation, but, I had turned on God, as he left me to do what I would.  Recently I feel more connection, maybe more purpose and a desire to live again - sort of like the story in "It's a Wonderful Life" in which George Bailey finally tells God he wants to live again.  This spirit is bringing back a feeling I had thought gone.  Although it's much fainter now, I remember vividly leaving a T session as though I was walking on clouds when I told myself that I had to get divorced or I would die of something. Which sounds dramatic, but, I felt very positive and sure that I had to get divorced.  I remember my exuberant joy bursting out with the idea that I could be out of my marriage.

Reality, time, and things like child care, finances, possibilities of parental alienation and endless financial abuse, and just the daily rituals drown out that spirit and inner voice.  I learned lots.  I healed lots.  I grew lots.  I got better, lots.

Today though, I post the post I wasn't planning on.  Maybe that small voice is moving me again.  Maybe "as good as it gets" isn't as good as it can be. Or should be.  Maybe I should be re-making my bed. 

Which is uncomfortable.  Because I thought I had arrived.  It's easier sometimes to rest and remain in our dysfunction than to break the chains that have hurt us. 

I now have even less of a fresh argument to divorce, as uBPDw acts much better now.  Our superficial and calm relationship together is observably cool, but not violent, abusive, and I can't pinpoint a clearly articulated deal-killer for the marriage.  However, I see this on my part as just good diplomacy.  I feel like I'm the guy negotiating the nuclear treaty - and respect and calm decorum are vital to everyone's survival.  Which is so true in my reality. 

I'm posting this post pretty much exactly opposite of what I was planning. 

I guess I find myself in the middle again.  But, perhaps change is due.  Maybe I'm saying this in a public post to see how it resonates with others who undoubtedly have been there, in the same situation.

Have you stayed because it was as good as it gets?
I suspect I know a few who have.  And that's honorable too.
Have you broken the peace, gotten out of the status quo?
Done the crazy thing and gone for separation and divorce in spite of apparent peace and lack of recent abuses?
I also believe I know some who have.
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worriedStepmom
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« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2019, 03:38:58 PM »

Which is uncomfortable.  Because I thought I had arrived.  It's easier sometimes to rest and remain in our dysfunction than to break the chains that have hurt us. 

I now have even less of a fresh argument to divorce, as uBPDw acts much better now.  Our superficial and calm relationship together is observably cool, but not violent, abusive, and I can't pinpoint a clearly articulated deal-killer for the marriage.  However, I see this on my part as just good diplomacy.  I feel like I'm the guy negotiating the nuclear treaty - and respect and calm decorum are vital to everyone's survival.  Which is so true in my reality. 


I read an article (which I can't find now) that says that people with BPD are right to fear abandonment.  Often, if they start getting better,  their loved ones do actually leave them.  Because when you see the pwBPD actually mange to control themselves, and you realize that they could have done this all along, but for whatever reason they didn't... .well, the hurts that were inflicted can sometimes be too deep to heal.

You don't have to have an ironclad reason to get a divorce.  You don't have to have an ironclad reason to stay, either.  You don't have to justify your decisions to her or to us or to anyone else.  "This marriage no longer works for me / we've lost our emotional intimacy and I don't want to get it back" - that's a good enough reason to leave.   "This is my comfort zone and I'm afraid of the outcome of changing it" - that's a good enough reason to stay, although I'd encourage you to work more with your therapist in that case.

My parents stayed married for the kids.  So did my ex's parents.  We learned all kinds of really awful coping skills and not a lot of great "how-to-build-a-good-marriage" skills from them.  I'm quite hopeful that my kids will be better off and make wiser relationship decisions, because they saw their dad and I acknowledge our mistakes and insist that we deserved better than we had.
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SamwizeGamgee
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« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2019, 11:02:55 AM »

Bullet: comment directed to __ (click to insert in post) Ws - I have read, and re-read, and pondered your reply.  Thank you.
I appreciate your phrasing of the two choices as you do.  Simply "this marriage isn't working for me and I can't do the work to get back into it" and on the other hand, "I have figured out how to survive, and I have a lot of other happiness in my life from things other than marriage, and I don't mind dealing with marriage as is, in order to continue the status quo of the good things I like right now" are a summary of what keeps me ambivalent.

In the last two days, my inner anger has been creeping up.  I realize that I'm being triggered too.  My wife did things, to include taking my D11 out when we (D11 and I) had already decided on activities for our mutual day off (yesterday).  This used up D11's day, as they were gone until dinner.  This put me in a reactionary sort of angry mood.  I had a hard time being productive (and thoughtful) for the day.  Anyway, it showed me that I can be controlling and easily triggered too.  Leave it to me to feel guilty for being the abuser now that I've read up, and am aware of abuse!   Fortunately, I stayed positive around the kids, and was more or less glum rather than outwardly angry with my wife.  I was able to rationally talk to W about how I felt too, and that D11 and I had wanted to do things we planned too.  There's more to that story too, as later in the evening, she made some more moves to detour what I was doing with the kids.

All told though, this is a good example to me that maybe I'd be better off going through the potentially destructive hurricane of a divorce and having (albeit limited, and court-controlled) time to parent my kids, my way, on my time. 

I'm realizing that my heart yearns for divorce, while my wallet, and rational, logical, and legal-minded, side says to stay married and ride out the good and the bad.  Perhaps my heart wanting to end this is stirring up my anger.  And for me at home, I'm mostly like Mr. Rogers.  So, this is my angry face ;)  I don't know if there's an angry side of Mr. Rogers.  But, I have some deep currents of emotions that never get to flair up.

I think this deep desire and following anger is a sign. Maybe this life isn't "as good as it gets," as I had arrived at over the preceding months.
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ForeverDad
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« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2019, 12:14:09 PM »

I read an article (which I can't find now) that says that people with BPD are right to fear abandonment.  Often, if they start getting better,  their loved ones do actually leave them.  Because when you see the pwBPD actually mange to control themselves, and you realize that they could have done this all along, but for whatever reason they didn't... .well, the hurts that were inflicted can sometimes be too deep to heal.

You don't have to have an ironclad reason to get a divorce.  You don't have to have an ironclad reason to stay, either.

Other reasons to end the relationship are... .that you gain a measure of control over your life.  Your spouse, unless in meaningful therapy, will continue to whiplash you all over the map.  If you get out and the ex tries to lure you back there is real risk that the distance apart was what reduced the conflict, jumping back in would restart the chaos all over again.  The court, though slow and inclined to make only incremental improvements, is very likely to be "less unfair" than whatever your ex-spouse demands.  In addition, by not tolerating and acquiescing to the constant demands, by establishing a separate but stable home, your children will see a good example of parenting, something they will need when they grow up and seek their own adult relationships.

This is not to say you can't manage the relationship.  Most of those who divorced or ended their relationships here couldn't find a level of connection or cooperation to maintain a relationship.

One of our most prolific posters some 5-10 years ago was JoannaK.  She wrote that if persons do work to attain some recovery from BPD then they would not be the same persons as before and there was a real possibility the relationship would not survive or be restarted, one or both had changed that much.
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« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2019, 06:23:59 AM »

I've been pondering my last post.  For you, what's different now as compared to a few years ago when you arrived?  Perhaps some of these... .

  • I've learned how to set effective boundaries since my ex will try to sabotage them, as in "If you ___ then I will ___."
  • I've taken ownership of only my issues.
  • I avoid as much as possible allowing my spouse to occupy rent-free space in my head.
  • I am doing better with parenting and not letting my spouse interfere (as much).

Can you, will you stay?  Your call, your choice.  Right now, you've surpassed from barely surviving into a "I can manage it" zone.  Is that enough for you?  Is that enough protection and example for your children?
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SamwizeGamgee
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« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2019, 09:48:24 AM »

Thanks for your comments. I find the community help here keeps me honest, at least honestly looking at myself.

I think my "as good as it gets" is only valid until the kids are grown.  I carry a thought, that seems to accompany me, that my body is married, my spirit is free (or longs to be free), and my heart is dead.  So, all my strategy, self-help, coping, and surviving, has an expiration date.  When the kids go, I go.  Now, what weighs on me is whether it's better for me to go through the travail of divorce now, or later.  Your last question, of whether it is enough protection, or healthy influence, for the kids probably hits the center of what I need to ask.

I think I honestly have tried to re-engage, though that might be not true.  I can't think of a place or time I would want to restore in my marriage, so the concept of re-engaging in marriage, is maybe what an ex-convict might feel about going back to prison.  Which goes back to your comment, that if/when a BPD sufferer improves or recover, the relationship still ends since the partner realizes what could have been.  My marriage brought about my kids, and that's the good that came from it.  Otherwise, it's been improvement caused by the refiner's fire, of living in the low, but steady, flames of the waif / BPD furnace. 

I also accept that maybe, though we once got along as married, if I have changed enough on my own, that we simply won't fit together any more, regardless of what she does or doesn't do. 
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it's about time I said to myself, "I believe me".


« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2019, 05:17:18 PM »

There is so much of what you have written that I truly relate to.  I can also relate to the somewhat self-punishing, "I find myself in sort of the family relations version of "you made your bed, now you have to sleep in it." -- yep... .that's sort of how I feel now really.

But not really.

In my case, my BPD-H has controlled finances for years (over 15) and also discouraged me from working outside the home, while creating his own emergencies that had me stuck in perpetual catch-22 situations.  I was constantly our family peace-keeper and rescuer - and this was especially when my BPD-H became emotionally and verbally abusive towards our kids (which was *far* more obvious if he was upset or agitated - so I felt as if I had a gun to my head all the time -- *"be good - or the kids will suffer - and it will be your fault!"*. 

thanks to a DBT workshop, I've learned excellent mindfulness skills that help tremendously on avoiding conflict.  I don't get sucked into my BPD-H's arguments so much - and we *appear* to be getting along better, which is to say - that I'm very careful about not rocking the boat.

And I'm worried for my kids. 

But it feels like a lie

I know it's a lie

and I hate feeling like I'm living a lie.

We *were* separated for well over a full year.  He did horrific things during that time to punish both me and the kids.

at some point, we started getting along - just slightly better.

He moved back home abruptly and when I was out of town.  Getting back together was something he had been pressuring me for - for nearly the entire time he was out of the house.

I had misgivings as soon as I got home.  I felt violated.  I felt invaded.

I kept it together though - but as soon as he became verbally abusive of our kids again - I asked for him to leave.  He sat in the middle of the floor, cross-legged and downcast, saying, "I can't".  I never knew what he meant by that really and I never figured it out.

I asked him to leave several times since then.  He refused.

Lately, what he has been telling our family therapist is that he can't (move out) due to financial reasons.  (forgive me for calling BS on that - especially since he seems - for all the world - to be sabotaging finances on purpose.  He certainly seems to have sabotaged himself at work such that he is making half of his pay).

I can't help but to feel anything other than a hostage in my own home - and it feels like a hostage situation where my children and I are all held hostage and when I bring that up - as I used to - he would explode in anger, minimize the situation, invalidate my feelings, generally make me feel like hell.

but here's the thing - I feel as if I end up gas-lighting myself and I feel as if our well-meaning local therapists contribute to that.  Our family therapist actually gave us - as a homework assignment - a list of what to do to increase intimacy.  I ended up feeling as if she was asking me to sleep with a terrorist.  I felt annoyed and more than a bit angry.

At other times, I end up throwing the mom-guilt at myself about how well our children would fare through a divorce.  My 10-year-old is a special needs kids and it seems as if my youngest kid has issues too. 

At other times, I try to convince myself to buck up and to just work on my own communication skills.  And that works for improving communication between my BPD-H and I -- but it doesn't mean he won't still invalidate the kids, blame them for his mood-swings or say horrific things to them.  But the thing is - I know however bad it seems now - it was *way*, **way** worse when he was moved out - with his neglecting the kids' needs to the point where he was bloody dangerous. 

He threatened suicide - a lot.  He even tried at least in a passive way and almost died a couple times that could have been related to all the ways he was trying to do himself in.  I saved him.  Every time.  My therapist suggests that I stop saving him.  But I can't allow my children's father to die - not with my standing over him and knowing I could have done *something*. 

He used to go into a "despair spiral" where he would threaten either suicide or he would threaten to quit work - which would leave our kids without any financial support or medical insurance and with me out of the work force for so long - I didn't have much confidence in my being able to make up the shortfall in enough time.

He recently and mysteriously stopped doing the "despair spiral" stuff - but now he acts for all the world as if he just gets me as his consolation prize and I have some *seriously* mixed feelings about that - and I have to admit feeling very resentful towards our family therapist and also other local resources that seem to be pressuring me to make nice with this guy who not only nearly destroyed my life, but has a long and painful history of hurting our children. 

At times - he seems like he's back to his old self - the man I married.  At other times, he is playing mind-games, saying stuff that feels obviously manipulative, claiming he said things that he didn't say or claiming that reality is different than it is. 

My practicing my DBT skills has helped me massively on no longer taking the bait on arguing.  But that doesn't mean I want to prostitute myself for the sake of my children having two parents still-married.

Also - I fully recognize that I'm burying and denying my own needs in all of this... .walking on eggshells perpetually, being our in-home therapist and problem solver - the family peace-keeper. 

Lately, my BPD-H comes home and his entrance is that he says, "hi?" - and then "hello?" - and while that sounds innocent enough - he does this in such a way where he expects me to drop everything and tend to his emotional needs.  Other times, he walks in and does the needy-hello thing and then starts in on me on, "what's wrong?" and "I can *tell* something is wrong?"... .and I don't know what to say. The simple answer to that would be, "well - nothing was wrong 'till you came home and started trying to poke at me... .well, except for you keeping me hostage here and preventing me any financial resources to attain any sort of independence or agency - except that little old thing - then, no - nothing is wrong". 

I know what you mean too on feeling like you're posting in the wrong section - I posted originally in the section where I was trying to sort things out... .and that was because my husband had finally entered into a DBT program himself.  And since that's the gold standard for BPD - I felt unrealistically optimistic, like - "hey - maybe he can heal" - and maybe he can.  But that doesn't take away the 16 years I've had to live with him controlling my every action and all the invalidation and gas-lighting, blame-shifting, mind-games, lies, secrets and all the other ways he has hurt me and then later on, hurt me through the kids. 

I'm tired of feeling like I'm just a negotiating chip used for negotiating our children's future. 

I'm not a consolation prize for his getting into therapy.

I don't know what to do.

I feel beaten.  I feel "too old" and I feel helpless. 

I don't like feeling like my only chance to have any sort of life is by living a lie and walking on eggshells.

I want my children's future to be better.  I desperately want their dad to related to them better - but should that be at the sacrifice of my own happiness and freedom?

We went to Triple-P parenting - during the sessions, my BPD-H acted for all the world as if we were together, when it felt like it was a lie, even then and he was there because he had been referred for rage issues. 

Our family therapist suggested he go into rage counseling - he never did (other than the Triple-P and given how manipulative he was to me during all that - I quit mid-way through as I had already taken the course online in any case and I was getting tired of his groping me in public for the sake of making it seem as if we were a happily married couple when at home we never had any sort of affection - or only perfunctory shows of affection, either the goodbye thing or goodnight - but only a perfunctory kiss that is about as romantic as a kiss to my uncle)

But how could our family therapist refer him to rage and domestic violence counseling and then come back and give us a bloody assignment about building intimacy?  What the heck?

I have very few friends outside of home.  I've been isolated for ages.   Making friends is like an uphill battle really.  I sometimes feel like, "If I can't even make friends - then how the heck do I become financially independent enough to make the $6000 retainer the only lawyer available has asked for me to shell out?"

I feel helpless.  Yes - I know that DBT skills are all about taking personal responsibility for your own actions and your own communication.  And I am!  I definitely am!   But my BPD-H - keeps acting as if my not taking the bait for arguing means that I want to jump back into bed with him.  I'm not comfortable with that really - because of the way he hurt our kids and the way it feels like such a slap in the face - to myself really... .why do I want to sleep with someone who hurt me over 16 years?  The simple answer is that I don't really.  And I feel guilty that I don't want to - because I am under so much pressure to play-nice and pretend that we can somehow glue the bits and pieces back together. 

Even Triple P Parenting folks seem to be pressuring us to stay together - and I don't understand why anyone who knows there has been anger-issues and a history of abuse would be okay with that.  *I'm* not okay with that!

Why are victims and survivors of abuse pressured to play-nice with those who have hurt them and hurt them over such a long, long period of time?

I know my husband has mental health disorders.  I do have compassion for him.  But that doesn't mean I feel like repeatedly sacrificing myself for the remainder of my life.

I don't know what I'm doing anymore.

I feel like playing-nice is robbing me of my self-esteem and my identity.

But I'm scared of our children being hurt through a horrible divorce - or worse, their father committing suicide or his lapsing back into the sort of absent, neglectful and abusive parent he was when we were separated. 

I want to be free.

I just have no idea how to get there from where I am now.

We have no family locally.

The only social interaction I have anymore is via my support groups and therapy.  (I started going to DBT for PTSD, trauma, insomnia and anxiety-related stuff... .but not to blame my husband for *everything* - I know that when I used to take the bait in arguments that I could have managed things so much better - but I feel a *hell* of a lot calmer when he's *not* around!)

Where in the world do I even start?





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Been trying to get those lemons to transmogrify to lemonade for years... It's about time that I validate myself and just said simply that, "I believe me" - and that I don't have to wait for someone who hurts me to say the same.
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« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2019, 10:27:22 AM »

Wow, Eleven, I feel you almost need your own post for all that.  What I can say is that the First Step Out is the hardest step.  Once you've started on a Path toward a better destination, the other steps won't be quite so hard.  Yes, you'll get more sabotage, guilting and even obstruction, but once you start on a path with a better future in sight you'll feel more "in control".

That is a lament most of us make, acting-out disordered people are typically expert liars and manipulators.  There's a fine article on www.DrJoeCarver.com that is entitled, Personality Disorders: The Controllers, Abusers, Manipulators and Users in Relationships. Another of his articles describes Losers.  Losers, Users or Abusers, they're all bad news.  Often they know just how far they can go before something becomes 'actionable'.  Also, during a divorce courts expect the parents to be a bit emotionally triggered and so often the disorder is ignored or explained away as "the conflict will go away after the divorce is final".  Um, not when an acting-out PD is involved.

The kids will need counselors to provide additional support and insight.  Courts love counseling.  Be sure he doesn't pick the counselors, he would choose ineffective, inexperienced or gullible ones.  One way to limit his choices are for you to have a short list of counselors with solid reputations and accept your insurance, then he can pick from among those most excellent counselors.  Courts like that approach, both parents are involved but the key is you've ensured they are all good counselors.
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« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2019, 02:17:57 PM »

I carry a thought, that seems to accompany me, that my body is married, my spirit is free (or longs to be free), and my heart is dead.  So, all my strategy, self-help, coping, and surviving, has an expiration date.  When the kids go, I go.  Now, what weighs on me is whether it's better for me to go through the travail of divorce now, or later.  

Hope this isn't too strange of a question, but what was/is your dad like?
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« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2019, 10:33:52 AM »

I'm curious where this question leads. 
But, here goes: My dad is a gentle type, was a card-carrying pacifist during the draft days.  Highly educated, under-employed.  Maybe an idealist.  He was very supportive and loving father, though most often he was out of the house between working in the trades, and going to night school during my childhood.  His marriage is still intact, and my parents seem fairly well suited to each other. 
I bounced the opposite direction when I was old enough.  Now we get along very well.
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« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2019, 11:06:00 AM »

It was a hunch, maybe it's nothing.

It seems like a numbed heart may be depriving you of that special emotional intelligence used to guide big decisions.

In which case, not having a full heart on deck would lead you to think this through instead of the whole bundle working for you.

I could imagine defaulting to familiar scripts to help guide decisions, like what would your father do, or some other role model.


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« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2019, 03:32:42 PM »

Just an update.  I've been listening to, or watching, videos about abusive relationships. It's kind of pushing me to act, and by act I mean cut the acceptance of "as good as it gets" and follow my feelings. 
My feelings are just saying to put it out in the open.  It's dishonest for me to stay like this. This would mean steer towards divorce.
But, I'm afraid, straight out afraid.
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« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2019, 11:59:04 AM »

How would you like us to support you here, Sam?
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« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2019, 02:11:37 PM »

Just an update.  I've been listening to, or watching, videos about abusive relationships. It's kind of pushing me to act, and by act I mean cut the acceptance of "as good as it gets" and follow my feelings. 
My feelings are just saying to put it out in the open.  It's dishonest for me to stay like this. This would mean steer towards divorce.
But, I'm afraid, straight out afraid.
Sam - you can read my older posts on the staying/improving board. I went through a 2 - 2.5 year cycle of trying to work out how to stay, realizing it was harming me/kids, being afraid and lost of how to proceed, resolving to make it better and stay.

In the end, this is a decision that only you can make. To me, it doesn't sound as if your heart is dead, more so that you aren't completely ready to listen to what it is telling you because of the fear. What I learned, after I left, (and what I am still learning) is that I am so very used to operating out of fear and avoidance, that it had become my norm. And it was, and is, hard to change that behavior I have. But, I can assure you that the daily fear and misgiving that I felt living with my xw diminished considerably after I left. I still am dealing with it today, but I don't feel the urgency to solve things or make them go away anymore the way that I used to. I try to focus on my role in my life and my kids' lives and recognize that I will never be able to make a civil, decent relationship with my xw. It is entirely her choice how she behaves, and my only job is to tend to what's right for me and the kids and let her hold the rest.

I hope you can find some space to know that you are going to be okay if you should decide to leave.
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ForeverDad
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You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2019, 01:25:18 AM »

Your children are spread across the age spectrum, I think the youngest would be 8 or 9 years old.  I separated when my son was 3 years old.  We subsequently divorced.  It's sad that it happened but many here have seen benefits where the children have an opportunity for at least one parent to model how a family and home ought to be positive, stable and consistently loving.  Later when they're grown that example will aid them, hopefully, to make a good choice when seeking their own life mates.  Right now there's a risk that their family experience is with a controlling and angry parent versus a compliant or fixer parent.  Whose example will they emulate?  Who will they choose in their own future?

No one will tell you what to do.  You know your own situation in deeper detail than us in peer support.  Do you stay or would a change now however difficult be a better example?

In my first year here I posted this observation:
Excerpt
Quote from: ForeverDad on November 13, 2006, 08:08:04 PM
This is a example of a common pattern that has been repeated millions of times in millions of families:

Little son/daughter sees parents screaming and fighting all the time, maybe both aggressive against each other, or maybe just one fighting and the other one taking it passively.  Maybe it's directed at the kids too.  The poor little innocent kids either see abuse or are abused and they tell themselves, 'When I grow up I'll never do that to my spouse or to my kids or let my kids see/hear that.'

Well, guess what, the child grows up and does just what the parents did.  That's the example they grew up with.  That's how an abused person can become an abuser years later without even realizing it.  From abused to abuser.

I've talked with some parents who had bad tempers and they admitted their own parents were that way too.  Yet it was so hard, so very hard for them to realize the connection and to fight the urge to vent without self-control.  Many (but of course not all) adult problems seem to have roots in childhood when basic personality is being developed.  I don't say this to add or remove blame to anyone, but just knowing that sometimes events in childhood have serious repercussions years later may help abuse survivors to not feel so bad about themselves and to work hard to recover.
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« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2019, 10:56:33 AM »

Thank you all.
I can see in hindsight the "perfect storm" as I was the rescuer (sort of) for my wife.  I grew up in relative peace and harmony, with a overly worried, fearful, but loving and supportive mom, and a loving but mostly absent dad. Who didn't model much as far as self-confidence and masculinity.
I chose my wife mostly along religious indoctrination. Marrying someone in the faith was supposed to be a recipe for success, and I had reached a marriageable age and stage in life, and well... .quick courtship, stark reality of an unstable marriage, and my depression that followed.  Add in disappointment, and cognitive dissonance to the stormy seas of my first real exposure to domestic chaos, and the story goes on.
I dread to think that my kids would take this as the limit of life.
There's no open, heated conflict in the home.  That normally would be a reason to end an marriage to protect the kids. But, I figured out that I don't fight now because I don't care enough for my wife. Plus, I've got a very healthy dose of self-control and the patience of Job.  Nevertheless, the void of love at home that seems to permeate the air is probably real, and affects the kids.

How would you like us to support you here, Sam?

I'm going to invent my own therapeutic method (I think).  I'll start a post in the conflicted board.  I'll channel Marie Kondo and take out all my fears - all my reasons for staying stuck in marriage - name them, look at them, weigh them, and pile them up in the middle of my emotional floor.  I'll thank them for the warnings, the safety they afforded, the protection, the distance.  I'll appreciate and understand the crippling, soul-freezing effect they have had on me, even more so after learning about myself, relationships, and personality disorders. Knowing better and not doing better has been one of my problems.
I'll thank my fears.  I'll then sort them.  And throw away the ones I don't want to take with me into the future.
Maybe that will tidy up my mindset.
I want to re-couple my heart to my life direction.
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« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2019, 10:47:46 AM »

OK, but how would you like US to support you here, Sam?
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« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2019, 09:10:07 AM »

As it would violate policy, I don't suppose anyone here will tell me what to do.  I am pretty good at following orders though ;)
While I'm working through this, and while I am getting along with "as good as it gets" I expect that just listening and sounding out your reactions is helpful. 

I had some stronger feelings yesterday.  On my way home I started to reflect on what I _wanted_ to do rather than return to the maddening question of what I what I _should_ do, or what was right, best, or least damaging.  Looking at what I want is much more defined and resolved than what I "should."
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« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2019, 11:20:20 AM »

What might feel uncomfortable about "wants" is that, for a Non, it also feels selfish.  It isn't, but you l but have to push past that.
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In yours and my discharge."
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You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2019, 11:30:45 AM »

Another aspect to consider is that it's very hard to think outside the box, outside the situation we're immersed in.  Here are two approaches:

  • Ask others for their less-influenced, less-subjective perspectives.  You're doing that and you really are listening to the responses.  It is helping even if we stop short of bluntly telling you what to do.
  • Another way to step outside yourself is to picture yourself 5 or 10 years down the road... .Imagine future life then and ask yourself, (1) Will I regret hunkering down or will I regret taking further action? (2) Will my kids, then grown, ask wistfully why did — or didn't — you divorce years ago?
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« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2019, 12:17:12 PM »

To expand on ForeverDad's excellent advice -

"Shoulds" can very demoralizing, when they lock us into a pattern of behavior that might not be a natural fit.  I like to turn them on their heads, because "should" is very different depending on perspective.  Sometime it is very useful, for me, to write out a list of all of the "shoulds" from every perspective I can imagine.

My exH initiated our divorce and then did nothing to actually make it happen.  I had to make a decision at some point on whether I would continue to try to fight for our marriage or press to finalize the divorce.  I made my list of shoulds.
*should fight for my children to be raised in a single home with both parents (what I imagined the child's perspective to be)
*should fight for the marriage so we wouldn't each be left with only half the assets (my inner accountant's perspective)
*should fight for the marriage because marriage is a sacred commitment (my grandmother's perspective)
etc, etc

*should not fight for the marriage because my kids deserved to be raised in a house without arguments/with parents who displayed healthy communication (my perspective as child of parents with unhealthy behaviors)
*should not fight for the marriage because then-H didn't want it (then-H's perspective)
*should not fight for the marriage because then-H didn't treat me well (my mother's perspective)
etc, etc

It amazed me to see how many different versions of "should" there could be.  It ultimately turned into a pros and cons list, which, in an emotional decision, is not all that helpful in making a decision but is invaluable in helping one realize that we aren't locked into a single path.  We can justify any path with very valid reasons.

I finally followed the last bit of ForeverDad's advice and imagined what my ideal life would look like in 5 years. I actually thought back to my 21-year-old self, before I got married, and tried to remember what that version of me had wanted out of life.  It was remarkably similar to what the 32-year-old separated me wanted for myself.   I realized I already had just about all of it, even as a suddenly single mom, and the parts I didn't have wouldn't be provided by my ex-H as he was then.  Maybe by a new-and-improved version of him, but not by that version.  That helped me make peace with my decision to let the marriage go. 

Rediscover your goals and dreams for your life and figure out what you already have and what you don't.
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« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2019, 08:51:06 AM »

Excellent points.  There are so many "shoulds,"and so many voices, and scripts - internal and external.  And then there's the pragmatic, "cheaper to keep her" motto. And then looking over the last month or so, my wife has been fairly exemplary, but, I still can't re-engage. I think that's based on too many years of not having my needs met (so much so that I sat in couple's T and couldn't think of a need that I have in marriage), and the toxic bath of our relationship (to which I contributed, no doubt).
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« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2019, 10:33:08 AM »

I wonder if somatic experiencing might be helpful for you. 

Excerpt
The Somatic Experiencing® method is a body-oriented approach to the healing of trauma and other stress disorders. It is the life’s work of Dr. Peter A. Levine, resulting from his multidisciplinary study of stress physiology, psychology, ethology, biology, neuroscience, indigenous healing practices, and medical biophysics, together with over 45 years of successful clinical application.

SE offers a framework to assess where a person is “stuck” in the fight, flight or freeze responses and provides clinical tools to resolve these fixated physiological states.

I've been doing SE with a practitioner and I have made more progress in a handful of sessions than ten years of talk therapy. I am grateful for the talk therapy and wouldn't trade it for the world, and also grateful that there are other therapies when the talking reaches a plateau.
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« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2019, 10:39:33 AM »

My interest is strong.  I am listening more and more to my body and feelings.
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« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2019, 09:32:06 AM »

My interest is strong.  I am listening more and more to my body and feelings.

SE seems to bypass the listening part and go straight to something else much deeper.

I have childhood memories I can discuss with others that bring up describable feelings in my body. Listening to those feelings does not change them or alter them in any way.

Somatic experiencing seems to allow a safe way for unfinished feelings to finish, if that makes sense. And it happens incrementally so it's not overwhelming.

Choices I make now are different because I am no longer afraid of feeling certain things, having had an opportunity to experience them safely and realize they are not a threat.
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it's about time I said to myself, "I believe me".


« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2019, 08:49:30 PM »

Wow, Eleven, I feel you almost need your own post for all that.  What I can say is that the First Step Out is the hardest step.  Once you've started on a Path toward a better destination, the other steps won't be quite so hard.  Yes, you'll get more sabotage, guilting and even obstruction, but once you start on a path with a better future in sight you'll feel more "in control".


I really like the suggestions you are providing here...
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Been trying to get those lemons to transmogrify to lemonade for years... It's about time that I validate myself and just said simply that, "I believe me" - and that I don't have to wait for someone who hurts me to say the same.
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