Should I apologize when I have done nothing wrong?

[DoubleBP2018]

My uHFBPDw wants me to apologize for something I did not do.

I have done this in the past, to try to calm her down, but it seems like that just prolongs the dysregulation.

I'm currently reading WHINE, so far none of the tools in that book seem to address this issue.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

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[Granite Chief]

In my experience NO!

She will continuously make you do this. I would say something like this. I am sorry you are so scared babe... .I love you and we can talk about this but I did not do anything to apologize for.

I used to get constant accusations for cheating. You have to remember when she splits she is a kid mentally.

Have you read Stop Walking On Eggshells?

[CryWolf]

you might be validating the invalid here and possibly enable this behavior in the future.

May I ask what the occasion was that you need to apologize for?

[once removed]

what does she want you to apologize for

[DoubleBP2018]

I have read SWoE.

I stopped apologizing for imaginary offences to avoid validating the invalid, but I’m not sure if I’m doing that in the most effective manner.

Here is the story:
I’m driving with my uHFBPD wife, uBPD adult daughter, and my elderly Aunt. I make a navigation mistake and my wife points out the error. I say “right, I forgot that’s a dead end” and I stop to let some traffic go by so I can get back in the right lane.

Meanwhile my wife points out that turn would have taken us into a neighborhood. My daughter comments that we don’t have time to be driving around all night. My wife says I have been here before, I should know better. My daughter says I need to pay more attention.

My Aunt says “wow, one wrong turn and you really hear about it”.

After that W and D are silent. After I drop off my Aunt, my wife tells me I owe her and my daughter an apology for not defending them, that I should have explained to my Aunt that they were right to criticize me.

My analysis: W and D were both embarrassed by this and now have to blame me (classic BPD response).

The only response I can think of is to say nothing. I think I’m supposed to validate their feelings, but I have no idea how to do that in this situation.

[lenfan]

Wow. I had a very similar experience a couple of weeks ago.  uBPDw gave me the silent treatment for a half hour on the way to a party because she did not like the route I took, and I made a point of not apologizing for it. (YOU took the long way, blah , blah, blah . . .then stony silence). Of course, she was Ms. Charming when we got there. Thankfully,  my college age daughter who was with us does not  seem to have too many of her Mom's BPD traits.  She  made a comment that suggested she thought uBPDw was  out of line, and tried to make small talk. We didn't have an Aunt with us, but otherwise I can totally empathize with your very unpleasant experience.

My sense of this is that it  is best to not apologize. I have resolved to apologize less: Once ---If I am wrong or partly wrong, and not at all if I am falsely accused or guilty of something (like taking a wrong turn) that is trivial. You have a right to make mistakes and move on.  My uBPDw and her entire family do not apologize even when they know they are wrong. They have acknowledged this and even joke about it when they are together. They're proud of it.  When she was in a half decent mood, I announced I was adopting her family policy . . . no apologies. I said it with a kind of faux bravado she seemed to oddly respect.  My bet is that even with an apology, you are never forgiven in return and she comes looking for another apology for the same thing later, and/or adds it to your list of faults.

By the way, it took a lot of self control for you not say, like a lot of people would, something like"YOU should be apologizing to ME fro embarrassing me in front of our Aunt  . . .drive yourself next time." Good job there. I was thinking those kinds of thoughts during my incident, but did not let them take hold.

 There seems to be no easy answer to any of these questions; but staying firm, keeping calm, not JADEing and moving on has been the best approach for me, even if I have to endure some silence or an outburst in the process. I am no expert in any of this, just another non looking for help here too, so take what I have to offer with a grain of salt. But, my advice is:   Avoid apologizing unless it is sincere and proportionate to the situation. Just apologizing to keep peace in the moment may have some short term benefit, but may set you up for more attacks in the future.   Easier said than done, but worth a shot. Good luck.

[Ozzie101]

I'm not sure if it's the "right" thing, but in this situation, I would be inclined to just say nothing. From the story you related, there's definitely nothing there to apologize for.

In my experience, even when I have done something wrong and worthy of apology, apologizing does little good. My uBPDH still brings up things from two years ago (and that I've apologized for multiple times) as a stick to beat me with.

[once removed]

I think I’m supposed to validate their feelings, but I have no idea how to do that in this situation.

your aunt made a judgment, and kind of got in the middle of things. it happens, and its done, but theres still conflict between the three of you. mind you, conflict between three people can be very different than conflict between two people. your daughter and wife were both irked by what your aunt said, and theyre irked at you. they can reinforce each others position. one thing you dont want to do is actively side with your aunt.

im not sure it would have been appropriate to go "putting your aunt in her place", so to speak. it would have been three against one. it was an offhand remark. perhaps there was a comment you could have made to lighten the mood, but the time for that has passed.

so whats valid about your wife and your daughters perspective? they feel attacked and judged by your aunt. its your family member, so it feels personal. they also feel that since youve been where you were driving before, that you should have known the way.

you feel their criticism was over the top and unnecessary. you feel it wasnt your place to tell your aunt to cool it.

the answer here is not to do nothing. to do nothing is to side with your aunt, and against your wife and your daughter. it will further entrench everyones perspective, and your wife and your daughter will continue to side with each other and against you.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

by and large, this is a discussion you want to have separately, with your wife. maybe one you want to have with your daughter, maybe not. its one where you want to do a lot of listening, and validate the valid, not the invalid. put yourself in your wifes shoes on this, and get at the heart of what really bothered her about this. in family disputes, it really hurts to feel attacked by another family member (aunt), and not defended by the closer family member (you). again, resist the urge to side with your aunt. stay focused between you and your wife.

its not about right or wrong here. its about addressing the feelings and resolving the conflict. it may require a few conversations, where you primarily listen, and reflect. its okay and good to communicate that you need some time to think it over and reflect on what shes saying, and then come back to it. eventually, when your wife feels heard, it will also be good to state your perspective. to say that from time to time, youre going to get directions wrong; it happens. be humble about it. for example, if theres even the slightest kernel of truth to the idea that youre not good with directions, its okay to say that... .make it light, be self deprecating. ask if the two of you can help each other on this, work together as a team, and not fight about it.

that kinda thing. its a generalized approach. make sense?

[lenfan]

Once Removed:

Your response makes the most sense, but gee that sure is lot to ask of Double, especially where it seems the Aunt is the only one that got how he felt. The Wife and Daughter appear to want him to "turn on" someone who is at least appearing to support him. It seems to me that something like "Be quiet Auntie, mind your own business and let them yell at me!" is what they were looking for at that moment.  All the guy was trying to do was get from point A to point B, and it turns into a major issue requiring tremendous patience, insight and some training in order to navigate it with minimal conflict.   Ugh. I agree that your approach is best. I just wish there was something easier, but we have to accept the reality we have been dealt.   My comment is simply that it is sad and discouraging that we can't be like "other people" and just go for a drive without knowing when the next issue will erupt.

Double: I feel your pain. Thanks for sharing and giving me the opportunity to vent.

[once removed]

its a given that we have difficult partners. it takes finesse and skill to weather the storms. it also takes not getting pulled into the drama... .see past the issue of "the aunt", and look toward solutions.

its also a more common family conflict than we might think. my parents fought about this sort of thing all the time. BPD traits can turn common family conflict into a bigger thing, for sure.

[DoubleBP2018]

Thanks for the responses; I appreciate the help in navigating this situation.

lenfan & Ozzie, thanks for reinforcing the “do not apologize just to appease the BPD” rule that I have!

Once Removed,
I never thought about the fact that not responding at all is effectively siding with my Aunt, that is a new insight for me. So I have to say something.
I have no interest in right or wrong in dealing with my BPDs, I’m only interested in what is effective. In this case I still don’t know.

I can add one detail: my wife has told me she expected me to say something to my Aunt like “they are just trying to help me”. Since I did not do that, I owe them an apology.

I’m stuck – I can’t think of any way to discuss this with my wife. Every idea I can think of will be interpreted as me making excuses, and we all know that is a dead end. In other words, I don’t know how to address their feelings and resolve the conflict.

I’m heading home soon. If I find myself in circumstances tonight where this is discussed, my only strategy is to state that I’m not siding with my Aunt, but I don’t see what I have to apologize for.
Seems like a pretty weak plan to me, but it’s all I got….

[Radcliff]

How did the evening go?

RC

[DoubleBP2018]

This incident is over now, so I thought I'd analyze what happened. My wife usually gets back to baseline in 3 days, in this case she was severely dysregulated for a week. My daughter typically gets back to baseline in a few days, that's what happened this time.

I never did apologize - thanks again for all of you that advised me not to!

I ended up saying nothing about this at all, I just let the dysregulation run its course.

I could not figure out how to validate their feelings for this reason:
Their ACTUAL feelings were embarrassment, for acting so snotty to me and being called out for it. As BPDs they could not face that, so they revise the facts to align with their emotional reaction at the time. The revised facts were that I ignored the initial comment that I was making a wrong turn, and they had to keep making comments to convince me I was making a navigation error. In this new (fictional) situation, they were simply trying to help me and I let my Aunt get away with being mean to them.

Therefore I could not validate their real feelings because they were not aware they felt them, and I could not validate their perceived feelings because they were invalid (based on fictional "truths").

Ultimately I just had to wait it out, that is the cost of living with people with BPD.

[theuproar]

Wow. I had a very similar experience a couple of weeks ago.  uBPDw gave me the silent treatment for a half hour on the way to a party because she did not like the route I took, and I made a point of not apologizing for it. (YOU took the long way, blah , blah, blah . . .then stony silence). Of course, she was Ms. Charming when we got there. 

Your mentioning this experience makes me want to do a backflip out of joy that someone else has to deal with this, but also incredibly depressed the more I learn. 

My SO constantly, constantly complains about the route I take driving, makes fun of me about it for way too long, and it sometimes escalates into something worse.  Nevermind that she's a terrible driver (I don't really care, just ironic) and literally cannot find her way around the city that she's lived in for almost 10 years.  If her phone is dead, which it often is, I have to either stop everything I'm doing to take her where she needs to go or draw a detailed map.   

Then, when we arrive wherever we're going, she turns that switch off and is charming and wonderful to everyone there, including me.  Like nothing happened.

[once removed]

Ultimately I just had to wait it out, that is the cost of living with people with BPD.

dont discount the other costs, of things like "ignoring a problem in your marriage until it goes away".

because it doesnt go away. resentment and distrust build, on both sides, and conflict gets harder to resolve.

Their ACTUAL feelings were embarrassment, for acting so snotty to me and being called out for it. As BPDs they could not face that, so they revise the facts to align with their emotional reaction at the time. The revised facts were that I ignored the initial comment that I was making a wrong turn, and they had to keep making comments to convince me I was making a navigation error. In this new (fictional) situation, they were simply trying to help me and I let my Aunt get away with being mean to them.

this is probably not how she sees it, or at all how she would word it.

to empathize is to understand another persons perspective, and why they have it, where they are coming from. to validate is to show that we get it, even if we dont agree.

in this case, she told you why she was upset.

After that W and D are silent. After I drop off my Aunt, my wife tells me I owe her and my daughter an apology for not defending them, that I should have explained to my Aunt that they were right to criticize me.

she, in essence, feels that:

1. your aunt insulted her and your daughter
2. that you didnt defend them
3. that you sided with your aunt

think about it (you dont have to answer): if you had strong feelings that "family comes first", and you felt that your wife wrongly sided with her relatives over you, what are some of the feelings you would have?

[Caticorn]

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this post!  I think it really demonstrates the internal conflict we go through every day - trying to balance self-preservation (e.g., remaining silent, or not apologizing because it will be added to the list of faults and weaponized later) and improving our relationship with our pwBPD (once removed's commentary on addressing their feelings and our own before too much resentment develops). 

It's so hard to be vulnerable when there's such a risk of being hurt, especially by our pwBPD, who seem to be experts at digging the knife deeper than anyone else.  I have gone for years unbalanced, entirely in self-preservation mode, just waiting for each period of dysregulation to be over and growing colder toward him over time.  That might have been what I needed just to survive.  But I'm realizing now that I live with a stranger for whom I have little respect. He might as well not even be a person at this point.  He's just something in my environment that I have to protect myself against.  I'm determined to fix that now.

Double, I would have done the same thing as you and remained silent, then waited for everything to blow over.  I'm new here and by no means an expert, but it seems like once removed has a point that ultimately, we're on this board because we're all looking to improve our relationships, and to do that, their feelings, no matter how "unjustified," irrational and even infuriating they are, need to be addressed and validated.  It just takes so much strength and resolve to do that, and a core knowledge that we are not what they say we are when they are dysregulated. 

Caticorn