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Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse... Have you considered that being critical, judgmental, or invalidating toward the other parent, no matter what she or he just did will only make matters worse? Someone has to be do something. This means finding the motivation to stop making things worse, learning how to interrupt your own negative responses, body language, facial expressions, voice tone, and learning how to inhibit your urges to do things that you later realize are contributing to the tensions.
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Author Topic: BPD & the Helping Dynamic  (Read 475 times)
Lucky Jim
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« on: January 25, 2019, 10:53:15 AM »

Friends,

    I suspect that many of us initially became entangled in a BPD r/s out of a sense that, in some fashion, we were "helping" the pwBPD, which feels noble and fosters our attraction to the pwBPD.  Yet now I view helping a pwBPD as unhealthy, if not dangerous, for a Non with codependent tendencies.  Once caught up in the helping dynamic, we leave ourselves open to manipulation through F-O-G (fear, obligation and guilt).  We may assume personal responsibility for the welfare of the pwBPD, which involves sacrificing our own needs for those of the pwBPD as well as putting up with some form of abuse.  It gets crazy.

These days, I think that those w/BPD don't need our help, not really, and that on some fundamental level they would rather not be saved.

Can anyone relate?

LuckyJim


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« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2019, 11:48:50 AM »

I most certainly can relate. I've pretty much worn myself out doing things for (now ex) wife. I still volunteer very easily if she needs help with something, like her dog.

I think in my case I feel that I only have a value if I do good for others. It's not easy to change. It's especially difficult now that I'm not spending as much time with the kids - I used to feel really good doing things for them and driving them around etc, like I had a purpose. Without them I feel kind of lost.

I think I also help my ex-wife from some fear of her making things worse. Low self-esteem on my part probably has a role in this.

But I think you're right, that on a fundamental level they'd probably rather make it on their own. It's a hard dynamic to dissect.
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« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2019, 12:48:57 PM »

I'm guilty of this too I guess.  I think I do it cause of our child (4).  We have been separated and the divorce will be final next month (Already signed and approved).  Yet, I still do for her sometimes, she had surgery, and I helped care for her, even though she had someone else in her life.  I do it cause I think I'll always love her and that is who I am.  Also, cause it's good for my child to see me care.  I also know there is co-dependent portion of my soul that is always looking for validation from her, however, it is a lot less now.  I don't sacrifice my needs anymore, and I take care of me first, and I know the charming and the games are just going to be a part of my life for the time being.  We had a very tumultuous marriage, but also passionate. I think we are both trying to maneuver what life without one another will entail with our child.  It's hard, because she has no boundaries and doesn't seem to want any.
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« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2019, 12:59:46 PM »

Hi LuckyJim,

I can totally relate and I agree with you that it is not healthy to try to help a pwBPD, apart from directing whereto seek professional help if they have some insight into their issues.

My BPDxbf, I feel, once the honeymoon stage was over, purposefully set me up to fail (him). So that he could have a "justifiable" reason to throw a fit, and rage, and inflict as much pain as he possibly could. At the same time he made me responsible for his misery.

He made me feel I could help, not just that I should, but before then, while we were still ok, he made me feel I was the only person that could help him, the only one. It is very appealing to feel so special, and I am guessing a few of us here never felt we mattered that much to anybody before the pwBPD in our lives. I didn't. But it is a trap. I don't think they consciously know but it is still a strategy they use, I suppose a copying mechanism to avoid abandonment.

So with my ex I think he "cried for help" not really to be helped, or at least not in the way he makes you feel it is needed, but to control you.
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« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2019, 03:47:51 PM »

I think the distinction between supporting and enabling is key here. We have a workshop on that topic https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=95263.0, this is an excerpt:

Being supportive is doing something for someone else that they are unable to do for themselves. Ex. picking up the kids from daycare because your partner is stuck in traffic.

Enabling is doing things for someone else that they can and should be doing for themselves. Ex. calling in sick for them, doing more than your fair share of chores.

I think for most of us these lines got blurred over time because it feels good and seems so easy to offer help, especially with things that require a lot of effort from a pwBPD while we are able to manage them without difficulties. 

I also came to the conclusion, that no matter how hard you try, you wont be able to help a person who isn't willing to put effort into helping themselves (e.g. through therapy). If somebody is hanging from a cliff and you extend your hand, they still need to grab onto it out of their own accord.   
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Lucky Jim
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« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2019, 10:30:36 AM »

Thanks to all for your thoughtful replies.

Excerpt
But I think you're right, that on a fundamental level they'd probably rather make it on their own. It's a hard dynamic to dissect.

Bullet: comment directed to __ (click to insert in post) empathic: I guess what I'm trying to say is that they don't see themselves as having an emotional disorder and, as a result, lack any interest in getting better, which is why I said they would "rather not be saved."

LJ

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« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2019, 11:28:46 PM »

 When my BPD mother went into skilled care,  I told her social worker,  "I'll give her money each month." She replied, "don't do that,  the facility will give her a stipend from her social security."

If I thought back, I think my mom often felt shame not being able to manage her own money even though she asked me for help when in crisis. My ex similarly telegraphed to me,  "I don't want you to take care of me then throw it in my face."

We are dealing with adults,  "independent entities, free to make their own choices" as my T said years ago.  Stop the caretaking.
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« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2019, 09:02:43 AM »

Interesting thoughts.

Mine wanted people to go after him when he left. He got frustrated with me when I didn't do that. He threatened to leave for over a decade, and when he finally left and went far away, we didn't know what to do. Friends of ours were confused too. I think though that if we had run after him, it wouldn't have changed a thing. It would have confirmed that he was in charge, and we were horrible for "forcing" him to leave. He wouldn't have taken responsibility. And that of course is key with the cluster B's. They have to take responsibility before it gets better.

Sadly, his family has reinforced all of this. They believe we (which includes friends) pushed him away, and that we are the disturbed ones. They blame his loneliness on us. They say that he is a victim.

It was a horrible, unhealthy pattern. It was a huge insight for me when I realized that I spent years trying to fix me to save a marriage that wasn't mine to save. I had always thought that his family was golden, and mine was messed up. Nope. Thankfully the perpetrators in my family of origin are gone, and at some level at least, we've dealt with that. I've had good counsel and have loving friends who get it.
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Lucky Jim
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« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2019, 11:24:17 AM »

Excerpt
So with my ex I think he "cried for help" not really to be helped, or at least not in the way he makes you feel it is needed, but to control you.

Good point, mitti, which is why I said that the helping dynamic opens the Non up to manipulation or control, as you put it, by the pwBPD.

LJ

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« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2019, 09:14:55 AM »

I suspect that many of us initially became entangled in a BPD r/s out of a sense that, in some fashion, we were "helping" the pwBPD, which feels noble and fosters our attraction to the pwBPD. 
Yes! I just recalled on another thread that my ex used to tell stories about how horrific her exs were. I felt compelled to "help" and indeed it did feel noble and indeed seemed to foster my attraction to her. I get to play white knight.     Later on we see the rest of the kettle of fish and the princess rescuing turns into caretaking.

I think Purplex has a good point here. It feels really crumby to discover that we enabled something, but it's possible we did.
I think the distinction between supporting and enabling is key here.
So regarding the ex story, I now think today it's up to the person's own self to manage a difficult situation with his or her own ex. Assuming there's truth to my ex's tales, the ex's she kept saying were continually going out of their way to pursue her surely received some reciprocal action from her to keep them strung on. Based on seeing her doing this kind of thing later, I think it provided evidence for my suspicions.

I suppose I failed to support her in learning how to deal with it by her self. I probably enabled her by always having those open rescuer arms when she had some sob ex story.

Conversely, the BP could have relationships patterning like this to fill that gaping 'emptiness'. You have to pity some of them because a lot of these 'triangling' behaviours are unconscious to them. It struck me as bizarre that my ex didn't seem to know let alone behave to manage away attention from as many men as possible. It drove me up the wall too. It seemed she needed men to keep her self together.

Good thread.   
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« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2019, 09:55:22 AM »

Nice thread, Lucky Jim.  I love that you chose the word "noble" because it sounds positive.  I definitely enjoyed feeling noble in my relationship with my ex.  Less flatteringly, I enjoyed feeling superior, too.  Could there be a tie-in here to traits relating to control and superiority?
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« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2019, 05:09:59 AM »

In many ways Lucky Jim, what you’ve set out seems to fit my experience too.

I invested a big part of myself in helping my special person, often in ways that were not even visible to her. I cared so much that I didn’t even want her to see how much I doing for her. As you described, it was *noble* in some ways, but also, in the end, unhealthy.

It seems like many of us have experienced an intense connection with someone that might have generated this kind of behaviour.

I think there are a couple of interesting questions that come out of this.

One is, it’s obviously good to have empathy and help another person. We shouldn’t denigrate that. And if we’ve done that for another person, we can be proud of it. But at what point does empathy, and helpfulness, become unhealthy? How do we draw the line on that?

The other question is, after an unhealthy relationship with *too much* empathy, how much of that experience reveals a systematic dysfunction on our part, and how much was down to the one-off, dysfunctional connection we had with that particular person - something that’s unlikely to happen again with someone else?

I’ve formed my own view on that for my situation, but I guess the answers will differ from case to case.
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Lucky Jim
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« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2019, 05:15:40 PM »

Excerpt
But at what point does empathy, and helpfulness, become unhealthy? How do we draw the line on that?

Right, Sirnut, that's what I'm getting at.  Empathy for the pwBPD is one thing; care-taking another.

Excerpt
I love that you chose the word "noble" because it sounds positive.  I definitely enjoyed feeling noble in my relationship with my ex.  Less flatteringly, I enjoyed feeling superior, too.  Could there be a tie-in here to traits relating to control and superiority?

Exactly, Insom.  Sure, I suspect there is a connection between self-sacrifice and feelings of superiority and/or control.  It does feel good to be a White Knight for a pwBPD!

Excerpt
I think Purplex has a good point here. It feels really crumby to discover that we enabled something, but it's possible we did.

Agree, gotbushels.  I think we enabled a helping dynamic that was unhealthy for both the care giver and care recipient.  At least in my case, it made me quite susceptible to manipulation and abuse by my BPDxW.

LJ
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« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2019, 10:29:31 AM »

Friends,

I expected that something good would come out of all that helping, but it didn't play out that way.  I guess I was naive.  It's not that I kept a mental scorecard in my head; I just thought that, after a lot of effort, things would come around at some point in my marriage to my BPDxW.  Helping turned into a way to avoid or deny my own feelings of deep discontent and unhappiness about living with an abusive person.

LJ

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« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2019, 03:42:20 PM »

But at what point does empathy, and helpfulness, become unhealthy? How do we draw the line on that?

i think empathy (understanding where another person is coming from, and why... .the things that inform where they are coming from) is distinct from helpfulness, and in that way, can never really be unhealthy.

it is usually sympathy (or compassion) that drives us to help another person... .sometimes there are more self driven motivators of course, or a combination of the two.
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« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2019, 06:00:53 PM »

Really good thread Lucky Jim,

Friends,
I suspect that many of us initially became entangled in a BPD r/s out of a sense that, in some fashion, we were "helping" the pwBPD, which feels noble and fosters our attraction to the pwBPD.  Yet now I view helping a pwBPD as unhealthy, if not dangerous, for a Non with codependent tendencies.  Once caught up in the helping dynamic, we leave ourselves open to manipulation through F-O-G (fear, obligation and guilt).  We may assume personal responsibility for the welfare of the pwBPD, which involves sacrificing our own needs for those of the pwBPD as well as putting up with some form of abuse.  It gets crazy.

These days, I think that those w/BPD don't need our help, not really, and that on some fundamental level they would rather not be saved.

Can anyone relate?

LuckyJim

Being co-dependant is the issue here. We only ever accept what we allow others to do to us. I like the premise of DBT training - radical acceptance of the whole BPD person, while acknowledging the need for change. In my limited experience, this is what I have done, initially without knowing about DBT, but now (since the relationship ended) any time I interact.

I tell her and show her that I accept her as a whole, and I have rarely reacted to her acting out. The trouble is this can escalate the acting out, as she is not getting the reaction she is expecting. Endless patience and unconditional love. I'm lucky because it was only a 4 mth relationship, and nothing has been broken beyond repair - either me or the r/s. I can clearly see that if we had been in a longer term r/s, living together etc, I would be in the same spot as so many people on this board.

Letting her know that things need to change is harder. I have always focused upon honesty and trust, but this becomes a challenge for her (undiagnosed and no therapy). I fear that without therapy, the concept of honesty might be appealing, but is also a major threat to her being unmasked.
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Lucky Jim
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« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2019, 11:07:21 AM »

Excerpt
I have rarely reacted to her acting out. The trouble is this can escalate the acting out, as she is not getting the reaction she is expecting.

Right, Luan: those w/BPD seek a reaction and get frustrated if you decline to engage.  Seeking help, of course, is another way to keep the Non engaged in the r/s, which is one reason why helping is such a subtle, yet unhealthy, dynamic.

LuckyJim
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« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2019, 12:04:45 PM »

Excerpt
I expected that something good would come out of all that helping, but it didn't play out that way.  I guess I was naive.

Hey,  Lucky Jim, chiming in to say I can relate with this.  It's a big disappointment to pour your heart and soul into any endeavor and fail to feel appreciated.  Makes you question the structure of the world.  My Achilles' heel for this stuff is work.  I pour my heart and soul into questionable work projects and get frustrated when they don't turn out they way I think they should.  Have come to the conclusion that something is out of alignment.

Nice comments re: co-dependence, Luan.  Questions I'm asking myself:  What do I want?  How to stop craving outside approval?  How to please myself and not feel selfish, like I'm veering into narcissism?
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« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2019, 12:09:31 PM »

I expected that something good would come out of all that helping, but it didn't play out that way. 
it made me quite susceptible to manipulation and abuse by my BPDxW.
I think if you found a way to prevent manipulation and abuse by future partners, then there is something good that came out of all that helping.   
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« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2019, 12:45:15 PM »

I have always been amazed at how the healthiest people push me to be the best person I can be and they don't do things for me that I can do for myself. The family members with BPD, partners with BPD, past friends with BPD, men I am attracted to with BPD,  just don't/didn't have good boundaries and either expect me to do things for them that are unreasonable/not healthy at all for a relationship, and/or try to take care of me in ways that are unhealthy. I think what is truly difficult in dealing with a person with BPD is he/she does not have the same capacity to be an adult in a relationship that more mature individuals have, yet we do have to see what the person is capable of to establish appropriate expectations. How to determine what appropriate expectations are, is the challenge. I will never forget this young women who sat next to me on the airplane that was in a wheel chair who had full use of her hands and returning from a year abroad in Australia. The male flight attendant insisted on helping her buckle her seat belt and talked to her in this condescending pitying voice. How often do we enable the persons with BPD in our lives when he/she is capable of doing more? How do we determine what the persons with BPD need help with which can change at the flip of a switch when his or her behaviors just get out of control?  
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« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2019, 04:17:12 PM »

Interesting thread. I'm kind of a natural people helper, and I've had some training and education. I remember taking a step back from my interactions with my h probably a decade ago now. I realized that none of the normal things that helpers do was actually helping him feel more secure and trusting of me. That realization made me start searching for answers to what the heck was going on.

My h fears deep down that there is something "really wrong" with him, so most of the time, he avoids that. There are some things that he does admit (depression, anxiety, highly sensitive personality, ocd... ).

I've learned a lot about boundaries over the past several years.
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Lucky Jim
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« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2019, 10:52:36 AM »

Excerpt
I think if you found a way to prevent manipulation and abuse by future partners, then there is something good that came out of all that helping.

Agree, gotbushels.  I know myself a lot better now.  I laugh at attempted manipulation, because I can recognize it and am no longer susceptible to it.  I care too much about myself now and vow never to be the object of anyone's abuse again.  I strive to remain vigilant against old, unhealthy patterns.  I choose to address my own issues rather than be a caretaker to others.  I travel light and let go of things that are beyond my control.

LuckyJim
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« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2019, 11:05:25 AM »

Excerpt
I'm kind of a natural people helper, and I've had some training and education. I remember taking a step back from my interactions with my h probably a decade ago now. I realized that none of the normal things that helpers do was actually helping him feel more secure and trusting of me. That realization made me start searching for answers to what the heck was going on.

Hey empath,  I suspect that a lot of us Nons who get involved with pwBPD are "natural people helpers," as you describe.  It took me a long time to grasp that care-taking can be unhealthy for the care giver as well as the care recipient, because on the surface helping seems noble, and it feels good to be a White Knight, deflecting issues off one's shield.  Yet now I see it as a codependent dynamic.

LJ

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« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2019, 12:07:40 PM »

Strong stuff LJ.

I am totally guilty of the care taking mentality. I have been married for 40 years and have done pretty much everything to "take care of" my uBPDstbxW. I swept issues under the rug so many times it makes me sick to think about it. Those small piles under the rug ended up being a mountain. I would apologize for anything to keep the peace. She NEVER apologized. (I literally mean NEVER in 39 years of being married.) I thought I was being "noble".

I worked. She stayed home with the kids. I bought groceries. I cooked as much or more than she did. I planned every activity or vacation we ever were involved in. I was the fix it man. I designed and built 3 houses for our family (contracted them).

Nearly 6 months after we separated, I contacted my ex from 40 years ago. Instantly, she had an excuse to make all of our problems 100% my fault (words out of her mouth).

Now that our divorce is pending, my son told me that "she can't take care of herself". She is the ultimate victim. She's in many ways alienated me from my kids (which also includes my grandkids), who I love more than life itself.

Bottom line, my brother called me out on my what amounted to "care taking" and said (probably rightfully so) that I contributed to the problems.

And the story of life with a uBPD plays out... Totally crazy making...
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« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2019, 12:20:30 PM »

I am starting to examine what makes it satisfying for me to help another person. I once heard that gratitude is the mark of a healthy person. I now try to notice when I do something for someone else whether he/she appreciates my help in some way, and shows some kind of consideration for my well being. If the help I think I am providing is all one sided and the person feels entitled, than I am not really helping, I am enabling that person to continue using others.
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« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2019, 10:00:30 AM »

Hey Barnabus, Don't beat yourself up!  We all could probably have handled things better in our BPD r/s's.  I did my fair share of apologizing, too, with no reciprocity!  It's natural, I think, to seek to keep the peace when married to such a volatile personality as my BPDxW.  Be careful about taking on all the responsibility for your divorce, as those w/BPD are experts at blame shifting, which gets issues off their plate and onto yours.  Your brother probably has a point about care-taking; on the other hand, it's hard for those on the outside to understand what it's really like inside a BPD r/s.  I've been through a divorce from a pwBPD and understand the challenges.  Bear in mind that it can lead to greater happiness, which is what it's all about, right?

LJ

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« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2019, 10:07:19 AM »

Thanks for the kind words LJ.

I think I’m starting to see some light at the end of the tunnel.

B
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« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2019, 05:14:51 PM »

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  "What is to give light must endure burning." ~Viktor Frankl
Can You Help Us Stay on the Air in 2024?

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Our 2023 Financial Sponsors
We are all appreciative of the members who provide the funding to keep BPDFamily on the air.
12years
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