“All that I’ve ever learned from love is how to shoot somebody that outdrew ya”

[JNChell]

It’s not written by Jeff Buckley, but taken from his rendition of the song. Personally speaking, his rendition did the words the justice that they deserve. RIP Leonard Cohen.

This song has made me think deep and hard about love. I once sent it to S4’s mom.

I’m currently angry. I feel lied to, mislead and extorted. I’m having trouble getting past these feelings. Basically, I’m stuck. No closure. No discussion. No apologies.

I think, figuratively, that S4’s mom would rather shoot me than be real about everything. She has wished people to be dead. Why did I stay with that? Maybe it’s because I simply didn’t have the knowledge. There was so much that I should’ve walked away from. A healthy person would’ve walked away from me.

I was raised in a way that caused me to become very reactive and defensive. Nothing in life works out from this standpoint.

Anyone else relate?

[Harri]

I was raised in a way that caused me to become very reactive and defensive. Nothing in life works out from this standpoint.

Hi JNChell.  Yes, I can relate to this.  I have gotten better but I still have to battle my defenses and reactions and those are only the ones I catch.  Who knows what I am missing.

I think part of getting a grip on this is letting yourself get angry and feel the hurt here. 

Why did I stay with that? Maybe it’s because I simply didn’t have the knowledge. There was so much that I should’ve walked away from. A healthy person would’ve walked away from me.

You/we did not have the knowledge.  How could we?  Should haves and would haves do not, I think, apply to these types of things.  You can't look at and assess the past based on the knowledge you have today.  That is a fallacy and leads no where productive.  It just keeps you/us in the position of victim. 

All that I’ve ever learned from love is how to shoot somebody  that outdrew ya

The song Hallelujah is a favorite of mine and I like the version by Jeff Buckley too. 

[Sandb2015]

Good afternoon JNChell and Harri,

A few weeks ago I started listening to music to and actually hearing/seeking the lyrics as though it fit my mood or was telling me something as I was grabbing at straws to figure stuff out.

This song in particular was one of them.

Last Goodbye is the other.

I have calmed done since and have a different perspective, I'm not looking for sadness or to embrace my pain associated with my situation, I'm putting the music on hold for now.

[Harri]

Hi Sandb   

I have calmed done since and have a different perspective, I'm not looking for sadness or to embrace my pain associated with my situation, I'm putting the music on hold for now.

  I am glad you are calmer and found, I assume, a better perspective.   

About music... .it affects my mood, but it is not the words that I listen to (usually).  What draws me in is all the instruments, I feel those more than the lyrics and I stay away from depressing songs. 

Sandb I am glad you are taking a break from music if it bothers you. 

[JNChell]

I had a long message going. It must’ve timed out. You’re right. My thoughts have kept me in a victim phase. No real man is a victim.

I’m not telling you anything that you don’t know when I say that surviving is hard... I want to thrive like you. I’m trying hard to get there, but it feels very far away, if even attainable.

[Harri]

JNChell, you/we have to spend some time being a victim to see all the abuse and grieve it.  Not a damn thing wrong with that.  Eventually we let that go as we move on.  I am still in the victim stage for some stuff.  it is okay as long as we don't let it hold us back or wallow in it.   

No real man is a victim.

What does this mean?

[Sandb2015]

Hey Harri and JNChell,

I had the same question regarding the "no real man thing".

To JNChell... .

I want to thrive like you.

If you're referring to me, you are clearly mistaken, I'm going through my stages and filtering it with logic, compassion for myself.  I'm painfully confronting my codependency, the seeds it's grown from (childhood instances), how it effects me in this relationship that I have very positive thoughts of making work if the chance presents itself.  I had a 6.5/10 seeing my love this morning (pop up)after a few days of NC that she very angry initiated.

I have been following you and you're following me, thank you JNChell.  

Find your triggers, let your emotions fall for a trigger and grab it, look at it, think about it, write it down, put it down, have a drink, watch some TV, pick it up later and repeat until that one thing is something that you control.

Rinse and repeat.

It's so difficult to confront our REAL weakness and how they make us do what we do, need from others.

You have to start somewhere, this works for me and it's very concentrated and extreme, for me required.

Keep posting, keep talking, I'm doing the same.

[Sandb2015]

Another thing... .

I'm suffering greatly, just different than before, I'm suffering to change, NOT to be who I was, not to get into the same cycle, not to be the person that didn't know how to act/think/behave with my love with unBPD.

She will have the opportunity to change for the better as a person, together because unfortunately, I do accept the burden of loving someone with this disease.

I feel positive I/we will have that chance. I'm ready when she is... .

[Harri]

Sandb, thanks for sharing how you process this stuff. 

Find your triggers, let your emotions fall for a trigger and grab it, look at it, think about it, write it down, put it down, have a drink, watch some TV, pick it up later and repeat until that one thing is something that you control.

Rinse and repeat.

This is pretty much what I do.  I don't go looking to be triggered but I won't run from or avoid it either if I am aware of my avoidance (does that make sense?)  My memories can't hurt me.  I am safe.  I have tools and skills now that I did not have before.  I have proven time and again that I will survive them. 

It still sucks though and I may gripe about them.   But mostly I welcome them in the sense that it gives me the opportunity to heal. 
 

I'm suffering to change, NOT to be who I was, not to get into the same cycle, not to be the person that didn't know how to act/think/behave with my love with unBPD.

Well said! 

[Sandb2015]

Thanks Harri,

I know it's pretty unique to me.  I didn't read about it, I went with as close to tangible as possible.  If I see the problem as an object with an origin, it works.  I found myself swimming in poo and almost felt I deserved to be there.  I just needed to swim a foot in either direction and I felt better.

That weed that becomes a tree that ends up looking like the rest (just not as nice, something is off).  That to me are the deep seeded things that intertwine with us in life.

If I can't get the tree down, dig out the roots, I can at least identify the tree from the weed that became one.

It takes true confrontation within yourself, really painful.  I have worked so hard to develop security measures to put those things away without every having to deal with them... .That is until they deal with us.

Right now, I struggle with thinking what my love is doing, is she searching dating sites, has she chatted with guys, is she planning a date, is she doing what she has to do to run and hide from me, memories of me, move on as soon as possible?

That's hard to isolate as a feeling and I can't get my hands on it, torture.

[JNChell]

Hey Harri and Sandb2015. Thanks for talking with me. I guess that I have felt like less than a man for a while. I’m well aware of where this is coming from. That doesn’t make it any easier to deal with. I’m tough and I’m strong physically, but I feel weak at the same time. I have a high tolerance for pain, but it feels like something is missing. Maybe it’s closure/the lack of a positive male figure as a father. Boys need a man. I had a petulant child for a dad. A narcissist. I’m convinced that he was clinical.  He always tried to make me be manly. He was so disappointed in me when I would cry. I remember that well. It embarrassed him, I think. He used to say that, and please pardon the language, that I wouldn’t be like my “pussy cousins”. I remember that well as well. I think that that was when I started catching onto things. It was either that, or he was escalating.

I have a memory box that is full of photos and memorabilia. A couple weeks ago I showed S4 who his grandparents were. The smiling in those pics made me angry. There was nothing happy about that household. My Sis figured out how to navigate it and get the hell out. I’m happy for her.

S4 is asleep next to me. He feels safe with me because he is. I wonder what that feels like at 4 years old. I wonder what it feels like to be a child. I’ll never know. That makes me sad.

[Turkish]

I never had a dad in my life that I remember, and my 1960s feminist mother telling me that she was both my mother and father?  Even as a little kid, I felt that was messed up. I resented her for not providing me a father. Though she gave me "real pee" dolls as a child in am attempt to neuter me, she didn't challenge my manhood. My ex did that, sometimes challenging my manhood decades later.

Even though we are kind of the same,  I didn't have a dad who did that like you did.  

My mom isn't dead, but cut off for the most part. Your parents are dead, obviously cut off from them.

My T told me a few years ago that I was "inventing" as a father, having no basis or history to know how to be a father. Despite this, I know it to my   core how I want to be a father.  

My kids have it better than me and my ex,  despite everything. So does your son. He has you. Believe that and own it.

[JNChell]

 Thank you, Turkish. I’m baffled with where society is going. It’s harmful.

I know your story well. We’re polorized when it comes to having a male in our lives. I guess we could debate and philosophize, but at the at the end of the day we all gather here.

my 1960s feminist mother telling me that she was both my mother and father?

That movement has been hijacked. Terrible things are happening because of it. Boys need men. Little girls need their fathers. The imbalance is indisputable to those that see it .

I imagine that it was pretty confusing to hear that your mom was both. That isn’t ok. Have you ever had contact with your bio dad? Your mom is dying. She may have information.


“Inventing” as a father is comforting to an extent. What else can we do? Sit to the wayside and trust in unicorns? No. We step up and love our children. I relied on S4’s mom a lot for guidance. I’m finding that I do better while figuring things out on my own.

[Turkish]

My bio dad may be still alive (unlike my bio mom), but at 47 myself, what could he teach me? Nothing.  Unicorns are cool, but not helpful. As parents, we need to be the best we can be for our children.  Kids only know what they know. Be better than our parents.

[JNChell]

Good point. He’d likely teach you nothing. My bio dad died from cancer a few months ago. In the little time that I talked to him it was about cigarettes and beer. I did learn that he had a rich father. Not sure what happened there. Why should I even care? Maybe I’m tired of the mystery.