How do I get my relationship back?

[itsmeSnap]

don't give up so soon. Can you identify what you want from that dialogue?

What everyone else seems to want out of the "bettering board":

How do I get my relationship back?

In my case Its not "my" relationship (haven't heard from her in months, I'm ok with that) but I want to figure out the general concept, often the advice is to let go and focus on ourselves which is true, we tend to lose ourselves and obsess over the relationship, but then what?

I've had this lingering feeling that this means "give up". You can't change them, you can't make it better, give up.

But then I also read this:

maybe "you never take my side" means "you never listen".

Excerpt
BP: I knew you weren't good for me.
↑Her splitting preexisted you, therefore isn't your fault.
trying badly to be heard.

Excerpt
BP: Let's break up.
↑Her BPD relationship termination reaction preexisted you, therefore isn't your fault.
trying (badly) even harder to be heard.

Even if I caught her plea, what can I do to "bring her back" from the rabbit hole that is a dysregulation?

I also read that they do it constantly, they get in problems (consciously or impulsively) and off we go to rescue them yet again, and people stop trying or get exhausted doing it over and over.

With my little "flowchart" thing I guess I am trying to figure out how the merry-go-round works so to speak, I'm sure there's a wrench I can throw in there somewhere to stop it at least long enough for the person with BPD to get their "land legs" again and not think spinning is the way the world works and get dizzy when it doesn't.

Maybe the "wrench" is just to not get back up on it (you can't change them, don't engage their antics right?), but then they're still in the thing and you have to just watch them keep spinning out of control and hear people say "they can get off if they wanted, wait for them to take the first step, let them keep spinning for as long as they want/need, they'll come to you when they're ready".

So tough when you see that merry-go-round starts speeding up like an astronaut's g-force centrifuge gone rogue.

I've had my own brush with feeling that "normal" or "a good/perfect" relationship (I thought I had that with my gf) is not normal/real, and I felt a "paranoid moment" I called it then where I was sure my gf was lying to me, I've talked about this elsewhere so I won't go into detail, suffice to say, I need this for my own "healing" as well.

So, back to the original argument:

Yes, the BP predates you so you are not responsible they have it or to "cure it/help them", yet we want to try. We don't have to educate ourselves and try to make the world a better place for everyone through our work, yet we try because we want to, and that should also be ok.

True that their feelings twist their reality. Here is the "potential" I see, it works both ways: when seen positive you can "do no harm ever" even if you do/have (please don't), when painted negative we're "evil incarnate" even if we're trying to be loving and caring.

Their antics are a cry for attention, and also true that they pathologically "jump back in the water" every time they're "rescued", their negative self image keeps welling up negative feelings which tint their reality in the same light.

So, can we combine these two into a "do X before/during one of the numerous crises to elicit a good feeling, so you're 'all good' and better able to lead them to positive outcomes"?

Remember, I'm not trying to solve the underlying issue, I'm just looking for the bandage that will keep the relationship from falling apart (the '--> lets break up' part) before "major surgery" and rehabilitation (actual change in behavior and improved self esteem through DBT or whatever) has worked.

So far the protocol seems to be "remove yourself, hope for the best".

I understand this sounds like looking for a "magic bullet", chemistry came about via  alchemists trying to turn lead into gold (spoiler alert: not possible) so I have hope this leads (me) to something useful.

Thoughts? I'm guessing I got things wrong somewhere but I hope others can see what I can't  
 

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[gotbushels]

itsmeSnap   

Goodly discussion here. I've split it into 2 sections for you. If you feel you need to respond to it all--no worries, just take the pieces you want and we can take it from there.   



Section 1: How do I get my relationship back.

My intention for the first post was to walk a detaching person (and someone probably with an ended relationship) through a simple example. The idea was to give them a perspective that's often different from the one they have while in the relationship.

Specifically; in the relationship, I recall there'll probably be a lot of excessive self-focus (in terms of attribution of fault and being 'stuck' rather than the healthy self-focus that's encouraged in detachment) and excessive responsibility (known to happen with SOs, so it's not a 'bad' thing). The goal is to show that in addition to those views, there are additional ways you can still have self-focus, still have responsibility, and move forward.

So if you want relationship continuity, then there'll probably be differences in how you can look at this example. I hope that will clear some air.

How do I get my relationship back?

Good question. Just like how different women like different things, then the 'how' will differ based on the 'what' you want. Therefore your strategy will differ. So you can take this path as follows.

What traits and qualities of the relationship do you want--can you be specific? Recall that by understanding what BPD is, you may get the relationship 'back'--maybe dozens of times--but your views on what traits and qualities you wanted, perceived then, and perceived now, they may all be different. E.g., one example--what I saw as assertiveness (I wanted this) was actually aggression. So the trait I want there is assertiveness.

Yes, no one is served by picking traits like picking candy, then going to the shop and realising they don't have the coin for it--the point is to start with what you want. Don't try to simultaneously troubleshoot about what you can and can't get with the BP. What traits and qualities do you truly want?

Then, use that information to see what your strategy will be to "get the relationship back".

In my case Its not "my" relationship (haven't heard from her in months, I'm ok with that) but I want to figure out the general concept [... .] but then what?

OK. Good clarification. In your case, here, I encourage you to narrow your question again. Then what with whom? The "then what" will be different if you want relationship continuity with a BP or someone else.

I've had this lingering feeling that this means "give up". You can't change them, you can't make it better, give up.

From this, it looks like you mean a "then what" with a BP. Well, your direction is set by what you want. Improving or detachment--I think the non has to start on some level on a given day which they want.

If you take the tack of improving/continuity, then yes--while it isn't your job to change them--there are ways you can make to improve the relationship.

If you take the jibe of separation/detachment, then yes--while it isn't your job to change them--there are healthy ways you can detach despite it feeling lousy.

But then I also read this: [... .]

Even if I caught her plea, what can I do to "bring her back" from the rabbit hole that is a dysregulation?

Step back a moment. To use a formulaic approach of the quote, what we have is an event (the BP's dialogue sentence), add a view (gotbushels's), and add a view (once removed's). Therefore, event+view+view. Yes, at that given moment, that event may follow the path I put forward, or follow the path once removed put forward. Or it may follow both. Recognising this--now step back. Recall you said 'You can't change them'.

Step back toward the lighthouse idea. To use how Randi Kreger put it, "The lighthouse is not responsible for the ships decisions". Combine that with your job to "make responsible decisions that are congruent with [your] values and beliefs". Pause in that moment and see it ain't your job to bring her back from the black hole.   

Even if I caught her plea, what can I do to "bring her back" from the rabbit hole that is a dysregulation?

Now, your role here is probably to help others and contribute to the board community. So let's answer that on the tack of if we want to continue a relationship with the BP. When the BP dysregulates, the following can be used. First, validate.

Then--after the validation exercise--choose one of these.

A) SET→work through the issue. Get the resolution.

B) Categorise as emotional, relational, or practical issue type. Then, manage the situation per the category.

Of course, there's other applicable tools--don't get bogged down--just pick one and work through it.


So yes, regarding this.

I've had this lingering feeling that this means "give up". You can't change them, you can't make it better, give up.

You can make it better, but if you're in a relationship that has consistently felt "off" (yes, there is 'abuse', violence, infidelity, cutting, alcohol abuse, etc.), then preface the 'making it better' with asking yourself do I want this?. You can make it better, but do you want to?

Improving or detachment--the non has to start on some level on a given day which they want.





Section 2: I'm feeling exhausted by dysregulations--I do a lot of self-care--is there a magic bullet?

I also read that they do it constantly, they get in problems (consciously or impulsively) and off we go to rescue them yet again, and people stop trying or get exhausted doing it over and over.

Yes, then recall this.

A relationship with a borderline requires a great deal of strength - the healthy partner must assume the role of emotional caretaker or emotional leader in the relationship. This requires strength, understanding, knowledge and patience.

Sometimes, expect exhaustion. Expect having a bundle of issues that are solved, unsolved, and work-in-progress.

I'm sure there's a wrench I can throw in there somewhere to stop it

A noble idea. You aren't alone--heaps of nons are fixers with our wrenches.

you have to just watch them keep spinning out of control

A noble idea. You don't have to watch. Watching is still a choice.

So tough when you see that merry-go-round starts speeding up like an astronaut's g-force centrifuge gone rogue.

It is. It's hard seeing someone you love use threats of self-harm and perform on that self-harm to get your attention. It is a thrilling, captivating, entangling ride.

I need this for my own "healing" as well.

Get it done. We're all here at various stages of broken.   

So, back to the original argument [... .]
yet we want to try [... .] yet we try because we want to, and that should also be ok.

Unequivocally yes. It is okay to want to try.

True that their feelings twist their reality. Here is the "potential" I see, it works both ways: when seen positive you can "do no harm ever" even if you do/have (please don't), when painted negative we're "evil incarnate" even if we're trying to be loving and caring.

Yes. That all functions together, it all works together, and in both ways.

So, can we combine these two into a "do X before/during one of the numerous crises to elicit a good feeling, so you're 'all good' and better able to lead them to positive outcomes"?

Yes. Your intention here is a good one. While you can't "do X" to make them "do Y (feel good, think you're good, etc.)". You can prepare the situation to be a good one. It involves things like wising yourself up (into wise mind), self-validation, picking appropriate times, etc. Fruzzetti and Kreger both have how-to's on this. Come back to the lighthouse.

So far the protocol seems to be "remove yourself, hope for the best".

Remember, I'm not trying to solve the underlying issue, I'm just looking for the bandage [... .]

The other way to look at the protocol seems more to me as "validate, then move forward". Recall validation doesn't solve all problems. From there the situation may ask you for a SET or independent resolution.

I understand this sounds like looking for a "magic bullet" [... .]

Nothing wrong with this. I think we all do/did. Part of caretaking for X amount of hours has you looking for easier better faster ways to get through unpleasant stuff you don't want. That's good and human.   

Thoughts? I'm guessing I got things wrong somewhere but I hope others can see what I can't 

Good doubts, but doesn't look like there's any wrongs here. I'm sure if someone has a beneficial view to contribute they'll post it. Don't forget practitioners avoid and are stumped by BPs in their professional lives--so keep to the lighthouse.   



<edit:proofing>

[itsmeSnap]

Step back toward the lighthouse idea. To use how Randi Kreger put it, "The lighthouse is not responsible for the ships decisions"

I understand the point, I really do. You are being the lighthouse here, and yet I am being difficult about it

This is part of the reason why I understand why my gf did what she did, I feel the process too, I felt the doubt, though not in the same way she does probably.

You can make it better, but do you want to?

I understand the og post was about a detaching person but you did it again: "are you sure you don't want to give up?"

Yes I'm sure 

If you take the tack of improving/continuity, then yes--while it isn't your job to change them--there are ways you can make to improve the relationship

To make it better we have to stop making it worse, the sort of mantra that stuck with me.

We can't read minds, unexpected things happen, we can't always brace ourselves for an outburst.

I'm running around in circles on this one: wait it out, stop pursuing, focus on ourselves, "light the beacon" and wait for the storm to pass.

I get that things take time and even if we did all we could we still have to wait for things to "fall into place" so to speak. When first told about "there's nothing to do because we simply don't know" I likened it to being close with a cancer patient going through chemo and seeing all the suffering surrounding the disease and the treatment and you have to just "wait it out", doctors are doing their thing, you are helping by taking care of them and being a "friend", and yet there's nothing else to do.

So yeah, I understand the reality of this.

Now, your role here is probably to help others and contribute to the board community

I am not ashamed to say I started looking at other's posts looking to help myself, approaching only those in a similar enough situation to mine and troubleshooting with them to see if I can get some idea of what worked with them

I helped them get some insight into their relationship, there's been a few "aha!" moments I've seen in them, and yet I still don't know how to really help them. We go through the motions and stop when things become "not a crisis"

Its not that I don't care, I do try to understand their situation, but it's not selfless. Not that it should be anyway.

I maybe got a little sidetracked here. What was the question again? 

Then what with whom? The "then what" will be different if you want relationship continuity with a BP or someone else.

So we've understood we have to focus on ourselves and/or leave the relationship (I'm camp "or" just so we're clear, assume I'm staying despite it all), how do I make my relationship with my gf better?

So broad right? I understand that, there are no details to be had.

What traits and qualities of the relationship do you want--can you be specific?

I want her not to leave. That's a behavior not a trait, we agree to that.

My point is:
"you can't stop her dysregulating"
True, so what do I do when she does
"Focus on yourself"
Doing what exactly?
"Validate, set boundaries, wait for them to respond"
But she won't listen right now, she's dysregulated
"Then be the lighthouse, be the best version of yourself"
I'm doing fine myself, mahalo for the ego boost. Anyway, about dealing with my gf...
"She's an adult, she has to face the consequences of her actions, she's her own independent person even if you don't agree"
Yeah but she's told me this causes her concerns, she asked me to help her, how do I do that?

And I see this on the boards when I try to help others as well. I don't know the answer, so what do I do? I have to ask more questions until someone "gives up" or "moves on". Not the outcome I'm looking for to be honest.

I'm not trying to mock the responses, I know it sounds sort of passive aggressive but I can't remove the frustration tint I'm having while writing it. Mind you, its a low level, manageable frustration, but its there.

So big response to an interesting thread, should we let it flow as is or try to "condense" responses?

[gotbushels]

Yes I'm sure 

Your choices are your own responsibility. 

I'm running around in circles on this one: wait it out, stop pursuing, focus on ourselves, "light the beacon" and wait for the storm to pass.

Someone asked me once, "who is chasing you?"

So yeah, I understand the reality of this.

Good on you. Sometimes when I deal with a difficult wait, it helps me see that there's no one chasing me--no BP ex either. You can be happy in your wait.

I am not ashamed to say [... .] but it's not selfless. Not that it should be anyway.

Well yes, no one said participation has to be selfless. If the board exchange is giving yourself trust and support, and you get to contribute to the community--then it's a win-win relationship.   

What was the question again? 

Purpose would be to show a simple example to help a detaching non's recovery.

Anyway, about dealing with my gf...
[... .]
Mind you, its a low level, manageable frustration, but its there.

Well OK, if you ask a question and you don't feel you got an answer, then of course you're going to feel frustrated.

Let's use what you said to narrow your question, then hopefully you can get the answer you're seeking.

My point is:
[... .]
Anyway, about dealing with my gf...
[... .]
Yeah but she's told me this causes her concerns, she asked me to help her, how do I do that?
[... .]

By this do you mean helping her to reduce the quantity of her dysregulations?

[... .] on the boards [... .] I have to ask more questions until someone "gives up" or "moves on". Not the outcome I'm looking for to be honest.

I encourage you here to recognise that just because a member stops participating on a thread, that doesn't mean they gave up or moved on (without taking away a satisfying answer). They could be well satisfied with what they got and for whatever reason didn't want to post a reply. Some members get great takeaways, others don't--don't sweat it.   

[itsmeSnap]

Someone asked me once, "who is chasing you?"

I am the one doing the chasing, that wabbit of an answer sure is hard to catch. I know the resolution to the analogy here: lay the "trap", wait for it to get itself caught right?

then it's a win-win relationship.

yeah I'm seeing it that way, kind of a "collateral benefit" helping others 

By this do you mean helping her to reduce the quantity of her dysregulations?

Not the quantity, the "severity" of them. As in, dysregulation starts, how do I help her get back to baseline. The answer is always "wait it out".

Imagine someone with an intense allergic reaction gasping for air and all you are told is to "be there for them and wait it out", but like, can I get an epipen at least? It doesn't cure the allergy and its for emergencies only because side effects, but when things get dangerous (others mention self harm, violence, etc. Not my case, she just "goes away" and doesn't talk to me for months) I wish we had a similar tool available.

Some members get great takeaways, others don't--don't sweat it

Like me! I'm still looking for this answer, so don't sweat it if we can't figure it out. Part of the process as well.
 

[gotbushels]

Thanks for the feedback Tsultan- I'm glad it's relatable and helps you get that understanding that no one is 100% responsible for the relationship--even if it may feel that way at some given time.



itsmeSnap   

I'm running around in circles on this one:

Hmm. I meant the question of "who is chasing you" to introduce the idea that if the running is exhausting you or frustrating you, then perhaps you feel dogged by something--i.e., you're the one being chased by something you haven't investigated yet. But let's try to integrate what you responded with.

I am the one doing the chasing, that wabbit of an answer sure is hard to catch.

Is it perhaps that your desire to improve the relationship with the BP is driving you to chase the answer? Is the drive part of a need for this specific relationship?

"collateral benefit" helping others 

Right.    Mutual trust and support.

Let's use what you said to narrow your question

Not the quantity, the "severity" of them. As in, dysregulation starts, how do I help her get back to baseline. The answer is always "wait it out".

Great narrowing. Now that's a specific question.   

I think you were told to wait it out based on the idea that managing a dysregulation is the BP's job. I think the main idea behind that is to allow the BP to build that trust (Note1) in their ability to regulate themselves. Hence the answer to wait it out.

Let's do a quick empathy exercise to see what happens if you don't wait it out. The other option is to help the BP to manage their dysregulation. The issue with this would probably be that you're providing an enabling role to allow their dysregulation to continue. In the short term it may not be an issue, but in the long term, if they're going through a tough dysregulation--and you aren't available for whatever reason, then their ability to cope will be without the crutch (you). You may think it's fine for an hour's dysregulation on a Saturday (I thought this in my relationship), but these things can come at 12am on a Tuesday or 3pm on a Thursday--maybe for 4 hours instead of 1. The demands placed on your time may in reality be too great. Hence, the faster they learn to handle it themselves, the better it will be for you. Therefore, it is against your interest to make yourself the enabler during dysregulation.

I understand the allergic reaction thing. So is there a middle ground? Maybe. I think you can validate and do dysregulation managing with her when you're available, and build limits to when you're unable to do this. I'll share a bit here. I picked approximately this path.

Does that answer your question?


Note1: I'm assuming a big thing here that the BP has stable enough self image or object permanence to do this--keep in mind that lower levels of this will encumber their ability to build trust in their self.

[itsmeSnap]

The issue with this would probably be that you're providing an enabling role to allow their dysregulation to continue. In the short term it may not be an issue

My point exactly! 

Its a bit morbid to say but we're all dead long term. Long term your friend will get his master's diploma and have a career and a family of their own, he'll be fine, short term he played too much beer pong with his frat buddies and needs to have his stomach pumped; put him on his side and call the ambulance, don't just "wait it out".

See what I mean?

Of course, after the crisis is over you educate them on responsible drinking (self regulation), but you don't lecture a passed out drunk person on when's a drink one too many, they're "impaired" already.

Here on the boards we focus on the long term (self regulation), but I feel the "crutch" as you called is also needed, though its avoided precisely because it can become maladaptive (enabling, manipulation). Pain meds help save lives, and they're also a drug epidemic (a cousin of mine died of overdose), I understand full well why people tread very carefully and steer clear of this.

Does that answer your question?

Not really 

But let's integrate what we got so far:
Step 1:

The other option is to help the BP to manage their dysregulation. The issue with this would probably be that you're providing an enabling role

True, there are side effects. This is a cost-benefit analysis: is enabling now the lesser evil compared to their dysregulation? (reckless behavior, self harm, legal trouble)

Note that people do this for years (marriages of 30+ years) on their own without knowing how to move on to step 2 and I think this is why the focus is on "stop doing it". What if we could "do it right" instead?

"Snap, this is where the tools come in". Yeah, but those are applied once dysregulation subsides, and "waiting it out" is the "healthiest" enabling tool it seems.

Step 2:

So is there a middle ground? Maybe. I think you can validate and do dysregulation managing with her when you're available, and build limits to when you're unable to do this

Building on their own self soothing is were we normally pick "treatment/management" up. I understand this is needed, but in my experience they don't accept it when they're acutely dysregulated. Cue step 1: resolve dysregulation (through unsustainable but temporary "enabling") to help them become amenable to assisted self regulation.

Step 3:
I don't have a quote for this one, but its what most people call "recovery". Flareups subside, they become mindful and able to self soothe, episodes are fewer and far between. Everyone involved knows the tools, use them on the regular and help to move forward. rocky but "healthy" relationships becomes possible.

Maybe I missed a few steps

[gotbushels]

itsmeSnap good ideas. I think a lot of people on the boards in those long term relationships have considered ideas similar to what you're mentioning here, so no worries--you're in a good company.

Step 1 [... .]
What if we could "do it right" instead?

People in long term relationships don't only use the "stop doing it" approach. There are people on the boards who combine managing the BP with things like seeking treatment and improving the BP's skills in the medium to long term.

Yeah, but those are applied once dysregulation subsides,

Yes tools can be applied after. Validation is often applied during dysregulation when the non is present. A issue for many nons is actually not using tools outside of the dysregulation with the BP.

"waiting it out" is the "healthiest" enabling tool it seems.

Yes waiting it out may be enabling. Additionally, to remove yourself from the situation--a form of waiting it out--is to let the BP experience the consequences of their behaviour and rely on their own strengths enough to self-resolve. That's playing a not-enabling role with the dysfunctional behaviour. It's also encouraging self-activation in the BP, which a lot of people want for their partners.

Step 2: [... .]
I understand this is needed, but in my experience they don't accept it when they're acutely dysregulated.

Surely. You can't logic someone when they're in a dysregulated state. Hence, people advocate managing things in order.

Step 3:

I was very supportive and helpful when I should have worried about my 3 kids and I , and let her figure things out alone.
[... .]
My feeling is that me ''helping'' her was really ''helping '' me and hurting her.

I played this game and danced away for 2 years or less all the while talking on this board with some friends while actually making things worse.
[... .]
Therpay helped me regain my strength.
[... .]
She took the therapy choice which was very extensive
[... .]
Today ,my family is strong and happy. My wife has done exceptionally well.

I encourage you to have a read of successful improvements and successful detachments. That way you can have a balanced view, are able to make a wiser decision on this, then choose. So what are you going to do about your ideas here itsmeSnap?

[itsmeSnap]

let her figure things out alone.

I am having a hard time figuring out things on my own, a dysregulated person would have started slinging toxicity out of frustration already.

That way you can have a balanced view, are able to make a wiser decision on this, then choose

"Snap, you got it all wrong, your decision is dumb, do this instead".
I'm being cheeky about this but validation is one tricky pony isn't it?   

So what are you going to do about your ideas here

Probably write a book on it
If Randi Kreger (co-author of stop walking on eggshells, "sort of required reading" on BPD), who I recently found out is not a mental health professional managed it then I guess why not right?   

Anyway, I guess I still need to work on it. I still don't know what is it about "waiting it out" that's effective, maybe that clues me in to other viable "solutions".

[gotbushels]

"Snap, you got it all wrong, your decision is dumb, do this instead".

Yes a bit of a cheeky spirit in the discussion. Well, I didn't say this.  

You proposed:

Step 1:
Step 2:
Step 3:

I don't have a quote for this one, but its what most people call "recovery".

Flareups subside, they become mindful and able to self soothe, episodes are fewer and far between. [... .]. rocky but "healthy" relationships becomes possible.

I was using John Galt's example to show one member who performed on your step 3. Therefore it can be done and people have done it. Then--assuming you see those steps of yours are possible--to be appraised before you choose. To be appraised is what I meant by "have a balanced view, are able to make a wiser decision on this, then choose." So move forward on your own integrated ideas.



The issue is:

As in, dysregulation starts, how do I help her get back to baseline.

You came up with 3 steps.    The treatment or management (in steps 2 or 3 or both) allows the BP to self-regulate (with some corresponding relationship effect) thereby facilitating a reduction in dysregulation.

I also shared 3 choices with you.
1. Wait out her dysregulation.
2. Help her with dysregulations.
3. Help her with dysregulations with limits.

Move forward on your own integrated ideas. Recall that not doing anything and not choosing are also choices. There's no right or wrong answer here. So what are you going to do about the ideas here itsmeSnap?

I felt my honor and values attacked. But I didn't JADE.

It's hard not to JADE when under attack. I respect that Turkish.

Great self statement. I think it's something we all aspire to. It's also hard to accept for nons that the relationship they've discovered may involve cheating as a necessary and unwanted passenger on what's often our "most important relationship". Realising cheating isn't something that could be excised--I felt that was a tremendously unpleasant realisation. So I admire getting through that to a point of acceptance.

[itsmeSnap]

So what are you going to do about the ideas here itsmeSnap?

I'm not sure I understand the question?

Move forward on your own integrated ideas

I feel like a blind man hearing people talk about beautiful colors, I understand its a "good thing" but I have no "real" idea what you mean by this.

Ok, let me try a different avenue.

I've skimmed a few sites on dbt and looked through the self soothing and distress tolerance sections. They talk about distraction, indulging the senses, taking a timeout physically or mentally, and relaxation.

Lets imagine I'm trying to help my gf manage her dysregulation through these same techniques but directed by me instead of her. This should be possible right? Its the good old "Don't think of a pink elephant" charade.

This is what I'm getting at: why haven't we figured out a way to distract the self doubting person, how do we remove the problem from their consciousness if only for a minute, how do we bring forward a good feeling that will steal the focus from the distress.

Have you seen the movie patch adams? I guess its something along those lines. In his story the point is that laughter doesn't cure the body, but it does feed the soul.

Quality matters, and though "letting them figure it out on their own" is good and valid, like being given a prescription and off you go, I think we as a community need a better way to handle those moments when we see the person we love become consumed by the disorder and not just wait for the damage to be done when they fail to self soothe.

Anyway, I think I'm rambling at this point. Someone please paraphrase me so I can see where/if I'm not communicating effectively 

[gotbushels]

I have no "real" idea what you mean by this.

OK--what I mean by this is take action or decide on a next step (move forward) based on what you've discovered here.

I'm not sure I understand the question?

OK. You asked for answers to this issue:

As in, dysregulation starts, how do I help her get back to baseline.

You came up with steps to take, and I provided you with choices.

  Each of us are ultimately accountable for our choices--both the BP and the non. Therefore, which of these steps or choices do you want to implement with your relationship with your BPSO?

[itsmeSnap]

OK--what I mean by this is take action or decide on a next step (move forward) based on what you've discovered here.

I understand now.

The nudge towards step 2 & 3, step 1 is "toxic" and you're asking me to move away from it and into the self-reliant strategies.

I understand your point, but I think the question answered is similar, but not quite what I have in mind:

You answered: How do I (help her) reduce the number and severity of her dysregulations?
True, I did write this when I asked. This takes step 2 and 3 and a lot of resilience and maintenance. We agree on that.

My "real" question is: How do I (help her) reduce the severity/resolve any one particular dysregulation?

I may have moved the bar a little, its a little nuance that makes a difference in what I'm getting at here

Its the acute vs the chronic. "Chronic BPD" is indeed managed through steps 2 & 3, I still don't understand how, other than "wait it out", do we resolve "acute" BPD episodes. So yes, it is indeed answered, though not in the what I was hoping for.

Ok so, so far I haven't presented any options myself.

I've skimmed a few sites on dbt and looked through the self soothing and distress tolerance sections. They talk about distraction, indulging the senses, taking a timeout physically or mentally, and relaxation.

Why does a person with BPD engage in risky behavior? because it indulges the senses.
Why does a person with BPD split? its a mental timeout
Why does a person with BPD attach intensely and fast? its both a distraction from the "breakup distress" and indulging the senses (honeymoon phase people go out, do things, etc)

This is not new info, it's documented that these are coping mechanisms; maladaptive, but still.

Using the same framework, DBT tries to teach the BPD to attach the strategies to new behaviors, this is step 2.

Unfortunately, for step 2 to work, the BPD needs to be "lucid" enough to work through the examples; In "acute" cases I would expect the same examples to work in helping the BPD to get "back to baseline". It is indeed framed as "teaching the person to self regulate", though at the same time, it is a guided exercise, like what I'm looking for. This is Step 1.

My focus is on this (quote from a few sites on dbt distress tolerance skills):

PUSH AWAY
When you can’t deal with something just yet, it’s okay to push the problem out of your mind temporarily. You can push away by distracting yourself with other activities, thoughts, or mindfulness. You can even set a time to come back to the issue. You know that it will be addressed, and you can relax in the interim.

As you can see, BPD's indeed do this, though again, maladaptively by stonewalling partners and leaving relationships for new ones.

Simply because a strategy works and is widely accepted as part of the healing process doesn't mean there aren't better alternatives.

Next point:

Splitting is considered a coping mechanism that helps a person with BPD avoid getting hurt. It allows them to discard things and people they have decided are all bad. In spite of the fact that it is meant to be a coping mechanism, splitting can cause a person with BPD to experience intense episodes of rage or depression that may last for days.[... .]Chronic emptiness and fear of abandonment can also cause idealization of another person, which means believing the other person is all good or perfect.

Again, the comparison is not lost on me. It is an effective strategy poorly utilized.

Sometimes the projection is an exaggeration of something that has a basis in reality. [... .]

The BP's unconscious hope is that by projecting this unpleasant stuff onto another person [... .] the person with BPD will feel better about themselves. And they do feel better, for a little while. But the pain comes back. So the game is played again and again.

Emphasis mine.
Again, short term "effective" strategies, poorly utilized.

Here I see a proverbial wrench: If BPD's are so adept at projecting bad feelings onto others, could we "deflect" them and have them land onto another, "healthier" alternative? maybe even an inanimate object that can be easily removed/destroyed? Thinking of the horcruxes in harry potter. 

There are religious rituals using this concept all around the world, often as "new beginings" (new years, change of seasons, etc):

The burning ceremony morphed from a religious ritual to become a way of releasing old resentments, hurt, grudges, regrets, or suffering, and focus on what is more significant to us.

"Burning our thoughts away" is a physical representation of the mental process, it is an imagery exercise. By "projecting the thought" onto paper it can be safely destroyed, or at least removed from the mind.

Using imagery, you can create a situation or a scene that is different from the one that you are now in. [... .] Let your hurtful feelings drain or wash out of you, relieving you and making you more comfortable

So, by distracting, projecting, and ultimately using "removal/destruction" imagery, could we help a dysregulation subside?

A "ridiculous" example: Imagine the wife is mad about you not doing the dishes. Instead of reacting to her accusations, you deflect, "I told the dishes to take a shower, they stink, said they'd do it right away, damn dishes lied to me! don't worry honey, I got your back, I'll show them who's boss around here, nobody disrespects my wife's like that!"   and proceed to do the dishes, maybe throw a plastic one out with the trash "look honey, I found the leader, he's going down with the garbage for what he's done!". 

This is of course, absolutely ridiculous and is meant to be funny to distract from the (unwarranted/exagerated) distress of the dishes not being done, while at the same time making the dysregulated person amenable to talking about/working through the real underlying issue (which is often there, manifested through the innocuous "dishes not done") that precipitated the crisis by eliciting a "feel good, connectedness and cooperation" feeling.

Could this work? more magical thinking? should this be split into a new thread entirely?
So many questions! 

[gotbushels]

So yes, it is indeed answered, though not in the what I was hoping for.

  That point I marked at  is where you can make your choice about what to do with dysregulations (if you've chosen to stay in the relationship).

Unfortunately, for step 2 to work, the BPD needs to be "lucid" enough to work through the examples;

Yes. For a BP to learn skills, they often cannot be in a dysregulated state.

Simply because a strategy works and is widely accepted as part of the healing process doesn't mean there aren't better alternatives.

Yes, there may be other alternatives. Pushing Away is 1 skill in Distress Tolerance. If I single out 1 out of 7 skills (out of 4 categories of Distress Tolerance), then see it as the only one used, then of course I may want a better alternative. And yes, whether something is a widely accepted technique in the community or the board, that depends on the sample I'm looking at. Then, I may feel frustrated because I have other responsibilities than becoming proficient at DBT. Perhaps I take this research to the qualified T I've hired to adjunct my relationship--this is their job, they'll probably be better at it.

[... .] projecting bad feelings onto others, could we "deflect" them and have them land onto another, "healthier" alternative?

Yes, most people don't want projections landing on them. I get the horcrux idea. It's good to pay attention to your wants and intuition.

maladaptively by stonewalling partners and leaving relationships for new ones.

As a partner, getting stonewalled can hurt. If someone refuses when we want to talk with them, then we may feel rejected. Of course, I'd expect that a large majority of people feel this way.

Unfortunately, the more we want something, the more painful it feels to not get it--it can feel exquisitely painful. Partners of BP's probably know this very well because for whatever reason (crucial in effective recovery) they feel they must have this relationship--it's something they want deeply. Then when I don't get it (e.g., when a person is stonewalled) wow that instantly stings.

My "real" question is: How do I (help her) reduce the severity/resolve any one particular dysregulation?

It seems you a have a specific instance in mind. Managing dysregulations can be frustrating.

It may be more productive and effective for you to go deeper than the dysregulation. It's important to not only look at intellectual aspects of a situation, but also to take action. Let's start with these; where are you in your relationship right now with the BP? When do you expect the next dysregulation?

I'll go first to support your sharing.

The relationship with UexBPDgf and I ended about 4 years ago. The last texts were in September 2014.

Today, I expect dysregulations never to happen.

But if I was in the relationship with the BP, I will expect about 4–8 dysregulations a month. Which places weekly frequency at 1–2 per week, and also expecting very large volatility in occurrences.

[itsmeSnap]

Therefore, which of these steps or choices do you want to implement

3. Help her with dysregulations with limits.

Choice made.

If I single out 1 out of 7 skills (out of 4 categories of Distress Tolerance), then see it as the only one used, then of course I may want a better alternative

I changed the "structure" of my reply, that part was a bit of a remanent of a discarded thought process that I guess I did not remove.

The point that goes along with it is that we as "nons" are encouraged to "wait it out" like we mentioned before, and that I think there should be an alternative. Put another way: "Simply because waiting it out works and is widely accepted as part of the healing process doesn't mean there aren't better alternatives that we nons/partners can use to help a dysregulated loved one".

So ok, that was out of its proper context and might have derailed the point I was making about "pushing away" and the other distress tolerance skills I mentioned. Here I make a comparison of techniques that "work" for the pwBPD even though they are not used effectively by them towards long term improvement. They're "quick fixes", in line with my "alternative dysregulation resolution" ideas.

My point was: If a person with BPD can use them to feel temporarily better, can we as nons/partners use them to cause them to feel temporarily better as well, though in a "healthier context", and therefore pave the way for allowing themselves to embrace the skills to self regulate effectively in the future?

And yes, whether something is a widely accepted technique in the community or the board, that depends on the sample I'm looking at

Is "wait it out/remove yourself" not widely accepted as a way to deal with a dysregulated person?

I may feel frustrated because I have other responsibilities than becoming proficient at DBT. Perhaps I take this research to the qualified T I've hired to adjunct my relationship--this is their job, they'll probably be better at it.

"You're not a mental health professional Snap, give up"
you did it again gotbushels 

It seems you a have a specific instance in mind.

I had a teacher in college, he had a bunch of diplomas and had published articles and was highly recommended.

Turns out he was a very poor teacher. The whole class realized he didn't know what he was talking about. I called him out on it in front of the class, he got so anxious about not knowing how to respond to us that he had to leave the class, called in sick for over a week to not have to "deal with us".

The group decided we'd go to the dean and make our case: the teacher was not qualified, and we were missing out on an important subject. Everyone aced the last test he gave us, so it's not like we're trying to get rid of him because his class is too hard.

All the dean heard was "[... .] test [... .] we're trying to get rid of him [... .] class is too hard"

The dean disregarded our the whole "running out of the classroom in anxious sweat over not being able to answer a simple question" situation because he latched on to the idea that we didn't like his class because it was too hard.

He stayed teaching, we all aced the semester, the next group complained "more vocally" about him, he did the exact same thing again, he was replaced mid semester.

My point is, I feel like we end up discussing a very specific subset of what I'm talking about and the general idea is not getting through. In both cases, it could be a bad case of "I'm bad at communicating my point effectively" since I was the "common variable", the one to deliver the message both times.

I think (keyword: think) I understand the point you're trying to make and I'm either not getting through or you're pulling off a kung fu panda "dragon scroll" thing where you want me to see the answer is within me all along . I also understand I might be closing off tunnel vision style on my own argument.

where are you in your relationship right now with the BP?

Just for completeness and a bit of background on me and the relationship that got me here:

No contact for 3+ months, she's in another relationship (second one since "breaking up with me", maybe third). I do not expect her to come back and I'm ok with that, though its been known to happen up to 6+ months past the last "breakup", 2+ years knowing her.

[gotbushels]

No contact for 3+ months, she's in another relationship

OK. If the issue (the BP's dysregulations) isn't a present issue for you; and if the problem is neither yours because you aren't the BP (this isn't the non's job) nor is it yours because you aren't the BP's partner (this isn't this non's job either), then what is the root cause of your interest in trying to create a solution for this?

[itsmeSnap]

and if the problem is neither yours because you aren't the BP (this isn't the non's job) nor is it yours because you aren't the BP's partner (this isn't this non's job either)

My problems are not yours either, and yet you try to help me.

then what is the root cause of your interest in trying to create a solution for this?

Not to derail the conversation but why are my motives for this important?

What is your interest in my issues?

Again, I'm being difficult about this, I know you're trying to help.

So, back to my example, is there any merit to it?

[gotbushels]

I'm here to help itsmeSnap. I know going through issues like this can feel frustrating--it's very much like other work.   

My problems are not yours either, and yet you try to help me.

Yes, that's right. Sometimes I choose to help people with problems that aren't mine. Our relationship isn't one of BP and non--we are board members trying to help each other on issues, sharing learnings, and hopefully making better decisions for ourselves.

Choice made.

Good on you. I made this choice too. Dealing with dysregulations is tough even for the non as the partner. When you consider things--then make a decision--it's important to recognise the work you got through, and the initiative required to make a choice on the work you did.

Not to derail the conversation but why are my motives for this important?

No worries. Asking why goes beyond the question. E.g., I don't want to antagonise my partner, what do I do? Then asking why will lead to things like, "I love her", "I don't want to make the situation worse", or maybe not so noble things like "I hate dealing with her dysregulations on Sunday", asking why gets closer to the moving principle.

What is your interest in my issues?

On Learning, my interest in a member's issues would be to participate and discuss what other nons have learned or are learning from their experiences. I'm most interested in how people who've had similar experiences to mine (BPD partners) have come out surviving and thriving forward in their lives. In the short term, I get satisfaction from working through ideas with nons, figuring out what's healthy what isn't, and making choices.

So, back to my example, is there any merit to it?

If a person with BPD can use them to feel temporarily better, can we as nons/partners use them to cause them to feel temporarily better as well, though in a "healthier context", and therefore pave the way for allowing themselves to embrace the skills to self regulate effectively in the future?

If you're asking if the non can use the skill to feel better, then absolutely. I've used them myself!

Then the part about, will the BP follow your example as a motive to use those skills? Here's the hard truth. You'll doing a good job trying to get her to improve her BPD dysregulations. You're doing a good job encouraging her to use the skills by demonstrating the rewards of their use to her (helping her live the benefit, thereby motivating her to learn the skill). But it's still her decision how to act.



So, no worries, if you have more thoughts, keep developing them forward--but try to get back to the other part of the issue,   

[... .] what is the root cause of your interest in trying to create a solution for this?

[itsmeSnap]

Our relationship isn't one of BP and non

I only like you as a friend gotbushels, lets not make this weird   

If you're asking if the non can use the skill to feel better, then absolutely.

More like if the non can use it to make the other person feel better.

For example: my joke can make you laugh, laughing makes you feel good, therefore, I can use jokes to make you feel good.

Would a joke make you happy long term? probably not, but if you're down a joke can lift your spirits long enough to accept my friendship and allow me to start you on a more "constructive path" than wallowing in your sadness.

It can miss the mark obviously, its not bulletproof.

figuring out what's healthy what isn't

That's why I'm not saying this approach is a long term solution or it goes against recommended practices; its a patch, a "put some ice on it and rush him to the hospital" kind of thing.

I'm most interested in how people who've had similar experiences to mine (BPD partners) have come out surviving and thriving forward in their lives

So what have you learned so far regarding dysregulations?

In my limited review of other's success stories its mostly a crisis leads to an ultimatum for change (therapy or divorce/moving out/take the kids) leads to self work leads to recovery.

Obviously this is "survivor biased" as in only those who took "constructively" to the ultimatum can end up as success stories, and those who A) didn't take it or B) took it and still fell off the recovery path are obviously not mentioned in those stats.

Unfortunately, and this was also the case when my gf would circle back around to me or even to her "other ex", change is seemingly precipitated by a crisis: when they are at their lowest, they try to climb back up. The ultimatum also foreshadows a further crisis: either do this or have your life shaken and changed in a "catastrophic way".

"Waiting it out" and "letting them feel the consequences of their actions" gives them  ample opportunity to precipitate their own crises, puts them in a vulnerable position. To me, that's more of a power move than a "therapeutic intervention".

This, though also effective, is not "healthy" in my mind: its a last ditch effort, and BPDs also do this in this particular way, by saying they will break up with you if you keep going to the market because the cashier girl smiled at you and therefore you don't love them anymore.

Its an exaggerated and made up example, but I hope it illustrates my thinking.

So, Imagine you have a really nice pool, your partner can't swim but she's eager to try it out. She knows the pool is deep, you told her, but jumps anyway because she's so excited and you're a stiff for thinking safety all the time.

Now again, she can't swim, so she starts sinking and gasping for air.

The typical "codependent" response is to jump into the pool and "save her", she proceeds to tell you that was fun and jump right back in for you to save her again.

The other option is to lay down the ultimatum, so you tell her "you jump back into that pool and me and the kids won't stay around and watch you drown"

My suggestions are along the lines of how about throwing down some pool noodles and make it safe and exciting for her and everyone involved to learn to swim? the noodles don't teach her to swim, but short term they stop her drowning and at the same time make it a functional and fun pool experience where everyone can relax and have a barbecue around.

Obviously again other "use cases" of the noodles have not been explored, some productive, some not so much: she can reject the noodles, she can reject your swimming lessons, she can try to figure out a way to plug the pool filter with them, or she can try to figure it out how to make a raft out of them on her own, maybe demand a duck floatie instead of your boring noodles.

Point is, there are options, with pro's and cons, and I'm trying to look into less "crisis-ey" ways to bring about change.

Makes sense?

[gotbushels]

More like if the non can use it to make the other person feel better.

I don't recall any skill where the non does something and the BP feels better. I think the closest thing to that is validation. In that case the non validates something, then the BP down-regulates, which is akin to the BP feeling better.

So what have you learned so far regarding dysregulations?

Haha in the last 5 years? You may have to ask a specific question.  

[... .] gf would circle back around to me or even to her "other ex", change is seemingly precipitated by a crisis: [... .]

Mm yes. There are those stories where the point of change is the treatment-or-bust ultimatum.

"Waiting it out" and "letting them feel the consequences of their actions" [... .] To me, that's more of a power move than a "therapeutic intervention".

Yes. Them being hurt by their actions as the consequence is the catch. It's difficult trying to let someone learn like that, especially when you love them.

Regarding the power move thing, in some ways it is. It's a power move in the sense that you're willing to stick up for yourself, break the cycle of whatever behaviour you're dealing with that you don't want, and be willing to let them hurt themselves (including the loss of the relationship) if they behave like that again. Not everyone has that kind of power to get it done.

The thing we can learn from this here--through the DBT ideas--is that caretakers also have their own objectives, relationship goals, and criteria for self-respect. As caretakers, we give them the right to stand up for their self-respect--the corollary right there is that the caretaker gets that right too (take what rights you give). Now if the BP behaves in a way that goes against the caretaker's values, then the caretaker thereby has the right to act to stand up for their self respect. How it manifests in the teach-by-consequences issues is being willing to let them lose the relationship if they do something that contravenes the caretaker's self respect.

And yes, it's a bum deal for them if they don't know that cheating leads to relationship termination. But no, it's not a bum deal for them if you've told them the consequences that are going to happen. The caretaker performs with integrity of action, even if the BP doesn't.

Of course, not all pwBPDs were created the same, some don't have issues like this, some do. Many issues are workable--and I'm not advocating that people separate.

This, though also effective, is not "healthy" in my mind: its a last ditch effort, [... .] saying they will break up with you if you keep going [... .]

Good example. Maybe I can share an actual example here.

Basically, something set off my UexBPDgf. She went to one of her dysregulation patterns of breaking up, leaving the house (we lived together), drinking alcohol, and finding other men. Usually in some assorted order.

The specific issue is doing this behaviour set when she gets upset. The consequence is she hurts herself, which could include: gets picked up by a stranger, taken advantage of at a bar or club, has a sexual liaison with a person she'll end up regretting it with, finds another caretaker/boyfriend, or gets an STD.

So, given that I loved her, and we don't want to see people we allegedly love get hurt, and of course I don't want to go through the cheating/trust discussion with her for the nth time--and of course I don't need yet another third party--then of course, I attempted to validate and walk her through not doing it. Says easy, does hard.

Anyway, it didn't work, and she ran off. So I decided to break my pattern of rescuing and not feed her behaviour. I saw a choice, and I took it. Part of that choice was the magical feeling of control you get by using tools gracefully and effectively, part of that was out of frustration of having to manage this person's dysregulation for the nth time that month. Lesson here is yes, I used the tools I had, and yes I let her experience the consequences as a last resort.


For some nons, letting them experience the consequences, or "wait it out" is a last resort. I get the pool noodle thing. I can see your spirit of compassion there. And you also have to account for that BP dysregulations often don't go how we plan them.

Oh by the way--I did go after her and talk her back to the house later, so don't worry--she didn't auto-destruct that night.

keep developing them forward--but try to get back to the other part of the issue,   

[Coldfish]

I might be the odd man out but i do not think it helps anyone to constantly try to validate someones actions. I think people blame everything on someones diagnosis. And how does it help or be good for someone to allow someone's bad behavior?

I agree that someone is not good for someone that allows that person to do whatever with no consequence or explains everything away.

(This is not directed at anyone)

[itsmeSnap]

And how does it help or be good for someone to allow someone's bad behavior?

I agree that someone is not good for someone that allows that person to do whatever with no consequence or explains everything away.

Hey coldfish! 

True, my goal is to not look for ways to enable bad behavious, but to "nip it in the bud" before a dysregulation escalates into crisis from impulsive/reckless behavior.

Its true that its not good to enter a dysfunctional dynamic, keeping with the pool example, to take the plunge to rescue every time.

We have power to act on our own, and their actions do affect us, same as our actions affect them.

My goal with all this is to look for actions I can take to affect someone positively, push the negative emotion away from them and bring about a feel good state, and with the whole "emotion equals reality" (oversimplification, more like "affects heavily"), can that feel good state make their outlook on the relationship and the tools better?

Again, its true that they have the power to decide what to do about their situation freely and consciously, I'm not talking about some mind control stage hypnotist thing, more like a way to clear the haze of perceived negativity so that the real issue can be identified and work on as recommended.

I don't recall any skill where the non does something and the BP feels better. I think the closest thing to that is validation.

YES! you can start to see the similarity to what I'm looking for

In that case the non validates something, then the BP down-regulates, which is akin to the BP feeling better.

Our actions do have an effect on their emotional state, just as theirs have an effect on our own mind.

Haha in the last 5 years? You may have to ask a specific question

Can't think of anything specific right now. Rain check 

There are those stories where the point of change is the treatment-or-bust ultimatum.

Could there be an alternative? or is crisis->change the only way?

Them being hurt by their actions as the consequence is the catch. It's difficult trying to let someone learn like that, especially when you love them.

Tough love eh? does the end justify the means?

My cousins grabbed a boiling hot pan of soup, obviously his hand was burnt, but he also spilled the pot on his chest and had half his body in blisters from it. It's a gruesome way to learn not to play with hot stuff on the stove.

Did he learn his lesson? of course he did. I know it works, just like I know waiting it out works, its just that I'm having a hard time reconciling the fact that I'm letting someone I love get hurt for the sake of getting what I want.

break the cycle of whatever behaviour you're dealing with that you don't want, and be willing to let them hurt themselves (including the loss of the relationship) if they behave like that again. Not everyone has that kind of power to get it done.

Again, true, I know I am not responsible, and yet I want an alternative where nobody gets hurt and I still get what I want, or more like what we both want (specifically referencing this because at some point my gf did ask for help when she wasn't dysregulated, she knew it was a problem for her, but then proceeded to ghost me the moment she was dysregulated).

Now if the BP behaves in a way that goes against the caretaker's values, then the caretaker thereby has the right to act to stand up for their self respect.

See it from the other's perspective:

In the dysregulated moment, they feel their needs neglected (possible, maybe exaggerated, but a kernel of truth most likely) and so they see their toxicity justified to self-protect, to stand up for themselves.

We try to learn not to do that so as to not escalate, and they are taught the same skill when learning to self regulate. When things break down, we are asked to take a time out, maybe ping back with a neutral message or even some mild positivity if we're trying to restore the relationship.

Again, its a last ditch effort and its effective. I'm looking one step before that.

I attempted to validate and walk her through not doing it. Says easy, does hard.
Anyway, it didn't work, and she ran off.

May I ask what exactly did you validate? I read somewhere: "you can't validate when someone is flinging fists and insults at you", but was there anything to be done before she was dysregulated and impulsive enough that she had to go out and have a drunk one night stand?

Now I know, she probably said she would follow through when not dysregulated and then went ahead and did it anyway. But if you saw the crisis moment growing (not possible every time I know), wouldn't you have wanted a way to resolve it before it became something major like the drunk affair?

So I decided to break my pattern of rescuing and not feed her behaviour

So, you took the plunge multiple times, then decided not to, "you can drown if you want to". Could there have been a pool noodle you could have thrown in there to let her fish/float herself out of it and join the bbq? Were there other attempts to improve other than the ultimatum? Did any of them "work" however temporarily even though you ended up breaking up anyway?

a sexual liaison with a person she'll end up regretting it with
[... .]
Oh by the way-- [... .] she didn't auto-destruct that night.

But she did have yet another drunk affair to regret for life to add to the pile of miserable experiences brought about by her PD. That's gotta hurt right?

Could there have been a "I see you're feeling down, drinks on me tonight babe, lets dance our problems away you and me!"

But Snap, you'll make her an alcoholic!

Well, its a patch, its not meant to be a solution. if she feels happy with you, the man (at least says) she loves and who encourages and supports her dearly whenever she makes some self regulating progress instead of trying to get that done while having regrets about being taken advantage of sexually by random strangers yet again, I think it should make it more manageable right?

And besides, I get to have a wild drinking party with my gf, win win right?

Now, I don't know if the alcohol in my hypothetical scenario would make her rage more, but it seemed to be the "drug of choice" along with sex, so I imagine they make her feel good temporarily both of those, if not for the circumstances which she laters regrets.

Of course I'm being less than rigorous here, thoughts?

[once removed]

Our actions do have an effect on their emotional state, just as theirs have an effect on our own mind.

if im reading you right here, it sounds like youre saying that losing our cool doesnt help anything, and can often make a bad situation worse.

Tough love eh? does the end justify the means?

"tough love" (if we are defining it as trying to teach someone a lesson) is often a counter productive approach with our loved ones. why? because they generally lack relationship skills and coping skills to "help themselves". someone who goes homeless from a gambling or drug addiction usually isnt in a place to self-actualize (and with BPD there isnt that self confidence and strong belief in oneself... people with BPD are notorious for self sabotaging when they are making progress). spend some time in impoverished areas, the evidence is all around us.

i think that that is very different than seeing a person as weak and incapable and in need of rescuing from us, to guide them to see the light and become "better people", and all of the feelings of superiority that come with it. that approach fails to acknowledge the humanity and independence of our loved ones.

Again, true, I know I am not responsible, and yet I want an alternative where nobody gets hurt and I still get what I want

realistic expectations are very important, on this board, and in life.

But if you saw the crisis moment growing (not possible every time I know), wouldn't you have wanted a way to resolve it before it became something major like the drunk affair?

good relationships need good maintenance. i think youre touching on what a member here referred to as "fire prevention". living life just trying to put out every fire is exhausting, and not really feasible. looking around your home for unsafe flammable materials and fire hazards, having smoke alarms and making sure they have good battery life is far more practical and proactive. its best to think of our relationships in terms of long term fire prevention. however, there will be some fires.

my gf did ask for help when she wasn't dysregulated, she knew it was a problem for her, but then proceeded to ghost me the moment she was dysregulated).
... .
before she was dysregulated and impulsive enough that she had to go out and have a drunk one night stand?

what is your definition of dysregulation?

[itsmeSnap]

if im reading you right here, it sounds like youre saying that losing our cool doesnt help anything, and can often make a bad situation worse.

You're absolutely correct in how that can be applied, though its not what I meant.

Yes, losing our cool makes the situation tense, adversarial and unstable. When we keep our cool we project those feelings back, there's a higher chance the other person won't feel threatened or even "justified" to act explosively towards us.

What I'm getting at here is, we have an influence over others with our actions and attitudes, though they decide on their own what they do with it. Coercing or convincing someone into change is not what I mean with this, more about influencing the situation, the feelings, so the other person is more comfortable with accepting choices/options you present.

because they generally lack relationship skills and coping skills to "help themselves".
[... .]
I think that that is very different than seeing a person as weak and incapable and in need of rescuing from us

YES! the thing is, they're more than capable of helping themselves, they survive, they manage, they do just fine on their own. We want what's best for ourselves and those we love so we try to help them achieve it, not out of pity, but out of the love and connection we feel from achieving together something that improves the lives of everyone involved.

Hopefully that makes my motives on all of this clearer 

realistic expectations are very important, on this board, and in life.

Is "not getting anyone hurt in the process" not a realistic expectation?

good relationships need good maintenance.
[... .]its best to think of our relationships in terms of long term fire prevention. however, there will be some fires.

Yes, I'm not advocating just putting out fires, but I feel like I don't have an extinguisher or sprinkler at home and I'm told to "just let the fire put itself out" when it does happen.

I want that tool available, or I feel like going to the hardware store and told "welp, just make everything out of concrete, that don't burn right?", "as in make sure it doesn't get to you, its not personal, its not about you, let it happen"

Yeah, but that concrete thing feels cold and brutally oppressive to me. I want to feel comfortable and not have to live on a safe and sturdy prison cell 

Also, no use setting up the fire alarm when the fire has been two days burning under the place already right? First things are first.

what is your definition of dysregulation?

In her case (so as to not delve into things I don't know for sure) she felt overwhelmed by emotion, her insecurities flaring up to the point of jumping to negative conclusions about us and about herself, wanting desperately to relieve the stress (before we broke up this last, she said she wanted to go out drinking, hadn't done that pretty much since I met her, she's gone out to have sex when another ex of hers rejected her), one form of which was to just leave and not come back for months. She jumped into other relationships, that relieved her stress, but then crisis again, and off to the next person, or back around to me.

Again, in that moment when she said she wanted to go out drinking and probably pick a fight when I was unavailable she gave me a chance. in a way, she told me she was at her breaking point. I didn't know how to handle it.

So, before the breaking point there were some things I could have done. One of which was to make her feel safe even when I was not around, could we have agreed to something she'd look forward to, like going out when I got back, that made her feel cared for and not precipitate her insecurities?

One thing I'll share that did work for us and why I'm mentioning "something to look forward to" is that we had a little bit of a gift exchange going on. We had a special date for us, and we agreed to give each other a special surprise. We both were excited about the gift, tease each other about it, share stories. When a bad day came around, I could steer the conversation back to the gift, she was looking forward to that and got excited again, the haze cleared and we could talk about the positives and have a better outlook on the relationship again.

Now, you would think a gift is a terrible glue for a relationship, that I should have a more stable foundation for a relationship and you'd be right. But she doubted the foundations because she doubted herself. The gift took the focus away from her own perception of her "inadequacies" and into something tangible, something she felt proud of doing for me and have it reciprocated, it lifted the "baseline mood" to a very good positive note.

Maybe this was enabling her, not letting her "deal with her own distress", but she didn't need drugs or alcohol or sex with strangers when she was feeling down, and she had resorted to those in her past. I will acknowledge that I didn't have plan for her to follow, but we did talk a lot about her "BPD tendencies" and made her realize them for what they were. I didn't know too much then and I thought we've been making so much progress, she hadn't raged, she wanted intimacy (she would not even allow touch other than sex at first), she said she loved me for the first time after two years of saying she'd never feel "attached to anyone".

Welp, that turned into storytime   I don't want this to focus on me though, its about the idea.

Our actions do have an effect on their emotional state, just as theirs have an effect on our own mind

What I want to communicate here is that we have options to make things better, its not just about "not making things worse". I want to explore those options and see if we can come up with what's the common theme in the methods used by a pwBPD that brings relief, even if temporary, so that we can use it to help them on their journey through long term recovery, particularly in terms on them not escalating to reckless or self sabotaging behavior.

It's not about "making them do things our way", its about giving them (ourselves?) a better "steam valve", one that we can hopefully "operate safely" to prevent a boiler explosion (dysregulation->crisis)

Hope that makes sense?