uBPDstbxw lost job mid-divorce

[prof]

I figured it was time to start a new thread, since my last thread (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=330254.0) had veered off-topic from the original subject of guardian ad litems.  (Guardians ad litem? )

As I mentioned in the previous thread, uBPDstbxw had an extended stomach flu over Christmas which prevented her from having S6 over his holiday break.  I learned this afternoon that she also lost her job because of this and is now filing for disability.

I'm not really sure how to process this information.  I know it's not my fault -- I've been out of the FOG long enough to know that.  But I still feel bad for her.  And it definitely complicates matters.  When she had a steady job, she could afford the gas to meet halfway to exchange S6.  Now she's asking me to drive all the way down there (7 hours each way!).

Plus we're still married.  When it comes to for the divorce to be finalized, will the judge look any differently at the situation now that she's not working?  I sent my L a note but am waiting to hear back.

Any thoughts?

[worriedStepmom]

You feel sorry for her because you are a good person and she is genuinely going through a tough time. 

Empathy is good.  Rescuing is bad.  I would not agree to drive the entire 7 hours there and back.  This (especially the distance) is her problem.  She is a big girl, and she can figure it out.

If she manages to meet you halfway to retrieve your son and then refuses to return him unless you drive all the way to her, then she is going to have to drive all the way to you the next time it is her turn to see him.  (If she didn't already have a history of trying to get you to do all the driving, I might be in a more charitable mood.)

As for the divorce, she has the ability to work (because she was doing it successfully) but is choosing not to work, yes?  My non-lawyerly opinion is that this shouldn't impact you.  Do you think she will actually be able to get disability?

[ForeverDad]

uBPDstbxw had an extended stomach flu over Christmas which prevented her from having S6 over his holiday break.  I learned this afternoon that she also lost her job because of this and is now filing for disability.

Why did she file for disability?  Isn't that just for ongoing issues?  Was her health impacted for more than a few days or a week or so?  I ask because she may be trying to milk the system.  Or even more concerning, she may be seeking more alimony (which is usually short term) or child support.  (Alimony is generally no more than half the length of the marriage and often less.  In my case, I had been married for 15 years when I filed but due to ex's delays the final decree was 18 years and 2 days.  Our formula was two months for every year and so I paid alimony for 3 years, much less than half.)

There's a saying around here, at least one had voiced it this way, I know when my exBPD is lying: when she opens her mouth.

Maybe she was sick and then lost her job.  Here in remote peer support we can't confirm that.  However, there's also another possibility, she was on the verge of losing her job - or lost it - and getting sick was the convenient way to shift blame.

The take away on this is that you may never know for sure which it was, sick then let go or let go then sick.  So be cautious on how bad you feel for her.  If she had a good work status then odds are her employer could have made allowance for her illness.  What I'm saying is that it's possible she's describing events in an order that lets her save face.  Remember, BPD is a disorder notable for Denial and Blame Shifting.  No one wants to look bad and that inclination is especially emphasized in a disordered pwBPD.

The marriage is unwinding.  Your concern is to focus on your self and your children.  Her life is in the process of splitting away from yours.  She's an adult.  Whether this is an unfortunate combination of events or whether it reflects on her as an employee and a consequence, that shouldn't sabotage your efforts for a good outcome for yourself and your children.

[prof]

As for the divorce, she has the ability to work (because she was doing it successfully) but is choosing not to work, yes?  My non-lawyerly opinion is that this shouldn't impact you.  Do you think she will actually be able to get disability?

I'm not sure whether she is actively seeking new employment right now or if she's thrown all her eggs in the disability basket.

I'm not confident in her ability to jump through all the hoops required when filing for disability.  She tried a couple years ago when we were together.  If I recall, she skipped two psychiatrist appointments they had scheduled to assess her for no good reason other than, "I already have a psychiatrist."

[prof]

Why did she file for disability?  Isn't that just for ongoing issues?  Was her health impacted for more than a few days or a week or so?

She does have a chronic auto-immune disease.  Prior to our separation, she wasn't able to even hold down her very part time (like 1 hour per week) music teaching position.  She filed for disability back then, but as I mentioned in the previous post, it didn't go anywhere.

Then after our separation, she was able to find full-time employment within a few weeks.  She seemed to be doing just fine, at least from my point of view, until this "stomach flu" hit.  I'm using quotes here because the last time she spoke to me about it, she said it lasted for three weeks.  And now it's four weeks!

I watched her lie to so many people during our relationship that I'm almost certain I'm not getting the whole story.  Also, when she started the job, she told me stories she had heard about her new boss's anger issues, almost like he also suffers from a PD.  With the two of them working together, I'm frankly surprised it lasted this long!

[ForeverDad]

In the final year or two of my marriage my then-spouse would lie around the house in bed or on the sofa, moaning endlessly, well, when she wasn't ranting and raging at me.  She postured as having some sort of persistent pain, inflammation or nerve ailment.  Once we separated - bam! - she morphed from waif witch to working witch.  I still hear comments now and then of her health issues but she does what she has to.  (Without me there, of course.)

[livednlearned]

Now she's asking me to drive all the way down there (7 hours each way!).

How have you responded to her?

Do you plan to drive the 14 hours?

Plus we're still married.  When it comes to for the divorce to be finalized, will the judge look any differently at the situation now that she's not working? 

I'm not following how her job status would affect the divorce? Do you mean in terms of alimony or child support?

Are you expected to appear before the judge for your case?

[kells76]

Hey prof;

Remind me if the 7 hour (edit: I mean 3.5 hour, hopefully) drive is for you to drop off or pick up your son? I'm assuming to drop off?

What do you think would happen if you emailed her something like "I will stick to the meeting point we've already agreed on. I'll have Son there at 12:00. See you there on the 15th -- prof"

And then you were there at 12:00 on the 15th (buy something at a convenience store and keep the receipt) and waited for, say, one hour. And then, assuming she didn't show up, you bought something else at the convenience store and kept the receipt (date/time stamped).

[prof]

How have you responded to her?

Do you plan to drive the 14 hours?

Yes -- this was during a phone conversation, so I responded right away.  I don't plan on driving the entire way and expect to meet at the halfway point.

I'm not following how her job status would affect the divorce? Do you mean in terms of alimony or child support?

Yes, I'm just worried that an out-of-work uBPDstbxw will get a better deal as far as possible alimony/division of credit card debt (we have no assets ) than a working one.

Are you expected to appear before the judge for your case?

I believe so, at some point.  My L has taken care of all the court stuff so far.

Remind me if the 7 hour (edit: I mean 3.5 hour, hopefully) drive is for you to drop off or pick up your son? I'm assuming to drop off?

Yes, drop off.  S6 lives with me during the school year, and we're discussing the possibility of him visiting uBPDstbxw during a break.

What do you think would happen if you emailed her something like "I will stick to the meeting point we've already agreed on. I'll have Son there at 12:00. See you there on the 15th -- prof"

And then you were there at 12:00 on the 15th (buy something at a convenience store and keep the receipt) and waited for, say, one hour. And then, assuming she didn't show up, you bought something else at the convenience store and kept the receipt (date/time stamped).

This sounds great.  She actually tried to get me to drive him all the way down over the 3-day MLK weekend last month.  I held my ground and refused.

[prof]

uBPDstbxw reiterated today that she doesn't have the money for gas to meet at our usual halfway point for next weekend's planned exchange.

I have one possible solution.  I'm going to have to pay for daycare if S6 stays with me for the week.  That's a significant jump in $$ over my usual after-school only bill, and if he goes to be with mom, then I don't have to pay a dime for the week.  So I may even save money if I send her some cash for gas.

I haven't brought this up to uBPDstbxw yet -- I'd like to get some input first.  Any comments?

[JNChell]

uBPDstbxw reiterated today that she doesn't have the money for gas to meet at our usual halfway point for next weekend's planned exchange.

I have one possible solution.  I'm going to have to pay for daycare if S6 stays with me for the week.  That's a significant jump in $$ over my usual after-school only bill, and if he goes to be with mom, then I don't have to pay a dime for the week.  So I may even save money if I send her some cash for gas.

I haven't brought this up to uBPDstbxw yet -- I'd like to get some input first.  Any comments?

I’m not very knowledgeable on this board, but this kind of seems like it could be a slippery approach for you. Do you think it could be possible that your stbxw might end up turning this into an entitlement for herself and expect it? I’m also curious if the court might view this as part of the status quo if it goes on long enough. You’re a generous person, but remember to keep yourself protected. I’ve read here several times that trying to be too fair in these cases can bite you in the end. I’m interested to see what the more seasoned members have to say. Best of luck to you and S6.

[flourdust]

Where are you in the divorce process? Do you have any kind of written temporary custody arrangement or order?

Any changes that need to be made due to new circumstances ... put them in writing.

[kells76]

I was curious so I did a little math. For the 7 hour round trip she can't need much more than $75 for gas, right? I'm assuming $3.25/gallon, 60 mph, 20mpg, etc. So... .she'd need under $40 for one way? Maximum? As you think about her, do you think she does not have $37.50?

I wonder if she is really saying "I don't think I want to spend time with Son, but I don't really want to say that I don't want to spend time with Son." Not sure one way or the other, but something to think about.

I'm with JNChell... .offering to pay might be a slippery slope. I wonder if you could put some strong fences around whatever you choose to do. I'm reminded of David's approach when making trades with his sons' mom -- he'd always specify in an email that it was a one-time-only thing and not the new normal.

How do you think it would go if you made a one-time offer by email for reimbursing her $37.50 (or whatever her gas receipt shows) in cash in person once you guys meet up (get a withdrawal receipt from bank for that exact amount)? That might be a compromise in meeting her halfway. You're not paying for all her gas -- she has to do some work to come up with under $40 -- but you're making an effort on paper. If she can't get that money together, she might really be "telling" you something.

Food for thought... .and at the end of the day, keep your son's best interests in mind.

[Panda39]

If she can't afford the gas money, how will she be supporting your son during his visit?  Will she have groceries for the two of them for a week for example?

Panda39

[livednlearned]

What are your expectations if you were to follow through with this? What would happen in the short term and in the long term?

[zachira]

I am sad that your ex with BPD is making things so difficult for you and your son. I clearly know very little about your situation, except what you have shared here. From what I know about BPD, it may be that your ex is trying to get you to feel her feelings for her. It's humane to feel sorry for a person who acts badly yet if we feel worse than he/she does, than we are taking responsibility for his/her feelings in a way that is unproductive for both parties. Does this make any sense or am I way off the mark?

[prof]

I’m not very knowledgeable on this board, but this kind of seems like it could be a slippery approach for you. Do you think it could be possible that your stbxw might end up turning this into an entitlement for herself and expect it? I’m also curious if the court might view this as part of the status quo if it goes on long enough. You’re a generous person, but remember to keep yourself protected. I’ve read here several times that trying to be too fair in these cases can bite you in the end.

Oh, I'm absolutely afraid of this.  Our relationship was built on a slippery financial slope .  Early on, I refused to lend her any money, but eventually I caved and started paying for her weed and cigarettes as a loan.  She "repaid" the loan by suggesting we move in together and paying my half of the rent with her financial aid money.  (This is back when we were in grad school.)

Where are you in the divorce process? Do you have any kind of written temporary custody arrangement or order?

Any changes that need to be made due to new circumstances ... put them in writing.

We're somewhere in the middle.  There was a hearing with just the attorneys back in December.  The judge gave us a few months to work things out before ordering mediation, but uBPDstbxw's L hasn't filed anything.

There is a temporary custody order in place.  Under the terms of the order, we are supposed to split the transportation costs for visitation.  You bring up an excellent point -- I'll consult with my L.

I was curious so I did a little math. For the 7 hour round trip she can't need much more than $75 for gas, right? I'm assuming $3.25/gallon, 60 mph, 20mpg, etc. So... .she'd need under $40 for one way? Maximum? As you think about her, do you think she does not have $37.50?

Your calculations line up with mine.  She definitely has a way of making money disappear, so I think it's very possible that she's being honest with me.  

I wonder if she is really saying "I don't think I want to spend time with Son, but I don't really want to say that I don't want to spend time with Son." Not sure one way or the other, but something to think about.

I'd be really surprised if this were the case.  She does seem to miss him a lot.

If she can't afford the gas money, how will she be supporting your son during his visit?  Will she have groceries for the two of them for a week for example?

That is an excellent question!

What are your expectations if you were to follow through with this? What would happen in the short term and in the long term?

Short term -- we all come out ahead.  S6 gets to see his mom and vice versa.  I maybe save a little money vs. daycare, plus I get a little break.  (I love S6 with all of my heart and cherish our time together, but single parenthood is very exhausting!)

Long term -- I'm afraid of the slippery slope mentioned earlier.  S6 has Spring Break in April.  What happens then?  What about Summer Break?  Does this increase the likelihood of uBPDstbxw getting a better deal financially in the final divorce settlement?

I am sad that your ex with BPD is making things so difficult for you and your son. I clearly know very little about your situation, except what you have shared here. From what I know about BPD, it may be that your ex is trying to get you to feel her feelings for her. It's humane to feel sorry for a person who acts badly yet if we feel worse than he/she does, than we are taking responsibility for his/her feelings in a way that is unproductive for both parties. Does this make any sense or am I way off the mark?

Yes, it absolutely makes sense.  She's been doing this our entire relationship!


I ended up agreeing to loan her some gas money after consulting with my L.  Crazy thing is that she claims that her checking account is several hundred dollars overdrawn, so my usual method of sending her money through our bank's website won't work.  So I'll likely end up just paying a little off of one of her credit cards so she can use that.

[worriedStepmom]

My sister's (non-pd)ex moved several hours away from her and her son.  Like your stbx, he has a way of making money disappear.  My sister used to give him gas money or agree to do the entire drive.  Then she ended up buying him groceries because he literally didn't have anything to feed their son.  It was little by little by little, until she realized she was financing the entire weekend every time she brought their son - to the point that once he asked for money to pay his electric bill because it was going to be cut off while son was there.  (Plus he asked her to pay for his car to be inspected, new tires, etc.)

She finally got tired of it and told him she wasn't doing this anymore.  If he wanted to see his son, he should be able to find a way to do that - ask for a ride, stay at someone else's house, borrow money from someone else.  It was his responsibility to determine how to live up to his responsibilities.  There were several visits that didn't take place because he couldn't get his stuff together.  Eventually he figured out how to live without my sister constantly bailing him out.

Your stbx is eventually going to have to figure out how to live without you bailing her out.  She's going to have to deal with the consequences of her own choices.

[livednlearned]

Your stbx is eventually going to have to figure out how to live without you bailing her out.  She's going to have to deal with the consequences of her own choices.

Related to this is that you have to be able to tolerate the feelings that come up when you set a limit that you believe in.

I always found the advice about boundaries to be straightforward and easy to understand. It was trying to manage how I felt about setting those boundaries, especially the guilt and self-doubt that I was somehow being unreasonable.

Some of your predicament is about the legal aspects which is unavoidable. What you probably want to get clear about is how you'll manage these constant grey areas that come up once the order is in place, and whether you'll struggle with your heartstrings or not.

[zachira]

"Related to this is that you have to be able to tolerate the feelings that come up when you set a limit that you believe in."  This has indeed been my experience in setting boundaries that work and last. 

[ForeverDad]

Hard to imagine paying down her credit card by a small amount will provide her cash to get gas.  She'd be charging gas to her card anyway, right?  What she's saying is that she's already enough in debt to drive that she doesn't want to add to it.  When all is said and done, afterward she'll still have her debts.

Was this phrased as a one-off accommodation?  Perhaps something like this, "I will help this time but in the future only with the visits that occur during your half of the holidays."  (If you don't know how your area splits holidays, your lawyer, the court clerk  or the court's website probably have a typical schedule.  Fairly standard is parents alternate the applicable holidays then the next year the parents reverse places and get the ones they missed the prior year.)

Frankly, if she is underwater at her bank and living off credit cards, any support you Gift her outside of a court order will probably be considered Gifts.

When my ex and I separated, our first court order as a result of protection claims set a parenting schedule but didn't include child support.  Once that lapsed and she refused, as "parent in possession", to allow me contact with my son, I was forced to file for divorce.  At that second temp order hearing the parenting schedule was reinstated and child support was ordered retroactive three months to when I filed for divorce even though she never allowed contact during that time.  (No consequences for her, nor make-up time for me.)

This time before the court order may be a period for you to establish better grounds for your parenting going forward.  If she doesn't get all her time due to not complying with the agreement, then that means you're doing the majority of parenting.  It would be easier for you to seek Primary Parent status.  (Conversely, she may claim she needs child support but that would require she have at least 50% and perhaps majority time to qualify for child support.)

Due to your distance apart, odds are equal time — alternating weeks — won't work for long.  One parent or the other is likely to become the Primary Parent, especially once your child reaches school age.  Who do you feel is best qualified to parent and provide a stable home?

Edit:  Sorry, I missed that ex took S6 out of school.  If you reside a large distance apart then son should attend school in one area or the other.  I would resist letting a pwBPD attempt home schooling.

While both child support and parenting schedules are important to handle well, I think long term you need the upper hand in parenting schedules.  That will have the most impact.  If you get son during school then you'll have majority time and then risk of child support would probably be negligible.  Yes, if she 's currently out of work that may prompt a judge to set spousal support for a while.  You can challenge or offset that with "imputed" income she is capable to earn.  But odds are that at most any spousal support would max out at a year or two "to assist her in the transition from the marriage".

[prof]

I got an interesting phone call this evening.  uBPDstbxw has been in jail for 3 days...

Apparently she got arrested back in December for battery and failed to show up for her court date.

The plot thickens!

[ForeverDad]

So your child is with you, right?

Does your county have a web site that lists the status of pending cases?  Perhaps you can monitor how things progress.  Don't get involved in her case.  She's an adult, your relationship is over, her consequences are hers to experience, your sole interest is in the aspects that impact your children, your custody and your parenting.

[GaGrl]

Wow.

Sometimes that's the only first reaction.

So whatever is going on in her current life -- completely separate and apart from the chaos in your marriage to her -- still results in violence and arrests and legal issues.

Validation.

Sadness that she continues on this path.

[prof]

So your child is with you, right?

Yes, he came back a week ago when his break from school was over.

Does your county have a web site that lists the status of pending cases?  Perhaps you can monitor how things progress.  Don't get involved in her case.  She's an adult, your relationship is over, her consequences are hers to experience, your sole interest is in the aspects that impact your children, your custody and your parenting.

I found her mugshots last night (which is how I knew the charge was battery), but after reading your post I did some more searching and found a very detailed court record website.  I certainly don't intend to get involved!

[Harri]

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