Cheating ultimatum

[secretagent]

I'm recently married to my pwBPD, and overall things are going about as well as could be expected. I've learned how to minimize triggering her, got good at applying JADE and SET when she is triggered, not taking her angry outbursts personally, and helping her manage her emotional roller-coasters.

An unintended side effect has been a decrease in intimacy in our relationship, including sex, as my role shifted to more of a caretaker than a husband. My wife has been bringing up this lack of intimacy more and more often and urgently when triggered (such as by an unrelated minor misunderstanding about recycling), and now sounds like "I will not put up with this -- unless you figure out your problems and restore intimacy to our relationship, I will cheat on you and will feel fully justified in doing so. You have two months. Don't say I didn't warn you."

I think that more honest communication would help restore intimacy, but don't know how to approach it. For example, tonight I asked her if she wanted to know what's on my mind, and she said "I'll hear you out, but don't make it about me, focus on your problems, and only use "I" statements." I try to respect these restrictions, but they make the conversation feel more like navigating a minefield than an honest heart-to-heart.

Any suggestions?

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[babyducks]

hi secretagent,

I went through a very similar thing.    the extremely high conflict in my relationship had eroded my ability to be trusting and vulnerable, especially in the more intimate parts of our life together.    I heard a lot of what you are describing.

my first suggestion is keep whatever you say very short.    extremely short.    no more than like 5 minutes.   I used to call them 'hit and run' conversations because I said my 3 or 4 lines and left the conversation.    staying for longer than 10 minutes would almost guarantee that the discussion would flip into a manipulation session with threats, demands and more conflict.

I did use a lot of "I" statements and I did follow a formula, it's a communication model.

When ______________   happens, I feel _______________, so I will ______________.

For me it looked like this:   When there is a lot of shouting or tension happening between us I feel discouraged and so I do withdraw a bit.     For me to be intimate there has to be less conflict between us.

To which the reply was something like 'if you only would do exactly what I tell you to do there wouldn't be any conflict'.     not exactly those words but close.   that's what she meant.

to which I replied 'that's not how a partnership between two equals works to me. let's try for more balance'.

that caused a reaction but sometimes you have to break a few eggshells.    I left the conversation after that.   I had said what I needed too.   I wasn't going to linger for the debate.

just my two cents
'ducks

[Q-DawgVFR]

Hi there.  I feel the need to jump in here and ask more specifically about the intimacy issues you are having as a couple:

Is the intimacy issue around sex that it isn't happening / not happening often?  Is it a quality of connection issue?

Are there other intimacy issues that she is talking about?  Physical affection? Emotional connection / conversations and sharing?

Just curious what the problem is.  I realize not everyone is comfortable talking about sexual issues, and I am not assuming anything or accusing.

I will say that sexual intimacy is a very important part in relationships and that if it is a persistent issue for very long, many people (not just your wife) can get frustrated and do things out of frustration (cheat) and that reason is a common one for why some partners cheat (ongoing poor quality/ infrequent / non-existent sexual interactions).

So while I feel ultimatums suck to be faced with in a relationship, sexual intimacy (if that's the heart of the issue: it sounds like frequency of contact is part of her issue) is something important to a lot of people and should be taken pretty seriously.  Whatever she is having the problem with, it sounds serious enough to her that you should try to talk with her more about it.  Ask questions about it to get to the root of the matter.  If her answers are too generalized, maybe ask more "why" questions to dig deeper?

Speaking from personal experience, I find that having added pressure to perform sexually has exactly the opposite effect with me.  So maybe there's a better way for her to address it with you than "do it or else".  I have also faced infrequent sex drive of my wife in several years past, so I understand her side of the frequency issue.

What can be done to improve the sexual relationship between you two?  There are many ways (much like setting yourself up for a good night's sleep) that you can try to promote a better sexual connection between the two of you.  It sounds like she thinks the problem is yours to solve, but it really is a shared responsibility.  If you ask her for help in a way that doesn't come across accusatory, maybe there are things that you need (to feel wanted/secure/valued/emotionally vulnerable) which she can help nurture with her behavior.

[Ozzie101]

Hi secret agent!

I, too, experienced something very much like this with my uBPDh. Physical intimacy and contact are very important to him but during a recent period of frequent disregulations, my sex drive plummeted. I just wasn't interested and he wasn't initiating. He also threw the "I'll cheat" warning at me.

Because I did want to save the marriage, I took the advice of a few people here. I started putting in more effort on the general physical touch. I put my arm through his when we sat on the couch. I held his hand walking across a parking lot. I patted his back as I passed. It was something I sometimes had to force myself to do, but it got easier and I found feelings coming back.

We also had a short talk about sex where we both agreed we needed to make it more of a priority. We did it at a calm time and there were no accusations. Just an agreement that, yes, we needed to pay more attention to that side of our marriage and that maybe setting some goals (not sexy, but saying "Every other day" or "Every two days" or something like that helped get things on track).

We're in a much better place now with all of it.

Do you think your wife might be open and receptive if you tried to increase other physical touch and to a calm discussion about sexual frequency? I know you said she puts a lot of rules on your discussions so you'd have to be careful. Difficult. But there may be a way to have the talk and focus on yourself.

[secretagent]

Thanks for the feedback and advice, I really appreciate it! Here' some more info to clarify my situation:

There is still lots of physical contact / kissing / hugging / cuddling. The problem is emotional and sexual intimacy. In my wife's words, she's been telling me lately that "you're killing the intimacy in our relationship" because:

-You lie / hide things from me
-You put up barriers between us
-You treat me like a problem to figure out, because you like solving problems
-You don't treat me like a partner or an equal
-You used to have a personality, now you're just an automaton / emotionally withdrawn

The above is a least partly true, but when I probe deeper, the root cause appears to be a major disparity between us: I know she has BPD, and she doesn't (or at least won't admit it, though she's been diagnosed with it twice). When I even allude to anything BPD-related, it usually triggers anger and impenetrable defenses. Her typical response is some combination of:

-You're making it about me again
-You have a lot of problems too, focus on them
-You've been gaslighting me for years, you're emotionally abusive
-I will divorce / sue you if you don't stop being abusive
-You have to be impulsive to have BPD, and I'm not impulsive
-BPD is a catch-all, not well-understood, doctors often give this diagnosis when they can't figure out the real issue
-Members of my family think it's a junk diagnosis
-I've had other diagnoses
-I know a lot more about this than you do, I've dealt with it all my life
-You're being condescending/patronizing
-The issue is not with me, but with you/other people/society
-My logic is sound, don't even try to argue, you'll dig yourself a hole again

So, I feel trapped: my wife wants me to be open with her, yet certain topics are "taboo".

[Q-DawgVFR]

-You treat me like a problem to figure out, because you like solving problems
-You don't treat me like a partner or an equal
-You used to have a personality, now you're just an automaton / emotionally withdrawn

The above resonated with me... .    I remember having similar conversation with my wife years ago, especially the part about being an equal.

It is EXTREMELY hard to behave like they are a partner or equal when they do not act like one!  When you are caretaking and they are acting out or not living up to their part in the relationship, it really gets difficult and I feel for where you are perhaps at, in this point. The fact is, when you are caretaking, you ARE problem solving her.  And her behavior isn't up to you to change.  Only she can do that.  And that is difficult if she doesn't know / recognize / admit her BPD.

But do you have to talk about it in a way that puts a label to it?

It might not be as effective as her admitting / accepting she has BPD, but perhaps you can work on communication and addressing the behaviors.  Your behavior as well as hers.  You have control over your own behavior, and very little influence on hers... .

I knew also that I had given up some major things, parts of myself, around that point in our marriage (week long conference away from her woke me up to what I used to feel like when I was alone, and it was my first real wake up call)

Anyway it was shortly after this that we tried counselling for the first times.

In hindsight, it was FAR MORE EFFECTIVE working on ourselves individually, which we did over a year later.  We haven't been back to couples counselling in a long time, and the individual work has made the far bigger difference for us.  But our relationship is teetering on a stay or go decision right now (long story, see my posts if it interests you).

Anyway, you might not be able to convince her to get the help.  But there is ALWAYS benefit to doing work on yourself!  Start there!  And keep reading and educating yourself, talking with her, as much as you can!  Try to do it when she is calm and collected, and end the conversation (to resume later) if it gets too heated.

It's a starting point.

[once removed]

-You put up barriers between us
-You treat me like a problem to figure out, because you like solving problems
-You don't treat me like a partner or an equal
-You used to have a personality, now you're just an automaton / emotionally withdrawn
-You're being condescending/patronizing

this is not an uncommon problem when members are learning the tools, and there are often two parts to it.

we learn things like the communication tools, and start to use them as a script to read when we face any obstacle. two major components that make the tools work are authenticity and listening with empathy (https://bpdfamily.com/content/listen-with-empathy). if you can give some examples, it will really help, but its very easy to use the communication tools in a way that is condescending, or makes us sound like an automaton. to be authentic, it really has to be personalized, and within the context of your relationship. you need to sound like you. and it needs to be sincere, not a method of "make this go away".

the other is that we use the tools for putting out each fire, rather than investing in fire prevention, and really building a healthy environment for the relationship to thrive in. in this way, we can sort of compartmentalize our partners and the relationship ie "if i like how my partner is behaving they will get the best of me, and if i dont, i will withdraw". our partners arent dumb, and they can read this.

The above is a least partly true, but when I probe deeper, the root cause appears to be a major disparity between us: I know she has BPD,

why would this lead to you lying or hiding things, or kill the emotional or sexual intimacy in your relationship?