Ever heard of the Michelangelo phenomenon?

[itsmeSnap]

Hi everyone!

Just a bit of context on me:

Broke up with my gf at the end of october last year, we've been on and off for 2yrs+ and through quite a few "recycles" already. Even though its been a while and I'm ok with her not coming back around this time, I stuck around to learn because I found out some things about myself that I need to work on.

Anyway, since my relationship is non-existent at the moment, I'd like to hear your thoughts on something.

In my usual "learn about BPD" adventures I recently came across this article about "idealization" (its a bit dated, 2011)

https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/the-young-and-the-restless/201112/the-process-idealization

As you may have already heard, idealization/devaluation or splitting is a core characteristic of people with BPD. They can see you as all good one moment and all bad the next. The change comes suddenly and seemingly out of nowhere.

(quotes are from the article)

We're all prone to idealization
[... .]
idealization occurs when we generate positive illusions by maximizing virtues and minimizing flaws. These illusions grow from our tendency to overlay our partners’ actual traits with the (misguided) belief that his or her faults are minimal.

Remember this article is not about BPD specifically, but the process of idealization. Ok, so we know that this happens, but then I kept reading. In particular, this little gem stood out to me:

those of us who “appropriately” idealize our partners have all the facts; we just choose to interpret them in a more positive light. [... .] a self-fulfilling prophecy may arise when we treat our partners as wonderful and talented people, only to elicit related behavior from them and, in so doing, enhance their self-esteem. By believing that our partners are the best versions of themselves, we may help them become those ideal selves—an effect known as the Michelangelo phenomenon.

It's often said we can only focus on ourselves, and that's true, we can't make them do anything. But this got me thinking: If nobody could "change" anyone, how do people with BPD manage to leave such turmoil in their wake? people have said they become "a shadow of their former self" after such relationships. if they can have such a profound effect on their partner, could we as partners can also have an effect on them?

Of course, we don't want to do the same damage that they can do, we want to "make the relationship better", that's what this board is about, so I kept looking and found this other article (also dated, 2010, but still!)

The idea is that within each of you, a better version of yourself awaits release. The true, ideal, or authentic self depends on help from the outside just as the statues of David and Moses did. The people who can help release your better self are those who are close to you and who care about you. They want to help you to be the best you can be on your own terms, not theirs.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/one-among-many/201001/michelangelo-meets-carl-rogers

Apparently we can!
Consider the authors "your" to mean "your partner" in this next bit:

the supportive other affirms your version of your better self perceptually (recognition) and then behaviorally (facilitation). In turn, this affirmation enables you to grow by moving toward your individual psychological goals.

Obviously this is not a magic bullet for people in escalating abusive situations, but for the "milder" crowd, the moody annoy-o-trons out there that can't handle a vanilla ice cream cone because they wanted chocolate  or those that can function as a couple/parents but where life at home is less than ideal, maybe there's a glimmer of hope out there.

So, has anyone heard of this before? Do you know what your partner's version of "their better self" means? what do you think helping them "on their terms" means? is this just a fancy form of "enabling"?

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[Q-DawgVFR]

Interesting post you made, and at a very relevant time for me.

I think this is also relevant to any of the people interested in "is there hope?" and "success stories" flavor of topic.  I personally think that answer really depends on the individuals involved, their circumstances, how committed they are to change, and their skills / aptitude for learning and adapting to change.

I am no expert by any means, but I do believe that you are right about the "milder" crowd, in particular, having hope.  Things keep slowly improving overall in our understanding of this condition, so there's always some hope for everyone.  I think it's important to keep expectations realistic though.  Things may never be "normal", and I think it's important for a lot of us to accept the BPD person is the way they are.  We choose a relationship path forward that best suits our needs.   

Over the course of my relationship, I have tried to be someone who enabled my wife to be the best person she could be, and saw the potential in her.  This was my "idealization" of her.  Unfortunately, that idealization came with the unhealthy view that I could do more to help her, fix her, influence her.  Caretaker pattern on a lower level, as she has been pretty high functioning (though medicated) through almost all of our 16+ years of marriage.

I do think that while the person with BPD charts their own course, we as other people in the BPD person's life DO have influence and SOME ability to shape and direct the other person.  Just as their behaviors can have an effect on us, we can have an effect on them.  I think the thinking trap is how much influence we have, and in thinking we can relate to them on a logical level, when much of the time, we cannot.  Sometimes we can.  But those are small windows of opportunity.

Currently my wife and I are on a (possibly) temporary separation of a month, and halfway through it.  She is higher functioning in many respects, but while she has been undergoing significant personal growth (emotional awareness and processing, communication skills improved, etc), her behavior has been significantly more disregulated over the past 6 months, as she has been dealing with her "midlife / intentity" crisis... .  a strong desire to figure herself out, which has made her question everything about herself, our relationship, etc.  She initially made a lot of mistakes with this and impulsively went searching externally though, leading us to where we are now (pretty much rock bottom in our relationship, and I am certain I do not want to continue unless there are some changes for both of us).

Where this ties back to your post is that she keeps talking about wanting to be "her true self", figure out who she is, be "her best self".  She has been working quite a bit with therapist.  Frequently use of hypnosis and DBT to draw out some of her past trauma and deal with facing fears, shame, talking to her inner child/adolescent self.  Seems to be getting somewhere lately as she has actually caught onto her more recent and extreme external validation behavior patterns and is now trying to change the thinking / patterns.  I do have hope and believe that she can improve herself.  How much, or whether it will be with me, I do not know.

As part of this difficult transition period, I came to realize and accept our relationship as it really exists, and not what I want it to be.  In the past few days, she has expressed a strong desire to return home when this separation period is over, and negotiate a "new beginning" for us both together. 

I have never heard of the term "Michelangelo phenomenon" before, but the term was intriguing enough I had to read the post to find out!

"Helping them on their terms" to me means being supportive to them on their journey.  Providing healthy validation, leading by example, modelling healthy behavior / boundaries.  Encouraging them and recognition of successes and growth.  Being controlling, manipulative, dishonest, judgemental, emotionally volatile or acting out in angry or negative ways ourselves I think is counterproductive.

In my not-always-so-humble opinion, "enabling" is when we provide the means of them making poor choices.  Having soft boundaries for ourselves and going along with things we do not agree with, not voicing our concerns / opposition when appropriate, continuing to fund or fuel addictions, as examples.

In my  partner's eyes, her better self is not yet fully defined, but from previous conversations with her, I believe it to include:
- having self acceptance / love for herself
- not seeking excessive external validation (attention and approval seeking needy behavior).  Less social media use
- break cycles of codependency
- find meaning in her life (she no longer has a job due to chronic illness) so finding some alternate purpose is important with her large amount of free time
- someone who lifts up others around her, makes the world a brighter place by leaving a positive influence in her wake. (not being a drain on others)
- giving back and reciprocating love (by accepting / loving herself first)

Anyway, I really enjoy the opportunity to share my experience and views on this topic.  Like I said, I do not know if my situation will work out favorably, but I think realistically there's potential there.

[itsmeSnap]

Hey Qdawg

I think the thinking trap is how much influence we have

Yeah, the issue I see is not so much that we don't have influence (we do, otherwise how is it that we can "trigger them" so hard over seemingly simple stuff?), but the goals don't align.

As in, they see the problem coming from outside (their skewed worldview), and we try to convince them otherwise, that the problem is in themselves (it kinda is, but still hurts to be told). That's why I was curious about if we really know what our partners really want: Do they want to be "fixed" by us or do they want to feel "understood"?

Lets think for a moment, imagine indulging our partner's point of view without agreeing to it (validation exercise ), "well, I know i'd feel pretty terrible if everyone was out to get me, we'll take them on together!".

I got in a similar situation with my gf, she felt like she would lose me and got caught up in the "what if's", and I told her "well, an asteroid could crash the earth and bring with it space dinosaurs that would terrorize the planet and society would collapse and I may never have a way to reach you again, but right now I'm here, and I want to be with you".

It calmed her down like I have never seen before, she felt like we were on the same page, like we were a team. Our goals aligned, and that comforted her. I guess that's what its meant with "helping them be who they want to be", it doesn't have to be necessarily about "them" as an individual, but also about "us" as a relationship.

Anyway, we eventually broke up (no fight or anything, she just stopped contact after a few days of anxiety over her feeling "I did not have time for her", which is in part true, but not as catastrophic as it sounds from that, just "less than usual"), so again, no magic bullet.

Where this ties back to your post is that she keeps talking about wanting to be "her true self", figure out who she is, be "her best self"

Yes, its a challenge to try to work together for a common goal when they have no real sense of direction. This lack of internal self image is characteristic of BPD. Thing is, like you mention, they seek it externally.

We are "external" to them, could we provide for them that image that they are so desperately seeking? Could we make it a good one?

Now, on some aspects they are quite steadfast and we have to recognize it, but where the self is shaky, maybe we can support there, even "carve it" ourselves. I'm no expert either, recognizing the "steadfast" from the "shaky" self can be tricky, but it's also relatively easy to test: try something, if you notice resistance, then that part is not so shaky after all.

So, how do we recognize the areas we can work with, and the areas we should "leave them be and accept them as they are"?

[isilme]

They don't want to be fixed.  That would require a knowledge that something is wrong with them that is in their power to fix.

BPD by its very nature makes this a tough realization.  My H gets down on himself, and can't face the toxic shame of realizing he actually is not perfect, and it feeds his spiral into hating the world as "everyone makes" him feel bad. 

They can improve, in the mild cases - I think my H's case is on the milder side.  His deep end moments have gotten more alarming lately, though.

As far as improving things, I think to a point of a ladder we are climbing.  The pwBPD is tied to our waists in a bungee cord.  As we work on better communication, trying to be as mindful as we can, and learning when it's helping and when it's enabling, and what can be left to fail and what you just need to take care of regardless, we climb that ladder.  They are bousing on the bungee, sometimes bouncing up to our level, sometimes snapping back a few steps lower than they'd normally be, but the overall trend is bouncing a bit higher than before, simply through virtue of us climbing.

[Purplex]

what do you think helping them "on their terms" means? is this just a fancy form of "enabling"?

I think helping on their terms means putting ourselves in their shoes and trying to understand the issue from their perspective. Meeting them where they are right now and offering guidance and support without taking control.

I'd like to offer some examples from my relationship. My bf is low functioning and sometimes struggles with basic choires.
E.g. he says that he feels bad about not beeing able to do the dishes for a week because he was depressed. If I offered to do the dishes for him, I would enable his behavior because he would get around dealing with a task he should be able to manage himself. Instead I validate his feelings by saying that I can understand why he was overstraind with it and that there is no shame in leaving the dishes for some time. It is his apartment and nobody cares if the dishes are done or not. But if he would feel better if they were done and wanted to do them now or later I would gladly help him by drying them off. Afterwards I usually reaffirm him, e.g. by mentioning how nice the kitchen looks now and that he has every reason to be proud of himself.
By supporting him and putting his focus off the things he didn't manage towards the things he can do, he gets closer to seeing himself as his better self: a person who can keep up with his choires.

Another example: He complains that he needs to see several doctors, but is afraid of treatment and avoids making appointments. By either making appointments for him or reassuring him that it isn't necessary to see doctors I would enable him. Instead I validate his fears, and bring up the possible risks of declining treatment without judging him. We brainstorm about a compromise, e.g. maybe visit one doctor every other month and I encourage him to take the first steps like deciding which treatment is most urgent and looking for a specialist. If he is still reluctant I leave it there and remind him about it from time to time without pressuring him. It is his decision, not mine. But by telling me about it he expressed his desire to be somebody who takes care of his health and I act as a friendly reminder and supporter of that goal.     

So, how do we recognize the areas we can work with, and the areas we should "leave them be and accept them as they are"?

In my case, the areas I can work with are usually those he brings up with me. He knows I will offer my understanding, empathy, advice and optimism. As long as I don't have an exceptionally strong opinion or he asks me for it I usually try to put as little emphasis as possible on it. Sometimes I tell him how I would handle a certain situation, just so that he has another possible approach to think about, not because I expect him to act the same way as I would. I always try to stay as objective as I can and give him space to find his own solution.   
I try to leave and accept everything he doesn't adress himself or seems comfortable with.

[once removed]

how do people with BPD manage to leave such turmoil in their wake? people have said they become "a shadow of their former self" after such relationships. if they can have such a profound effect on their partner, could we as partners can also have an effect on them?

i think this probably speaks to us more than it does them.

regarding idealization, on Detaching you see countless stories about members who invested heavily in those words, struggled when the relationship transitioned to a flatter pace, struggled intensely with the loss of idealization after the breakup.

is this because we are all powerless in the face of someone saying lovely things to us? or does it speak to a level of need for and investment in mirroring, validation, idealization?

The people who can help release your better self are those who are close to you and who care about you. They want to help you to be the best you can be on your own terms, not theirs

people with BPD show the strongest trajectory for recovery with a support system that doesnt judge, can provide a validating environment, a person/people with strong boundaries, who can walk that line between gentle and loving, and firm and consistent.

i think the article is suggesting that a person in such an environment can thrive.

[itsmeSnap]

They don't want to be fixed.

Yes, I've heard this a bunch of times from people's (don't make this about me!, focus)

A few months ago around just before christmas my mom (not BPD though kinda impulsive) "needed" help hooking up a gas cylinder for a house she rents out. Its a simple job right, just tighten the connector nut (its a safety, hand tightened type, zero chance of anything going wrong) and good to go, but she doesn't want to do it, she doesn't feel "qualified".

Instead of doing it or telling her to "figure it out" I tell her I'm going to coach her on it. The attitude changed instantly, she was motivated to do it, wouldn't even let me touch the cylinder  just had to tell her how to align the thing and good to go, we went through the steps and she was so happy everything was good.

Thing is, we all like to feel in control, empowered and supported. Just by giving her a chance to do the thing, and be with her while she did it (she tried it before and failed on another one with a busted connector and that's why she was feeling anxious about it), she was now so confident she didn't even "need my help".

**** Sorry This got posted from a misclick, I'll finish it in the next reply

[itsmeSnap]

Yes, I've heard this a bunch of times from people's (don't make this about me!, focus on your own issues)

This bold part got cut from the last one

Anyway, my point is that even though they (we) don't want to be "fixed" they often do want a change, but a change that involves them and their ability to do the thing.

I think helping on their terms means putting ourselves in their shoes and trying to understand the issue from their perspective. Meeting them where they are right now and offering guidance and support without taking control.

Yes, like my mom's story, sometimes what they need is a little nudge and a backup they can rely on.

Sometimes I tell him how I would handle a certain situation, just so that he has another possible approach to think about, not because I expect him to act the same way as I would. I always try to stay as objective as I can and give him space to find his own solution.

You touch on something I have struggled a bit on how to communicate: having them "find their own solution" doesn't have to mean just "leave them alone". options and opportunities is where its at and where we can support and facilitate, and the decisions and actions are theirs to make on their own.

is this because we are all powerless in the face of someone saying lovely things to us? or does it speak to a level of need for and investment in mirroring, validation, idealization?

Yes, there is a need they fill, and something we've been looking for ourselves probably. People mention that we also have higher than average validation needs, that's why we find the over the top "lovely things" they say and do with us so attractive. Despite all the turmoil, many people also choose or at least say they'd be back at it given the chance.

Now, as to how a detaching person manages that, I don't know. Maybe its those cases of "bad idealization", not having all the information. In the article it mentions that "good" idealization" is just about perspective, seeing things in a brighter light instead of twisting facts and memories, and it does talk about it not in the context of BPD, but as "human nature".

Sidenote, I'm starting to see that much of the core of BPD is things we all do, just "heightened" and tinted with the lens of poor early life experiences (just watched a great video by kurzgesagt on loneliness btw, so many bells ring true for people with BPD and its not even about them, its loneliness in general. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3Xv_g3g-mA)

It's always been too easy for me to just let go and I see it's a problem for me, that's why I'm exploring ways to "improve before bolting" (my gf did that to me as well and it sucks for anyone on the receiving end )

i think the article is suggesting that a person in such an environment can thrive.

Definitely, and we as partners can be part of that environment.

There's a book on BPD clinical practice (light reads I indulge in I know  I'm not trained in any way just fyi) with a section on experiences from families and those with BPD.

Borderline Personality Disorder: Treatment and Management.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK55423/#ch4.s31

This stood out to me.

Most families/carers reported feeling excluded from the service user’s treatment.
[... .]
Collaborating with families/carers (when the service user is in agreement) and supporting them could provide a valuable resource for the person with borderline personality disorder.

This is clinical but you can change "service user" to pwBPD. Yes we need to be strong enough ourselves to support them and this is the focus of the boards, but sometimes I feel like that self focus is taken just a step too far into "leave them alone, let them deal with it on their own".

[Q-DawgVFR]

I'm really liking this discussion!

Hmmmm, "They don't want to be fixed?"  I think this might depend on the individual and what kind of stage they are at.  And they may not want someone else to do it for them, but do it themselves.  They may just be unsure what to do, scared to begin.  As an example, with where my wife is at, she is aware she has been spinning out of control lately: I believe her when she says she badly wants to fix herself and that she simply hasn't been sure how to do it.  I do believe therapy is helping guide her a lot on this, and I keep encouraging the process and listening / talking about the things she feels comfortable sharing with me.  She is willing to keep trudging ahead, even though some of the homework exercises are uncomfortable for her.  I am thankful she is willing to keep up the effort.

Purplex, thank you for sharing your approach in problem solving.  It gives me a bit more insight into how to be supportive when she (wife) is struggling, while keeping a healthy distance and not enabling.  The specific examples you used helped me connect a dot or two about "help on their terms".  Thanks!

Once Removed/itsmeSnap, I think in order for us to be successful at facilitating positive changes, we need to have "let go" and transitioned (if it was present) from a needy or "bad" idealization to a place of more accurate perspective of the relationship.  To avoid becoming lost "shadows of our former selves" by investing too heavily into the idealization.

I wish we as partners were included more (with permission) about how we can support constructively what the therapy is trying to do.  Maybe there's a good reason for keeping us (?meddling?) out of it, maybe it's a missing opportunity.  I guess it is left up to the patient (pwBPD) to decide how to include us?  I just see it as an opportunity to educate/ help both people in the relationship to do what's healthy.

[once removed]

Once Removed/itsmeSnap, I think in order for us to be successful at facilitating positive changes, we need to have "let go" and transitioned (if it was present) from a needy or "bad" idealization to a place of more accurate perspective of the relationship.  To avoid becoming lost "shadows of our former selves" by investing too heavily into the idealization.

i think this is exactly right. "emotional immaturity manifests in unrealistic expectations". a lot of us have those, about relationships, about our partners, about ourselves.

its hard to make that transition, for us, and for our partners. it can threaten the relationship.