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Author Topic: What is the best case scenario?  (Read 476 times)
lpheal
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« on: February 26, 2019, 05:12:44 PM »

I was curious about the experience of people who have gone through a divorce with a BPD spouse. I've read all kinds of stories about how bad it can get, and I've read Splitting several times.

I was wondering if it has gone reasonably well for anyone. My uBPDw has been threatening divorce daily for months now, it is common for them to initiate? If it did go well for someone was there a particular thing you did that you felt made a difference? My current mindset is to lose as little as possible as quickly as possible. I would consider it a major blessing if she initiated, and that would feel like control to her. I just doubt it will happen though.
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ForeverDad
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« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2019, 11:56:42 AM »

This is a question posed sometimes, so it is good you asked in advance.  Here's a recent question posed by the author of Stop Walking on EggshellsBook research: If you had a do-over, would you select divorce again?  While this doesn't match your question exactly, it will give you an idea of our "no regrets" of what many here have faced, Will I regret divorcing someone who is no longer a trusted friend but has become a saboteur of the marriage?

Answers can be "all over the map" because some had it horrendously horrible, a few had it basically distressful but most had it in between.

  • It depends on your spouse's actions, reactions — and overreactions.
     You have yet to learn whether she would, in desperation, make false ("unsubstantiated") allegations against you to make herself look better than you?
  • It depends on your attorney, is he or she proactive to step up for your rights and the children's rights, experienced in court, able to litigate in hearings and trials?  Or will you pick a practice out of a phone book and hope you have more than a forms filer and hand holder who expects to resolve everything with mediation or a settlement?
  • It depends on the court, does it's policies and procedures have a default preference for mothers as has been typical in past decades no matter the mental state and parenting ability of the mother?

Although who files first supposedly does not matter, you may feel better to get it started on the right footing.  If she filed first, do you think it would be free from Blaming, Blame Shifting, even emotionally compelling allegations (but lacking facts)?  Are you okay with being "on the defense" from Day One?

Eventually court figured out I was the more reasonable parent with solutions.  But it wasn't easy and I tried to be as proactive as possible.  As an example, our separation started with my call to emergency services, she ended up being arrested for Threat of DV, though a few months later acquitted because she didn't have a weapon in her hands.  Meanwhile, the  court gave me temp possession of our residence.  She rushed to family court to get her own 'protection' from me and included our preschooler.  Her allegations were lame and at the following hearing CPS stood up and stated they had "no concerns" about me.  Problem was, court ignored the fact that I was protected from her and set a 'typical' parenting order, gifting her full custody and majority/primary parenting time in the temp order.  I lived under temp orders during the entire divorce too, a divorce which took two years and had me facing numerous allegations trying to convince everyone I was worse than her.
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lpheal
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« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2019, 02:48:28 PM »


You have yet to learn whether she would, in desperation, make false ("unsubstantiated") allegations against you to make herself look better than you?

Although who files first supposedly does not matter, you may feel better to get it started on the right footing.  If she filed first, do you think it would be free from Blaming, Blame Shifting, even emotionally compelling allegations (but lacking facts)?  Are you okay with being "on the defense" from Day One?


She makes subtle threats about false allegations when she is at her most disordered with me...mostly along the lines of mutually assured destruction..."if you try to take me down, I'll take you down." So if I lead with a TRO, I think she would probably say something like "Well I've been abused too." If I just moved out and then filed, I have trouble seeing her go that way because she doesn't have anything to base it on and I have a lot of evidence to the contrary in my defense. She is very rule oriented and law abiding to the outside world, so I have trouble seeing her carrying through with this to a lawyer and especially to a court.

I feel very confident I would have no personal regrets about getting a divorce. If my D4 is subjected to a painful divorce process lasting years, I can see myself having regrets about the manner (and the timing) in which the process is initiated. I do feel constant grief about knowing my daughter won't have the childhood I had.

My wife has clearly been abusive to me, but never to my D4 (and I've been watching for this for years). I could file for a TRO and very likely get it, and be in the driver's seat for the entire divorce process. This would completely ruin my wife emotionally (if it's possible to get worse), but my real concern is that it would guarantee a pretty nasty adversarial relationship between us for the remainder of my D4s childhood. Maybe that happens regardless. If she initiates or I say I'm moving out, she gets the initial advantage in terms of custody. She also may feel more like she is in control of her life. I still have the immediate win with peace and quiet every night, but then would be on the defensive in terms of custody (and she would then be the custodial parent).

The blame shifting is present regardless of how a divorce is initiated. I'm at peace with that.

My L was discussing this with me, and framing it in terms of me winning and losing. I said I didn't care as much about my winning and losing, because I'll win as soon as I'm out of the relationship. I want my D4 to lose to the least extent and as quickly as possible. If I'm at a custody disadvantage early, but there is a greater chance of seeing her mother put her life together and for us to have peaceful communication regarding her childhood it would feel like a better path to take.


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worriedStepmom
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« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2019, 03:18:23 PM »

You are still trying to manage your W's emotions.  This is not productive.

SOMETHING is going to set your W off at some point.  Maybe not the divorce.  Maybe not anything related to you. But because of the nature of her disorder, there is a high possibility that at some point there will be a trigger and she is going to spiral down the rabbit hole.  My H gets blamed for his exW's current relationship problems.  They've been divorced for 10 years.

Despite the fact that on the surface they have a decent coparenting relationship, if my H ever had a question about their daughter, xw would dysregulate immediately, call the Domestic Violence Hotline (seriously), and have a total emotional breakdown and require her daughter to comfort her. 

You don't want to be on the defensive in terms of custody.  Your wife has demonstrated that she thinks it is acceptable to be physically and emotionally abusive.  Right now, she focuses that on you.  What happens when you are gone?  Will she target D4?  What happens as D4 ages and starts to differentiate from her mother?  Will that spark abuse? Even if it doesn't, with you out of the picture, who is likely going to be asked to manage mom's emotions?  D4.   

My H's ex is a waif/hermit.  He worried that she would commit suicide if he filed for primary custody.  When he finally filed, she spiraled down and finally had a breakdown and ended up in an inpatient treatment program for depression.  It's helped her, and in the two months since she got out, there have been fewer incidents.  She seems less entitled now that H is legally in charge of SD, and her relationship with SD is better than it has ever been.  Their coparenting relationship is also better than it had been.

I do feel constant grief about knowing my daughter won't have the childhood I had.

This is my biggest regret from my divorce, and I still have pangs of regret 8 years later.  You will need to go through the entire grieving process for your dreams for your daughter.  They were never attainable with your STBX. 

The good news is that you now have an opportunity to create a new dream and a new life for you and your child.

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livednlearned
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« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2019, 10:44:57 AM »

I would consider it a major blessing if she initiated, and that would feel like control to her. I just doubt it will happen though.

Threatening divorce without doing anything is a form of control.

It also takes a lot of executive function to follow through on a divorce, and executive function can be hard to sustain when someone is flooded with emotion.

In other publications Eddy describes three kinds of high-conflict people and how those types may influence the different kinds of high-conflict strategies you use.

*generally cooperative, not dangerous
*not cooperative, not dangerous
*not cooperative, dangerous

By dangerous, he means domestic abuse, substance abuse, a history of making false allegations. He also distinguishes between BPD and HCP (high-conflict person). HCP is someone who has a target of blame (you), is a persuasive blamer, and has a personality disorder. Not all people with BPD are HCPs, but all HCPs have a PD, if that makes sense.

If your wife is generally cooperative and not dangerous, or not cooperative and not dangerous, it's possible that a highly skilled attorney like Eddy could help minimize the conflict.

I also think leverage can't be overstated altho that isn't something you can fabricate, it has to be present. For example, evidence of an affair in a state with alienation of affection laws.

Unfortunately, winning is something you do have to care about. No one really wins in these cases, it's more about who loses less. Whatever you win will be a win for D4 because you're the stable parent.

And as good a mother as your wife may be, remember that your D4 is going to grow into a more independent individuated child which can feel like abandonment to a BPD sufferer. Divorce can also press the gas of parental alienation and having more time with D4 will improve your chances of offsetting those risks, in addition to learning some non-intuitive skills for neutralizing the alienation.

The best way to prepare for a high-conflict divorce is to go into it with a lot of information and eyes wide open, being five to ten steps ahead so you aren't surprised when stuff happens. The key is to not freak yourself out while you're thinking about those worst-case scenarios.

My ex was a former trial attorney and that stripped me of all hope that I would *win* anything, much less full custody. It was because of his background that I planned my exit and divorce for the better part of two years. There was the expected amount of conflict and then some but looking back I can see how planning for the worst was my best asset.

You might be fortunate and discover your wife doesn't have the follow-through to be high-conflict. She might have a bigger bark than bite. Signs of how she responds to a divorce will probably be evident in the marriage, you just have to be willing to look directly at that evidence without looking away.

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« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2019, 02:39:35 PM »

but my real concern is that it would guarantee a pretty nasty adversarial relationship between us for the remainder of my D4s childhood. Maybe that happens regardless.

Hi lpheal. I will echo what worriedStepmom advised. You don't really get to control how your relationship will be with your uBPDw. Have you ever been able to control much of anything that she does past or current? Truth is, you both likely will feel shortchanged in terms of parenting relationship. The question is what is best for your D4, and what is best for you? If she has been/is abusive to you, then staying under the present conditions is not good for you.

What about D4? My T once told me that no matter how well I handled my xw's abusive language and actions, my sons would be affected by that abuse. The effects would likely show up in how they perceive relationships to be, patterning themselves to be abusers or enablers. That's how I grew up. I didn't want that for them. That drove me to leave more than my own discomfort and personal pain. And, despite some level of an adversarial parenting relationship that certainly does affect my sons negatively, I have no regrets for having initiated the divorce.

I also wanted to advise you to really consider what you want. You mention that you don't care about winning or losing. You mention that she may have an initial custody advantage. Right now, these things are coping strategies you are using to extricate yourself from a harmful situation. But, would you really be okay with seeing your daughter every other weekend or less than half the time? It's okay if you are, but is that what you want? If you leave, there is a possibility your wife will be more stressed and behave worse. In that light, is it truly better for D4 to spend most of her time with her mom?

I kind of thought like you are now, but I knew I wanted more than every other weekend, which is exactly what my wife proposed before I moved out. I believed that I fully should have at least 50% time, but I settled for less. My xw did behave worse under stress, did have problems, and ultimately, I knew that I should have aimed a lot higher. Family court is adversarial (especially when involving an HCP) - there's a high chance that no matter the concessions you are willing to make, take the high road, be reasonable, etc. that it is going to be adverserial anyway. Try to keep what is good for you and your daughter foremost v. what would cause least disruption/harm to your wife. She has to be responsible for her. You have to stop being responsible for her. That's the hard lesson that I learned as I went through this process.
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lpheal
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« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2019, 04:28:13 PM »


If your wife is generally cooperative and not dangerous, or not cooperative and not dangerous, it's possible that a highly skilled attorney like Eddy could help minimize the conflict.

I also think leverage can't be overstated altho that isn't something you can fabricate, it has to be present. For example, evidence of an affair in a state with alienation of affection laws.



My wife has been verbally, emotionally and physically abusive to me, so I guess she qualifies as dangerous. She has done a few things I feel like would qualify as parental alienation...telling our D4 that "Daddy is a liar" and things like that. She acts so differently to everyone else, I couldn't even guess how she would behave around attorneys or a judge. I feel like she would try to be nice at first and tell a sob story, then would shift tactics and get really nasty if that wasn't working.

There is no need to fabricate abuse, I am clearly being abused verbally every day. Physical abuse has become more frequent as well. I'll admit I'm very scared to call the police. She can change her personality with a snap of the finger...and it's then a he said she said. There would have to be a time where she is clearly intoxicated (and detectable on a breathalyzer) and I haven't had a drop, and she goes on a rampage then I feel like I would have an opening. Also, I live in a state where they tie one hand behind your back. If single party recording was allowed, I would have slam dunk evidence. Right now I have pictures of personal injuries and broken household items she throws around.  When she does hit me and I put up an arm to block her, she says "you just hit me" as if to scare me about a false accusation.
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lpheal
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« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2019, 04:32:55 PM »

If she has been/is abusive to you, then staying under the present conditions is not good for you.

But, would you really be okay with seeing your daughter every other weekend or less than half the time? It's okay if you are, but is that what you want? If you leave, there is a possibility your wife will be more stressed and behave worse. In that light, is it truly better for D4 to spend most of her time with her mom?


I do realize staying in this situation is not good for me. I do have specific reasons I haven't left yet, but I'm reevaluating the wisdom of my reasoning in view of a recent increase in abuse.

Right now, the weekends are so bad that 50% of the time with D4 where those weekends are always great would be a huge improvement. It's not ideal, but was advised 50/50 or something close to that was likely regardless.
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MeandThee29
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« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2019, 08:20:23 PM »

Threatening divorce without doing anything is a form of control.

It also takes a lot of executive function to follow through on a divorce, and executive function can be hard to sustain when someone is flooded with emotion.

The best way to prepare for a high-conflict divorce is to go into it with a lot of information and eyes wide open, being five to ten steps ahead so you aren't surprised when stuff happens. The key is to not freak yourself out while you're thinking about those worst-case scenarios.

Yes, I've wondered about these things. Thank you for articulating.

Mine threatened for over a decade in the marriage, and then multiple times during separation. Now he says it's time and is studying to do it pro se. It's a big step and means a break with his family that he may be unwilling to do. I'm not sure what they say.

One lawyer I consulted said that people who threaten for years sometimes never do get around to doing it.

I'm preparing though and believe that my discussions with live lawyers is more accurate that books and Internet. The lawyers I've talked to have said that coming to some sort of agreement before they get involved is of course a good thing, but to not go the whole way alone. Thankfully no child custody issues.

We'll see. I'm  preparing "as if" but know anything could happen.  
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ForeverDad
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« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2019, 06:50:39 AM »

In the last months of my imploding marriage I recorded the incidents.  Good that I did, on the day I first called the police she claimed I was the instigator and one of the officers asked me to hand my sobbing preschooler over to his mother and "step away".  When I finally got a divorce lawyer, a former police officer, he told me SOP is to remove one of the disputing spouses to defuse the immediate situation and I would have been arrested.  Ha!  That didn't happen, only because my son squealed and clung to me tighter.  Yes, my son saved me!  Days later I downloaded the recording and when the police heard it she was arrested for Threat of DV.  If I didn't have recordings I couldn't have defended myself.

Of course, I didn't wave any recording device around in her face, that would have inflamed even more incidents.  I did it quietly for my protection.  If questioned, I could have truthfully replied that I recorded myself to ensure I wasn't successfully falsely accused.  If she happened to get recorded too, well, that was on her...

If she threatens suicide and you do call emergency services (they're qualified to handle such things) be prepared that by the time they arrive she'll be composed and deny ever saying such things.  Would the witnesses support your side of the story?  Or would you have other documentation such as a recording of her threats?

I've been here on the boards for more than a dozen years.  Yes, many had been warned not to record, especially recording the children.  But I don't recall any members getting arrested for recording.  At most a handful were strictly told by the court not to record their children.  So my conclusion is this is a case where generally there's more bark than bite.  You may get lectured but as long as you handle it reasonably there are unlikely to be negative consequences.  As I wrote, one approach to deflect suspicions of bad motives is to maintain a stance that you're recording yourself to protect yourself from false allegations, like an insurance policy.
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SamwizeGamgee
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« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2019, 03:27:19 PM »

I'm just catching up.  I would like to comment that a child watching one parent abuse, bad-mouth, or degrade the other parent _is_ child abuse.  So, it's not fair to anyone to believe that your wife just abuses you, and not the kid. 
On another note, in agreement with FD.  A recording is not really in order to produce admissible evidence, rather it would most likely serve as an on-scene witness when the cops do show up.  When I was recording, for some reason, I seemed to act on my better behavior too.  MAybe I should always do it!  ;)
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