I got 33 emails from her last night part 2

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=334148.0

So, ten days later...

I have been successful at not engaging the email back and forth. I've asked to see her most every day, and asked to hear from her before dark. Some days I have, and some days I haven't. On those I haven't, I have tended to get lots of emails/texts all night long. On those nights, I have responded once, then just let them go. I suppose this has been better for my sanity. Not seeing much change on her end.

On the positive side, there have not been any suicide threats (some ideation, but not threats) or threats to burn down the house. On the not so positive side, we have even fewer dishes and there are many more drywall holes to patch. On the positive side, I wasn't there for the dish breaking and she mostly cleaned it up herself. All in all, my not responding doesn't seem to make things worse. The day after all night texts/emails seems to go the same whether I've responded or not.

I'm going to do my best to stick with this, while staying prepared for the threats to come again. I appreciate the support here. It's been really helpful for making this small (though really big for me) change.

[stolencrumbs]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=334148.0

So, ten days later...

I have been successful at not engaging the email back and forth. I've asked to see her most every day, and asked to hear from her before dark. Some days I have, and some days I haven't. On those I haven't, I have tended to get lots of emails/texts all night long. On those nights, I have responded once, then just let them go. I suppose this has been better for my sanity. Not seeing much change on her end.

On the positive side, there have not been any suicide threats (some ideation, but not threats) or threats to burn down the house. On the not so positive side, we have even fewer dishes and there are many more drywall holes to patch. On the positive side, I wasn't there for the dish breaking and she mostly cleaned it up herself. All in all, my not responding doesn't seem to make things worse. The day after all night texts/emails seems to go the same whether I've responded or not.

I'm going to do my best to stick with this, while staying prepared for the threats to come again. I appreciate the support here. It's been really helpful for making this small (though really big for me) change.

[formflier]

Good job!   

There is a concept that I hope you will understand.  Intermittent reinforcement

A way of thinking about it is "being consistent"

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61921.10

There are several threads about it on bpdfamily, above is just one example. 

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0

The thread above explains better why avoiding intermittent reinforcement is critical.

After reading those threads, I'd be interested in reading your thoughts on how the concept applies to your situation.

Again...solid work on making changes!  Really proud of you!   

FF

[GaGrl]

I think your comment on the day after being the same, whether you were there or responded more, is key.

[Cat Familiar]

Awesome, stolencrumbs 

This is a great example of how much we can change things by changing our responses.

What's next on your list?

[Notwendy]

we have even fewer dishes and there are many more drywall holes to patch.

I think it is great that you held your boundary with the emails and responding not to everything. As you know, there can be an extinction burst. I also like that you let her clean up the mess she makes smashing dishes. Consequences are often the best teachers.

This brought back a childhood memory of my BPD mom trashing the kitchen when she was in a rage. I'm sorry you have to deal with this.

[stolencrumbs]

FF -- I don't, personally, find the behaviorism stuff helpful. I understand it, and I don't doubt that it accurately describes how things tend to go. I have my copy of "Don't Shoot the Dog" around here somewhere. And I have two not-very-well trained dogs that demonstrate the effect of inconsistency. So I do get it. To me, it feels manipulative, and paternalistic, and that's not how I want to relate to my wife.

I guess I think about it like this. When she is throwing everything at me to try to get me to respond, thinking that I need to refrain from responding in order to discourage certain behaviors on her part doesn't really help me not respond. That feels like me deciding for her what is best for her, and trying to teach her a lesson or mold her behavior to my liking. I don't like the way that feels. Maybe there's some better way to think about it, but that's how behaviorism strikes me.

For me, it's been better to think about how I want to relate to and communicate with my wife. *I* don't want to engage in endless and pointless emails that are filled with accusations and blame. Whether my not engaging affects her behavior is largely beside the point. To be sure, it would be a nice bonus if it affected it, and I suspect it will, but my main motivation needs to be about me and what I do and don't want to do, independently of how it affects her behavior.

Gagirl -- Yes! That has been huge for me to see. I didn't think what I was doing was making anything better, but I did think I was somehow keeping things from getting worse. I'm seeing now that that isn't true, and that's big.

Cat -- Thanks. I'm not celebrating yet. Not sure what is next. For the moment I'm going to get better and more comfortable with this.

NotWendy -- It really is amazing how many dishes have been broken. I'm pretty sure when we moved here years ago we had a full 8 piece place setting and some other random dishes. I think we now have one bowl, one dinner plate, and two pasta bowls that she likes to use for everything. This is, I think, the first time she's broken dishes when I wasn't there or when I didn't show up shortly after. One thing it did clarify was how much control she does have even when she is raging. She is, in some sense, out of control, but there is also a good bit of thought. Her favorite bowls somehow haven't been broken. And this last time, when I wasn't there, she broke things by throwing them down the stairs into the basement. She normally breaks them on the kitchen floor. By throwing them in the basement, she didn't have to clean it up immediately, since the dogs don't go down there. She also didn't have to see it. She left it for at least a couple of days, but did eventually clean it up. Anyway, that demonstrates a lot more thought and control than I imagined she had in those moments.

[babyducks]

I feel the same way you do about the behaviorism stuff, stolencrumbs.  I find it to be manipulative.  To me it contributes to the shame/blame.     ~I~ am better than you and will teach you the right way.

I'm pleased to hear you say that your main motivation needs to be about you, what you want to do and what you don't want to do.    Honestly that's an insight that many people here struggle to get.    It's an important distinction.     It's not about fixing another person,  or responding to another 's behavior,  outwitting them or changing them.  I think it's about figuring out what this moment is inviting us to do so that we are better and happier individuals.

I also really like your other insight that you weren't keeping things from getting worse.    I believe that is a fairly large mind set shift for you.    That would take some getting used to.

I'm glad you found ways to change your daily life.

'ducks

[Cat Familiar]

FF -- I don't, personally, find the behaviorism stuff helpful. I understand it, and I don't doubt that it accurately describes how things tend to go. I have my copy of "Don't Shoot the Dog" around here somewhere. And I have two not-very-well trained dogs that demonstrate the effect of inconsistency. So I do get it. To me, it feels manipulative, and paternalistic, and that's not how I want to relate to my wife.

I guess I think about it like this. When she is throwing everything at me to try to get me to respond, thinking that I need to refrain from responding in order to discourage certain behaviors on her part doesn't really help me not respond. That feels like me deciding for her what is best for her, and trying to teach her a lesson or mold her behavior to my liking. I don't like the way that feels. Maybe there's some better way to think about it, but that's how behaviorism strikes me.

For me, it's been better to think about how I want to relate to and communicate with my wife. *I* don't want to engage in endless and pointless emails that are filled with accusations and blame. Whether my not engaging affects her behavior is largely beside the point. To be sure, it would be a nice bonus if it affected it, and I suspect it will, but my main motivation needs to be about me and what I do and don't want to do, independently of how it affects her behavior.

I have that book too!  

I have a bit of a different perspective on behaviorism than you or babyducks. Having lots of critters: cats, goats, sheep, horses, and a donkey--I incorporate lots of principles of behaviorism on an everyday basis. And for me, it's not manipulative, rather it's for self-protection and social cohesion.

I'm very clear on what is appropriate behavior toward me. Now they all have free will and it's their choice if they want to be polite or not. ("Be polite" is a phrase I use with the horses and when I tell them that, they back up and give me space.) To me, it's all about getting along peacefully and everyone getting their needs met in an easy, efficient manner.

And it's about boundaries. I will not put up with bad, destructive behavior. Fine, you go do that and when you're done with that, then I'll return and when we're all being easy and comfortable with each other, then I'll give you your hay or cat food, or scratch behind your ears. You want something from me and I want civil behavior and then we all get along and meet each others' needs.

It's not a big stretch for me to do this with humans. You are friendly and kind, I'll be that way too. You are nasty and cruel--well you can do that alone and when you want companionship, then step up your game and I'll be there with you.

[formflier]

Cat Familiar,

Would you say that you are establishing yourself as the "alpha"? 

Is that another way to look at it?

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I have to take the alpha role with the animals, since they cannot feed or medicate themselves, and in the case of equines, don't understand that they outweigh me by ten times--and I never want them to realize that.  

But I certainly don't think of myself as "alpha" with people, who have autonomy and can make their own choices.

Growing up with a BPD mother, I had a "boundary-less" childhood, but I now have strong boundaries.

Due to being overly accommodating in the past, now I no longer have patience to tolerate bad behavior. So if other people want to behave badly, they can seek attention elsewhere.
 

[Notwendy]

Yes, we had quite a few dishes smashed when I was growing up.

For the behaviorism, I think it is more about being mindful than being manipulative. Basically all living creatures respond to different forms of reinforcement. When we are enabling- we are reinforcing some behaviors that we don't want- and so being mindful of this helps us to change our behaviors.

You mentioned that you teach- grades are a form of reinforcement, so is a paycheck. Negative reinforcement would be something like a  speeding ticket for driving too fast. When we enable someone we care about, we remove the natural forms of reinforcement that most of us respond to. Being mindful of this allows us to change our behavior and allows them to learn from their behavior. Enabling may feel like we are "being nice" but we can be interfering with their emotional growth if we do that.

The natural consequences of breaking all the dishes is no dishes to eat on. If you keep replacing them, then the dish breaking behavior is likely to not stop.

Basically- we are all reinforcing other people's behavior one way or another and being mindful of that may help us stop reinforcing unwanted behavior or doing something that isn't really the best for the person we care about in the long run by enabling dysfunctional behavior.

[formflier]

How many dishes have you replaced in the past? 

How many holes patched?


Curious about your plans for the future now that you've read some of these comments?

Best,

FF

[stolencrumbs]

We haven't replaced any dishes. We just have many fewer dishes. I have replaced a broken window, though not the dish that broke it. I really can't count the number of holes/dents I've patched. Dozens and dozens. I'll probably keep patching them.

It's interesting that Notwendy mentions grades. I don't grade in my classes, at least not in any traditional sense. I'll have to think more about how much overlap there is between my reasons for that and my thoughts on this. I'm guessing there is some.

I have a hard time reconciling behaviorism with the idea that what I can and should control is me. What I have direct control over are my thoughts, feelings, beliefs, and actions. When I start thinking about how my actions will or will not cause my wife to behave in certain ways, that seems to me to shift the focus away from what I can control towards something else--her behavior. That's not the goal I want to have. That starts to feel like a game to me, and I don't want to play the game. I'm not saying this is the only way to see it. It's just the way it feels to me. I can step back and see the behavioral patterns from an objective point of view, but that doesn't translate into motivation for me when I'm actually in the situations.

So what I want to focus on is being the kind of person I want to be, and acting in ways that are consistent with that. I don't know exactly what that entails at the moment, but it at least means not responding and getting caught up in endless emails/texts/circular arguments. They make me agitated, anxious, and angry, and I don't want to be feel or act on those things. I don't want to engage with my wife when I feel those things. That's not who I want to be. And at least at the moment, that's what is motivating me.

[formflier]

  I'll probably keep patching them.
 .

why doesn't she patch them?  Or..leave the holes?

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I have a hard time reconciling behaviorism with the idea that what I can and should control is me. What I have direct control over are my thoughts, feelings, beliefs, and actions.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Did you enter into this relationship wanting to be a drywall contractor? Or thinking that you should pay for a home you can't live in? Or dealing with suicide threats on a regular basis?

I don't believe you chose any of these things when you married your wife, but now you're accustomed to them.

When I start thinking about how my actions will or will not cause my wife to behave in certain ways, that seems to me to shift the focus away from what I can control towards something else--her behavior. That's not the goal I want to have. That starts to feel like a game to me, and I don't want to play the game.

But you are playing the game already, and you've been playing by her rules for so long that you've forgotten that you have any free will.

I speak from the experience of someone who in my previous relationship dealt with suicide threats and physical violence. I became so inured to it that my only response was to freeze and hope that it would be over soon. I didn't want to do anything that might elicit these behaviors, so I appeased and placated and hoped for the best.

The turning point was when I was several hundred miles from home, the day after my father passed away after a long debilitating illness and I realized that my mother had dementia. My husband called me, hours after I had made funeral arrangements, and told me that if I didn't immediately fly home, he would commit suicide. That pushed me over the edge. There was no way that I was leaving my mother's side before the funeral, so I called a suicide prevention hotline, asking for advice.

I called him back, armed with the information I had been given, and that was the last time he ever threatened suicide to me. (However he did that with his next girlfriend.) It was then that I realized that I was enabling him with my behavior, instead of thinking that I was just "allowing him to be him".

After that initial awakening, it occurred to me that I had accepted all sorts of behavior that in no way aligned with my values. And it became clear that I had allowed myself to be "held hostage" by his unacceptable behavior.

So what I want to focus on is being the kind of person I want to be, and acting in ways that are consistent with that. I don't know exactly what that entails at the moment, but it at least means not responding and getting caught up in endless emails/texts/circular arguments. They make me agitated, anxious, and angry, and I don't want to be feel or act on those things. I don't want to engage with my wife when I feel those things. That's not who I want to be. And at least at the moment, that's what is motivating me.

As I recall, you were very reluctant not to participate in those endless late night email exchanges. Now you've seen the utility of behaving in accordance with your values, the result has been that you've been less anxious and irritated.

This is a good example of having boundaries and responding in a way that's in keeping with your desire to be the kind of person you want to be.

[Notwendy]

One of the illusions of being a "nice person" is that we are being kind to another person. However, if we are enabling them, it isn't being kind, because it is keeping them from behaving at their best. So the "kind " thing to do would then be to allow them to learn from their behavior ( unless they are putting themselves in serious harm).

This is an aspect of parenting. We impose consequences on children so that they learn how the world works. If you don't go to school or do your homework, there are consequences- because if you don't go to work or do your work as an adult, you won't keep your job. Being "too nice"- letting your child stay home when they don't want to, doing their homework for them- will not teach them the skills they need to function as adults.

You may not give grades, but you must have some sort of assessment that your students have done their work, or the school would lose accreditation. Giving a student credit for a class where they didn't do anything would then set them up for not knowing information they need to know. I know you don't do that.

You also must have behavioral standards in the class- for any age. I assume if one of your students was putting holes in the school wall- you wouldn't just patch them up and say "it's OK". It isn't OK to put holes in walls.

There's a saying- we teach people how to treat us. That's boundaries. You wouldn't allow strangers to have access to your bank account, a key to your house. These are boundaries. It's not OK to e mail someone 33 times, scream at you, break dishes and punch holes in walls.

Whether we know it or not, we are using behaviorism all the time. Humans respond to reinforcements. How many people would go to work every day if they didn't get paid? How many students would do their homework if it didn't count at all or nobody cared to read it?

[babyducks]

Enabling.   Co-Dependency.   Boundaries.   Over Functioning.    Under Functioning.   I do not see these as buttons, or switches that are either on or off but more as knobs that we dial in amounts that fit.    I did not set the same kind of boundaries with my Mother (or in the same way) as I did with my seriously ill partner.   And I don't use the tools the same way each and every time I pick them up.    For me, it's a lot more complicated than that.   One size does not fit all.    No one here should or could tell you what to do or how to do it.    I don't personally feel comfortable with behaviorisms and the more intimate the relationship the less likely I am to engage in them.    

I am completely with Cat,   when my horse tries to bite my face off, (he does that because he is a horse) I have a set of behaviors that puts Geronimo right back in his place.   That works because he is a horse.   If I tried that with a human I'd likely be going to jail.    There are distinctions and nuances that are more complex with humans.    

What's the difference between letting go of something and giving up on something.    Externally the action might look exactly the same.   Internally the emotions and motivations that drive the action are entirely different.    Giving up on training for a 5k might be a collapse, an exhaustion, an action driven by fatigue and pain.    Letting go of training for a 5k might be a realization that this bad knee won't take it, an understanding that it's no longer with in the realm of physical possibility.    the final results the same... no training for a 5k, the path I took to get there is different.

what's that have to do with you stolencrumbs?

So what I want to focus on is being the kind of person I want to be, and acting in ways that are consistent with that. I don't know exactly what that entails at the moment, but it at least means not responding and getting caught up in endless emails/texts/circular arguments. They make me agitated, anxious, and angry, and I don't want to be feel or act on those things. I don't want to engage with my wife when I feel those things. That's not who I want to be. And at least at the moment, that's what is motivating me.

I think focusing on being the kind of person you want to be is a worthy goal.  I think it's a good path forward.   I'd suggest that rather than us focusing on something that's not working all that well for you right now, behaviorism, to move to something that is working for you.     something that is motivating you.   Not acting from a place of agitation, anxiety and anger.    I think those feelings are going to exist, we can't get rid of our feelings but we can respond differently too them.   Not engaging with your wife when agitated and anxious and angry seems doable too.   within reason.

do you mind if I ask...    is there something your wife does that makes you particularly agitated anxious and angry?   and has that happened recently?    

'ducks

[Notwendy]

I agree that you should not do something you are uncomfortable with, and I don't think we should treat humans the way we treat horses. What I meant to say is that- we are always reinforcing some kind of behavior whether or not we intend to and trying to be mindful of that can help. I don't think we should use behaviorism to "train" a person or manipulate them.

I think also paying attention to our own feelings and trying to live according to our best values is a good step.

[formflier]

And...while the "way" we send a message might be different, the "message" we are sending to horses and "some" humans is the same.

"Back off...you are in my space.."

Sometimes horses back off and then look at you like "ok...so...now what?"   Then you might have a good training sessions.  Or they may continue to pitch a fit and maybe they should be left to sort through that.

Same "broadly speaking" kind of thing with pwBPD. 

Just like there are massive variations in horses, we seem to have stumbled across "massive" variation in acceptable behavior in humans. 

Some pragmatic change on our part usually takes a lot of the "bit" out of those things.

Some of the stuff is dysfunction and needs to be isolated, some needs RA.

For instance...we have a horse (thoroughbred) that refuses any kind of treat and frankly isn't very friendly at all.  Yet when you get in the saddle it's all business...ready to go.

I use RA with that horse.  It is what it is.

FF

[stolencrumbs]

I basically agree (or, at least, I'm not actively disagreeing) with most of what has been said. I'm not denying that incentives matter to human behavior. Obviously they do. And I think being mindful of what those incentives are can be helpful. My main point was not to question behaviorism generally (though that's a fun topic, too), but to just point out that I don't find it particularly helpful. It does invite comparisons to how we train animals or teach children, and I don't tend to find those comparisons helpful for me in my r/s. And if I find myself thinking about my r/s with my wife in terms of operant conditioning, well...just not helpful for me, even if the underlying ideas are true. I can learn all about the physics of a curveball, but that's probably not going to be helpful to me when I'm actually trying to hit one.

[Cat Familiar]

So, to get back to the question of who do you want to be in this relationship? What is your longterm plan?

Do you want to move if you can find a job elsewhere? Would you be interested in doing this if she had no opinion on the matter?

Do you want to do repairs on the house for things she has damaged? Do you want to fix up the house so you can sell it?

Do want to live apart from her or would you ideally like to live together, if she would permit it?

I think answers to these and other questions and comparison to your current situation will give you a road map for how you might currently not be living in accord with your values.

[Enabler]

One of the pitfalls of using a 'technique' to 'deal' with a pwBPD is that eventually they can feel manipulated/controlled. Regardless of whether or not there is any truth in the feeling (and in the case of applying behavioural science to your wife there's a good argument to say it is covertly manipulative) that they are being manipulated their feeling = fact.

Someone asked me this weekend "is your therapist a strategist?" It took me aback and also took me a while to think about the right way to respond to this. My T isn't as much a strategist and more someone who 'gets it' and whom reminds me of a likely path my choices will take and prepares me for that path. We talk a lot about the children and how I can better serve them in general as a father... irrespective of what happens in my relationship with their mother.

However, I sense this is a feeling that she now has, that I am somehow coming up with a strategy to 'win' and she 'loses'. This isn't true and I am not trying to 'win', I am trying to get to the best possible outcome possible given her free choices. No one 'wins', we're all losers.

I see this as one of the natural consequences of behaving differently, picking and choosing how we respond to things rather than reacting in the same old ways. Our changes mean they make different choices and since they cannot own their own feelings, their frustrations are projected on to us... we made them feel differently. My wife see's my behaviour now as unnatural, and she'd be right, it's taken 18m of thought and hard work to completely change the way I respond to her... but she's yet to believe in it's genuine nature.

Enabler

[Notwendy]

For me, the change in mindset didn't come from a desire to change the other person's behavior through behavior modification but to stop harming them with my "helping " behavior. Through work with a T, I was able to see what I thought was being kind and selfless was really being selfish. I was avoiding the other person's distress at me for saying no, so I was actually saying yes when I meant no- and that was lying to them. I was not being authentic in the relationship.

To me, "being a good person" was shaped by my upbringing. It served a purpose for me growing up. I also got approval from my parents for that behavior but bringing that behavior into my marriage was not good for me, or good for my H.

By allowing my H to treat me poorly, I was not bringing out the best in him. I was reinforcing the worst in him. I was reinforcing his rages by giving in and not allowing him to learn to manage his own emotions when I walked on eggshells around him. To me- this was being a good person ( as my parents taught me) but it took a wise T to point this out. If I want to act in a loving way to my H, I need to be authentic, and that means he may not like it,  but I have to allow him to manage that.

Taking this back to my parents I can see how we have harmed my BPD mother in our efforts to be the "good people". Decades of how we treated her have left her with a sense of entitlement and increased her bullying behavior. I saw plenty of dishes fly when I was a kid. ( the whole kitchen trashed actually). It's been a task to change things now that she is elderly but our relationship is actually better than it has been because I don't allow her hurtful behaviors to get her what she wants. I am still kind to her and I don't control or manipulate her by behaviorism. I just had to change my mindset- is what I am doing really loving or caring? Is it honest? Or is it selfish? And when it comes right down to it, enabling, being the hero, the rescuer, may feel like we are being the good guy here, but if we really look at it, it isn't.

It's really about us, and looking at ourselves- and questioning our ideas about what being a good person is. I had to examine this and change it- in myself not the other person.

[Cat Familiar]

One of the pitfalls of using a 'technique' to 'deal' with a pwBPD is that eventually they can feel manipulated/controlled.

I'm not able to use any linguistic techniques with my husband. Due to his years of practicing law and his continuing study of language, he quickly picks up patterns, so SET and DEARMAN sound contrived to him.

Instead, I must be mindful and not invalidate him and be validating where it's genuine. Most important, I must be aware of my boundaries and not compromise my principles by appeasing or placating.

I could look at all of this in terms of operant conditioning, which it is, but as you've said, stolencrumbs, that's not useful from your perspective. Another way to see this is that I am consistently being honest and behaving in a way that maintains my integrity.

[formflier]

  It does invite comparisons to how we train animals or teach children, and I don't tend to find those comparisons helpful for me in my r/s.

Could you expand on this some? 

Also can you expand on what you do find helpful in your r/s.

FF

[stolencrumbs]

do you mind if I ask...    is there something your wife does that makes you particularly agitated anxious and angry?   and has that happened recently?    

'ducks

There are lots of things, but here's the thing on my mind now that tends to make me feel anxious. The short version is that I feel like I'm always being tested. Last night she told me I needed to "step up." (This was part of 27 texts in two hours after she had asked me to leave our house.) She says things like this a lot. So then I sit around during the day at work and spin around in my head what I need to do to "step up." And then I get mad that I'm wasting time trying to figure out how to do the impossible. Then I imagine what doing nothing tonight looks like, and I get anxious about that. So back to "what can I do." Then back to realizing the futility of that. etc. So the constant testing makes me angry and anxious. I hear a lot about what I don't do, what I better be doing, what she needs to see me doing, that I need to step up, etc. Really, really, tired of it.

[formflier]

  So the constant testing makes me angry and anxious. I hear a lot about what I don't do, what I better be doing, what she needs to see me doing, that I need to step up, etc. Really, really, tired of it.

How often do you "test" her?  How often do you tell her to step up?

Does she define "step up"?

Bigger picture question...what do you think she is actually trying to do by testing and telling you these things.  Is it an "emotional" goal or a "rational" goal?

I haven't forgotten about the behavioral stuff...we can chat about that  after clarifying the above.

FF

[stolencrumbs]

Could you expand on this some? 

Also can you expand on what you do find helpful in your r/s.

FF

Not sure what more to say. It isn't helpful for me to think about treating my wife the way I would treat an animal or a child. She is neither. We are in positions of power with respect to children and animals. We can and should try to control and shape their behavior. We should be teaching them. That is not the position I want to be in with my wife. It isn't how I would want someone to view their relationship with me. (I am not saying there isn't a better, healthier way to view this stuff that doesn't involve treating my wife like a child. I don't think that is what y'all are suggesting, and I don't think it means you view your own r/s this way. These are just the connections that go on in my brain when I think about incentives and reinforcing behavior, etc, and for that reason, this viewpoint is not helpful for me.)

I think what has been most helpful for me is to think about and try to stay clear about what I can and should control.

[stolencrumbs]

How often do you "test" her?  How often do you tell her to step up?

Does she define "step up"?

Bigger picture question...what do you think she is actually trying to do by testing and telling you these things.  Is it an "emotional" goal or a "rational" goal?

I haven't forgotten about the behavioral stuff...we can chat about that  after clarifying the above.

FF

I don't have any tests for her that I'm aware of. I've never told her to step up.

She vaguely defines it. "Do something that shows me that you care about the things that matter to me."

I think she wants to feel loved, and she believes there is something I could do that would make her feel that.

[formflier]

I think she wants to feel loved, and she believes there is something I could do that would make her feel that.

I think it's more simplistic than this.  She "feels" that if you did "x" that what is causing her immediate concern would be fixed or better.

It's likely a way of externalizing her issues or assuming the "victim" stance/position.  Certainly she is not the source of her problems and she has identified your lack of action/failure to step us as THE or A cause and she is trying to "fix" that.

I doubt she is doing this "thoughtfully"...but it's still a manipulation tactic. 

Broadly speaking, you'll need to find a way to resist/ignore the manipulation and focus on the feeling she is working through.

Shifting gears a bit.

I get it that you don't "want" to think of relating to your wife as a child and use the behavioral techniques for a spoiled toddler (for instance).  However I would encourage you to be thoughtful about "if the shoe fits..."   

More specifically, how would you relate/talk to a spoiled toddler that would "help" them work through their immediate issue and help the grow for the future so they don't act out so much.

The parallels are shocking to when compared to dealing with a pwBPD. 

I'm not suggesting you "treat her like a child" all the time, but when she is acting like a child trowing a fit..it's important you use the appropriate tools, even if you don't "want" to.

Hang in there...you are doing good work understanding things that are NOT easy to understand.

Best,

FF