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Author Topic: Confirmed that he is still talking to ex part 2  (Read 1687 times)
Perdita
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« on: March 05, 2019, 07:15:41 AM »

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=334563.30

Perdita

This is hard and ridiculous at the same time. Him talking to is ex should be a big no period. At the same time it’s sad that you’d have to resort to tactics of monitoring, and suspicioun. Honestly I can be pretty cynical when it comes to things like this.
That's the double edged sword when it comes to these things, isn't it?  We monitor to confirm first and foremost to ourselves that we aren't crazy.  Yet, once we have the evidence they will still deny it and then make sure everyone knows you were checking up on them and then ... you're the crazy one.  That seems to be the number 1 tactic I see BPD people use.  At least the "closeted" ones.

Really I don’t buy it when he says he’s just communicating, why even communicate in such a manner. If he’s not having an affair my hard blunt reality tells me one is in the making. His comments about being able to hangout with other woman as long as he’s not having sex with them is also ridiculous. You have someone with compulsive issues hanging out with the opposite sex in a very questionable way to begin with.
Thank you for the validation.  

I also feel you’re stuck because now anything you do(minitoring) will come off as you being a controlling person. Enabler is also right if you continue to monitor you’ll have to keep your emotions in check. Any premature mention or clues of the monitoring will have him thinking of ways to circumvent the situation. If you’re seeking for something in particular I wouldn’t mention anything until it’s verified or unverified. I do hope things get better for you.

I agree.  One thing I really need to try and do, but haven't in months is to try and check his phone.  I will hit the on button ever so often to see what notifications are on the opening screen.  One thing I have noticed more than anything when doing this is that there are notifications saying how much he withdrew from ATMs on the days he is off to buy drugs.  I am shocked at the amounts I am seeing.  Always in the same range which leads me to believe it all goes to his dealer.
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« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2019, 08:02:16 AM »

One thing I really need to try and do, but haven't in months is to try and check his phone.

i dont think the healthy approach to all of this is to up the ante as far as monitoring him.

its gone pretty far already, and im not sure, at this point, what it would serve.

there are a few moving parts to all of this, as i see it.

1. it doesnt sound like he is physically cheating. i believe you mentioned shes in a relationship. if this has been going on for six years, it likely would have played itself out.

2. it does sound like the relationship is inappropriate and damaging to your relationship.

3. it sounds like he is dishonest about a number of things

4. perhaps most importantly, the two of you are not at all aligned when it comes to the nature of opposite sex friendships as it pertains to your relationship, and both of you have pretty blurry boundaries in a number of areas. in this case, hes increasingly leaning on dishonesty, and youre increasingly leaning on spying. neither are a way to improve your relationship, fix the circumstances/differences, they both only damage trust.

so why double down on this approach?

it seems to me you have a lot of complaints about the relationship, in addition to this. what keeps you in it?
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« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2019, 09:50:52 AM »

I think most of us want to make important decisions based on facts and evidence. In these situations facts and evidence can be very circumstantial and are open to interpretation... thus deniable. I can totally understand the compunction to gain absolute clarity before making a radical decision about someone else's fidelity and therefore the potential end to a relationship. Our pwBPD place great weight on their hunches and feelings, I know as a non, on the whole I tend to look for evidence to prove that someone is doing something wrong before I run around making accusations.

"I see you online pingpong with Ex, I will be moving out until you make a firm commitment to end this relationship and show accountability to me, this is not a relationship that fits with my values"... doesn't quite have the same gravitas as "The other night when you said you were going out with Bob, I followed you and you went out with Ex, I watched you kissing, I will be moving out until you make a firm commitment to end this relationship and show accountability to me, this is not a relationship that fits with my values."

Paranoia is horrible, so are the tricks that cognitive biases such as selection bias, confirmation bias etc etc can play on your mind. I'd imagine you want to eliminate the possibility of those data biases or paranoia's so you KNOW that you are making choices on solid grounds. Gaslighting definitely doesn't help you have comfort in the facts that he provides.

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« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2019, 04:36:23 AM »

This is difficult. I pretty much agree with every word OnceRemoved just wrote above. But... I also completely see Enabler's point too.

Gaslighting changes the "rules". Gaslighting can be very damaging and destabilising and people do need outside things to prove to themselves that they're not going crazy and imagining things when subjected to it. When you're told that things are all in your head, the only way to fight against believing that can be to look for things that are objectively Out There in the world to ground yourself.

It's such an unhealthy situation (gaslighting) that it's very difficult in practice to act in healthy ways whilst inside it. Analogous to how it's highly unhealthy to be paranoid about being watched and followed and consistently looking over your shoulder, but, if you're in witness protection on the run from a gang who want to kill you, you might not be left with much option. Spying, monitoring etc are unhealthy behaviours. But Perdita is in an unhealthy situation. And, although we usually look at ourselves and our parts in things here, I think this is a case where the circumstances (being gaslighted) are the primary factor.

Best place to start unraveling this, Perdita, is here, I think:

it seems to me you have a lot of complaints about the relationship, in addition to this. what keeps you in it?
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« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2019, 06:24:34 AM »

i dont think the healthy approach to all of this is to up the ante as far as monitoring him.

its gone pretty far already, and im not sure, at this point, what it would serve.
I see it differently.  When you've been gaslighted for years, then it becomes very important to know that you are not imagining things as I've been accused of repeatedly over the years.

1. it doesnt sound like he is physically cheating. i believe you mentioned shes in a relationship. if this has been going on for six years, it likely would have played itself out.


4. perhaps most importantly, the two of you are not at all aligned when it comes to the nature of opposite sex friendships as it pertains to your relationship, and both of you have pretty blurry boundaries in a number of areas. in this case, hes increasingly leaning on dishonesty, and youre increasingly leaning on spying. neither are a way to improve your relationship, fix the circumstances/differences, they both only damage trust.
I agree, yet what do you do when the other person thinks they can carry on as they want and no matter how you approach it the result is the same - no remorse on his side?

He has never had to deal with stuff like this from me at all.  I wonder sometimes how he would feel if the shoe was on the other foot.

so why double down on this approach?

For the reasons I stated above and because of everything Enabler stated as well.

it seems to me you have a lot of complaints about the relationship, in addition to this. what keeps you in it?
What keeps any of us in relationships with BPD people?  There's no simple answer to that question that I've ever been able to find.
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« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2019, 06:26:01 AM »

Paranoia is horrible, so are the tricks that cognitive biases such as selection bias, confirmation bias etc etc can play on your mind. I'd imagine you want to eliminate the possibility of those data biases or paranoia's so you KNOW that you are making choices on solid grounds. Gaslighting definitely doesn't help you have comfort in the facts that he provides.

Enabler

Sad but true.
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« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2019, 06:31:36 AM »

The way I rationalised it is like the police investigating a criminal or the military doing surveillance on the enemy. Now I can hear people jumping up and down saying "but it's your husband, this isn't part of a healthy relationship treating them like a criminal or a war enemy!" They'd be totally right. Somewhere, somehow, trust has been lost. Trust has been lost on many levels but most importantly truth in your own reality has been lost and for me it was paramount to regain control of the facts.

There is a marked difference between attempting to establish the truth when someone is actively trying to distort the facts for you, and when there is no evidence whatsoever that what they have told you isn't anything other than the truth.

The key is avoiding starting with a conclusion and looking to prove that hypothesis. Also, avoiding cognitive bias and retesting your data set to ensure that your conclusion cant be attributable to anything else. Once you are sure... work out what you are going to do about it, and that's definitely where you can leverage the boards here for.

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« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2019, 06:36:19 AM »

What keeps any of us in relationships with BPD people?  There's no simple answer to that question that I've ever been able to find.

No simple answer, no. But there's our answers. I know mine. And it wasn't something keeping me in a relationship with a BPD person; it was a whole host of things that kept me in that particular relationship with that individual man.

I think there is a tendency for people to assume we must have some deep-rooted psychological issues to do it, or slap co-dependent labels on to us or similar. But I have found that it's really no different to what keeps anyone in any relationship: that, for us, as individuals, the good points of it outweigh the bad. And, when it stops doing that, is when we may need to consider leaving.

Maybe try looking at slightly different questions: What are the good points/aspects of the relationship? How do they weigh up against the bad ones? Do you think the scales might be tipping now?
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« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2019, 06:37:48 AM »

It's such an unhealthy situation (gaslighting) that it's very difficult in practice to act in healthy ways whilst inside it. Analogous to how it's highly unhealthy to be paranoid about being watched and followed and consistently looking over your shoulder, but, if you're in witness protection on the run from a gang who want to kill you, you might not be left with much option. Spying, monitoring etc are unhealthy behaviours. But Perdita is in an unhealthy situation. And, although we usually look at ourselves and our parts in things here, I think this is a case where the circumstances (being gaslighted) are the primary factor.

The other thing about gasligting is that even though it feels good to finally put a name to the behaviour - which in itself brings great relief - it is still a very complex thing to grasp.  Reading about it and learning more about it has been an eye opener.  Yet, I will admit this: I became aware of the term about 4-5 years ago, but only now am I starting to learn how to handle it.  
Knowing on an intellectual level what's going on  is one thing.  It takes an awfully long time to emotionally understand and come to terms with it. It's just so contrary to anything I've ever experienced before.  
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« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2019, 06:51:37 AM »

No simple answer, no. But there's our answers. I know mine. And it wasn't something keeping me in a relationship with a BPD person; it was a whole host of things that kept me in that particular relationship with that individual man.

Bnonymous, I think for a lot of people dealing with a PD partner there is also the matter of not realizing they are disordered until quite some time has gone by and we have become attached to the person by then and already invested a lot of emotion.  Sure, looking back we can all probably see the red flags that were there from the start.  Hindsight and all.  The bottom line remains that we've developed deep feelings for them by that point.

I think there is a tendency for people to assume we must have some deep-rooted psychological issues to do it, or slap co-dependent labels on to us or similar. But I have found that it's really no different to what keeps anyone in any relationship: that, for us, as individuals, the good points of it outweigh the bad. And, when it stops doing that, is when we may need to consider leaving.
I agree that those labels are slapped onto us without much thought.  I hand't been in a r/s for nearly 20 years when I became involved with him.  I was perfectly fine with being single.  So not exactly the kind of personality that needs a partner, any partner, just wanting a partner to feel whole.  We get into these relationships absolutely clueless as to the deep rooted issues of our partners.  The assumption is that this person seems perfectly "normal", has flaws like all of us, but "normal"...

Maybe try looking at slightly different questions: What are the good points/aspects of the relationship? How do they weigh up against the bad ones? Do you think the scales might be tipping now?
Those are some good questions.  I feel I will need to really sit down and quietly think about the answers.
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« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2019, 07:05:29 AM »

Something that annoyed me yesterday when I was talking to him about this ex was that he told me "I have nothing to feel bad about in my heart.  Why are you so insecure?"  That irritates me.  The blatant attempt to place blame on me by saying I am the one with the issue. 

Our relationship was a stop go one for years because he was obsessed with his ex and with another woman.  It's interfered with our lives for 6 years now.  It's unhealthy for him to stay in contact with her.

As for her, I gather she likes knowing there are options on the side if she gets bored with a partner.  My SO told me once that he believes she started dating the man she ended up marrying while she was still seeing him.  In fact, when I told him after her separation that she probably already has someone waiting in the wings, he agreed.  I read a message she send him before she left for good and in it I clearly remember her talking about her "childhood psychologist" and how she was still seeing him to help her deal with her "abandonment issues".  I think back to that and it still makes me go Uh hmm.
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« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2019, 09:21:23 AM »

I'll play Devil's Advocate here and say that you really don't know if he's cheating or not.

When I was married to my first husband, I didn't at all have a jealous or suspicious nature. He had same-sex friendships and it never occurred to me that they were more than that.

A couple of years later I happened to be at the apartment of some friends and I observed one of his girlfriends "accidentally" dropping her towel seductively as she was walking through a hallway to take a shower and smiling at him. (She had no clue that I saw her.) I put 2 and 2 together at that point.

This wasn't an isolated incident. He was very good at crafting lies to coverup his behavior and there were dozens of incidents in the years we were together. He was very good at making situations seem innocent and if I questioned him, then he labeled me as "paranoid".

When someone vehemently protests and claims their innocence and this doesn't comport with what you feel and behaviors you've observed, it's hard to know what reality is. And that can be a dizzying feeling.
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« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2019, 09:48:00 AM »

I'll play Devil's Advocate here and say that you really don't know if he's cheating or not.

Isn't that the point here Cat? She doesn't know for definite and she believes that he's contorting her reality such that she doesn't KNOW the truth. She cannot rely on him to tell her the truth so she has 2 choices... walk away and be happy that she doesn't KNOW the truth, or establish the truth with a modicum of certainty based on evidence that she can verify. She will never be able to ascertain his emotional evidence such as "I love her" but she might stand a chance of establishing practical evidence like, are they intimate with each other.

Some people may rather not know, I would rather know. In May2017 I found a receipt for a pregnancy test, it was from a pharmacy below the place where she was seeing a T at the time, directly after her session as per time stamp of the receipt. I confronted her with the receipt a month later after mulling over what to do. I think I failed when I asked her as I tee'd up a lie for her by saying "I found this, I don't think it was for you but it concerns me a lot, was it for you?"... to which she said whilst looking the other way "It was for a friend." To this day I feel bad about not believing her, but I don't, and it still wasn't enough evidence to satisfy "without reasonable doubt".

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« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2019, 11:16:44 AM »

the term "gaslighting" comes from a play, in which one of the main characters enters into a romantic relationship with the goal of obtaining her jewels. im not sure its a realistic or helpful term here. "blame shifting" fits just fine. hes making contact with an ex (we dont know if theres more to it), and hes, for the most part, denying doing so, claiming "youre just insecure". unhealthy behavior and poor character, for sure, though unfortunately not uncommon. if you believe that your partner is systematically trying to convince you that you are insane, and trying to obtain something by doing so, that seems a bigger issue than the contact.

Excerpt
it becomes very important to know that you are not imagining things as I've been accused of repeatedly over the years.

i guess the question is "to what extent". how far, how long are you willing to go in order to find proof, and of what, specifically? you say that youve been monitoring him for sixteen months. you have not yet found proof that he is physically cheating. you have found proof that he has had contact and lied about it. if you find proof that he isnt cheating, would that make you more comfortable with the contact and lying about it?

Excerpt
yet what do you do when the other person thinks they can carry on as they want and no matter how you approach it the result is the same

as Enabler said, somewhere along the way, trust has been lost. and as Bnonymous said, this is an unhealthy situation.

i would hope we could all agree that more spying is not a rehabilitative approach (or one that builds trust), and that responding to unhealthy behavior with unhealthy behavior begets more unhealthy behavior (and less trust). he justifies his, you justify yours, everyone is more entrenched in their position, and the relationship suffers. is that in your interest, or is this really about finally catching him physically cheating and then its all over?

the short answer to "what do you do" is work to get on the same page (not try to bring him to your position, and not for him to try to bring you to his). i think that the two of you differ on this in more ways than just what we are talking about here. i think you would need a more involved, bigger picture strategy than trying to resolve whether or not what hes doing extends beyond having contact with an ex and lying about it.

can you read this and share with us what stage you think your relationship is in: https://bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down
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« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2019, 11:35:13 AM »

We are born with an inner radar that tell us whether we can trust people or not. That inner radar can become flawed by growing up with family members that betray our trust and can make us more likely to seek validation from people who betray our trust like our family members. Trust is the foundation of a healthy relationship. If you can't trust him, whether he is cheating or not, is likely an indication that he is not the person for you, or possibly you are not ready to be in a relationship right now because you have trouble trusting others. What do you think? Does any of this make sense or am I way off the mark?
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« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2019, 11:44:25 AM »

Gaslighting, in this sense, can be part of a bigger picture of "coercive control"

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/mar/02/abuse-prevention-how-to-turn-off-the-gaslighters
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« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2019, 12:02:47 PM »

"coercive control"

who is trying to control whom in this situation, Bnonymous?
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« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2019, 12:07:24 PM »

who is trying to control whom in this situation, Bnonymous?

Perdita said that her partner tries to make her think she's going crazy, even telling her to see a doctor, and trying to paint her as crazy to other people. In the UK, you can be prosecuted for that and "coercive control" is the name of the crime in legislation (though there are other things that can be prosecuted under the same law/name, this one is enough by itself to count - it is a recognised form of domestic abuse).
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« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2019, 12:16:12 PM »

"youre imagining things" (his response to accusations of infidelity, not a systematic effort to convince her shes insane) is classic denial and blame shifting. the suggestion to "go see a doctor" is common place stuff, people here do it all the time. same with painting a partner as crazy to other people.

in this equation, one partner expressly believes hes entitled to have contact with other women so long as hes "not  :cursing:ing them". so he does.

one partner believes he doesnt and is going to great lengths to expose/stop it.

how can the two of them get on the same page and resolve this conflict?

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« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2019, 04:35:45 PM »

Hey Perdita, is there anything new that's going on regarding your relationship? Do you think he has he been talking to his ex lately? How are you doing?
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« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2019, 01:47:57 PM »

Thanks for asking.

He is still lying about it. Continues to claim that she is a client. Yet he refuses to let me read the messages.

This week he posted another bizarre status update on that same app.  I know it's for her. He didn't even know until this week that I've been reading those updates. Most people don't bother with them and he never did either until recently.

In a stupidly dramatic display earlier in the week he forwarded me 2 of his voice messages to her which he claims are the messages I saw on that chat app.  Lot of bs. Both messages are about work. Neither mention her by name. Her replies were not forwarded to me.  I am pretty sure he forwarded me messages to legit clients in an effort to fool me.  Why not just show me the actual chat conversation? I said nothing because it is not even worth it. He is too sick.

More and more I find myself thinking that he's a real POS. I dont think I really have any respect left for him.  I regard him now as pathetic.
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« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2019, 02:48:00 PM »

your mind seems pretty made up. what is it that you want from him, specifically? are you looking for proof that he isnt cheating? an admission that he is?
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« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2019, 03:24:24 PM »

Once removed,

I don't  even know myself anymore.  I guess I want the truth. For him to stop with the pathetic lies and making me out to be crazy.

Yesterday morning he took his young niece to breakfast to the very coffee shop his ex frequents and where he refuses to take me. Today he took his other niece there too!  I believe he did it to show his ex that he will be great with her kid.  I mean, he has not taken his nieces to breakfast before and the fact that he stretched this over 2 days instead of taking both at the same time, seems to me he wanted to be sure his ex saw him with them. 

Early tonight he said he wanted to go for a drive. I found this odd as we went for a long drive in the afternoon.  He left and I checked the chat app they talk on. Sure enough as soon as he left here she was online for nearly 20 minutes. I believe they did a call.

When he got back I asked why he took the vintage car out twice in one day. Not usual for him.  He replied that he didn't take that  car. That he took his truck.  I knew this was a lie. When I went to the kitchen his house keys were on the counter with the keys to the vintage car. His truck keys were hanging on the key hanger. I then asked why the vintage car's keys were on the counter after I had hanged it up earlier. He then turned around and said he did go with the vintage car!

When he left for that drive he said he would stop for food for us. He never did.
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Cat Familiar
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« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2019, 03:33:41 PM »

I certainly understand why you want clarity. I know how confusing it is to question oneself.

My first husband carried on multiple affairs without me being wiser. He would create a cover story for himself and sometimes these stories really didn't make a lot of sense if examined closely.

For a long time, I just took him at his word and believed whatever he said. I didn't lie or carry on a secret life so it never occurred to me that he would.

However after I started catching him in lies, which he would try and explain away, I became more suspicious. But, perhaps unfortunately, being trusting is in my nature when it comes to loved ones, so I was easily duped.

A couple of questions for you--what's with all the lying? Is that something different that he's doing, that didn't occur in the past? And knowing that he's not being truthful, how does that impact your feelings about the relationship?
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“The Four Agreements  1. Be impeccable with your word.  2. Don’t take anything personally.  3. Don’t make assumptions.  4. Always do your best. ”     ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom
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« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2019, 04:20:31 PM »

Cat Familiar,

The first real relationship I had was with a serial cheater. Multiple women. I knew about it. I swear knowing and having him be truthful about it when questioned was easier than what I am dealing with now.

Like you it is hard for me to fathom why someone would lie and lead a double life,  because that is so far removed from who I am.

To answer your question: He has always lied. I picked up on it very early on when he lied to his mom on the phone.  He was meant to have dinner at her house, but phoned and told her that he was in bed, not feeling well and that it was too cold for him to go out. Virtually at the last minute he made that call. Then he hung up and told me that we are going to go visit his brother instead. I clearly recall being taken aback. This was a lie he could so easily get caught out for.  Yet he still did it. That worried me right away about him. Little did I know how bad it was.

He lies about little things, big things, import things, completely insignificant things. Lies constantly. I have even told him a couple of months ago that he really lies a lot. He said that I was exaggerating.

The way the lies around his ex impacts my feelings about the relationship?  I now think that he would leave me at the drop of a hat if she decided that she wants a full on relationship. He told me recently that she has told him that she's moved on. I asked him why on earth she would even have to tell him that after 9 years. I got no reply.
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« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2019, 05:38:21 PM »

When there's no basis for trust in a relationship, what do you have? It's hard to believe anything.
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“The Four Agreements  1. Be impeccable with your word.  2. Don’t take anything personally.  3. Don’t make assumptions.  4. Always do your best. ”     ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom
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« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2019, 12:49:07 PM »

Well, he pulled the same thing again tonight. He left for a drive. Moment he was in the garage they were both online. After 10 minutes of that I decided to call him on the app to see what happens.  No reply. Then he called right back on the actual phone. I checked while talking to him - suddenly both were offline from the chat app during that time.

I had my suspicions before we lived together, but he kept telling me that I am crazy  and have an over active imagination.  It was easier for him to hide his lies then. Now I am under the same roof it has become harder for him. That's why the dumb ass excuses like going for a drive.
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« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2019, 12:54:01 PM »

So now you know that the statistical likelihood of him talking to his ex (and lying to you about it) is very high, what are you going to do?
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“The Four Agreements  1. Be impeccable with your word.  2. Don’t take anything personally.  3. Don’t make assumptions.  4. Always do your best. ”     ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom
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« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2019, 04:46:08 AM »

Perdita,

I can 200% empathise with your frustrations with your H just not telling you the damn truth when all the evidence over a considerable period of time points in that direction. I've found it astonishing how hard it is to prove without doubt that my W is having an affair. I really want a smoking gun, I've come close but there's always been a deniability... even the pregnancy test was 'for a friend'. I find it quite cowardice... but then bravery requires distress tollerance, and that's something she lacks because of BPD.

Cat's question is good though, I don't want to detract from that.

Enabler
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Perdita
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« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2019, 04:09:59 PM »

I don't know what I am going to do about it. 

I've been through so much hell with him over the years. It took almost 6 years for us to live together.  He's the one that wanted it yet he turned nasty the very day we moved into the new place together. I believe his contract with the ex has a lot to do with his hostility.

I never imagined moving in with him or any man ever. Was never a goal for me. He kept pushing and saying how wonderful it will be.  He put that stupid dream in my head. Then he ruined it from day 1. It's the death of that dream that is also upsetting me.

Our anniversary is today.  He knows it full well but has pretended not to. Meanwhile I spent the day watching a very steady flow of messages on the chat app ping pong back and forth between them. I watch them from a secret account so they can't see that I am also online.

I am sleeping in the guest bedroom tonight.  I didn't say why. It's no use. Worse still is that we are going out of town tomorrow and will overnight at a romantic spot I booked. Needless to say that I am not looking forward to it.

I agree, Enabler. It's very hard finding that absolute prove. I don't know how big a liar your wife is. Mine is a compulsive liar and always turns it around into me being the crazy one.
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