Feeling sad, discouraged and worried that the conflict could get worse

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hi, I have been in a relationship for almost 3 years now, with a man who has not been diagnosed with BPD, but admitted to me a few month after we were together that he suffered from fear of abandonment. He said this to me, after episodes where he had an angry outburst and flew into a rage. While he is aware of his behaviour and that it is wrong, he feels all the therapy he did, and having a therapist, he does not feel he needs more help. And when I bring it up, he gets angry and says the fact that I am putting pressure, make him even more not want to go, cause I am pressuring him when he feels he does not have to go, that he will deal with it, by himself. I dont feel he understands how scary it is for me, and how hurtful it is for me. It becomes about how I provoked him and what I did to frustrate him, and he focuses on me and what I should do. When it happened the first time, I thought ok that is it, I am not going to put up with this. It is over.  I have never experienced being so confused and perplexed at how a person can get so angry at what to me was such an exaggerated response to the situation. I was kind of shocked, I felt there is something wrong here, something not normal, that I just dont want in my life. Yet I have stayed.

He had a response only 3 weeks after we started going out, it was not anger, it was sadness, deep deep sadness, he fell into a state of withdrawal, and did not talk to me for hours. I had never experienced that ever, but I had never either met someone who I experienced “love at first sight” and it was mutual. We had been living an intense beginning, (which I think can happen with BPD people ) and I said something that really hurt him, that made him go into a downward spiral.  Just to understand me and where I am coming from, in relation to what happened that he went into a downward spiral. I have two older sons in their early 20’s ( I had them young). He has an 8 yr old son.  I know I dont want more kids.  We were out on a date, a picnic , we had only known each other 3 weeks. We were in a parc and next to us was a family and kids. So I spontaneous bring up kids, and that I dont want any more kids. That it was very difficult for me when my ex left my sons were 8 and 6 years old and I became a single mother more or less. I found it very difficult being alone raising my son.  I think my anger and hurt of that situation then came out in a statement that I said to him, that came from my ex.  I said: “that if a man wants kids with me, he will have to raise them on his own”. Well that statement floored him, he got very very hurt, he took it personally, and I was shocked that he got so upset. I was talking about myself, how I felt, but it immediately became about him, and transposed that if I were to stay with him, he would have to take care of his son, and not expect me to raise him. And that got him extremely depressed. I told this situation to a few friends after, most thought I was just affirming where I am at, and that yes, I did not want to raise someone else child and made it clear that I did not want more kids from the go. But he took it as a personal attack on not being there for him, etc etc ….


So his reaction to this situation of me being clear and maybe square or even harsh to a man who has a son, who does have shared custody with the mother of his son, one week one week. So he does have the mother of his son, who he co-parents with. But what I said triggered something in him, that sent him into that downward spiral. And he was feeling so in love with me, but after that our bubble burst, and that was a black mark on a relationship and this episode of what I said, would now always come up.

His reaction of getting so upset and staying upset for hours, cause we went back to his place and he just lay on his couch and would not talk, but he did not want me to leave. I felt so guilty for what I said, cause of how hurt he got. But while I knew ok, for some it was tackless, given he has a son, I felt I was being clear from the start that no, I was not going to be a second mother, I just could not.   I was completely perplexed and thought there was something not normal here. I felt it in my gut. I had never experienced this before. I felt he overreacted, that he was hypersensitive and I had never experienced being with someone who reacted so strongly, and got so hurt.  

He is easily offended and insulted. Now I have to admit, I was not sure I wanted to be in a relationship to start out with, and he got serious very fast. I told him, I was not sure about being serious , I needed to go slow, and just that offended him and hurt him. He got hurt, and I felt he could not see that it was not easy for me to get so serious so fast. It was very intense. I even said I found it very intense and this offended him, he got insulted.

I thought taking distance and putting my limits, saying I needed my space would help me, it did, and it caused him to get upset and he would get angry, when I did not want to see him as much. But then he would accept that he was not going to see me, and it would calm down.  I have stayed, I am attached , but I have been very uncertain, never sure I wanted to continue, from the start. As It seemed that every time I saw him, I said something to offend him insult him, there have been small criticisms of how I say something, or do not say something, every time we see each other. That has gotten better, but generally he is quite negative. Or have I just gotten used to it ? Every month there have been major emotional outbursts, of him feeling hurt , offended, that escalate into him yelling and getting very angry at me, and I get angry back, to defend myself. So that does not help.  There is stuff in me too, that I just dont feel good at times and I dont feel I can talk about it, cause I am scared of how he will respond, so I keep it inside, but this is not good, cause he senses I am upset or frustrated. And just sensing I am not well, gets him irritated and upset, and that caused a major reaction in him this monday, march 11th, that he started yelling and me just walking away, triggers his abandonnement, that then made him begin to rage, he got so angry he broke a wooden spoon and called me “une folle” a crazy woman. He calls many people crazy when they get emotional as a reaction to him.   And it is what happened this monday morning, that I decided to join this group, cause I just dont see his behaviour stopping, …For him to be triggered cause I am feeling frustrated , and that he gets upset to the point of rage, cause I am not feeling good. I was ready to get up, go take a shower and try and get out of my frustration and not impose it on him. But he got angry that he could not give me what I needed and felt I was insisting and he felt bad. We are both allowed to feel this way, but what is for me so destructive and that I have so often gotten fed up about , is his angry raging reactions

So there is a lot of conflict. There has been from the start … the smallest remark, that just seems not important,  he read into an unconscious desire, or unconscious anger that I am wanting to hurt him. He says I am not always conscious but I am hurt and dont realize I say things that hurt him, because I am frustrated or my past hurts. At times, it seems I am most of the time, trying to reassure him that what I say is not meant to hurt him. Sometimes I am just frustrated yes, but I dont yell at him, and I try to deal with it on my own. But monday am, march 11th, he felt my frustration and instead of talking about it, he raged.

I could say a lot more. But this intro is already I feel too long. Just to add, there have been at least 6 major episodes, if not more, but at least 3 that for me it was over. We took distance, we did not see each other for 3 months. There were 2 episodes which, he did grab me, and I did feel threatened and that he could get out of control, and really hurt me. But every time he rages it affects me for days, I lose a day for sure and I feel aggressed, intimidated and very hurt. And I think about the fact that one day, he could get out of control and it could go too far. I fear this. And the problem is, he is not ready to get more help. Cause he did do a lot of therapy, and knows he has this problem, but he feels he can handle it on his own, and that I have to learn how to better communicate to him, and this will help. …

also important, when I first met his ex (the mother of his son), she put her hand on my shoulder, in a consoling or pitying manner, later after one of his major raging outburst, I decided to call her, as we had been in touch through him, to pick up his son. I have a cell and he does not. So he knew she and I were in touch, just to coordinate pick ups and drop offs. it was then she told me, that when it ended, she ended it, that she got help to how to co-parent with him and that she felt that for sure he had borderline and narcissistic traits but has never been officially diagnosed. And I brought up very gently , in an indirect way, by mentioned that I did research and found when I typed in "abandonment issues" that borderline came up. I asked what he thought of this. he got defensive and said, oh you think I am borderline. I responsded no, to not cause an argument, but I said it was interesting to read about it. He said that it was an American psychology approach or theory that he did not agree with, putting labels like that. but then he said, that he went out with a woman, before his ex, that he said was borderline, but we did not talk about it further.

[DSFB]

Hi, I have been in a relationship for almost 3 years now, with a man who has not been diagnosed with BPD, but admitted to me a few month after we were together that he suffered from fear of abandonment. He said this to me, after episodes where he had an angry outburst and flew into a rage. While he is aware of his behaviour and that it is wrong, he feels all the therapy he did, and having a therapist, he does not feel he needs more help. And when I bring it up, he gets angry and says the fact that I am putting pressure, make him even more not want to go, cause I am pressuring him when he feels he does not have to go, that he will deal with it, by himself. I dont feel he understands how scary it is for me, and how hurtful it is for me. It becomes about how I provoked him and what I did to frustrate him, and he focuses on me and what I should do. When it happened the first time, I thought ok that is it, I am not going to put up with this. It is over.  I have never experienced being so confused and perplexed at how a person can get so angry at what to me was such an exaggerated response to the situation. I was kind of shocked, I felt there is something wrong here, something not normal, that I just dont want in my life. Yet I have stayed.

He had a response only 3 weeks after we started going out, it was not anger, it was sadness, deep deep sadness, he fell into a state of withdrawal, and did not talk to me for hours. I had never experienced that ever, but I had never either met someone who I experienced “love at first sight” and it was mutual. We had been living an intense beginning, (which I think can happen with BPD people ) and I said something that really hurt him, that made him go into a downward spiral.  Just to understand me and where I am coming from, in relation to what happened that he went into a downward spiral. I have two older sons in their early 20’s ( I had them young). He has an 8 yr old son.  I know I dont want more kids.  We were out on a date, a picnic , we had only known each other 3 weeks. We were in a parc and next to us was a family and kids. So I spontaneous bring up kids, and that I dont want any more kids. That it was very difficult for me when my ex left my sons were 8 and 6 years old and I became a single mother more or less. I found it very difficult being alone raising my son.  I think my anger and hurt of that situation then came out in a statement that I said to him, that came from my ex.  I said: “that if a man wants kids with me, he will have to raise them on his own”. Well that statement floored him, he got very very hurt, he took it personally, and I was shocked that he got so upset. I was talking about myself, how I felt, but it immediately became about him, and transposed that if I were to stay with him, he would have to take care of his son, and not expect me to raise him. And that got him extremely depressed. I told this situation to a few friends after, most thought I was just affirming where I am at, and that yes, I did not want to raise someone else child and made it clear that I did not want more kids from the go. But he took it as a personal attack on not being there for him, etc etc ….


So his reaction to this situation of me being clear and maybe square or even harsh to a man who has a son, who does have shared custody with the mother of his son, one week one week. So he does have the mother of his son, who he co-parents with. But what I said triggered something in him, that sent him into that downward spiral. And he was feeling so in love with me, but after that our bubble burst, and that was a black mark on a relationship and this episode of what I said, would now always come up.

His reaction of getting so upset and staying upset for hours, cause we went back to his place and he just lay on his couch and would not talk, but he did not want me to leave. I felt so guilty for what I said, cause of how hurt he got. But while I knew ok, for some it was tackless, given he has a son, I felt I was being clear from the start that no, I was not going to be a second mother, I just could not.   I was completely perplexed and thought there was something not normal here. I felt it in my gut. I had never experienced this before. I felt he overreacted, that he was hypersensitive and I had never experienced being with someone who reacted so strongly, and got so hurt.  

He is easily offended and insulted. Now I have to admit, I was not sure I wanted to be in a relationship to start out with, and he got serious very fast. I told him, I was not sure about being serious , I needed to go slow, and just that offended him and hurt him. He got hurt, and I felt he could not see that it was not easy for me to get so serious so fast. It was very intense. I even said I found it very intense and this offended him, he got insulted.

I thought taking distance and putting my limits, saying I needed my space would help me, it did, and it caused him to get upset and he would get angry, when I did not want to see him as much. But then he would accept that he was not going to see me, and it would calm down.  I have stayed, I am attached , but I have been very uncertain, never sure I wanted to continue, from the start. As It seemed that every time I saw him, I said something to offend him insult him, there have been small criticisms of how I say something, or do not say something, every time we see each other. That has gotten better, but generally he is quite negative. Or have I just gotten used to it ? Every month there have been major emotional outbursts, of him feeling hurt , offended, that escalate into him yelling and getting very angry at me, and I get angry back, to defend myself. So that does not help.  There is stuff in me too, that I just dont feel good at times and I dont feel I can talk about it, cause I am scared of how he will respond, so I keep it inside, but this is not good, cause he senses I am upset or frustrated. And just sensing I am not well, gets him irritated and upset, and that caused a major reaction in him this monday, march 11th, that he started yelling and me just walking away, triggers his abandonnement, that then made him begin to rage, he got so angry he broke a wooden spoon and called me “une folle” a crazy woman. He calls many people crazy when they get emotional as a reaction to him.   And it is what happened this monday morning, that I decided to join this group, cause I just dont see his behaviour stopping, …For him to be triggered cause I am feeling frustrated , and that he gets upset to the point of rage, cause I am not feeling good. I was ready to get up, go take a shower and try and get out of my frustration and not impose it on him. But he got angry that he could not give me what I needed and felt I was insisting and he felt bad. We are both allowed to feel this way, but what is for me so destructive and that I have so often gotten fed up about , is his angry raging reactions

So there is a lot of conflict. There has been from the start … the smallest remark, that just seems not important,  he read into an unconscious desire, or unconscious anger that I am wanting to hurt him. He says I am not always conscious but I am hurt and dont realize I say things that hurt him, because I am frustrated or my past hurts. At times, it seems I am most of the time, trying to reassure him that what I say is not meant to hurt him. Sometimes I am just frustrated yes, but I dont yell at him, and I try to deal with it on my own. But monday am, march 11th, he felt my frustration and instead of talking about it, he raged.

I could say a lot more. But this intro is already I feel too long. Just to add, there have been at least 6 major episodes, if not more, but at least 3 that for me it was over. We took distance, we did not see each other for 3 months. There were 2 episodes which, he did grab me, and I did feel threatened and that he could get out of control, and really hurt me. But every time he rages it affects me for days, I lose a day for sure and I feel aggressed, intimidated and very hurt. And I think about the fact that one day, he could get out of control and it could go too far. I fear this. And the problem is, he is not ready to get more help. Cause he did do a lot of therapy, and knows he has this problem, but he feels he can handle it on his own, and that I have to learn how to better communicate to him, and this will help. …

also important, when I first met his ex (the mother of his son), she put her hand on my shoulder, in a consoling or pitying manner, later after one of his major raging outburst, I decided to call her, as we had been in touch through him, to pick up his son. I have a cell and he does not. So he knew she and I were in touch, just to coordinate pick ups and drop offs. it was then she told me, that when it ended, she ended it, that she got help to how to co-parent with him and that she felt that for sure he had borderline and narcissistic traits but has never been officially diagnosed. And I brought up very gently , in an indirect way, by mentioned that I did research and found when I typed in "abandonment issues" that borderline came up. I asked what he thought of this. he got defensive and said, oh you think I am borderline. I responsded no, to not cause an argument, but I said it was interesting to read about it. He said that it was an American psychology approach or theory that he did not agree with, putting labels like that. but then he said, that he went out with a woman, before his ex, that he said was borderline, but we did not talk about it further.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Ozzie101]

Hello DSFB! Welcome to the BPD family!

I'm so sorry for what brought you here but I'm very glad you found us.

It sounds like you have a lot going on. I can definitely understand where you're coming from. My H (also undiagnosed) has major abandonment issues as well. And I can definitely relate to much of what you said. Flying into a rage over seemingly small things. Blaming me for everything that goes wrong. The pouting. The rages. My own walking on eggshells to try to avoid setting him off (that doesn't work, by the way).

You mentioned an incident Monday morning. Can you explain, beginning to end, a little more about what happened and what your responses to him were? That can help us get a better idea of the dynamic.

The thing that concerns me most is your comments that you don't always feel safe. If your instincts are raising big   , it's important to listen to those.

I was, as I said, in a similar situation and I talked to a DV counselor. She gave me some tips to use when he was raging and I felt unsafe. A safety plan. For instance, having keys, phone and purse easily and quickly accessible. Never getting blocked into a kitchen or bathroom. Knowing a way to the exit. It may seem a little dramatic (it did to me at the time), but it's really valuable information. I'd be happy to share more with you if you'd like.

We also have a PDF here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=334824.0
It's long, but has good information.

Please stay safe and keep posting! We want to help!

[DSFB]

Hello Ozzie,

I was glad to get your reply. I do not talk about his raging and angry outburst to friends. I did say to a friend when recounting monday am, that he got very angry and we had a big conflict "dispute" again.

But here is what happened monday am, here is also what i know i was living in me, that is very difficult for me, .. but is a combination of bad timing, and my unfulfilled desire and his easily being triggered by how I feel, what I say or do.

( Just to note my reactions, how I feel, what I say or do - body language or words that I am not even aware of sometimes, his reaction or overreactions, getting angry,  I find super hard, cause he is so sensitive, he will respond to a frustration I am living that I am not completely in touch with , yet. It is like he feels it before I do )

I am learning and working how to stay calm, when I feel he is overreacting, being very sensitive about something I said, (that I could not have predicted), and even cause it help me know that he has recognized when he is overly susceptible. He knows he has exaggerated responses, he knows he gets susceptible and becomes very emotional and cant let go of something I said . But sadly he realizes this after all the drama.

So I had frustration monday morning that had started when we stayed out at a bar later than I would have liked on saturday night. He wanted to stay out longer, even though he knew I was tired. Granted that we stayed in on wednesday and friday and he did that for me. I knew that, and even though I did not feel like going to a bar on sat night, I did it for him, I think he knew that too. He likes to go out on weekends and he gets drunk on 3 or 4 beers. Cause it is only one day a week, sometimes I have 2 beers, that is all it takes to get me drunk. During the week, sometimes he has one or two beers, but sometimes he goes without drinking beer for a week or two, it is not consistant, but weekends are consistent.

So he had finished his 3rd beer, Saturday night, and I though I would express that I would like to go. All I had to say was, I am tired and I would like to go, and he got really upset, he got angry, that I had ruined the evening, and that he was going to suggest we leave too cause he was tired, but the fact that I mentioned it, bothered him, that I was not thinking of him, and that I was putting pressure on, and he just got really upset. And now cause I said I wanted to leave, he felt ___y and he just did not want to go. He sat there angry and upset. I stayed very calm and listened and told him I understood his feeling. And he brought up that he stayed in for me on wed and friday and that he was happy that we went out on sat and that he just wished I could have not said anything , so I said I understood and appreciated yes that we stayed in wed and friday, … and told him ok lets stay, it is fine, yes I was tired, but I made an effort for him, cause I felt he had made an effort for me. This calmed him down, he had another beer, so that is 4 beers. So yes he was drunk afterwards. All ended well, and we went back to his place. But I was frustrated, and I kept it under check, cause I did not feel he had to get so upset that I express I am tired and wanted to leave, especially that he was thinking of it too. This to me makes no sense, and please give me feedback on this behaviour. I just wanted to express that I would like to go. So I should not do that ? Or I should not have done it in the context that this night of going out was for him, so I should just grin and bear that I am tired ?  That is my answer to myself, and while I was able to stay calm, I was still frustrated.

Another reason I was frustrated, I have a longing to just stay in , naked with him under the covers , not just sex, but foreplay and being close, connecting, and massage. Yes this has happened, but it has been a while, and these magical moments I know are hard to plan with the feeling is there, he and I have talked about it. But just a little cause he is really shy an uncomfortable talking about this.   But when he drinks 4 beers, he is hung over the next day and tired. So forget fulfilling my longing of having hours of physical sensual intimacy. And even so, there is a limit too with him, he does not desire this like I do. No. I have more desire for him than he does for me. He says this is not true that he is tired. He says he is tired. But we cant really talk about this, he finds it difficult to talk about this. And he says he gives me as much as he can.  Sometimes I think that maybe he is consuming porn and this stops his desire or something is going on there. But I am not sure. I dont really understand….

There are facts though that contribute to his tiredness, just his personality, the demands of writing and important here that every other week he has his son. He is a filmmaker and he works at home and he is working on a script and so his son comes home for lunch and then the evening he has supper and lunchs to think about. So the week he has his son ( who I mentioned is 8 yrs old) he is running, up at 7am and then he has a few hours in the am and afternoon to write. He is very disciplined and I admire him. But he is very tired that week and goes to bed by 10pm. So I understand his being tired. I live an hour and half away from them. I am very busy, I run my own organization and am an artist too, so I see him on the weekend or I am there sometimes once during the week, when I can, and help him.

But there is the fact that I like to be caressed and he has less of this need, or it does not frustrate him. Maybe the fact that he is close to his son and they cuddle a lot. His son is very cuddly. They are very close. He son is a wise little soul , who is very sweat. He told me his son was born smiling , and he is a sweet loving child. His son has seen his father get angry, with other people, as have I. So his son knows his father has a temper, and his son knows that his father and I have had big conflicts….But I can get into that another time…

To get back to monday march 11ths. Yes I was living this frustration for a desire for greater and longer periods of physical sensual intimacy (not just sex, but of course better sex, with just being able to spend more time naked under the sheets together). And this is very hard to talk about. He is also shy about talking about this, and would rather just address it in bed, without words, he told me, cause we were able to talk about it yesterday a little but not a lot cause he gets uncomfortable.… But I just dont feel he desires to spend long periods in bed like this. We have never really done this, we have not taken it further. And I would like to. And it is hard to find the time, and it is my desire not his, or it him not as much as me. Yes he likes to cuddle and have those moments but not as much as me. He is hypersensitive to touch, smell, taste, texture, so even sometimes he says my skin smell like the laundry detergent of my clothes and he cant kiss my body cause of that… so it is not simple. …

And I tried to tell him, that it is hard to find the time. He says that he does not want to plan it, cause it takes the magic out of it, but then how do you make time for this. ? this adds to my disappointment and frustration. Meanwhile rationally , am I asking too much ? I spoke to girlfriends they think maybe yes, …but to get back to, monday am, and his reaction outburst…

Ok so all that was going on in me, and has been for probably a year now, with questioning the validity of my desire and trying to accept what is not happening. So on sat night and sunday in the day, yes I had frustration underlying, but we still had a nice time… that underlying frustration built up to monday am outburst. Sat night he had 4 beers, I was tired and wanted to get back to his place, cause ya, I just wanted to have time to be close with him too. Cause even if I am tired, being close physical, give me energy. … (actually I should tell him that)… And then I knew, from past experience that sunday forget it, he will be hung over and tired, and that is what happened. So by monday am, I was not feeling great

What happened, I tried to get close, before getting up, we both had our work schedules, so it was not good timing. I just asked him to kiss me in the neck, and he gave me a quick peck, obviously he was not in the mood, so my frustration continued and got worse. So I thought ok, this is not going to happen, I thought, I will just get up and take a shower and work to control myself. But he sensed it and he got really exasperated and hurt, cause  he said I said, those were not the kind of kisses I needed. I dont remember saying that, but when he told me that I said that, then of course, I could see after that that is hurtful to him and I showed compassion to him for having said that, yesterday when we talked.  And I was able to validate his feelings afterward. But that is what got him angry and his anger added to my frustration I had already, so I was exasperated, and from there it escalated. I did not yell, but I was stern in my responses, severe he says, and that hurts him too. So he got dressed and said he was going to a café to work. I got upset and said that I found him provoking and I felt hurt that he was just going to leave, just like that. I was now feeling very hurt by every thing.  Then things escalated, I tried to talk about my needs for more closeness, but of course it was not the time. I cant even remember how it got to the point that he yelled and broke the wooden spoon. But I had to repeat and repeat “stop yelling” he would not stop yelling in my face, and that is what scared me. Then I kept saying time out time out and he still would not stop, then I yelled at him “get out of the kitchen” get out, cause I felt cornered and there was a knock at the door, it was the landlord’s girlfriend , they live below and she said , could you think of the neighbours and keep it down. So I dont know if it was me saying get out, or the knock on the door, that he went in the other room.
Afterward, he was upset that I gave him an order and told him to get out and he wanted me to apologize. I told him I was not going to apologize, I was defending myself, and that he scared me and was intimidating , … I find that is insane, to ask me to apologize, he does not see that he is going insane raging and menacing, that is what I find is scary.

[Ozzie101]

That definitely sounds like a scary situation. I've been there. In my case, I pretty much had to just let him run himself out. I was, fortunately, able to keep my cool. Reacting in anger often just escalates the situation.

From what you're saying, you want and need more physical intimacy. He's not willing or not able (or both) to provide that. That leads to frustration for you and rage for him. Is that right?

One thing I've learned: in dealing with a pwBPD, what they seem to be upset about is often not what they're really upset about.

He may have felt guilt for wanting to go out and keeping you out when you were tired and didn't really want to be there. Or guilt from not being able to give you what you need and want physically. pwBPD tend to have a VERY strong sense of guilt and shame.

They also tend to be very in-tune to others' emotions and can pick up on things many people couldn't or wouldn't. That can make emotional situations that much more fraught.

My guess would be, he's picking up on your frustration, feels guilt and shame from it, and lashes out in the only way he knows how.

In situations like this, it's very important to stay safe and do what you can to keep the situation from blowing up even farther. There are a lot of tools on this site that can help with that. Did you look at the DV protocol I linked?

If you had to replay Monday morning, would you do anything differently?

[DSFB]

Is this the link https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=334824.0   i tried it,  but  i dont see the pdf ?

I will think about how i would replay monday and get back to you.

your reply was helpful , about his guilt and shame, and how he is sensitive and picks up on my emotions , yes.

[Ozzie101]

Hmm. Not sure why it didn't work. I'll look into that. In the meantime, keep in mind the tips I shared earlier.

Also, you might want to take a look at this lesson on ending conflict:
https://bpdfamily.com/content/ending-conflict

The tools discussed there can be very helpful.

Edited:
Check out these workshop threads:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=84942.0

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61403.0

There's a lot there to sort through, I know, but you may find some useful information there. Let us know what you think!

[once removed]

Meanwhile rationally , am I asking too much ? I spoke to girlfriends they think maybe yes

it sounds like you and he have different desires, and possibly different drives. this is not uncommon, in fact it was the other way around in my relationship.

men do not respond very well to pressure. and the more we associate intimacy with pressure, the more we tend to avoid it. we tend to feel most comfortable when we are generally leading that kind of thing.

regarding intimacy, what are his likes and dislikes? what sorts of things does he initiate?

[DSFB]

he actually said this, that it created pressure on him, when i said what i would like. and since then yes it seems like he is avoiding. He said he does not like to talk about it, he rather it happen in the bed, without words, through body language. but i dont find that always easy, i would like to talk about

I am not sure what his dislike are. He seems to have trouble just talking about physical intimacy and even hearing what i would like. he said he feels uncomfortable and he gets anxious. A dislike was, in the beginning he had a hard time with me taking the lead, he was not used to it. I was not even aware that this could be a problem. he would say to me, what are you doing, at first. I was not really aware i was intiating, I was just really attracted to him and acted.  i guess i do initiate more than him, and most of the time now he let's this happen. But is it possible he dislike it ? or it affects giving him space to initiate ?

as for likes, well he likes having sex, he"ll initiate direct hand to genital, genital to genital, fondling. And  yes, he does like and prefer to take the lead.

yesterday when we spoke, i did talk about massage. but that is me, i really feel it does not interest him, by the tone of his voice. cause i would like to be touched, caressed everywhere, legs, arms, all over. that is not something he has ever initiated, so a dislike?

[DSFB]

thank you for the links. yes they worked. yes i do find it useful. It is has already been supportive and helped me, to just write these few post and get your responses. thanks for your support

[DSFB]

Hello,

in response to what you wrote Ozzie

"From what you're saying, you want and need more physical intimacy. He's not willing or not able (or both) to provide that. That leads to frustration for you and rage for him. Is that right?"

Yes about my need for more physical intimacy, but this does not lead to rage all the time. It is not the first time i live frustration, we have been able to solve it at times. But since a 2 months or so, i have finally come to express some like about what i would like, he knows, but I think it has put too much pressur on him... so mon march 11 was the first time he raged as a result of my frustration.

How would i replay monday differently

Knowing now that he feels my frustration, he feels I am not happy,  Mon march 11 made me realize very strongly, or cleary, how he senses emotions, my emotions so strongly in a way that no one I have ever known senses, or if they do or did, they don’t say anything, or others have definitely not reacted with such great anger and frustration as he. Or the response has been avoidance, ignoring me, or minimizing what i feel. or if i dont say anything, they ignore it.  I think of the father of my sons. My ex, he was just not there, he would not interact, he would not respond. He was highly avoidant. With my present partner, who again has not been diagnosed with BPD but as i explained already, shows signs...call him H,... he responds quickly and strongly.

So, again, knowing very clearly he will feel a frustration in me and this could trigger him. I will try and manage it better and discuss my frustration with him at another time.  it is very difficult though to live this frustration for me

As for how his rages get so scary. The last one was dec 26th, and minor outbursts inbetween that did not escalate, .. yes i will read more on the tools... but it is so exhausting, hurtful and completely draining, ... i do want to do everything i can, to help stop this. ... but he still feels he can deal with it on his own, his part, cause he knows how he gets... and it is this, i wish he would get some support. .. but i cant say anything... he is very firm and gets impatient and upset, not always to the point of anger, but he does not want to be told what to do, he will decide what he needs, no one will tell him. .. so it is even how to make a suggestion, is not easy, i want to learn how. even a suggestion can create pressure that he cant take

[DSFB]

hoping to hear back from both of you, once removed and Ozzie. thank you.

[Ozzie101]

I'm sorry it took me a while to respond! I didn't have access to the web for a couple of days.

When emotions are heightened, that's generally not the best time to have serious emotional discussions. Much better to wait for a calm, happy time. That's not easy, though. I was always afraid to start conversations with my H for fear he would switch into a dysregulation.

he feels I am not happy

Are you? (Intimacy frustration aside.)

And you might want to also give this a look. It talks about getting a pwBPD into therapy. Many are like your H and refuse to go, or deny there's a problem. Let us know what you think!

https://bpdfamily.com/content/how-to-get-borderline-into-therapy

The fact is, you can't really force someone into therapy. Well, you can, maybe, but it won't be truly effective until they want it.

Have you tried therapy yourself? Sometimes talking things through with a neutral professional can be very helpful in sorting through your own emotions. You're in a very frustrating situation, I know.

[DSFB]

yes i did look at that link last week, "how to get borderline into therapy" it was helpful. He told me and his ex told me, he has done a lot of therapy before me. So he is aware of his fear of abandonment, and that he can have exaggerated responses and be very susceptible, but it does not change the fact that he still act this way. Maybe less than before... but yes, there will work on this still, cause I wish he would go see his therapist, cause he does see him when he needs to. He told the therapist he talks about me and us.

As for me, i did therapy for about a year. I had wanted to do therapy before i met him, cause i felt i had issues related to my ex, and that i was not sure i wanted to be in a couple, cause i felt i had found a peace in myself and felt a wellness in my solitude and that i was at a good place in my life. But i felt too, that i wanted to share with another and desired too to live intimacy. But it happened so fast with him, it was scary. A lot of stuff came out, he triggered stuff in me, i realized stuff about myself through him, i realized while he had issue and traits of possible mental illness, I too had unresolved issues with intimacy, childhood and my ex. This got worked out quite a bit in therapy for me and with him. I am not in therapy anymore, cause i cant afford it, but from what i have learned try and not be defensive and listen more, and realize what belongs to me and has to do with me, and my expectations, needs and desires.

I know my happiness is  my responsability and taking care of myself and knowing when i need to do that and saying for ex, ok today or tomorrow i need to do this "x, y, z" , so i have to be in my studio for a few days. And he respects that, if i am clear.  I would say i think that is "setting limits and boundaries" ?  anyway it is taking the time i need for me, that i need to do, to check in with myself, take care of myself, feel that wholeness and peace that i know and have found being single. When i was single i did not have to consider another, and although i dated and went out with a few men and was with one man for a year, they were not serious relationships, like with him. I have always been very independent, and i dont think i have ever learnt how to be in a relationship, till now. With the relationship with the man i was with for a year, i ended it, i was not in-love with him, it just felt wrong completely in my gut. With him, i felt i fell in love, it was fireworks (now i know they say it can be like that with borderline, but i did not know about BPD, when i met him, anyway, not sure if that discounts what i feel anyway ?) And those fireworks, can still be there.

Part of my frustration with intimacy, is maybe wanting the fireworks to continue and wanting or expecting, despite being aware of this, emotionally sometimes i just want and desire, and it is a kind of stuborness too, but it is cause i did not get to express it for all the weekend we were together, before the monday march 11th, the reason i wrote my first post and joined BPD family. but since we talked about it , so far, it is better and i am not so "idealistic" about fulfilling my want, when the timing is not good. And he knows know what i want and he is willing to work on it. with me and he aggreeing there is too a magic in how it happens and it is not like you can just say, I want this , this, this, like ordering food in a restaurent.

So, right now things are good. but i still worry that in a month or i dont know when something could trigger him. And for me, i have work to do, of knowing when i am frustrated and how i am meeting my own needs and maybe i say to myself, be appreciative when he is meeting my needs. he said that he felt sometimes i wanting more and more, and he felt he was giving me as much as he could. So i register that too. So we shall see i guess. One thing i have learnt a lot being with him, of how to communicate and how to be in an intimate relationship and i still have so much to learn. and ok again, it would be a lot easier if he did not have outbursts and the times he raged, that is why i am here online..., meanwhile the contradiction is how he is so sensitive and picks up on my emotions and makes me see myself, i love him very much for his fine abilities of being so in touch at times with my emotions and his own, and his natural way of just being like this, this creates connection and intimacy.

[Ozzie101]

It sounds like you're doing a lot of good work. You're paying attention to your needs and practicing self-care. You're setting boundaries. You're working on communication. All of those are very good steps!

A really key part of any relationship is communication -- of genuinely listening to each other and compromising, working together to find solutions. If you can keep that up and make it a priority, it can make a world of difference. All relationships are hard, not just ones involving BPD. The BPD just adds a layer of complexity on top.

One thing I found was that in taking tiny steps, big things can happen. I was getting closed off from my H. At the advice of members here, I started doing little things, like giving him an extra hug, sitting closer on the couch, squeezing his arm as I walked by. And, lately, as we've been working on the relationship, he's been getting up with me when I get up to get ready for work -- instead of sleeping in as he used to do (he goes to work later). Those little things have made a huge difference and we're now working to build a stronger foundation.

[DSFB]

thanks for your reply Ozzie. it is encouraging.

I wrote this to add to what i wrote and was about to send, when you replied.

I wrote : I should maybe start a new post. I am no longer feeling sad and discouraged. things are better. but i still have a worry about there being conflict. I dont think it will get worse for now, but i am not sure. I think time will tell, if the outbursts get less and less.

I have hope, as i have had in the past with him 2 1/2 years with him, that is why i am still here. But something is a bit different, since march 11th, in terms of excepting the limits of what he can give in physical intimacy when the timing is not right. So i am believing in it getting better, and that includes how i respond to him, with always first validating his emotions first, not being defensive, listening, and showing him i understand, by doing this, he calms down right away, or almost right away, with some repetition of that process of validation, necessary sometimes.

[Ozzie101]

Starting a new thread is a good idea. Clean start.

Communication tools are definitely things we can help with. They really can make a world of difference in a relationship. You can't control what he does (or doesn't do) but if you practice proper communication (don't JADE, don't invalidate), you can move things into much healthier territory. The members here have a lot of experience with all the things you talked about.

[DSFB]

thanks so much for your support. writing here and getting your replies is very supportive and helpful. I am so glad to have this.