Strange behaviour

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

So ye, I said I would write down some of my experiences where my wife could not see my point of view. I'll also chuck in some weird behaviour and things she used to say.

She used to message other people online. Maybe once every couple of years I caught her doing it, she probably did it more. The last couple of years she was doing it a lot. I used to go to work and she would lock herself in our bedroom with her MacBook. My daughter told me she could hear her skyping people. So there was definitely video "dates" and my daughter also found pictures she had taken of herself.

She flat out denies this is cheating, she denies it to this day. It is crystal clear she deems it appropriate because I didn't show her any attention even though she withheld sex. She will never admit this.

She thought it was unreasonable that I should visit family, she hated it and would phone me if I was gone too long for her liking. I never had an issue with her visiting her family, in fact I encouraged it because she never really wanted to. Her sister for example used to invite her round every week. Sometimes she would go but not very often, she would often accuse her sister of never bothering with her? She also told me many times that my family just use me.

She will not do anything for anybody unless she gets something in return. I used to say things like your sisters a bit down hinting at her to I dunno, call her. She would say something like, it's her own fault. I would tell her family is important and she would say not mine, they are assholes. You wouldn't believe the amount they have done for her, again we do not agree.

One of the biggest things is the kids. I treat them all the same but she only gives attention to the youngest. She will go out and buy him clothes etc and give these things to him in front of the others. I would say what about the others? Her reply, why are you always having a go? If the kids asked she would tell them to f** off. This would end in an argument with her in tears saying, I don't need this right now followed by a few days in bed being "ill". Obviously I ran round after her.

Lying, I am not a liar she would say. We never saw eye to eye on that either but I'm telling you, she lies.

Remember veruca salt? I want a golden egg now daddy! She would get frustrated when she couldn't find something sayings things like, where is it? Followed by her sitting on the bed crying. I don't know why but the last time I saw this I just burst out laughing. She slapped me that day, no more laughing from me.

If I ever needed to make an important call she would stand over me telling me, tell them this, tell them that. She would get extremely angry on the phone if she couldn't get her own way she would shout and cry, this is why I took over making calls like this. It got so bad I would go out to make a call. I would sit her down and tell her to calm down and explain to her there was no need to get so upset.

She thought everybody fancied me. She didn't like girls talking to me at all. I remember once we were out and I went outside for a smoke and there was a girl outside my cousin knows. She instantly said hi and we were chatting away, how's work that kinda stuff. Then she says, is that your wife? I turned round and she was looking out the window at me, she looked psychopathic. Me being me said, I got to go. I went inside and she's like, who the f** is that sl*g? I'm like oh crap. She didn't let go of that for a long while. She started a job (one of many) about a year later and that girl worked there. I thought ffs, here we go. She made this girl her best friend?

Anyway, I could talk about this kind of stuff all day

[Longterm]

So ye, I said I would write down some of my experiences where my wife could not see my point of view. I'll also chuck in some weird behaviour and things she used to say.

She used to message other people online. Maybe once every couple of years I caught her doing it, she probably did it more. The last couple of years she was doing it a lot. I used to go to work and she would lock herself in our bedroom with her MacBook. My daughter told me she could hear her skyping people. So there was definitely video "dates" and my daughter also found pictures she had taken of herself.

She flat out denies this is cheating, she denies it to this day. It is crystal clear she deems it appropriate because I didn't show her any attention even though she withheld sex. She will never admit this.

She thought it was unreasonable that I should visit family, she hated it and would phone me if I was gone too long for her liking. I never had an issue with her visiting her family, in fact I encouraged it because she never really wanted to. Her sister for example used to invite her round every week. Sometimes she would go but not very often, she would often accuse her sister of never bothering with her? She also told me many times that my family just use me.

She will not do anything for anybody unless she gets something in return. I used to say things like your sisters a bit down hinting at her to I dunno, call her. She would say something like, it's her own fault. I would tell her family is important and she would say not mine, they are assholes. You wouldn't believe the amount they have done for her, again we do not agree.

One of the biggest things is the kids. I treat them all the same but she only gives attention to the youngest. She will go out and buy him clothes etc and give these things to him in front of the others. I would say what about the others? Her reply, why are you always having a go? If the kids asked she would tell them to f** off. This would end in an argument with her in tears saying, I don't need this right now followed by a few days in bed being "ill". Obviously I ran round after her.

Lying, I am not a liar she would say. We never saw eye to eye on that either but I'm telling you, she lies.

Remember veruca salt? I want a golden egg now daddy! She would get frustrated when she couldn't find something sayings things like, where is it? Followed by her sitting on the bed crying. I don't know why but the last time I saw this I just burst out laughing. She slapped me that day, no more laughing from me.

If I ever needed to make an important call she would stand over me telling me, tell them this, tell them that. She would get extremely angry on the phone if she couldn't get her own way she would shout and cry, this is why I took over making calls like this. It got so bad I would go out to make a call. I would sit her down and tell her to calm down and explain to her there was no need to get so upset.

She thought everybody fancied me. She didn't like girls talking to me at all. I remember once we were out and I went outside for a smoke and there was a girl outside my cousin knows. She instantly said hi and we were chatting away, how's work that kinda stuff. Then she says, is that your wife? I turned round and she was looking out the window at me, she looked psychopathic. Me being me said, I got to go. I went inside and she's like, who the f** is that sl*g? I'm like oh crap. She didn't let go of that for a long while. She started a job (one of many) about a year later and that girl worked there. I thought ffs, here we go. She made this girl her best friend?

Anyway, I could talk about this kind of stuff all day

[Longterm]

Another one I meant to mention.

I had my friend over once and we are having a few beers. I look at my wife and she's staring at His crotch and smiling away. I looked at her and so did my friend then we looked at each other. I said what are you doing? She just said nothing. When he left I confronted her and said what the heck is that about. She said, he's ****** husband, I don't look at him like that. I said you just did and it's wrong, her reply, well if you would show me some attention? She hated his wife. She kicked him out and moved a new guy in almost immediately and told him the kids weren't his. This woman is diagnosed bipolar. The things my wife said about her, then she did the same?

I guy I used to work with. We were out and about one afternoon and she told me to bring him round her sisters. She was literally all over him, stroking his hair. I have never been so embarrassed. I told her the day after it was wrong, she told me it wasn't like that but it was.
A few weeks later he was round our house, she was holding him on the arm and smacked his rear end. Again it's not like that.
My friend found it really weird and told me she did smack his backside, she tried to tell me I must be confused.
She talked bad about me to this guy too and at one point he said, you don't deserve a girl like her?
He changed his tune when he witnessed her talk to our daughter like crap. A long story but she didn't know he heard her.
We are still good friends and he has helped me talk through a lot of stuff. He had a go at me one day and asked why I keep making excuses up for her behaviour. I never realised I was doing it.

I could go on

[JNChell]

Hi, Longterm. It’s good that you’re posting. I read your last thread while I was on my lunch break. Not enough time to post and eat. You did, however, get some sage advice and great points met. I’m glad that you’re bringing the facts of the matter  before making a quick decision.

She used to message other people online. Maybe once every couple of years I caught her doing it, she probably did it more. The last couple of years she was doing it a lot. I used to go to work and she would lock herself in our bedroom with her MacBook.

She has a pattern and doesn’t see the need to get help. Also, it sounds like she is a very entitled person. She sets the bar and makes the rules.

My daughter told me she could hear her skyping people. So there was definitely video "dates" and my daughter also found pictures she had taken of herself.

This is bad. How much is your daughter involved in the “in between” by her mother and yourself? Did your daughter come to you freely to tell you this, or did it come up in conversation?

She thought it was unreasonable that I should visit family, she hated it and would phone me if I was gone too long for her liking.

How do you feel about this? You know her best. Is she likely to change her feelings on this? Will her actions match her words with regularity at some point?

If the kids asked she would tell them to f** off.

She’s verbally and emotionally abusive to the kids. Are you familiar with the  Golden Child and Scapegoat?

I think that it’s important to dig into and start to try to recognize and connect with your feelings in relation to what you’re stating. Our personal feelings and emotions can really take us for a ride if we let them run unbridled. I know because I’ve been there. Can you pick a couple of things that you’ve stated, or all of them if you’d like, and tell us how you’re feeling about them?

[Longterm]

She also tried it on with her brothers wife.
IKR? I'm not talking about that.

Years ago I'm 99.9% she slept with someone whilst pregnant with our son.

2 times she had contraceptives removed without telling me.

When our daughter was young my wife was shouting at her for not getting her school shoes. I told her to leave her alone. She said "I'm f*****g sick of you and I'm sick of her dragging me down" I moved out that day, taking our daughter with me.

I think you get the point. I could talk about it all day, she has broke my ribs before too. So so much has gone on.

If you met my wife you would think there is nothing wrong with her, you would think she's lovely because that's the image she portrays but she is very, very dangerous.

Tell me your stories.

[Longterm]

Hi again JNChell, thank you for the compliment.
Btw I never used to say thank you to anyone who complimented me, it's a new thing for me that a counsellor told me to start.

Entitled? That's a whole new thread friend, maybe tomorrow .

My daughter told her to tell me or she would, she didn't have the balls so my daughter told me. My daughter had to convince me it was cheating, ridiculous right? She was also messaging a different guy I worked with and we had a row at work over it. She was never going to message him Again, she accused him of trying it on, he denied it. A few weeks later my daughter caught her messaging him Again and told me again. I swept it under the rug. The day I moved out she was asking him for sex. She lied to her family and said he was asking her to go for a drink. He met me and showed me the messages, he was telling her to work on our marriage, she said "I want you to touch me, then f** me" She has always denied this. I see what you mean in regards to my daughter but I always say the same, if she wasn't taking pictures and messaging other men besides her husband my daughter would not of found anything. I'm thankful my daughter spoke up.

I thought the family thing was wrong and no she will never change, I see that now.

No I'm not familiar with golden child and scapegoat.
The youngest is golden child though and I feel like the scapegoat .
I have always said my kids have done very well in regards to their brother, they have never took it out on him and that makes me very proud.
About 6yrs ago I was working afternoons and I got home and my wife's sister was there. She went mad at my wife because she had not cooked me any food. Pretty standard so it didn't bother me. Anyway I went in my shed and left them too it. About 10min later my wife came in and I said, were ***? She said she's gone home in a strop.
I was constantly trying to get the 2 of them to get on better so I phoned her sister the day after to see what had happened. Her sister was disgusted, she was berating my wife for not looking after me, her reply, "I only give a f** about me and ***" (youngest).

I'll say it Again, I could go on and on and on.

[Longterm]

I feel embarrassed to be honest, used, betrayed and stupid. You couldn't make this crap up.

[Ozzie101]

It sounds like you've been through a lot. And I understand how you feel. I, too, felt embarrassed, betrayed and stupid for not realizing earlier that my H had a problem.

About her coming onto other men, while being jealous of innocent interactions involving you and other women: Sounds like transference/projection to me. She turned her own behavior (which she may have felt ashamed and guilty for deep down) on you and blamed you for it. My H used to do that to me -- not with the opposite sex, but other things.

How old is your daughter? How is she doing through all of this?

[Longterm]

My daughter is 18.

I have really enjoyed going through all this stuff this week and I'm glad to say my mood has drastically improved, so I'm going to keep going.

I will make another thread tonight and the topic of this one will be focused on the kids, things they have dealt with and how they are currently.

I'm sorry if I bore some of you, I know I do waffle on at times, I don't mean to do it, there's just so much that has happened, continues to happen and I think it needs to be processed and released so to speak.

[Ozzie101]

It's very difficult to process things. That's one of the things this board is for, to help with that. So please keep posting.

I'm glad to hear your mood has improved!

[Longterm]

Her transference/projection is off the charts. I could also talk about this forever.

Since we have split every time I hear something I always say the same:

No, that's what she has said/done, not me.

She has done this to the kids too.

[Ozzie101]

That can be difficult for adults to deal with, let alone kids. I hope you're able to talk with them about it to help process it. (well, you or another caring adult)

[Longterm]

It has become like a defence mechanism for me and I realise it's unhealthy for me.

It leaves me confused and disorientated but that's the whole point right? Did I say that? Did I do that? Is there something wrong with me and everybody sees it but me?

They have started to tell me they know it's BS and to just ignore it.

I consider myself extremely lucky, her attempts at parental alienation have failed, I know guys that were not so lucky.

[Ozzie101]

That is fortunate. You're right. Many people have very different stories when it comes to the kids.

[JNChell]

It has become like a defence mechanism for me and I realise it's unhealthy for me.

It leaves me confused and disorientated but that's the whole point right? Did I say that? Did I do that? Is there something wrong with me and everybody sees it but me?

They have started to tell me they know it's BS and to just ignore it.

I consider myself extremely lucky, her attempts at parental alienation have failed, I know guys that were not so lucky.

This all sounds familiar to me. You have a ton of thoughts racing around in your mind. Your heart says stay, your mind says leave. It’s ok to have these feelings and thoughts. The important thing in times like these is to center yourself around you. Your anxiety is escalated. You’re hurt and confused. How can you calm down to the point where you can simply think with as little emotion as possible at this point? A bath, a walk, working out, etc.? Just a little distraction that makes space for you.

It sounds like you’ve been manipulated into doubting your reality. Listen to your gut. You know your reality. It’s talking to you now. Trust yourself and your feelings. You’ll find some relief there.

[Longterm]

Yes, I know you understand.

It feels like I am trapped within my own thought processes and I have no idea how to stop it. It is literally mental torture, severe emotional distress.

I can state right now that I have been emotional raped and this woman is no good for me, the things she has said and done are utterly disgusting coupled with the fact that there is no remorse or accountability. Straight from the off with these emails the thing that strikes me is that there has been no attempts to apologise to me or make amends, she wants me to help her with her problems, someone to talk to, that is all. I am just a tool to be used after 20yrs of looking after Her, I am nothing.

Then I switch to, what if she gets the right help? What if I can make her see what she has done? If I look after Her, her symptoms will decrease. I know she loves me, I know deep down she does. She needs me, Its my duty as her husband to help Her, it's not really her fault. I could go on.

It really is a battle between the ego (heart) and the brain and I need it to stop.

I will be spending time with my cousin again this weekend.

[Ozzie101]

What if I can make her see what she has done? If I look after Her, her symptoms will decrease.

I understand your thinking. But, you've been together a long time. Has she ever been able to see what she's done? You've looked after her for years. Have her symptoms decreased?

The truth is, until she really sees the problem, acknowledges the problem, and gets serious help (not just a once-a-week or twice-a-month counseling session but real, hard-core therapy), she will not improve. Nothing you do or say could make that happen until SHE decides it.

Enjoy your time with your cousin. Relax. Be good to yourself.

[once removed]

i second JNChell in suggesting that right now, the most important thing here is to work toward a centered approach.

i notice that you havent posted on the Bettering board in your time here. i would encourage you to learn the tools there. get a feel for the attitude and approach that is required to sustain what would always be a challenging relationship. you dont have to make any hard or fast decisions in order to do that. they will also be invaluable in the future; they are life skills that work with everyone.

Then I switch to, what if she gets the right help? What if I can make her see what she has done?

i think that this is not the consideration i would make in determining whether you should have a relationship with her or try to resolve things. making her see what she has done is not a rehabilitative approach; its not the ideal approach for detaching either. training others to be better people is what codependency is at its heart, and for a lot of us, its a dynamic that drew us into the relationship, and drew the relationship into unhealthy territory. additionally, driving home to her what she has done introduces shame; something people with BPD traits struggle mightily with, and something that damages relationships.

there is another approach, and another attitude. it would require a lot of strength, it would be an uphill battle, and there would be no guarantees. right now, shes in another relationship. even if that ended, and the two of you suddenly reunited, there would be significant challenges that cant be overstated. rehabilitating the relationship, if possible, would be a much longer game.

so what is the middle ground?

the middle ground is no longer participating in the dysfunction between the two of you. its getting along (the best you can) for the sake of peace, the fact that the two of you love each other and share a long history, and for the sake of your children. this requires strength and hard choices too, at a time that your world has been turned upside down, and you are hurting. the payoff is peace, sooner rather than later, and especially down the road.

this tool is the synthesis between our emotional mind and logical mind, and the ideal headspace to operate from in terms of making decisions: https://bpdfamily.com/content/triggering-and-mindfulness-and-wise-mind

[Longterm]

I guess I could say Yes, her symptoms have decreased previously.

When we were younger there was cheating going on like crazy and eventually I had enough and left. She immediately got with somebody else, had been on 2 dates, thought she was pregnant and he was moving in, IKR?

I got a new partner too and she basically destroyed that relationship and begged me back, ditching her bf in the process. This bit is key, she told me that she was going to make me fall in love with her again, was doing more around the house and was now enjoying having the kids. THINGS WERE BETTER for several years.

It gradually got worse with stress, she can't handle stress. Around 2 years before we split she had what I can only describe as a breakdown. She was constantly in bed to the point that I had to give up 2 jobs to look after the kids because she was incapable. The things she was doing/saying we're not normal, her decision making was very poor.

Is was at this time that I knew there was something seriously wrong. I tried to get her help and get her on meds. I knew that a few times she had stopped taking the meds stating she didn't need them. She slowly turned on me and the rest Is history. I think that she is confused and she cannot understand what is wrong with Her, in her head there has to be a person to blame, me being the one closest to her took the fall.

Imo she never properly recovered from this "breakdown" and it has gotten much much worse. My wife was stunning, I loved going out with Her, there was always guys looking and I loved catching them, it made me feel good. These days she looks like she's been on crystal meth. She is in an immense amount of emotional pain and this is my biggest problem. I have a huge amount of empathy for her and the urge to reach out is over powering. She stated in the last email that she needs someone to talk to and that person was always me. The chats we have had over the years and the support I have given her has been very solid and I think she needs that now more than ever.

[Longterm]

Hi again once removed.

Yes I hear you loud and clear. I will take a look at the lessons on the bettering board, thanks.

You are right in what you say, looking back it was always going to end this way and it was always going to be a dysfunctional process.
I know she does not understand and trying to explain to her doesn't help, I have tried doing this in the past and I have seen the shame of what you speak, I have seen her utterly disgusted in herself and have felt nothing but pity for her.

I have "trained" Her the entire r/s. This is another subject I could talk about all day. She is simply incapable of living an adult life in a productive way and I'm not trying to be insulting. Her lack of organisation/ awareness is obvious.

Even if her r/s ended I don't feel as though I could ever go there again. Here I have a golden opportunity to see Her, to help her and I don't want to do I? I think that's very important here. I think seeing her would cause me a huge amount of emotional pain. Maybe I need to do that, I don't know. You might have guessed I don't have many answers, I'm in a very very difficult situation and it's hard to know what to do for the best at times.

I understand what you are saying completely, since I have been in contact with her especially I feel like I have taken a step backwards and I need to go back to the happier place. I did this initially by ceasing all contact, arranging visitation with the kids themselves and arranging child maintenance externally. I became a piece of titanium and anything and everything bounced off me. This is why I'm pushing for divorce but unfortunately this is why she has upped her efforts to gain my attention. The kids and her family have been used by her to do this, probably that triangulation thing I read about.

She has not mailed today but I have come up with a plan I think is a step back to a more positive direction. At some point next week I am going to mail her and tell her that I want no more contact from Her, I'm unsure of how to word it but that's why I'm giving myself a week. I will then change my email. I will tell the kids I don't want them talking about her and I will tell the MIL the same.

Thanks for the link.

[once removed]

She has not mailed today but I have come up with a plan I think is a step back to a more positive direction. At some point next week I am going to mail her and tell her that I want no more contact from Her, I'm unsure of how to word it but that's why I'm giving myself a week. I will then change my email. I will tell the kids I don't want them talking about her and I will tell the MIL the same.

i would work out what you want to say and how you want to deliver it with the members...you can get some great feedback.

[Longterm]

Yes, that was my initial thought.

If she emails between now and then I'm just going to tell her I'm thinking about it and will get back to Her, then when I have thought about what I want to say I will forward that to her.

Nothing is going to change

Speaking to Cromwell the other day gave me hope, it sounds like he's in a really good place and I want a piece of that pie.

[Longterm]

Once removed.

I read the mindfulness link you posted.

I never knew it had a name but I have been doing this for quite sometime.

In the beginning I made a rule that I would wait 24hrs before responding to any communication from her. I found that once I saw or heard anything my normal response would be anger and I had to stop myself a number of times from biting. I don't think there was ever a time that I actually responded with anger and most times I never responded at all.

I can see that I have broken my own rules here in response to her nasty comments, becoming more mindfull.

Thank you.