More emails

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

So I just woke up (work nights) and I have 2 more emails from her.

I have not responded.

She is asking to meet up again. She said she needs someone to talk to and I was always that person. She said she understands if it's too painful for me.

I could help this woman so much, I know for a fact I could but my fixing mentality has gotten me into enough trouble.

I could break it all down but what's the point. She is clearly trying to use and manipulate me.

Straight off the bat, isn't this her bf's job? I tried to help her I really did but she blamed me for her mental health issues and then destroyed our family. Now she wants a coffee and someone to talk to?

It's like, forget what I've done, it doesn't matter, I want someone to talk to.

She doesn't understand that it DOES matter.

[Longterm]

So I just woke up (work nights) and I have 2 more emails from her.

I have not responded.

She is asking to meet up again. She said she needs someone to talk to and I was always that person. She said she understands if it's too painful for me.

I could help this woman so much, I know for a fact I could but my fixing mentality has gotten me into enough trouble.

I could break it all down but what's the point. She is clearly trying to use and manipulate me.

Straight off the bat, isn't this her bf's job? I tried to help her I really did but she blamed me for her mental health issues and then destroyed our family. Now she wants a coffee and someone to talk to?

It's like, forget what I've done, it doesn't matter, I want someone to talk to.

She doesn't understand that it DOES matter.

[Ozzie101]

What do you want to do? Respond? Ignore? Respond but decline?

[Longterm]

I honestly do not know.

It's mind boggling.

She claims I have mentally and physically abused her and our children, been taking cocaine for 5yrs, never gave her any money, was lazy etc, many things.

Why on God's green earth does she want to be anywhere near me, let alone confide in me?

The things this woman has said and done to me and my children is unbelievable, does she have not one ounce of guilt?

Why can she not say something like this:

I have treated you and the kids poorly, the things I have said and done have been appalling and I want you to know that I am truly sorry for the pain and suffering I have caused. I am planning on making drastic changes to my life and I want to for once show you the respect you deserve and apologise to your face.

It's just not going to happen.

She is a broken little girl and she simply does not understand, there is really nothing to work with here.

Right now I'm thinking of mailing back and saying thanks for the offer but I want to concentrate on ME now and the kids are my priority.

[Ozzie101]

It does boggle the mind. A pwBPD can be very confounding for someone who thinks in a more usual manner. No, she doesn't get it. And she likely never will. Often pwBPD do have an extremely strong sense of guilt -- but they also have major self-protection things that kick in that lead them to deny, ignore, forget, or project the blame onto someone else.

Given everything that's gone on, agreeing to a meeting would, likely, just keep the cycle going. If you want to be out, then going NC or declining any invitations to meet is probably the best option. I think the response you suggested is fine, just be aware you might trigger some verbal/virtual abuse and she may try to keep the cycle going.

I don't know what I'd do, to be honest.

[Longterm]

God damn it, she just emailed back saying:

Mom said it's maybe too painful for you.

What a b****.

I lost my mom when I was 21, barring this it was the worst period of my life. My ex has always referred to her mother as "mom".

I'm going to mom's.
I spoke to mom.
Mom's just called.

Etc, etc.

When we split this changed to MY mom.

I'm at my mom's etc.

That's some mind bending comment.

[Longterm]

I can't stop thinking about this.

She did mention meeting at a local market, they have a cafe there. I go here most days as it's on the way to work. Should I avoid going here now and shop elsewhere.

I'm saying that because if she mails again I'm going to put a stop to it and say, look I just wish to be left alone. I don't know how she will react to that. I'm thinking 1 of 2 things, sulking or anger and she might come to my town. I'm not saying she will but things have most definitely changed. She has gone from abusive to very nice and tbh I prefer it when she's angry, nicey nicey is not good.

[JNChell]

Hi again, Longterm. You’re agitated and emotional. That’s understandable. Many of us here were and still are. How do you feel about centering yourself around you and calming down? I’m happy to talk with you. I’ve been where you’re at.

[Longterm]

I think I need the dilemma to go away, by doing that I think it will help me calm down.

I was just talking with the guys at work and surprisingly they suggested to meet up with her. I didn't expect them to say that, the advice is normally to ignore.

So I don't know, either way I don't want her being nice to me, it's weird.

[JNChell]

You want the dilemma to go away. I completely understand that feeling. I could be wrong, but I’m hearing that you need some space from her messages currently. From your posts, it seems like you’re on the fence, or at least keeping yourself there because you’re confused and have no breathing room to sort this out for yourself. Are you familiar with boundaries?

Do the guys at work know about BPD? If not, I don’t suggest going into that with them. They won’t understand. Keep that subject where it belongs. There are many, many clinicians that don’t know anything about BPD. Be sure that you know who you’re talking to if you should decide to introduce it to the convo.

Your last statement is very telling. If her being nice to you is weird (uncomfortable), then is her being abusive comfortable, as in what you’re used to?

[Longterm]

Hi JNChell.

Yes I guess so, receiving messages makes me feel cornered because I know she is waiting for a response. The feeling I get when she does is horrible, tight chest, things like that. The message I got Tuesday (I think) made me visibly shake. She messaged a while back telling me not to ignore her. In my head I go through the process of thinking what I can do to make her go away. Me ignoring her like I did last year, that's what you mean by boundaries right? Putting things in place.

No they guys at work or anybody I have spoken to have never heard me mention BPD. When I was at my cousins last week she did say to me "She is narcassistic, I have always thought that but never said anything to you, you have gradually been beat down, why have you put up with it? She has treated you badly yet you try to protect Her, you need to understand that you are not her parent, she is like a child that never grew up, do you know what borderline is?" My cousin is a very switched on woman and knows what I am dealing with but I am reluctant to discuss it with anybody. I think people in general just think I'm struggling with a run of the mill break up but I'm not, this is something completely different, everybody close to her knows there is something very wrong. The guys at work said if I go meet her I should unload on her and tell her exactly what she has done to everybody. Her family will not give it her straight because I think they are fearful of her reaction. The MIL did say before that she is worried she would stop her seeing the youngest. Truth be told, we all just tip toe round her.

Yes, you see it.
It was not very often she would go a day without raising her voice. I don't know if I mentioned before but going to work was my release. I work 12hr shifts and most the time it is very solitary. Around 3am I would become very anxious and would begin walking up and down for no reason. My mate used to ask me what I was doing, I never realised I was doing it. It was the thought of going home. I would shower and go to bed but I never slept, she thought I did but I would pretend. She would normally begin her day by shouting and I could not sleep until she left the house. She would come home and have zero consideration for me, slamming doors etc to wake me up. I always woke up soaking wet with sweat. I would do my food prep for work and get the hell out of there.
Weekends consisted of me doing whatever she wanted for peace and quiet. Looking back it was an extremely unhealthy situation.
I know I waffle on but Yes, I am conditioned to deal with her in an angry state.
When she is nice I feel confused and simply don't know how to deal with it. When she was in her honeymoon period with her bf everybody found it much easier because she just ignored everyone. Since around June she has slowly beat me down and gradually sought more and more attention from me and this is what I struggle with.

There is ALWAYS a reason why she is nice, she uses this tactic to get what she wants, trying to figure out what she wants is difficult. I believe she does not want this divorce and so does everybody else but I am sticking to my guns.

The only way right now to stop this divorce is for her to leave her bf, go to her mother's for a minimum period of 1 year, cease drug/alcohol use, seek professional help, take responsibility/accountability for the things she has done whilst leaving me and the kids alone.

I think we all know I have more chance of winning the lottery.

I am not being left in limbo land.

[JNChell]

Ok, LT. As things stand, you don’t owe her a response. You owe yourself space to even consider giving her a response. These aren’t things to tell her, these are things to give you space. You need space my friend. I wouldn’t cut her off cold turkey, but tell her that you need space to think. That’s a boundary. When she rebuts, don’t tell her that you’re setting boundaries. Be an oak.

Boundaries aren’t meant to ignore someone nor to punish them. Boundaries are meant to protect you and your values. You have your boundaries and what is bundled inside of them, she has her set of ethics and values. Boundaries are about self preservation, not punishment.

[Longterm]

My cousin tried to explain this kind of stuff to me last week but I don't get it, she thinks I don't know what boundaries are?

I ignore her most of the time because I feel like she is trying to bully me, are you saying this is not a boundary? That's me stopping her from treating me like crap, are you saying this is unhealthy?

I don't understand how I don't owe her a response? She has asked to see and talk to me about her issues. Is the normal response not to answer the question?

I do need space Yes, my idea of space is her leaving me alone.

Now you have me confused . Are you saying not to email Her?

[JNChell]

Hang tight. I’m going to gather you some info on boundaries.

[JNChell]

https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

Read, bro.

[JNChell]

You got advice on whether to email her or not. That decision is up to you.

[Longterm]

Thanks JNChell, I don't know what to do but I need to do something. I may just meet her just to see what she wants.

I'm going to that link now

[JNChell]

Hold on. I know what link you’re speaking of. Are you receiving all kinds of direction on what to do?

[Longterm]

Yes I went to the link on boundaries. Very interesting stuff and it reminds me of what a therapist told me last year.

"You have great insight and self awareness...except for when it comes to her"

She simply has no moral code, I guess she does have boundaries :

Nobody can have a go at me
Everybody must love me
Everybody should please me
I do nothing for nobody

Again, I could go on , every attempt at her defending her boundaries ends in anger haha

I believe I have set many boundaries with her in the past, she just fails to respect them. This leads me to frustration and eventually shutting down/ceasing communication with her.

I wouldn't say I am receiving all kinds of direction no. Most people I know think she is trying to come back in a rather unethical way and are saying either have it out with her or block/delete/ignore. Her family want her to get back together with me but I know their motives. They never had any issues with her whilst she was with me, I was sitting on Pandoras box and any/all issues were fixed by me. I protected and defended her from harm, in her family's eyes, she could do no wrong. They see her very differently now Lol and can't deal with Her, that would very much like for me to "fix" her

[JNChell]

That all makes sense. I can relate to your post. Forgive me if I’ve overlooked your saying so, but are you currently in therapy? It truly is helpful being connected with a therapist that gets where we’re at and is able to hear us. You’ve mentioned becoming visibly shaky and triggered when she tries to contact you. I’m not a professional, but this sounds like anxiety. I have the same sensations in certain circumstances. Do you think that setting proper boundaries may help to alleviate your anxiety?

"You have great insight and self awareness...except for when it comes to her"

This is an interesting observation by what your former (?) therapist told you. Here’s another link. You can read it if you’d like to. It’s about being enmeshed with a pwBPD.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=111772.0

Have you felt like you’ve lost a part of yourself while trying to make things work with her? If so, how has that left you feeling?

I believe I have set many boundaries with her in the past, she just fails to respect them. This leads me to frustration and eventually shutting down/ceasing communication with her.

Boundaries are hard to put into place at first. The important thing is to know where we are coming from when we attempt to set them. Are we punishing them, or are we protecting ourselves and our values? pwBPD don’t like boundaries, but what they like or dislike isn’t our responsibility. Our responsibility, with respect to this dynamic, is our own well being. Have you made your boundaries clear to her? Here’s an example.

If you email me in a hostile way, I will not respond. The key to boundaries is to stick to what you’ve put into place. Initially, there will be pushback. She’ll amp up her efforts to get a response. Just like a toddler, but you have to hold strong to your boundary. She’ll eventually get it. Make sense?

Most people I know think she is trying to come back in a rather unethical way and are saying either have it out with her or block/delete/ignore.

Maybe neither of these routes is the best way to go. Appreciate the feedback from the people that care about you, but understand that they simply don’t know what you’re dealing with. If one of them did, it would be a one on one OMG moment. They love you, they’ve just never been through what you are currently dealing with. I suggest utilizing the tools that are available here to safely distance yourself from her at a reasonable speed considering the circumstances.

Pressure from her family on you is irrelevant. That’s her family and your pwBPD is trying to triangulate you with her and them to meet her needs. Here’s one more link on that. Brother, this chaos will never end with her. She needs to first, realize that she has a problem. Second, accept it and all that she’s done. Third, get help for it. And Fourth, commit and follow through with long term therapy. You know her best. Is she capable of doing these things?

https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

This is hard stuff to sift through. We’re here to walk with you as you make your way.

[Longterm]

Hi JNChell.

I am not currently in therapy no although I will be going back, I'm on a very long waiting list. I was thinking of maybe going private but it all boils down to cash, I am fairly well paid for my area but I'm a single dad and all my funds ate concentrated on saving right now.

Yes I'm aware it's anxiety, I've had it for years following my work accident. I was diagnosed with PTSD too and did some CBT therapy. I don't believe setting boundaries will alleviate my anxiety no. I did do this in the beginning like I said. I told her that she would either talk to me in a respectful way or she would simply not talk to me at all. I told her I would only discuss 3 things, money - kids - divorce. Emails always started off nicely but with unrealistic/unreasonable demands. I would then give a response in a respectful way without any anger or sarcasm and she would then berate/abuse me. I would then ignore her until the next time and it became a rinse and repeat cycle. I have blocked many emails off her but then she started to use others. A good example is the kids, I have told her many times that it is unfair for her to use them in this way and it has to stop. She just doesn't care and that is how we got to the point where I refused contact. I am not being disrespected by Her, it's as simple as that.
The happiest I have been is when I have been in NC. There is no denying that and my problems have resurfaced since I have been talking to her. This is why I feel it's important for me to do it again whilst going back to therapy and doing more work on ME to become stronger.

Yes, in my life I know when people are taking the p1ss and attempting to use me. I had to be convinced my ex was selfish and that her behaviour was poor, I used to make up excuses for her behaviour and protect her. I still do it to a degree but for the best part I do see her for who she is.

Thanks for that link, some really interesting stuff again. I do have a need to please others to feel good about myself and I do understand that this is unhealthy but it is something I have been working on. I get a lot of what I need from my kids, being a parent is something I really enjoy, helping them with any/all issues makes me feel important. I don't think in this is example that I am being massively unhealthy, they know they can rely on me and nothing will ever change there, I see that as being my job and my sole purpose right now. I have never had issues making friends but I am the kind of guy that will do anything for anybody, through therapy I can see that some friends/family have exploited me in the past and I have formed new friendships that are based on mutual gains. The people who are around me right now know I will do anything for them but I also know they would do anything for me and that is important.

In many ways I guess I did lose a part of myself. I was oppressed and controlled, my feelings did not matter and I lost the will to fight for them, I gave up, I surrendered my soul. It made me feel unloved, unlovable and worthless. She nailed it.

You said:
Are we punishing them, or are we protecting ourselves and our values?

It is most definitely the latter. She has stated many times that I am a child that needs to grow up and get along because we have children. I see this as her attempts to manipulate me. I have proved that I do not need to communicate with her to have a good relationship with the children which is of upmost importance to me. My therapist told me I need to make a stand and say "no more". I have looked into this in the past and there is not a court in the land that would force me to communicate with her in order to see my youngest. I do not want you to think that I have not tried to co parent or get along with Her, there was absolutely no anger from me at the start, I was relieved to be away from her. I sorted out money externally because it was causing problems and I will not discuss this topic with her now. In regards to the kids, we organised a pick up/drop off point and times, she was NEVER on time, it was simply not a priority so I took her out of the equation. Her response to this was sporadically to stop me seeing them culminating with a 5 month period where I never saw them, she would punish them for contacting me and this happened many times. She knows I'm saving and money is tight at the moment but in 5 weeks saving will be finished and I will be looking to move. I have stated very clearly that if she stops my youngest seeing his dad at any point in the future I will be getting a court order, there will be no more chances given, she literally has nothing on me to justify refusal of access. I don't care how much it costs me, I will find the money.
I know I waffle on but there are many reasons that I went NC and there was many things that I tried before I did it. It all boiled down to: do I find this treatment acceptable? Do I feel like this is working? Can I improve this situation? If so, how? Is this affecting the kids? To try and have an adult relationship with a child is folly and she will never "get it". I have to protect myself and those I care about.

I still have not emailed her back but I think having it out with her is just plain stupid, I don't see anyone benefiting there. I am going to have an in-depth look in the tools here and have a really good think about how to proceed this week. Right now? Cut her dead, block all contact, I was happier that way. I can see the error of my own ways. What I stuck to religiously worked but I have fallen off the wagon.

Yes, most don't understand what I'm dealing with but they saw me in the depths of despair, and then they saw the confidence and change that occurred once I went NC. They don't want me to feel this way and I appreciate their concern.

Yes, pressure from her family is irrelevant. I know what everybody wants. Her family hate her bf and they want ME to save the day. My ex wants me to "fight" for her to show my loyalty and commitment, her mom told me this today. I mean what do I even say to that? She is not getting what she needs from her bf but will stay with him because it's somewhere to live whilst I sweep her off her feet and offer her to live with me? I will get no apology, accept that everything was my fault and I will promise to be a good boy JUST to have her in my life? No chance .

You are Right, it will never end and for me it's all about getting back on the wagon and getting the NC back in place because it worked for ME.

You said:
She needs to first, realize that she has a problem. Second, accept it and all that she’s done. Third, get help for it. And Fourth, commit and follow through with long term therapy. You know her best. Is she capable of doing these things? 

This is both of our problems. I don't think she believes there to be a problem here, there has and will be no apology, not even for the kids. I CANNOT and WILL NOT accept that. She is not capable of change or personal growth and this is why the only way to move forward for me and the kids is to move forward whilst concentrating on what WE want. This may sound harsh but without an apology there really is nothing to work with here.

[Longterm]

I think that another thing to note is that I do not need her.

It's not like I moved and was suddenly panicking and really unsure of how to look after myself. I did my own washing and things like that. Where I did struggle was with finances, all wages went to her bank account, she would give me "pocket money" hahaha. I didn't even have my own bank account, I do now along with 6 savings accounts with various banks. I really enjoy money management and It's something I have become good at.

The biggest thing I noticed when I moved was the calmness. There was nobody shouting and nobody telling me what to do, honestly it was/is awesome.

I work all week and spend time with the kids weekends. I have many hobbies/interests and I can honestly say life is pretty good, I have a lot going for me.

I still do have a family, yes it's broken and it's not ideal but what did I actually lose? I got absolutely nothing from that relationship. I gave and I gave and I gave.

The only aspect I dislike is dealing with the ex, but I don't have to. Meeting/talking to her has absolutely nothing to do with me but it's all about what I can do for Her, she has no interest in doing anything for me.

Do I accept that? NO

[JNChell]

So, it’s safe to say that you’ll not be meeting with her? It’s over?

[Longterm]

No, I will not be meeting with her.

It has always been over, but deep down I always knew that she would come back. I said this right from the word go. To begin with my name was mud and she was so "happy", there was other things her mom said today but there is no point in discussing it.

I have always thought that my biggest problem would be to mentally prepare myself against her return. I don't know how I knew this or other things but there has been so much that fell into place once I began my search for answers.

Although I am not going to reconcile it is very important for me to understand that I have failed to defend myself, THIS IS KEY because I know this is not over and there will be more attempts, there is simply too much history and she just had it too good with me.

I think firstly I need to get this email out of the way. Then strict NC.

Therapy is very important right now, I may sit down and see what I can do with money, if not I can try and find ways to get seen sooner.

I think I'm going to see my Dr and talk to him about my current anxiety and see what he thinks. I don't really want meds but I will take his advice, at the very least he could contact counselling for me.

I was looking online with my cousin and she suggested we look up CODA groups. There is one fairly local to me and it would appear to just be a drop in kind of arrangement so I'm going to contact them on Monday and see what they say.

This is my plan.

I need to become stronger to be able to resist her and deal with her crap without melting. That is what I see.

5 weeks and I will be starting the moving process and things will be so much better for me and the kids. We have a lot of plans and I've not really gone into too much detail but believe me, there is much to look forward to.

[JNChell]

Man, you haven’t failed anything. You’re simply trying to figure this out. About her attempts. Isn’t she living with another man? Think about the other guy for a minute. He’ll be you soon enough.

How are you feeling right now?

[Longterm]

I feel I have failed because I allowed her to invade my headspace and I promised myself it would not happen again.

The other guy? Not my problem. She has either beaten him down to the point where she has no respect for him thus finding it acceptable to do what she's (trying) to do or he just won't put up with her crap. Like I said a lot was said today but I need to shift the focus back to US. Me and the kids.

I am worried for the little guy because he could end up moving again etc and it's not fair on him. Me and the kids have had to deal with the dysfunctional end of that kind of relationship but he's on his 2nd time round now and that's not good for him.

It appears that the r/s has already got to the "crisis" point but has taken a far shorter period of time to get There, I was told this would happen. If she finds it acceptable to do what she is (trying) to do I can guarantee that she is more than likely on the lookout for the "next". A lot could happen now and unfortunately for my son I have no control over it. I can just provide him with a safe place and that's what I intend to do.

I feel very determined.

[JNChell]

Longterm, how are you feeling tonight?

[Longterm]

I feel good

[Longterm]

Hmm ok, the rest of my message disappeared?

I said it will only be a matter of time until she emails again so I'm going to get thinking about what I want to say.

I feel as though I need to be direct and to the point but it makes no odds, her response will be anger.

Much to ponder.

[once removed]

My cousin tried to explain this kind of stuff to me last week but I don't get it, she thinks I don't know what boundaries are?

I ignore her most of the time because I feel like she is trying to bully me, are you saying this is not a boundary? That's me stopping her from treating me like crap, are you saying this is unhealthy?

boundaries, conceptually, makes more sense when we think of it as a lifestyle that reflects our values, rather than a quick fix to solve a conflict with someone.

so often, we misinterpret this concept in a way that says "this person is being difficult with me, so i will use boundaries".

The need for better “boundaries” is advice often given when someone complains about how another person has been treating them.

“Help, my girlfriend isn’t treating me well. Now she is giving me the silent treatment.”

“Well, friend, you need to set some boundaries”.

“You’re right, I have bad boundaries.”

From this discussion one might believe that if we are angry and say "no more" or even walk out that our girlfriend (or other loved one) will change their ways and all will be well. That's not what this is about.

 
The Idea of "Setting Boundaries" is Misleading

The terminology of "setting boundaries" is misleading and often mistaken to mean "giving an ultimatum." It is true that issuing ultimatums can be part of this life skill and at times, very necessary, however it's only one aspect of this life skill.

When we speak of the boundaries we are really speaking about our personal values and our need to get them in focus and live with more conviction. This is a lifestyle, not a quick fix to an interpersonal squabble.

This is an important point that is often overlooked.

remember what i said about trying to train other people in how to be, and how to treat us. that, in essence, suggests blurry boundaries.