She shattered two storm doors last night part 2

[stolencrumbs]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=335081.0

Thanks for the responses. Even though I know this is not "normal," I think I often lose sight of just how bad things are. It is helpful to just have some perspective on that. Things are really messed up. My natural response to pretty much everything in my life is to shrug and think "everything's fine, and if it's not, it will be." But things are not fine, and they're not going to be without some drastic change. I need to keep convincing myself of that.  

I think I said months and months ago that it seemed like all roads were leading to calling 911. I guess that still seems true. I still don't have much confidence in that helping very much, but she absolutely needs help, and it doesn't seem she's going to get it any other way. And in addition to her life, I need to protect my dogs, my house, and myself.

I have an appointment with my T on Tuesday. Seems unlikely that I'll make it that far without another blowup/meltdown.

[babyducks]

I'm very sorry you are going through this and that your wife is too.   This is incredibly difficult stuff.

Where is your thinking about this today?

There is a good bit of discussion in one of my threads about my hesitation to call 911. I am prepared to do that when she threatens suicide or to burn the house down. I had not prepared myself for that for nights like last night. I'm working on adjusting my threshold for doing that.

Your wife is seriously mentally ill and unable to regulate her behaviors      Her physical (spinal fluid/ cribriform plate) illness could be exacerbating her mental illness and vice versa.    Where is your threshold for involving medical professionals and how would that look for you?   Do you have your wife's health care proxy?  Her power of attorney?   Do you share medical doctors?   

  The main thing I feel at the moment is that I don't want to do anything in response to demands, threats, and property destruction. In addition to reinforcing the wrong things, it just feels awful. Nothing I would possibly do under these circumstances would feel genuine or authentic. I can't even really begin to think about what *I* think is reasonable or appropriate for me to do.   

I can understand why you would have trouble identifying reasonable or appropriate actions.      No one can think clearly when in the middle of a crisis, and you have been living inside one for a long time.

Here is what I think:

I think it is perfectly reasonable to call 911 when she is smashing things, explain your wife has mental health issues and ask for a wellness check.

I think it is perfectly reasonable to call your therapist and explain that your wife is in crisis, or experiencing a break down of some sort and you need emergency advice on immediate action.

I think it perfectly reasonable to forward the email you posted here to your therapist, and share text and other messages with mental health professionals.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to contact your wife's therapist and explain that you respect confidentiality and boundaries but you are concerned about your wife's safety and the safety of the people around her.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to reach out to your wife's family and without betraying a confidence suggest that she could use some additional support right now and ask for them to contact her.

I agree with many of the other posters here.     The level of risk of a catastrophic event is too high.    It's too high.   An intervention is warranted.     Your therapist said that the chances of you coming out of this 'the nice guy' are zero.   I agree.

[babyducks]

But things are not fine, and they're not going to be without some drastic change. I need to keep convincing myself of that.  

we tend to think that the dysfunction, the chaotic behavior,  the conflict will stay static,  that we will have time to figure things out.    to manage things comfortably.

this was not my experience.   for me,  the chaos flashed over to incredibly dangerous in the matter of minutes.    seconds actually.

I am not saying what I experienced will happen with you also.   what I am saying is that you may not have the luxury of convincing yourself.

[Turkish]

Are you safe? 

Maybe? No?

Calling 911 is a serious escalation that can't be taken back.  I thought about it when my ex was pregnant with our daughter and was suicidal.  It may be necessary,  but you need a plan for the aftermath. 

Do you have a safety plan?  Without a plan,  you are at risk. She will be seriously shamed.  You may not want to press charges,  and she will escalate the violence. 

What Do you think?

[Notwendy]

I agree with Turkish- and understand your hesitancy to make the call.

I think it would be perceived as a huge betrayal. As her loved one/rescuer, it is important to her that you buy into her thinking- are with her on that. This doesn't mean it's in her or your best interest, but it's a part of the situation. Calling 911 breaks this dual thinking- it exposes her and this is a big shame trigger.

When the situation becomes dangerous, then one has to consider the call but there will be a cost to that, potential escalation and retaliation. There's also the cost of not doing it. Neither is an easy decision. I guess you have to choose the one you want to deal with.

[formflier]

I agree that calling is an escalation and can't be taken back. 

I've called 911 "on my wife" and I've also reported her to social services.  ALL were seen as big betrayals and ALL calls changed behavior.

There was big pressure on me to "admit" I was wrong..shouldn't have done it..etc etc. 

I've never backed down or apologized. 

I think if I had of backed down that behavior change would have been much less.

So...I will suggest that there is no way to get big behavior change (at this point) without her feeling betrayal. 

She already feels somewhat betrayed you don't "buy into" her worldview. 

I don't want to speak for Turkish...but I would want you to be "aware" and "ready" for the fallout.  I would not advise you to avoid calling because of what is coming.

Hang in there

FF

[empath]

SC, I have a dear friend who would remind me that there's not that much difference between suicide and homicide and that I needed to be safe. What is your safety plan?

I was talking with my d14 last night about the time when she told someone what her dad did. She remembered when he came and talked with her; she felt like she was in trouble and did something bad. He blamed her for telling someone. I had to tell more people, so he blamed me, too. He has accused me of conspiring with the authorities since then.

But...  When he had a major dysregulation more recently, he made a different choice about what to do with the feelings.

[Cat Familiar]

When she was shattering those storm doors, could she have been observed by neighbors? That would be the ideal situation for authorities to be called. If a sheriff was patrolling the neighborhood and witnessed that, most likely the logical assumption would be that it was a burglary.

Do you have a trustworthy neighbor who could call 911 should your wife start damaging the house again?

[Red5]

SC, I can certainly empathize with a great degree of what you are experiencing... when pw/BPD “checks out” and starts smashing things up around the house...  both inside and out... and starts making all kinds of outrageous threats... Man, I tell you... that is when we “nons” have to really have it together... the term “mindfulness”... it’s a split second mental checklists... are they going to hurt themselves... the kids... the pets... “me”... is there anyone else seeing this too... ok, do I leave, stay, or try to stop it (her)... yeah Brother, I’ve been there too.

In both my previous marriage and as well this one... suicidal threats, to outright attempts... ranting and raging... smashing things up, attacking an object, a car, “me”... the kids... scary stuff...

I’m with the others, you may very well reach that rubicon... and you will call 911, and once you do, and LEO responds... the “genie is out of the bottle”... so you need to understand the ramifications... the subsequent chain of events that will happen next, mechanically... unstopable...

I’ll add one more thing... I think you should consider... woman on man physical abuse is real, it happens... it did to me, so when LEO makes contact, there are several senarios that can happen... one you need to be aware of, is that LEO will take her side...’no matter’ the scene... there are protocol they follow.

There is some reading deep down in the links about some of these type senarios... here is the link: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=87480.0

What am I trying to say, be careful how to deal with your wife, yes her behavior is “off the rails”... and suicidal ideations are extremely serious... but you MUST be prepared if you call 911, as this sets forth an unstopable chain of events... and rigid protocol... you MUST be prepared for what will happen next.

Do Red5 a favor and read that link... I think Skip wrote that... it sure got my attention...

These BPD behaviors... as we all know can get extremely out of control, and the collateral damage can be irreversible... and permanent... keep this in your forefront thinking process as you navigate this marriage dysfunction with your wife...

“Keep your head about you SC”... hang in there,

Keep posting... best regards SC,

Red5  

[AskingWhy]

When my uBPD H starts breaking things, I tell him I might call 911. Then he says, "You do and it's over between us."

I think it would be a turning point for me, then, to call 911. I would have a police report and be able to get a protective order, making it easy for me to file for divorce. 

pwBPD are unstable and dysregulate, acting out regardless of the feelings or safety of others.  My H scares the pets and they scatter in the house.  When my elderly mother with dementia was staying with us, she was weeping because she thought H was angry over her stay when, in fact, he was angry at me.  Then H raged at me and screamed, "When I am angry, I don't care who hears!"

Of course, he does his best to act like a nice man in front of his adult children, solicitous to me as if a role model for his son (a college drop out, drug addict and often homeless) and his daughters.  All of his children are in some spectrum of NPD and BPD themselves.

[stolencrumbs]

I appreciate the concern for my safety. I don't *feel* unsafe, but the little man in my head who is supposed to be on the lookout for danger has been on break for most of my life. My wife has threatened two different times to make DV allegations against me if I call 911. So that worries me a bit. If I call the police, my goal is only to get a mental health evaluation. I don't plan on being there if I make the call. I'm not sure what happens after I do that. I think it is definitely an escalation that could turn out really badly. I have looked at "safety plans." I'm not sure what else I can do. I spoke with a DV counselor about a month ago (maybe longer), and she suggested an order of protection that at least protects the dogs and the property. I don't want her out of the house and I don't want to prevent contact. I still hope it doesn't come to that. I hope I don't have to make the call at all.

Things have been quieter over the weekend. Well, not quieter, but nothing's been broken. Her position appears to have solidified. According to her, I excluded her and treated her like she doesn't exist this past weekend when my parents visited. She was really hurt by this. She has told me that I needed to make amends and make a gesture to make things right. I have not done that. This tells her everything she needs to know about how I feel about her, and it is incomprehensible and unforgivable that I would let a week go by without trying to make things better. So she is done because I can't humble myself to even try to heal her heart. I think that is roughly her version of things.

I was not trying to be in some standoff or trying to refuse to do something, but I guess that's where I am. I'm trying to see the bigger picture. I feel like my trying to do something to "heal her heart" just keeps us in the same pattern. She gets hurt, lashes out, gets destructive, berates me, etc. and then I try to make it better somehow. If I succeed at righting the most recent wrong, we're just back to a baseline of immense dysfunction, and nothing has really changed. It'll happen again. It has been happening for a long time. So I now feel like I am refusing to do anything. The evidence is in on what we have been doing. It doesn't work. I don't know if not doing anything works. I'm not sure what "working" even looks like. I just know I want out of the cycle of conflict. I do feel guilty. I feel like I should be doing something. But when I look at the bigger picture, I don't really see how that helps.

[stolencrumbs]

When she was shattering those storm doors, could she have been observed by neighbors? That would be the ideal situation for authorities to be called. If a sheriff was patrolling the neighborhood and witnessed that, most likely the logical assumption would be that it was a burglary.

Do you have a trustworthy neighbor who could call 911 should your wife start damaging the house again?

This would be ideal. In our old neighborhood, I'm certain someone would have intervened by now, if not for the crying, then for the shattered glass. Lots were small and neighbors were close, both physically and socially. Our current neighborhood is not like that. Lots are large, houses sit way off the road, there are lots of fences and trees to screen things, and all of our immediate neighbors have moved in since I've been out of the house. I don't really know them at all.

[Cat Familiar]

You’ve been in a multi year pattern of coping with her mental illness. It appears at best, you spend most of your time away from her and merely check in to do repairs on things she’s damaged, visit with her and check on the dogs.

She tells you that she is a hostage in the house, that your relationship is not repairable since you “disrespected” her by visiting with your parents for a few hours.

If she’s that miserable and wants to end the relationship, why not give her what she wants?

It seems that in all of your writings, you never talk about what you want. It’s all about coping with your wife’s mental illness.

Do you want to be in this relationship, as it is?

Are you holding out hope that she might somehow improve?

Can you be prepared to tolerate more of the same for the next 10 years? The next 20 years? The next 40 years?

[GaGrl]

Your wife is asking you to do something that is impossible -- to heal her heart. What she is asking is for you to soothe her foil g emotions, because she cannot self-soothe. You can no more permanently heal her heart than you  can heal a cut on her skin.

You should not apologize or make amends for actions that you did not commit or that were not harmful in and of themselves.

What you are seeing now is  a) extinction bursts, and b) attempts to repeat threats or manipulations that worked in the past.

[AskingWhy]

I appreciate the concern for my safety. I don't *feel* unsafe, but the little man in my head who is supposed to be on the lookout for danger has been on break for most of my life. My wife has threatened two different times to make DV allegations against me if I call 911.

As Red5 noted, women have the benefit of the doubt when it comes to DV allegations.  Your W knows this.  It's the culture of the times, and statistically, more women are victims of dangerous abuse than men.

When my uBPD H dysregulated and broke furniture and punched holes in walls and doors, I eventually asked police to come and make a report.  It was a non emergency call.  The two young, male police officers shrugged at me even when shown the holes and yet made a report, so I have a case number in the event H decides to file for divorce.  Can a small woman of slight build put her fist through dry wall?  Really?  (Over the last 10 years of marriage, H makes at least monthly threats to leave me.)

pwBPD are unreasonable and volatile and, quite frankly, quite scary at times.

What you describe is the metaphor of the boiled frog.  The frog stays in the saucepan when the water is cool, and then as the temperature is slowly raised, allowed itself to be boiled to death.    You don't see danger coming until it overcomes you. 

I agree with Red5 that a call to 911 is the point of no return.  Be aware of this should you consider this.

But as Cat pointed out, now that know the dynamics at play, do you really want to be the punching bag (emotionally or physically) of a woman who dysregulates like this?

[Enabler]

I don't know anything about the protocol but is there anyway of creating a log or a file of incidences with the police? You have some photographic evidence and emails etc. At least that way someone at the local station will have a bit of the picture before your wife comes and starts throwing accusations around which detract from the actual situation.

Just a thought.

Enabler

[Cat Familiar]

How are things today, stolencrumbs?

[boatingwoman]

At this point, I would be discreetly recording any interactions with her that are on the phone or in person.

[stolencrumbs]

How are things today, stolencrumbs?

Thanks, Cat.

Not good. Nothing really new or worse, but not good. I haven't seen her this week. It's been almost a month since I've seen her, except for the car incident when my parents were here. I'm getting texts and phone calls every night. The gist is the same. I'm not doing anything. I'm cruel. I'm a coward. I'm a monster. etc. Now she is telling me she is having panic attacks. She tells me I'm stubborn and foolish and nothing good is going to come from whatever I'm doing, or not doing. Incomprehensible. That's the word she is using over and over again. My not doing anything is incomprehensible. What I have done is ask to see her every day. I've asked to talk with her. I've acknowledged how hurt she is. I have apologized for what I can apologize for (probably more than I should). I don't know. I'm managing, I suppose. Trying not to feel like the monster she tells me I am. A good friend of mine is coming to visit tomorrow. Who knows what she'll do with that. She does know about it. If this is an extinction burst, it's one long extinction burst.

[Red5]

Hey there Stolen,

A good friend of mine is coming to visit tomorrow. Who knows what she'll do with that. She does know about it. If this is an extinction burst, it's one long extinction burst.

No, I don’t see it as “extinction burst’... as I read your thread... to me it’s one very long “projection”...

She can’t handle her emotions...’feelings equal facts... so she is projectile projecting onto you non stop.

A projection barrage of sorts...

She seems to be in a now constant spiral... seems any attempt by you for “normalcy”’is immediately destroyed...

Keep posting Stolen, hang in there Man,

I’ve seen my wife one time in four months...’we txt a little about whatever... like her brother in laws truck engine blowing up... hmmmm,

Red5

[stolencrumbs]

Man, I’d take a truck engine text right now. 

[Red5]

Man, I’d take a truck engine text right now. 

Dude !

If it ain’t Victors damn Ford... then it’s moms roof (mil)... or her idiot nephew lost his job... or did you do your taxes yet... what where you doing in New York... did your daughters bf put in for that job... have you finished the painting and trim yet... you need to ______...

I need you to let me barrow the lawn mower... did you haul off that old tractor yet... I’m buying a house... what do you think about this - that - or the other...

Did my mom (mil) call you?... all kinds of stupid stuff...

But she won’t really talk about “us”... and when she does she wants to know all about what me and “T” talk about... but she refuses to go to any therapy... and in the same breath she says .. “I know I’ve got anger issues... I’ve been like this my whole life... and it’s getting worse”...

Meanwhile... she tells me to “keep working on myself”...

We’ve been sepsrates since 1 December...

I hate the smell of caulk ...

I’ve half a mind to put up pine beadboard wainscot and stain it all dark cherry !

Why oh’why my Brother do we put up with all this BS...

I’m fifty three now... only so many flight hours left on this old airframe of mine...

You hang in the Stolencrumbs !

You’re a pretty tough ole’ boy !

Best Regards !

Red5

[I Am Redeemed]

The repeated use of "incomprehensible" caught my attention.

It probably is. She can't wrap her head around it. She's yanked out every dysfunctional tool in her toolbox (blame, FOG, suicidal ideation, showing up to crash your visit, driving recklessly with you in the car, and smashing the storm doors), and none of it is getting her what she wants, what she thinks she needs to make the bad feelings stop. She is used to successfully getting you to take responsibility for her feelings, but you are not buying into that this time. So yeah, she probably is panicking. Her strategies are no longer gaining the desired result, and she probably doesn't know what other options there are.

[Red5]

^Redeemed^

Is “dead on target” up there... wow!

Exactly !

Red5

[Cat Familiar]

So how are you feeling, stolencrumbs? Even though you are accustomed to dealing with her disordered emotions, this has got to be a lot to handle.

[stolencrumbs]

Redeemed, that sounds right to me. Or I hope that's right. But obviously I can't talk to her about that. So I just...wait? Hope she figures it out? I guess that's what I'm doing.

Cat, one of these days I think I'll get to exhale and figure out what and how I feel. In the meantime, I just keep my head down and keep trying to move forward. My T had an emergency this week and had to cancel our appointment. It's rescheduled for Monday. I'm just working, watching some basketball, spending time at my usual haunts, and trying to weather the nightly storms. I could be better, but I could also be worse. Fair to middlin', I suppose. 

[formflier]

SC

Catching up on your story.

Why not make a "gesture" to "make her feel included".

Invite your family back...and invite your wife to plan a couple of events..and then you plan a couple of events that she is invited to.

The key is that you have placed this in her hands...  "We're available for whatever you wish to do after noon on Saturday".  Then..."We're planning on checking out the new brunch place on Sunday and would love for you to join us."

What does this do?  Limit debate on the past...give her choices and responsibility for the future.  Then don't save her from her choices.

Thoughts?

FF